Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Zook]

Attention: Vulgarity does not contribute to one's side of any argument.

Ivysaur certainly isn't a top-tier character, but he absolutely isn't bottom tier. Those grabs combo into EVERYTHING for him, Razor Leaf really isn't that bad, Stun Spore kills babies before they've been concieved, and awsome range/kill moves. Just because he isn't a cheap character does not mean that he's unusable.

Low tier makes sense. Not bottom.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Ivysaur isn't meant to be the only character PT plays with.
Squirtle's recovery is pretty crappy. And like I said and VGH said, you can razor leaf the edge before tethering it, thereby getting rid of most of the gimpable qualities it has.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Zook: True. I just felt like being vulgar instead of civil for once. No harm done.

 

[Corner-Trap]

People are just way to optimistic, and I really hate that quality. They don't want to accept their characters weaknesses, and overhype their strengths. No matter what character we place in low or bottom tier, people will get made. Everyone always wants their characters to be moved up a tier.

 

[DanGR]

I'd say there's a certain degree of correctness to this discussion of a tier list and i'd like to post mine as of now, predicting what the future tier list will be like. I'm excluding IC for obvious reasons, and i main lucario and olimar, so my list may be bias for that reason. I will be updating it until the official one comes out.
Be sure to flame me, please. when i turn out to be close, just leave the boards. Just leave.

Top tier:
Marth
Pit
Diddy
G&W
Tink
Diddy
Snake

High:
Squirtle
Olimar
Pikachu
Wolf
MK
Falco
R.O.B.

Mid:
Luigi
Fox
Kirby
Ness
Sheik
Lucario
Ivysaur
Zamus
Bowser
Jigglypuff
Peach
DDD
Samus
Wario
Sonic
Charizard
Ike

Low:
Ganondorf
Mario
Link
DK
Yoshi
CF

 

[BDawgPHD]

Every time Ivysaur dies, which is really often, you have to switch twice just to go back to him. That takes away from Ivysaur's invicibility frames.

A gimpable recovery is always tough to make into a good character. Squirtle and even Charizard are far superior to Ivysaur in that department. Hell, even ZSS has a third jump to make up for the tethered gimpability.

Ivysaur is also just a little too slow. Slow...hard to keep in play...gimpable recovery...you commend his strength, but what slow character DOESN'T have that? Ivysaur is about as fast as Bowser. Bad thing.

What makes people think that Ivysaur is good, let alone not-near-bottom-tier?

You noobs have to stop comparing characters to Bowser to prove that they suck, because Bowser is ****ing good now, he might even be high tier. He's no longer a slow character, and most of his moves are reasonably fast, some of them lightning fast

Ivysaur doesn't suck pitifully. A good player will learn to avoid getting gimped by airdodging and razor leafing properly. From there, Ivysaur's offense is very meh, and HIS defense is pretty good. I'm not making Ivysaur out to be insanely good here, but HE'S good enough to play defense and clear out with in order to bring out Charizard, and in the end that's all that matters.

Here's a thought....I know that Ivysaur will NOT be bottom tier, unless the bottom tier has like 15 characters or some **** like that. HE'LL probably be low tier, possibly bottom of mid tier, in that range somewhere. Pokemon Trainer as a character will not suffer in the rankings because Charizard and Squirtle are both very good, and Ivysaur is good enough to use, and at worst HE'LL be a stalling character to rest pokemon and bring out Charizard.

It's as it is with Bowser.....the people who hate Ivysaur see HIM as really bad, and those who support HIM see HIM as really good. Ivysaur isn't too bad, but I like Charizard and even Squirtle better.

 

[Zook]

People are just way to optimistic, and I really hate that quality. They don't want to accept their characters weaknesses, and overhype their strengths. No matter what character we place in low or bottom tier, people will get made. Everyone always wants their characters to be moved up a tier.

It's true! That's why what we think doesn't matter to what the tier list ends up being.

Ivy's gonna be way low down there, btw. Little interest in him, feels strange to play as, TETHER RECOVERY, slow movement. Cons outway the pros for most people.

