Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Pentaoku]

You're basing your assumption that Ivysaur is a chick from some random anime?

Also, I don't care what Sakurai says Ivysaur is.

HE is a dude.

*presents evidence*

1) His voice IN BRAWL is very manly....males can get away with high voices, but females cannot with deep voices....he's clearly a guy.

2) Whenever I use his side-taunt, I always yell out "LOOK AT MA BAAAALLLLZ".

Ivysaur's voice in the Japanese version of Brawl is pretty feminine... otherwise it'd be weird to have Ivysaur as a female in those "Dango" videos.

 

[Deleted member]

Ivysaur used to be a she, but with today's technology is a he. Thats why in the old anime she sounded like a she, but in brawl, he is a he.... mmhmm

 

[BDawgPHD]

Ivysaur is male. End of story.

Now that it's settled, we must change the world. JOIN THE "IVYSAUR IS A DUDE" COALITION!!!

 

[TehBo49]

Well, if you want to get technical about Ivysaur's gender, because it stands with its head near the ground (as opposed to holding it up), it's technically a he. But I really don't care what he/she/it is.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

it's not even a real animal. who HONESTLY thinks this is an important discussion?

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

ok enough about ivys gender, what do people think about DK as far as his placement goes?

 

[BDawgPHD]

ok enough about ivys gender, what do people think about DK as far as his placement goes?

IVYSAUR HAS A *****!!!!!

Oh.....DK is pretty **** high, likely high tier at least. He has monstrous range in all of his attacks on the ground and some in the air, his uair and bair are each both deadly and quick, his dair is great for both counterattacks against juggling and as a gimping attack, he's got good grabs and grab range (not sure about the grab range), and he's got a decent recovery that's augmented by the fact that he's a heavyweight and that the airdodging system favors him defensively.

Oh, and because of his monstrous range, the airdodging system doesn't hinder his aerial game.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

Yeah i personally love dk and have been awesome with him since sb64 i think he has been underrated for a while.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Yeah i personally love dk and have been awesome with him since sb64 i think he has been underrated for a while.

I mained him in 64 before I came to see the awesome manly manliness that is Falcon Nothin better than a character with 2 spikes....and his grabs were sexy

Couldn't use him in Melee very well...he suffered because he was huge, kind of slow, had too small of a shield, and was easily comboed.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

yeah my mains have been falcon and dk since the beginning. But unfortunatly it seems like falcon has been ***** all the way to the bottom of the brawl world.

 

[Dingding123]

They nerfed DK's back kick. It's a pity, you'd think they'd work harder on the older chars being better this time around. And, so far, with most of em, it's not so.

 

[Tien2500]

first of all, you're way too obsessed with matchups. calm the hell down.

second, most of that is just flat out false. if you're experiencing lag when fighting people up close, stop using fsmash. use jab and dtilt, or even sh bair. it's kind of like playing ike/bowser: SPAM JAB/TILTS. lag has never been a problem for me. i have no idea why you think ivy can't be played defensively... spamming razor leaf and then smacking people with vine whip or bullet seed has worked pretty **** well for me so far :/

ivysaur's recovery is fine. save your double jump, toss a razor leaf if they try to hug, and you're good. it's really not complicated.

i honestly don't understand how you people can see ivysaur as bottom/low tier material. i don't have a problem with attack lag. i don't have a problem with priority. i don't have a problem with building damage. i don't have a problem with getting gimped. i have a reasonably easy time killing. i have no trouble punishing people. i can make walls that are very tough for people to get around if my timing is right.

i almost feel like we're playing two different characters, because you're whining about things i have never even felt inconvenienced by.

Unfortunately Ivysaur doesn't have good tilts to spam like other characters. Up tilt is ok. Dtilt and Ftilt just aren't that strong. If your opponents are really shut down by Razorleaf spam they're not very good. Bullet seed only works if your opponent is dumb enough to try and approach from above. You can razor leaf an edgeguard but you have to time it well. Too early and they can powershield/block/dodge/jump over/ the leaf and grab the ledge. A good player can deal with a slow moving leaf headed towards them

As for DK... I haven't played him too well but he does have some pretty big issues. Mainly his size and weight which make him very comboable. I think this will keep him in the midish tiers at highest.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

This is only my second time make a tier list, working with the mistakes from my first one.

