Official BBR Tier List v7

[Peachy-Desu]

Fair and dair are entirely different moves, there is no correlation between being able to grab one and the other.

And I actually just doubted that ICs could grab it, nothing more. I only argued with you about the things you are wrong about >_>

You mean the things you *thought* I was wrong about.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well no
SDI does not impact KO% by 40%; once again, take it from a Jigglypuff player
SDI does not affect trajectory, as PokeMastr explained before

 

[-LzR-]

It makes no difference if you float or not, you will not have any lag in Fair at all. It's safe. Everyone has been buffering shieldgrabs since their first two weeks of Brawl so it's all bull****. If Peach fair could be shieldgrabbed, there would not be a single move that couldn't grabbed because Peach fair is the true safe move in the game. Learn to space your fair and you will quickly reach midlevel of play where shieldgrabs are not as threatening.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Well no
SDI does not impact KO% by 40%; once again, take it from a Jigglypuff player
SDI does not affect trajectory, as PokeMastr explained before

Fine then it aids it preventing her to ko earlier than she should, effectively prolonging her ko power thats already horrible. Perhaps I was mixing them together in my mind sdi and DI together and just saying sdi to put them together. Since I never said that you shouldt di after you sdi. So that 40% was me saying it for di and the sdi adding a gap.

I told you I'm horrible at explaining things. X(

Edited: Was tired.. said things I shouldn't have to the wrong person due to sleep deprivation.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

It makes no difference if you float or not, you will not have any lag in Fair at all. It's safe. Everyone has been buffering shieldgrabs since their first two weeks of Brawl so it's all bull****. If Peach fair could be shieldgrabbed, there would not be a single move that couldn't grabbed because Peach fair is the true safe move in the game. Learn to space your fair and you will quickly reach midlevel of play where shieldgrabs are not as threatening.

You'd be amazed at how many people don't bother to, because for brawl you don't need to for quite a lot of characters moves.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I like how you sound exasperated with me, as if I spent 4 pages getting DI and SDI mixed up and arguing adamantly about it.

I still doubt ICs can shield grab Peach's fair though. ICs were my old main and my training partner is a Peach main, so I've got a pretty solid idea >_>
Can I get some kind of hard evidence on this? I tried to test before but it's too hard with one person.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

I like how you sound exasperated with me, as if I spent 4 pages getting DI and SDI mixed up and arguing adamantly about it.

I still doubt ICs can shield grab Peach's fair though. ICs were my old main and my training partner is a Peach main, so I've got a pretty solid idea >_>
Can I get some kind of hard evidence on this? I tried to test before but it's too hard with one person.

It's not you.. it's the one above you annoying me going on.. he said there's no float cancels in brawl with her soooo can't say i'm giving him much credit anymore. So don't think it's you. lol I haven't slept.

I don't have video footage on hand and ready to go for IC specifically. I'm almost *positive* on them. Though someone would have to shield DI the fair and then grab for you.. something I don't think someone can do alone.

Oh right... Jiggly what's that? XD <3

 

[1PokeMastr]

Actually.

Peach's Fair auto cancels on Frame 20.
And hits from 16 - 19.

Her short hop is in the air for 51 frames, meaning if you Short Hop Fair, you're still going to fall for another 32 frames, meaning you miss the auto cancel window.

Hm.. 32 frames of falling, okay.

Now.. if you fast fall, she's still in the air for 24 frames after the Fair hitbox ends.
Hm.. 24 frames of falling, okay.


Now if you do Fair 20 frames before landing, you get 0 on block.
Which is why float cancelling is useful because it basically makes you AC Fair on frame 20, allowing for the 0 on Block.

Now, here's your frame data. I'm showering.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Peach's fair on shield is advantageous to Peach if she AC's correctly.

Damage 14, hitlag 1, damage on frame 16, AC on frame 20.... that's like 10 frames of shield advantage, you should not be getting shield grabbed unless you put the controller down.