But not me. I'll always stick by Ivy. Plus, I get Squirtle and Charizard to help me out.

 

[KernelColonel]

Squirtle's recovery is pretty crappy. And like I said and VGH said, you can razor leaf the edge before tethering it, thereby getting rid of most of the gimpable qualities it has.

Squirtle's double jump is one of the best in the game. It's as high as Toon Link's, making ledgeguarding really really hard. And the razor leaf doesn't work that well; it hard to hit with and has low knockback. Also, you'd have to time it so that you press up-B right before the leaf hits so you can grab the ledge before they do again. Don't try to pretend that his recovery is anything better than bad.

 

[TehBo49]

^Yes. Ivysaur's recovery is the worst in the game. So, can we all just agree that he's low tier?

 

[Emblem Lord]

-_-

In the japanese anime Ivysaur has a female voice and I'm fairly certain she was even called out as being female by Sakurai.

SHE isn't bottom tier material IMO. Only CF and Ganon fir that bill, but I could make a case for Ganon being low tier material.

SHE is low tier.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

People are just way to optimistic, and I really hate that quality. They don't want to accept their characters weaknesses, and overhype their strengths. No matter what character we place in low or bottom tier, people will get made. Everyone always wants their characters to be moved up a tier.

ROFL

"i hate it when people have hope!"

... anway. i'm very much unconvinced that ivysaur is even a "low tier" character. you keep shouting your old mantra about matchups, but really... what's BAD about ivysaur? i freely admit that ivysaur isn't the best character in the game, but i don't see what makes you so anti-ivysaur.

bullet seed is a guaranteed ~40% damage if you do it right (and, believe it or not, that occasionally means YOU have to bypass that pop-up hit) and is absolute **** on larger characters, razor leaf cancels out most other projectiles and sets up perfectly for ivy's ridiculous air-control game, vinewhip has completely broken range, knockback and speed; it's just too good. upair is ******** with the power, speed, and size of it's hitbox. fair has a ton of range, speed isn't crippling, and is a kill move. bair has range, multiple hits, and autocancels. dair stops aerial momentum and has a pretty good amount of knockback. nair sets up for bullet seed quite nicely if you land before the last hit. upsmash... is broken. that's all there is too it. fsmash has very good range and pushes them away on shield hit. dsmash has good coverage, although damage and lag on it is kind of bad. tilts are all average, dtilt is pretty nice. jab combo has way too much range and safety.

i don't know what you think is bad about ivysaur. to me, this sounds like a classic case of the "i-can't-do-it-so-it's-bad" syndrome.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

I don't really think that we should be thinking of pt as three seperate characters, because to truly be a pokemon master (yes i ment to do that) you have to be good with all three pokes, yes you can easily switch out to the one you want, but i think the character will work better if you master all of them instead of just one.

 

[Zook]

-_-

In the japanese anime Ivysaur has a female voice and I'm fairly certain she was even called out as being female by Sakurai.

SHE isn't bottom tier material IMO. Only CF and Ganon fir that bill, but I could make a case for Ganon being low tier material.

SHE is low tier.

Ivy is a girl if you want it to. Same goes for Lucairo, and every other Pokemon. (Pika is a guy, tail proves it)

Anyways, there isn't enough interest in Ivy to make him in the upper tiers. Yoshi was an AT beast in Melee, but lack of interest stopped him from being mid-tier.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I don't really think that we should be thinking of pt as three seperate characters, because to truly be a pokemon master (yes i ment to do that) you have to be good with all three pokes, yes you can easily switch out to the one you want, but i think the character will work better if you master all of them instead of just one.

Well, part of being a pokemon master (your pun, not mine) is...mastering your pokemon. That means you have to know their individual matchups and strengths, and in comparison Ivysuar just isn't up to par with the other two.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Well, part of being a pokemon master (your pun, not mine) is...mastering your pokemon. That means you have to know their individual matchups and strengths, and in comparison Ivysuar just isn't up to par with the other two.

false.

for obvious reasons, if you would bother to learn.