* Tier

Snake

S tier

Wolf
Metaknight
Toon link
R.O.B

A tier

Pit
Falco
Fox
King DeDeDe
Mr. Game & Watch

B tier

Lucas
Kirby
Zelda
Lucario
Pikachu
Ike
Olimar
Zamus
Luigi
Diddy Kong

C tier

Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Donkey Kong
Sheik
Samus
Wario
Ice Climbers
Mario
Peach
Ness

D tier

Bowser
Yoshi
Link
Jiggypuff

Z tier

Ganondorf
C. Falco


No particular order

Z as in dead last
* as in over the best in its own tier, for now. And yes wolf is S tier.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

As far as Ivysaur is concerned I do think that she is subpar. And yes her recovery is just bad. People can say that she can prevent gimps with razor leaf or whatever but the overlying issue is that Brawl is a game where most characters have a "good" recovery. Multiple jumps, gliding, and upB's that can take you from the bottom of FD all the way to the top are commonplace, so if your recovery is just OK, then that makes it pretty bad by comparison to the rest of the cast.

Also as was already stated she lacks in power too. She does at least have a projectile, but most other characters who have a projectile are better than hers. The only ones I can think of right off that are worse are Diddy's peanut gun, and Zamus' stungun. So if you are going projectile to projectile against someone, your going to lose most of the time. So that means razorleaf is pretty much only useful against characters who don't have projectiles themselves, and even they can avoid it pretty easily.

Also she is too slow to properly follow anything up. Her only real strength is her range but it is far from enough to save her from the rest of her flaws. And again, with such low speed and a bad projectile, its pretty easy for characters with better projectiles to just stay away from her and spam theirs, making her range a complete nonissue.

I don't want to give the impression that Ivy is complete trash, just that she is clearly the weakest of the three. It seems that her best use is just for staling while the other two recover from fatigue.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Unfortunately Ivysaur doesn't have good tilts to spam like other characters. Up tilt is ok. Dtilt and Ftilt just aren't that strong. If your opponents are really shut down by Razorleaf spam they're not very good. Bullet seed only works if your opponent is dumb enough to try and approach from above. You can razor leaf an edgeguard but you have to time it well. Too early and they can powershield/block/dodge/jump over/ the leaf and grab the ledge. A good player can deal with a slow moving leaf headed towards them

As for DK... I haven't played him too well but he does have some pretty big issues. Mainly his size and weight which make him very comboable. I think this will keep him in the midish tiers at highest.

ok, i just played some guy where i was pt. as ivysaur, i killed his metaknight with an up air after i had taken 18% and he had taken 86%. he switched to pit and i killed him with an up air at 36% while he was somewhere in his 80s. both times it was in the first minute of the match. just a little anecdote for those of you who say ivysaur has trouble going on the offensive.

you don't spam razor because it shuts them down. you spam it because it blocks their projectiles AND forces them to come to you, giving you either a free vine whip or a free bullet seed to fsmash. and on that the subject of bullet seed, it's is not for covering yourself from above, that's vine whip's job. bullet seed is for punishing people who try to roll around your razor leaves. i just position myself where they're going to be when their roll ends and start seeding. not only am i able to bypass the starting hit, which emblem lord accurately pointed out as being counterproductive, i also am almost guaranteed a free fsmash once they di out of the attack. i just wait until it looks like they're about to get out, then i let go of the button and fsmash to whichever side of the column they're on. it's worked pretty reliably so far, and it's essentially a free 60% or so. that's how i beat that guy's pit earlier... bullet seed to bullet seed to fsmash to up air. game over.

You can razor leaf an edgeguard but you have to time it well. Too early and they can powershield/block/dodge/jump over/ the leaf and grab the ledge. A good player can deal with a slow moving leaf headed towards them

this is how i know you have no idea how to play ivysaur and therefore shouldn't even be making comments about him. you don't razor leaf as they're running towards the edge, you razor leaf after they've grabbed the edge so it knocks them off and the edge is free for you. i think i actually killed someone this way earlier today...