 

[TehBo49]

@ Ivysaur defenders: A couple pages back, some of you said that Ivysaur had plenty of good matchups. Can you name some of those?

 

[Browny]

charizard is bad :/

my friend mains PT, and his ivysaur has given me the most trouble of anything. i main 7-8 characters so its not a matchup problem, but despite ivy's fail recovery, i still think its better than charizard and squirtle in most other aspects

meh

 

[Tien2500]

Ivysaur isn't that good. Its speed is mediocre as its strength. Fsmash and Usmash are both great finishers but they're telegraphed and laggy. Uair and Dair also good but easy to see coming and avoid. Tilts are mediocre (except Utilt which I like). Bullet seed can be DIed out of most of the the time. When all is said and done all Ivysaur is good for is dragging down Squirtle. But of course it should be mentioned that all you need to do as Ivysaur is get in one solid hit and switch to Charizard.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I've come to the conclusion that absolutely no one will be happy no matter who we put in bottom tier. The characters who consistently get placed in bottom tier are sonic, mario, gannondorf, captain falcon, and ivysaur. All of these characters weaknesses far outweight their strengths. They all have many more disadvantageous match-ups than advantageous. They mostly only do well against other low or bottom tier characters. Despite these characters glaring flaws, players will consistently bring up minuscule factors about the characters as if they overpower all of their aforementioned faults. People won't accept that these characters just don't stack up to everyone else. They'll constantly push for those characters to be moved up a tier until the bottom tier no long exists.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

Well, part of being a pokemon master (your pun, not mine) is...mastering your pokemon. That means you have to know their individual matchups and strengths, and in comparison Ivysuar just isn't up to par with the other two.

I totally agree with you. What I was saying is that we should not judge each pokemon individually. we should judge the pt as a whole. I think PT deserves to be high tier. Lets say that squirtle has a bad match up, you can just switch over to charizard or ivysaur. Allowing for a good match-up for the PT player almost all the time.

 

[Deleted member]

I think ivysaur is decent at best, not terrrible, but not good. Like Bhdawg said, she cant really do much offensively, but her defense is pretty good. Her bairs have tiny damage but massive range and can be used to keep off an aggressive opponent. Once the opponent is in killing range, she struggles because tho she has a few good killing moves, if the opponent is looking for them, they wont hit often.

Anyways i have a question. What makes yoshi bad? Im not gonna rant, i honestly want to know what intelligent smashers think. Common arguments:

His recovery is bad and easily gimped: Common misconception. U hit me at a low angle and jump out to edgeguard me and u are, say, diddy. I can throw and egg before my double jump, even two, then go up and hit u in the middle of my jump (eggs have a good amount of stun) and be safe. Even if u stand back and wait i can grab the ledge with my down b, air dodge, and fake u out with my up b. His recovery is alot better than tetherers, Dk, bowser, link, mario, etc, probably around average recovery

He has trouble killing: Not rly true. Down b, fsmash, usmash, uair. Bairs and eggs can set up for these. Can kill at 120ish.

His shield sucks: Very true. However its not as big of a problem as it should be (still a pretty big problem). Because for lots of things, he can just run away and pivot grab. More effective than shielding, tho yoshi wishes he could jump OOS =/

I honestly wanna know, because i have no clue why people put him in bottom =/

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

I've come to the conclusion that absolutely no one will be happy no matter who we put in bottom tier. The characters who consistently get placed in bottom tier are sonic, mario, gannondorf, captain falcon, and ivysaur. All of these characters weaknesses far outweight their strengths. They all have many more disadvantageous match-ups than advantageous. They mostly only do well against other low or bottom tier characters. Despite these characters glaring flaws, players will consistently bring up minuscule factors about the characters as if they overpower all of their aforementioned faults. People won't accept that these characters just don't stack up to everyone else. They'll constantly push for those characters to be moved up a tier until the bottom tier no long exists.