EDIT: highandmightyjoe, i know from your post that you have no idea how to play ivysaur correctly, mainly because of that tirade you went on about razor leaf. man, this is kind of startling... people who have no idea how to play a character are making judgment calls on said character. and half of you probably think you deserve to get into the sbr, huh?

 

[Kiwikomix]

This is only my second time make a tier list, working with the mistakes from my first one.

* Tier

Snake

S tier

Wolf - too high. Below TL, probably above ROB. Where's Marth?
Metaknight
Toon link
R.O.B

A tier

Pit
Falco
Fox - too high. B tier.
King DeDeDe - people figured out how to beat this guy forever ago. Low B tier.
Mr. Game & Watch - Too low, belongs at S tier

B tier

Lucas - Higher maybe
Kirby - he's better, but not this good. Low B at best.
Zelda
Lucario
Pikachu - way higher. Mid A tier at worst.
Ike
Olimar
Zamus
Luigi
Diddy Kong

C tier

Sonic - too high.
Pokemon Trainer
Donkey Kong
Sheik
Samus
Wario
Ice Climbers - too low, mid B tier at the very worst
Mario
Peach
Ness - higher in C tier.

D tier

Bowser - he's better. Low B or high C.
Yoshi
Link
Jiggypuff

Z tier

Ganondorf
C. Falco - switch these last two around


No particular order

Z as in dead last
* as in over the best in its own tier, for now. And yes wolf is S tier.

Any particular reason why Snake can't just be top of S tier?

 

[supercake]

some guy won a tournament I was in with G&W last friday. He will be at least the high part of high tier, probably top.

 

[Xiivi]

I'm not going to push this list on any of you, but I think it's a very reasonable one. This list is based primarily off of tournament rankings.

Here is a recent post from Ankoku concerning tournament placement (not the list):

Below is a list of characters organized by how well they did in tournaments and how often they showed up. Apparently, Meta Knight and Snake are quite a bit more commonly top placing than the rest of the cast. There's possibly more characters taking wins and top4s than in Melee, but then you've got the huge list of characters barely placing top8 and the entire 9 characters not even making it that far.

Meta Knight (9 top8, 8 top4, 1 win, 28 pts)
Snake (7 top8, 4 top4, 4 wins, 27 pts)
Marth (5 top8, 4 top4, 4 wins, 19 pts)
Mr. Game & Watch (6 top8, 2 top4, 2 wins, 16 pts)
ROB (2 top8, 6 top4, 14 pts)
Pikachu (1 top8, 3 top4, 2 win, 13 pts)
King Dedede (3 top4, 2 wins, 12 pts)
Wolf (3 top8, 4 top4, 11 pts)
Lucario (2 top4, 1 win, 7 pts)
Ice Climbers (1 top8, 3 top4, 7 pts)
Olimar (7 top8, 7 pts)
Fox (3 top8, 1 win, 6 pts)
Falco (2 top8, 2 top4, 6 pts)
Peach (1 top4, 1 win, 5 pts)
Ike (1 top8, 2 top4, 5 pts)
Wario (2 top4, 4 pts)
Sonic (1 win, 3 pts)
Toon Link (1 win, 3 pts)
Pit (1 top8, 1 top4, 3 pts)
Zero Suit Samus (1 top8, 1 top4, 3 pts)
Ness (1 top8, 1 top4, 3 pts)
Luigi (1 top4, 2 pts)
Sheik (1 top4, 2 pts)
Bowser (1 top4, 2 pts)
Donkey Kong (2 top8, 2 pts)
Jigglypuff (2 top8, 2 pt)
Lucas (1 top8, 1 pt)
Mario (1 top8, 1 pt)
Diddy Kong (1 top8, 1 pt)
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Kirby
Link
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Zelda

As you can see, we can't even rank some of the cast on tournament ranking yet unless we wish to venture into the top 16 for tournaments, which could easily get messy (considering some tournaments are below 20 people and thus we'd be included the majority of players which wouldn't help one bit). However, this information is good for dealing with the higher ranks.