tell me, what exactly about ivysaur is BAD?

you keep screaming about how terrible his matchups are, but really, i've found ivysaur to be my most reliable pokemon.

so really, let's just get down to the bare essentials: what is BAD about ivysaur? lots of range on most attacks; your bread-and-butter attacks aren't slow at all; very, very good kill moves; and a very spammable projectile that sets up perfectly for your op air control game.

i keep seeing people whining about slow movement speed, which is stupid for multiple reasons, not the least of which is the fact that this is a lockout type of character: you keep people out, not combo them around.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Anyways i have a question. What makes yoshi bad? Im not gonna rant, i honestly want to know what intelligent smashers think.

I also am curious about this. Every time a Yoshi user gets on, every user on this thread gangs up on them and nothing gets accomplished.

@ Ivysaur defenders: A couple pages back, some of you said that Ivysaur had plenty of good matchups. Can you name some of those?

Advantage: Falcon, Ganon, Squirtle, Bowser, DK, Jiggz, Peach, Sheik, Sonic, Ike, Wario, Yoshi.
Neutral: Charizard, Kirby, Link, Lucario, Mario, Luigi, Zelda, Zamus, Samus, Dedede.

She can fight half the characters with a good chance of winning.

 

[St. Viers]

I love how I spend time coming up with a tier list and no one discusses it. Obviously it's right then XD, or people are afraid to challenge me, both of which are stupid, as I'm most likely uninformed, and very willing to admit when I'm wrong (though if I go into something saying someone will lose they will--but this isn't the case).

Come on people. Don't talk about ivysaur, as it's obvious we can't convince people that she isn't good. Let them believe it until either they start getting owned or the SBR confirms whether she is good/bad on their own.

Just to shift the topic, what do people think about Diddy/ Toon Link? Both of these chars were really hyped when they first were played, but from what I'm seeing now they seem to have lost the newness, and now they are appearing weaker than at first.

Diddy: The banana's simply aren't annoying as we first thought. Although they help control the stage, they don't as much as snakes, as they can be picked up and the ownership shifts. This makes them a double edged weapon...though I once saw a great gimp by smeone using them over the edge.

Also, as people have gotten used to the speed of the game he doesn't seem so fast, and now that people know his attacks, his dash attack isn't so scary. With DXL/ whatever it's called, his shield hit->something again isn't so unique, and his kill moves aren't so effective. I don't have brawl myself, but I'm seeing him kill at around 150, and that's if he only uses it to kill. I don't see peple use his down-smash, but his up-smash isn't that good either. He can juggle people some, but you can't juggle to a finisher because of the new air-dodge system.

TL: He has a good projectile game, but what else (I don't know much about him) His range is short, and his smashes seem average. He's floaty, but that isn't always good. Also, I've noticed lots of people messing up his autosweetspot (Is that just stupidity, or something to do with how his up B works?) He can combo, but his spike it risky, as if you miss he dies. I dunno much about his tilts either, except that his up-tilt is great.

His aerials are good (or his b-air is, not so sure about his f/n-air. His d-air certainly has uses, but not a good move over-all, unless I'm missing something >_<

Thoughts?

 

[St. Viers]

Sorry for the double post

 

[Corner-Trap]

tell me, what exactly about ivysaur is BAD?

you keep screaming about how terrible his matchups are, but really, i've found ivysaur to be my most reliable pokemon.

so really, let's just get down to the bare essentials: what is BAD about ivysaur? lots of range on most attacks; your bread-and-butter attacks aren't slow at all; very, very good kill moves; and a very spammable projectile that sets up perfectly for your op air control game.

i keep seeing people whining about slow movement speed, which is stupid for multiple reasons, not the least of which is the fact that this is a lockout type of character: you keep people out, not combo them around.