Also, looking at how characters have faired in Japan's metagame helps to solidify some character placements as well as help us assign some values to other characters. It is important to see that this is not Japan's tier list by any means but rather their watching of character tournament performance. Thus each and every update shall be looked at as they all show character movement and thus characters doing well in tournaments.

4/10/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list
http://game13.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/famicom/1207761820/282-382
S. Snake, Falco(^), MK(^), ROB(v)
A. Fox(^)
B. G&W(^^^), Diddy(^), Toon(^^^), Pit(^^^^^), M4rfu(v)
C. ICs(vvv), Wolf(vvv), Olimar(^^^^^), ZeroSamus(^^^), Pikachu(vvv), *Mario(^^^), Lucas(v), *Lucario(^^^^^)
D. Kirby(^^^), Sheik(vvv), DDD(vvv), Luigi(^^^), Wario
E. *Koopa(vvvvv), Samus(vvv), Zelda(vvvvv), *DK(^), Ness(^^^), Peach(vvvvv), Link(^^^)
F. Ike(vvvvv), *Sonic(^), CF(^), Purin(^^^), *PokeTore(vvv), Yoshi(vvv)
G. Ganon(v)

4/3/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/42562/1204231339/l50
S. Snake, ROB, Falco, MK, Wolf(^), ICs(^^^)
A. Fox(v), Marfu(^), Diddy(v), G&W(vvv), Toon(v), Pikachu(v), Koopa (^^^)
B. Ike(^^^^^), Lucas(^), Zelda(^^^^^), Sheik(v), DDD(^), Peach(^^^^^), Pit(vvvvv), Zamus(vvv), Samus(^^^), Wario
C. Olimar (vvv), Mario (vvv), Luigi(vvv), Kirby(vvv), DK(^^^), Lucario(vvv), Yoshi (^^^), Ness(vvv)
D. PokeT(^^^), Sonic(v), Link(vvv), CF(v), Ganon (^), Purin (v) ;_;

3/29/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list:
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/42562/1204231339/l50
S. Snake, ROB, Falco, MK
A. Fox
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon Link, Pit, Marf
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, Zamus, Pikachu, Mario, Lucas
D. Kirby, Sheik, Dedede, Luigi, Lucario, Wario
E. Koopa, Samus, Zelda, Ness, Peach, Link
F. Ike, Sonic, DK, CF, Jiggs, PokeTore, Yoshi
G. Ganon ;_;

3/22/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list:
http://game13.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/goveract/1206175501/l50x
S. Snake, Robotto
A. Falco, MK
B. G&W, Diddy, Toon Link, Pit, Fox, M4rf
C. ICs, Wolf, Olimar, ZeroSamus, Pikachu, Mario, Lucas
D. Kirby, Sheik, Dedede, Luigi, Lucario, Wario
E. Koopa, Samus, Zelda, Ness, Peach, Link
F. Ike, Sonic, DK, CF, Jiggs, PokeTore, Yoshi
G. Ganon ;_;

3/19/08 japan キャラランク "chara rank" list:
http://longsense.blog80.fc2.com/blog-date-200803.html
S. MK, Falco, Robo, Fox, Snake
A. Marusu, Pit, Toon
B. Wolf, G&W, Diddy, Mario, AiKura, Zamus
C. Pikachu, Luigi, Kirby, Dedede, Wario, Lucario, Lucas, Olimar
D. Peach, Samus, Sheik, Ness, Jiggs, PokeTore, DK, Koopa
E. Link, Ike, Zelda, Sonic
F. CF
G. Ganon, Yoshi ;_;

First character to look at, Snake: He's been dominating the NA metagame, only second to MK in points (by 1), however has more actual 1st place wins. In addition he has ALWAYS been S ranking for Japan tournament records.

Next character to look at, Metaknight: He's also been dominating the NA metagame, having the highest amount of points, but not too many 1st place finishes. In addition for Japan's metagame, he's mostly stayed S ranking with exception of 1 update where he didn't have amazing tournament results.

Next character to look at, Marth: He's been doing well in the NA metagame, having a lot of points (3rd), and just as many 1st place victories as Snake. In addition for Japan's metagame, he's constantly shifted between their A/B ranking.

Next character to look at, G&W: He's been doing great in the NA metagame, coming in 4th with points, and some 1st place victories. In addition for Japan's metagame, he's almost always remained B with exception of 1 update where he was A.

Next character to look at, R.O.B.: He's been doing good in the NA metagame, coming in 5th pointwise, however is lacking in actual 1st place victories. For the Japan metagame, he's always remained S rank.

Next character to look at, Pikachu: For the NA metagame he's 6th in points, however has 1st place rankings under his belt as opposed to numerous top 4/8s. For the Japan metagame, he's spent most of his time at C with 1 week spent at A.

Next character to look at, King DDD: He's fairing well in the NA metagame, getting 7th in points. However like Pikachu he has victories under his belt as well as numerous top 4s. For the Japan metagame, he's spent most of his time in D rank however sometimes has moved to C/B ranks.

Next character to look at, Wolf: He's doing fine in the NA metagame, getting 8th in points, however no victories are under his belt. For the Japanese metagame he's spent time from C ranks to S ranks.

Next characters, Lucario, ICs, Olimar: They are all tied for 9th in points for the NA metagame. However, Lucario gets his from a 1st place finish and top 4s. ICs get their points from mostly top 4s. While Olimar gets all of his from top 8s. As for the Japanese metagame Lucario has shifted between C/D mostly, ICs have shifted between C/B with an update at S, and Olimar has consistently found himself a C rank.

Next characters, Fox and Falco: They are tied for 12th in points for the NA metagame. Fox getting his from a tournament win and some top 8s. Falco getting his between top 4/8s. For the Japanese metagame Falco has almost always been S, and was once A. Fox on the other hand has been mostly A, which an update spent at S and an update spent at B.

Next characters, Peach and Ike: They are tied for 14th in points for the NA metagame. Peach using a 1st place and Ike with top 4/8s. For the Japanese metagame we have Peach usually at D, but once at B and once at E. For Ike, we see he's been usually in E/F being once at B.

Next character, Wario: Alone for 16th in points in the NA metagame from some top 4s. In the Japanese metagame we see him C/D with 1 update spent at B.

Next characters, Sonic, Toon Link, Pit, ZSS, and Ness: tied for 17th in points in the NA metagame. Sonic/Toon Link each did this from 1 notable win. Pit/ZSS/Ness did this through top 4/8s. For the Japanese metagame, Sonic has always been in the bottom ranks, while toon link has always found himself in A/B. Pit has almost always been a B, which 1 update at A. ZSS has usually been B/C. And Ness has almost always found himself low on the list.

Next characters, Luigi, Sheik, Bowser, DK, and Jigglypuff: tied for 22nd in points for the NA metagame. Luigi, Sheik, and Bowser did this by top 4, while DK and Jiggs did this from top 8s. For the Japanese metagame they've all been notably low with exception of Bowser getting A rank once and Sheik getting B rank once.

Next characters, Lucas, Mario, and Diddy Kong: tied for 27th in points for the NA metagame. This was through top 8 placing. For the japanese metagame Mario has been mostly B/C, Lucas has been mostly C with a B update, and Diddy Kong has been mostly B with an update as A.

Finally, we have the remaining characters with no evidence of note in the NA metagame. These are: Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Kirby, Link, Pokémon Trainer, Samus, Yoshi, and Zelda. For the Japanese metagame Captain Falcon has always been very low in the ranks, Ganondorf has almost always been dead last, Kirby has found his home at C/D, Link has been notably low, Pokemon Trainer has never had any strong showing, Samus has normally been low with 1 update spent at B, Yoshi has been very low almost always 2nd to last and once being last, and finally Zelda has been found herself very low with an update spent at the B level.

Looking at all of this we can get a good idea of how the characters stack up to each other tournament-wise as opposed to in print. The list below is based primarily off of the NA metagame using only the Japanese metagame in order to help resolve some questions between characters.