Ok tell me, what match-ups does Ivysaur have an advantage in? And you want weaknesses? Have you not been paying attention for the last couple of pages? I'm pretty sure we listed a mountain of flaws in her. She can't be played offensively because she moves slow and has really laggy attacks making her easy to punish. She can't be played defensively because her attacks don't come out fast nor do they have really high priority meaning she can't reliably counter attack. Also if she plays defensively she'll eventually be pushed to the edge in which players can take advantage of her gimpable recovery. Seriously who is she better than? She doesn't excel in any particular area.

 

[superglucose]

Diddy Kong is, imo, strong enough. I can usually hit some of the lighter characters off at about 120 ish, which seems to be about the average. Bananas can still be good simply because if you use them right your opponent trips when getting up.

Toon Link... I'm very Meh on toon link. He's got some moves that work... I dunno. I usually thrash the people I play with 1v1 (but when we get a group match I just can't get the hang of keeping track of everyone), going random and beating and even 2 stocking their mains. One of my friends plays Toon Link, I main Pit. I don't think I've ever lost.

It's funny because I'm not that good, I can just recognize patterns in my friends and how to counter them. It takes me about 5 matches... so it's useless in tourneys

Anyways, Hyphen-smashing with TL is very meh (I don't like TL's up smash), but using the bomb and moving into a double FSmash is a strong move.

As for Ivysaur, I dunno, I find Ivysaur isn't very good, but I like switching to him/her/himher/herhim/whatever the **** the 'official' gender is who FRIGGEN CARES?! for those final kills. I usually have used Charizard's attacks too much, and I can't use Squirtle to save my life (seriously, I'm just deficient with the turtle).

 

[Grandeza]

Well Diddy Kong I think will be high tier. He is fast, the same speed as Marth(correct me if I'm wrong). He has a nice ground game. His moves have high priority. His dash attack has almost no lag. It's like he can DLX cancel without actually dlx cancelling. He has nice kill moves. His down smash has nice knockback. He has numerous spikes to gimp people. As you mentioned, his bananas can gimp recoveries such as spacies and ness and lucas easily. His recovery is decent and he has a great air game. The fair can kill off the screen nicely. His bananas are still great and have added depth with glide-tossing. His throws are good and is overall a very good character. I might be a little biased though. I love Diddy.

 

[St. Viers]

VHG: Ivysaur HAS to be defensive, which is a big problem in itself. She is unable to deal out as much as she takes (her range included) and she gets gimped easily, razor leaf trick and all. (unless you have perfect spacing, they can just drop as you fire and regrab.

Her only good points are her range and razor leaf. The attacks that are strong are either slow, short range or directly up/down. So yeah... Again, no character in brawl is *bad,* but ivysaur is worse than most of the others.

Kiwikomix: Because again, Yoshi isn't as good as other characters, even if he isn't bad.

re: matchups:
Bowser shouldn't have a problem against Ivysaur. His jabs counter the razor leaf, and his fire outranges her attacks. this makes her have to approach him, which puts her at a disadvantage.

DK: Again, he should win ^_^ his aerial game is incredable, and can space it to avoid her b, upsmash, and cuts through her aerials.

Sheik: how is ivysaur advantaged? shiek can just sit back and needle camp, which goes through your leaves.

Squirtle can run rings around Ivysaur, juggle her, and get her too far out to recover easily. Again, why is this favoring Ivysaur?

Ike just outranges her, and gets a great approach due to his side B. Again, explain

The other are also considered "bad" characters, and being better than 5 characters doesn't make you good.

 

[Grunt]

Anywho, a tier list based off of my experience, plus basic knowledge. (not organized fully within sections)
some explanations For tiers, It's
organized into the following tiers, because f the number of characters that melee didn't.
Better than Top: The best characters
Top: Extremely good character
High:
Upper:
Mid
Low
Bottom.

Better-Than-Top
MK:
He is quick, has excellent recovery, racks up damage well, and gets to keep his kill moves while doing it. His grab is great as a forcing attack, though not for comboing. because of his quick, lagless aerials he has an easier time edgeguarding. His smashes are only decent, his f-smash is slightly laggy, and his up smash doesn't kill, though again it's a pressure move because now they are above someone with a disjointed hitbox, limiting what they can do. His problems are that he is light, and his range although good, isn't the best. He also has no projectile, but because of his multiple options, that isn't such a problem...