TOP-A:
Snake
Metaknight
Marth

TOP-B:
G&W
Pikachu
King DDD
ROB

HIGH:
Wolf
Ice Climbers
Lucario
Olimar
Fox
Falco

MIDDLE:
Toon Link
Pit
Diddy Kong
Peach
Ike
Wario
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Ness
Sheik
Sonic
Bowser
Lucas
DK
Jigglypuff
Mario

LOW:
Zelda
Samus
Kirby
Pokemon Trainer
Link

BOTTOM:
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

Tiers are separated by notable gaps within the metagame as a whole. This list does not reflect my personal opinion on characters, as I would fall into the notion of looking at things on paper as opposed to tournament results. Also I should note that this list has no separation of Pokemon Trainer as that is impossible with the information given. Please note that there is a huge gap between Top-A and Bottom. Please note that the gap between Top-A and Top-B is very slight, but noteworthy. Also note that middle covers a huge span, such that between High and Middle the gap is small, and between Middle and Low the gap is small. However between High and Low the gap is large.

Any questions please ask. Everything should explain itself, and most will disagree, I know I definitely do. Any changes must be backed up with tournament showings and nothing else. This is not a list based on potential that you see in a character (such as saying "OMG XXXXXX can chaingrab like 20 characters, move them up!"). That does not effect this until XXX character actually uses that potential to net them results.

EDIT: a side fact, I've been keeping up with this thread since page 74 (I have it set to display whatever the max posts per page is, so this is page 104 for me). So I've seen all of those arguments. And many of you make very good points that I like. I also go and check all of the specific character boards a lot to watch videos and how people feel their character is performing. If you wish to see a detailed tier list based on my opinion I will do so and use this list as a skeleton. I feel it's important to keep this list in mind as a skeleton to base your list on, as this is reality and not what you think and what you have seen of a character.

 

[Laijin]

Everyone is putting Link too high and Bowser too low.
Are you guys all ********? Link fails at life. I did'nt think it was possible in this game, but he has the worst recovery in the game. Its even worst than Ness's, which honestly, I think anyone could be worst than that.
I'll go as far as to say his recovery is worst than Yoshi's in melee.
Hes just that bad of a character

 

[Kiwikomix]

Man... we need some good Kirbys to step up. No way can he just show up as low tier.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

nice use of the word worst.

EDIT: commenting on those tournament statistics, i very firmly believe that rob is going to end up with snake and metaknight eventually. spot dodge is broken, roll is broken, laser is broken, aerial game is broken, upsmash is broken, downsmash is broken, jab is broken, recovery is broken, throws and death top are really useful.

i'm not sure why the community isn't up in arms about this guy, honestly. i don't even play as rob, and the first time i used him against a friend who also plays brawl, the first thing he said was, "ok, you don't get to be him anymore." rob is going to be the new peach.

EDIT AGAIN: there's no evidence that ivysaur is a girl besides the fact that there apparently was an ivysaur in the anime that was female.

pt is not red. pikachu is not melee pichu. ivysaur is not a girl. saying otherwise is just your fanboy imagination running wild.

 

[Illussionary]

ok enough about ivys gender, what do people think about DK as far as his placement goes?

Ivysaur is a girl. Dk has improved since Melee but he still isn't that good. I'd give him about Mid tier this time around.

 

[Deleted member]

Nobody has proven yoshi to be lower than mid tier yet, check a few pages back and try to outdo me. Dont just use random assumptions.

 

[Zm4rf]

Uh.

Pokémon can be either gender, just like dogs. So I'm going with Ivysaur being an it.

As for tiers:

God Tier
Random

Less-Than-God Tier
Everyone else.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that everyone's leaving Random out of the bunch.

What's a better counterpick than anything?

 

[Emblem Lord]

ROB telegraphs his best moves ALOT and he can't kill for ****.

Also his D-smash sucks. Easily DIed out of. His roll is good, not broken. His spot dodge is great though.

He has alot of good moves, but not really any broken ones cept for maybe his tilts and maybe his Uair.

Hit for hit is a bit weak. Tilts do crap damage. That said he will be no less than high tier since he is awesome and has alot of strengths, but he has weaknesses as will.

Also since he sucks at killing he has to rely almost exclusively on gimping, so characters that are hard to gimp can give alot of trouble.