I can see him changing to top/high eventually, but not for awhile.

Snake:
All about control. Even if the opponent knows where the mines are, it still limits what they can do, and you can still force them on to some (throws, tilts, etc) If you treat him as a "normal" character, he isn't so good, as his smashes aren't typical smashes, and you have to instead rely on tilts. His tilts are as good as typical smashes though, especially f-tilt. He is mobile, thanks to boost-dashing, and has a wide variety of versitile projectiles. His aerial game isn't the best, but they have their uses, most noticeably his b-air and up-air. Also, his taunt can spike, how cool is that ^_^

G&W:
Finally as good as he should have been in melee. His f-air is great for spacing, killing, and retreating. His up-air is amazing in this game, as it forces the opponent to react, even if it doesn't hit. His b-air is one of the best approaches in the game, and thanks to RARing it makes it even more useful. His d-throw doesn't combo, but it allows for tech-chasing, AND if I'm pretty sure down-throw to jab does always hit some characters. One of the best throws regardless (behind DDD and IC, and falco). His hammer isn't AS useless, and his f-smash still comes out quick, and has almost no wind-down lag. His UpB is amazing and versatile. His d-air is amazing, and his n-air, although not a kill move is still very useful, especially as it's range is deceptively large. He has a situational projectile, though the situations where it is useable are more frequent than most people realize, and the pan has decent damage and knock-back too. His oil panic was buffed, and makes him one of the best anti-campers in the game (that plus turtle I think take out all projectiles). His only problem is being light. However, as his shield doesn't suck in this game, it isn't as much of a problem as in melee. Plus, he can kill at low percents (especially with his upB-f-air gimp).

Falco:
he has the best viable spam game in Brawl. His lasers are fast, stun, and damage (making them better than fox's, wolf's, and other good projectiles like pit's arrows, or lucario's aura sphere). Add th ereflector and you have another excellent "my camping> your camping" game. His throws combos, and he can gimp off the edge at low percents. He has a decent aerial game, enough ways to kill AND rack up damage. He's pretty much in the God Tier because he is has no cons, and some pros (imagine a stepmania song that was 14/10 steps, and that's falco)

In summation, these 4 characters have the greatest advantages, coupled with the least disadvantages. On top of that, they each of use the "as of now" know facts of brawl in more ways most other characters. This is what separates them from Top tier.

Can anyone argue with this? If so, do it via AIM or something as well as posting, because conversing with people on AIM is easier than doing it over a forum. Anywho, I' won't go into so much detail (yet) with the others, only cause I wanna flesh the rest out.

Top
Marth:
IC:
Look, from a theory standpoint they are the best, because they have guarenteed 0-death combos. Meaning that they would be in God tier except that you can outcamp them, and humans aren't machines.
DDD:
Pit:
His lack of kill moves/short range and size/weight ratio are all that barely keep him from being "God"ly
Pikachu

High
Olimar: People will say he should be higher, but I disagree. he's just novel, and his size/movement/what exactly he's doing confuses people. I don't see him staying top, so I'm not putting him there.
Wolf
Lucas
Lucario
ROB
Toon Link
Zelda

For these 3 tiers, I wanna make something clear: They arent' that separated. Any character from these tiers has an almost even chance of beating any other character,which is why organizing within categories is useless. It's just that some characters have a natural advantage due to slightly better moves, or things like that. Feel free to debate, but don't tell me:

1. x should be higher.
2. x should be lower.

Instead say why you think that, and while doing it show that you are taking more than just your opinion into account. Use fact, not opinion. It makes it easier to discuss, and by basing things in fact you can then submit opinions and they will be more valid.

Upper
Kirby
Diddy:
I'm mixed about him. I want him to be higher, but I just don't think he will be. People just aren't used to him yet.
DK
Sheik
Luigi
Ness
Wario
Fox

Mid
Samus
Link
Ike
Bowser
PT

Low
Jiggz
Mario
Yoshi
Peach

Bottom
Sonic
Falcon
Ganon.

If need be I'll add more explanations.

Can i have an explination of toon Link's position?

I have some weird feeling about Diddy. it seems like will get really good at one point.

your over the top tier seems very good. im starting to like GnW even more as i play as him.

Upper mid low and bottom seem alright except Luigi being under shiek. Luigi has wicked fast aerials and can actually kill people at reasonable percents. shiek has trouble with kill moves, not to mention luigi's recovery is great.

 

[Deleted member]

Ah but yoshi is as good as the other characters. That isnt a good answer, i could argue that he is. Why isnt he as good as the other characters.

 

[St. Viers]

Because I don't know toon link well. He seems good, but not great. His projectile game is okay, but he seems very average, with a few good points. That seems to be high tier rather than higher.

I dunno though, that's why I want people's thoughts.

re: sheik/luigi, if you read my post you'd see that I'm not organizing place within tiers...that will take tournie results to nail completely.

Ah but yoshi is as good as the other characters. That isnt a good answer, i could argue that he is. Why isnt he as good as the other characters.

Because he lacks defensive options, while not having a good enough offense to offset it. He has decent aerials, and his b-air is a great approach, but his double jump makes him vunerable (funnily enough) because you can't use it to attack anyone, only recover. His recovery isn't bad, but it isn't good. his upB helps now, but only a little. His tilts are decent, but nothing excellent, and his smashes got nerfed (f-smash as an exception).

Again, this doesn't make him bad, it just makes many other people better.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario can't be bottom tier when he has one of the better ledgeguarding strategies in the game. Not just that, he also can deal with projectile camping aptly, unlike the majority of the cast. Luigi has nothing that makes him good in these categories, but he's consistently put at least a tier higher than Mario. Mario isn't all that easy to punish anyway when he overall has very low lag.

The others Corner Trap mentioned I can see at the low end though.

 

[TehBo49]

Advantage: Falcon, Ganon, Squirtle, Bowser, DK, Jiggz, Peach, Sheik, Sonic, Ike, Wario, Yoshi.
Neutral: Charizard, Kirby, Link, Lucario, Mario, Luigi, Zelda, Zamus, Samus, Dedede.

She can fight half the characters with a good chance of winning.

Even though I don't I agree with a few of those, the characters that she beats are mostly low/bottom tier characters. Also, Ivysaur has 17 bad matchups & 12 good matchups (according to your list). Thus, I still think that Ivysaur is low tier.

@ St. Viers: Diddy is probably the high part of middle in my opinion. His aerials are good, but his peanut gun sucks & his banana's aren't as good as everyone thought they were. Like you said, they aren't as good as Snake's C4 or d-smash & they can be used against you.

Toon Link is probably top/high tier. His floatiness is great because it lets him WoP. B-air is awesome, f-air is somewhat slow but stronger than b-air, & d-air can spike kill someone at 0%. Combined with his great projectiles, I think he's good for high if not top tier.

 

[Grunt]

Because I don't know toon link well. He seems good, but not great. His projectile game is okay, but he seems very average, with a few good points. That seems to be high tier rather than higher.

I dunno though, that's why I want people's thoughts.

re: sheik/luigi, if you read my post you'd see that I'm not organizing place within tiers...that will take tournie results to nail completely.

well Toon Link's main strategy is somewhat linked to his projectiles. he's sort of like Ryu in most street fighter games. sure he can throw a hadouken or two to mess with you, but once you slip, he can rush in and chain a good amount of hits before backing off again. toon link does this easily. his speed and range give him a better chance of starting some "combo/chains" while his projectiles give you the ability to position them where you want. of course this is usually countered by the "Ken" of the game, who once he lands a hit, there's no escape. this tends to be MK, but really, no one has some inescapable combo yet.

re:re:Shiek/Luigi:
O, ok, i missed that.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Even though I don't I agree with a few of those, the characters that she beats are mostly low/bottom tier characters. Also, Ivysaur has 17 bad matchups & 12 good matchups (according to your list). Thus, I still think that Ivysaur is low tier.