 

[Grunt]

What's a better counterpick than anything?

everything.

 

[Deleted member]

ROB telegraphs his best moves ALOT and he can't kill for ****.

Also his D-smash sucks. Easily DIed out of. His roll is good, not broken. His spot dodge is great though.

He has alot of good moves, but not really any broken ones cept for maybe his tilts and maybe his Uair.

Hit for hit is a bit weak. Tilts do crap damage. That said he will be no less than high tier since he is awesome and has alot of strengths, but he has weaknesses as will.

Also since he sucks at killing he has to rely almost exclusively on gimping, so characters that are hard to gimp can give alot of trouble.

Nair can kill, bair can kill, fsmash can kill, usmash can kill. Gyro can kill =/ Hes not great at killing, but he can definately kill.

 

[Emblem Lord]

F-smash has crap range, and doesn't even kill that well.

Nair is telegraphed.

Bair is telegraphed.

U-smash is hella telegraphed.

Gyro is fine.

Telegraphed = easily seen and dodged on reaction = bad.

 

[Zm4rf]

F-smash has crap range, and doesn't even kill that well.

Nair is telegraphed.

Bair is telegraphed.

U-smash is hella telegraphed.

Gyro is fine.

Telegraphed = easily seen and dodged on reaction = bad.

Well, I guess that's what variation and feigning moves are fore.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mindgames?

I'm just talking about the qaulity of the moves here and quite a few of them are telegraphed.

This is a fact.

Wouldn't it be better to mindgame with moves that don't have these kind of weaknesses? I mean doesn't that make more sense. Io use mindgames with good moves and not so-so moves?

You can talk all you want about playing smart, but the weaknesses of the moves will still exist.

 

[Zm4rf]

Well.

Look at CF's Knee in Melee.

You need to mindgame into that.

These moves ARE strong, just obvious.

So let me ask you, what is a good move?

 

[Deleted member]

Marths fair.

 

[Emblem Lord]

...........

-_-


CF's Knee in melee didn't need mindgames although you could land knees with them.

But all you had to do if you wanted to land a knee was grab then combo off of it. Simple and effective.

The knee was good since it has good damage, good speed, good knockback, and was safe on block when sweetspotted. Plus hitting with the sweet spot was very easy. It also had very little lag when l-cancelled.

It was solid all around and had no real weaknesses.

A good move is a move where the pros basically out weight the cons. Generally you are looking for something that comes out quick, with little cool down time, decent damage, good knockback or sets up for other moves and is fairly safe on block.

 

[Zm4rf]

Kfine.

I blundered, I admit to that.

As examples for me to fully understand where you're coming from, can you tell me a move that is "good" and is used very commonly?

 

[orintemple]

Well, I guess that's what variation and feigning moves are fore.

Mindgames have no place in tier discussion. Tiers are about character potential and tourney winnings, we can't speculate on things someone MIGHT or COULD do. We need to look at straight facts.

ROB is great in almost all aspects, but I agree he has a rough time killing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's fair is one, yes that is true.

Rob's f-tilt or d-tilt are good overall despite being low in damage since they make good spacing tools and they aren't pitifully weak. Also d-tilt sets up for follow up attacks.

Snake's u-tilt is great. Fast, safe on block, very strong, insane killing power. This move has no weaknesses.

MK's f-tilt combo. Fast, safe on block, good damage racker, pops them into the air, each hit counts towards move regeneration. It's very good.

Get the idea? Moves that are spammable and reliable is what you are looking for.

 

[Zm4rf]

Agreeable.

Too tell the truth, I'm not sure exactly about ROB's metagame because my friend who plays him is n00b.

I need more exposure Dx.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

They nerfed DK's back kick. It's a pity, you'd think they'd work harder on the older chars being better this time around. And, so far, with most of em, it's not so.

...........
um sorry ding it's better than the b air because it has further reach and connects better.

 

[SlickSlicer]

In a way I think tiers are kind of dumb because I've seen godly players using all sorts of different characters...

 

[Corigames]

Then you don't understand what tiers are and I"m not going to care enough to explain it to a newbie like you posting about things they don't understand.