I said a few pages back that I agree she's low tier. Just no bottom tier, please.

To the Mario defender guy, Mario had his almost-day back in Melee and now he's pretty awful. Not-as-good cape, bad FLUDD, bad dair, bad recovery, good ledgecamping but bad edgeguarding.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Ok tell me, what match-ups does Ivysaur have an advantage in? And you want weaknesses? Have you not been paying attention for the last couple of pages? I'm pretty sure we listed a mountain of flaws in her. She can't be played offensively because she moves slow and has really laggy attacks making her easy to punish. She can't be played defensively because her attacks don't come out fast nor do they have really high priority meaning she can't reliably counter attack. Also if she plays defensively she'll eventually be pushed to the edge in which players can take advantage of her gimpable recovery. Seriously who is she better than? She doesn't excel in any particular area.

first of all, you're way too obsessed with matchups. calm the hell down.

second, most of that is just flat out false. if you're experiencing lag when fighting people up close, stop using fsmash. use jab and dtilt, or even sh bair. it's kind of like playing ike/bowser: SPAM JAB/TILTS. lag has never been a problem for me. i have no idea why you think ivy can't be played defensively... spamming razor leaf and then smacking people with vine whip or bullet seed has worked pretty **** well for me so far :/

ivysaur's recovery is fine. save your double jump, toss a razor leaf if they try to hug, and you're good. it's really not complicated.

i honestly don't understand how you people can see ivysaur as bottom/low tier material. i don't have a problem with attack lag. i don't have a problem with priority. i don't have a problem with building damage. i don't have a problem with getting gimped. i have a reasonably easy time killing. i have no trouble punishing people. i can make walls that are very tough for people to get around if my timing is right.

i almost feel like we're playing two different characters, because you're whining about things i have never even felt inconvenienced by.

 

[Deleted member]

Because he lacks defensive options, while not having a good enough offense to offset it. He has decent aerials, and his b-air is a great approach, but his double jump makes him vunerable (funnily enough) because you can't use it to attack anyone, only recover. His recovery isn't bad, but it isn't good. his upB helps now, but only a little. His tilts are decent, but nothing excellent, and his smashes got nerfed (f-smash as an exception).

Again, this doesn't make him bad, it just makes many other people better.

Retreating bairs are good, pivot grabs are freaking amazing (this is fact lol), he can DJC (double jump counter) through attacks (not sure if that counts as a defensive option), ETS (egg toss slides) allow yoshi to use eggs even against an approaching opponent. I play a very defensive yoshi and i think hes a good defensive character. His bair is great, his uair is great, his nair is good, his dair is situational but can rack up 30+ damage easily if used at the right times. Id say good aerials. Up b is mostly for that final push and for warding off edgeguarders. His ftilt can quickly rack up 20-30 damage, even more sometimes on big characters. His fsmash lost range but is now more powerful, his usmash is about the same but i find more uses for it in brawl. His dsmash got nerfed, but is still useful for its range.

I would agree that many people are better, but hes certainly better than a lot of the cast.

 

[BDawgPHD]

-_-

In the japanese anime Ivysaur has a female voice and I'm fairly certain she was even called out as being female by Sakurai.

SHE isn't bottom tier material IMO. Only CF and Ganon fir that bill, but I could make a case for Ganon being low tier material.

SHE is low tier.

You're basing your assumption that Ivysaur is a chick from some random anime?

Also, I don't care what Sakurai says Ivysaur is.

HE is a dude.

*presents evidence*

1) His voice IN BRAWL is very manly....males can get away with high voices, but females cannot with deep voices....he's clearly a guy.

2) Whenever I use his side-taunt, I always yell out "LOOK AT MA BAAAALLLLZ".

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i'm beyond surprised that ivysaur's gender is even a debate.

it's an animal. just call it "it." seriously. this is so dumb :/