It isn't 0 on block, it's like +10, IIRC. Try it out in debug, lol.

 

[1PokeMastr]

It's not +10, it's +7.

And that only happens if they try to shield drop -> move.
Not Grab Oos or JC Usmash, or Up B Oos because they ignore shield drop lag.

Other than that, it's 0.

 

[-LzR-]

It's +2 if done optimally. How can you shieldgrab a move that is over when you are still stunned? And no there is no float canceling in Brawl. I have no idea where you got that idea. And yes I know groundfloating allows you use your fair earlier, but that's what mixups are for. Peach at shorthop height has other options than fair and people are afraid of that fair so people won't just charge in like morons.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually I did the calculations wrong, pls ignore me LOL

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If Peach fairs my shield I'd probably roll into her and Rest if she tried to capitalize

love having a frame 1 move :3

 

[1PokeMastr]

Rest is frame 2.
Invincible on frames 1-26.

Then you miss and take Ganon's U-Tilt.


http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246380 For all you Peach boys.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I know it's frame 2, it's effectively frame 1 due to the invincibility that's all.
Easier than clarifying every single time, in most realistic situations, it might as well be frame 1

 

[-LzR-]

Yes but that one frame means a lot when it comes to shielding or dodging a move like rest with such a small hitbox.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Marth Up B for frame 1.
:3

 

[Peachy-Desu]

I know it's frame 2, it's effectively frame 1 due to the invincibility that's all.

I changed my post for you grim *the earlier one* again sorry i came off like that to you.. it's not you.. it's me and the annoying one! XD

So there you have it frame data! It's why anyone with an invicible oos option *should* punish her.. Marth up B, MK SL.

Again sorry for things that I may have sounded annoyed about to you grim it wasn't you. <33

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes but that one frame means a lot when it comes to shielding or dodging a move like rest with such a small hitbox.

It means very little when trying to hit Jigglypuff with an attack though, which is what I was referring to.

Peachy: It's fine, I don't get offended/angry/etc... I just match my tone when I'm in a discussion, so if you came off as blunt I probably did too.

 

[Meru.]

Now, here's your frame data. I'm showering.

You can retreat during you short-hop and autocancel it when you land back (with a fast fall). Fair has a lot of range and you're not vulnerable for 32 frames. It has been working since the day dinosaurs died out.

I don't know if "Yaaay" is serious on his last part, but what Peachy is trying to explain.

Ground Float Fair AC = Safe.
Trying to land with Fair =/= Safe.

Oooooh yeaaah but I think in general we like Fair a bit too much when trying to land.

We were talking fair.. but yes nair would ko earlier.

Fair kills earlier than Nair. Near the ledge of FD it will definitely kill Marth at 125-130. It will rarely happen though because Fair is never fresh and Marth won't ever be just dancing near the ledge, waiting for a Fair to slap him.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Then why do I live a Fresh Fair at 140% ledge of FD.

Why ?

And I was saying why landing with Fair is still punishable.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think Peach players use fair too much in general.

Fair hurts and it's a good punish but every time you use it, you make it exponentially more difficult to kill the guy.

Land and jab instead.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

You can retreat during you short-hop and autocancel it when you land back (with a fast fall). Fair has a lot of range and you're not vulnerable for 32 frames. It has been working since the day dinosaurs died out.



Oooooh yeaaah but I think in general we like Fair a bit too much when trying to land.



Fair kills earlier than Nair. Near the ledge of FD it will definitely kill Marth at 125-130. It will rarely happen though because Fair is never fresh and Marth won't ever be just dancing near the ledge, waiting for a Fair to slap him.

Marth can live at 140%~ Poke tested and told me. I'm going to assume 150/160 (since let's face it fair won't be fresh and if it doesn't kill at 140 fresh lool) and it's a ko. Diddy can also live much longer due to his momentum cancel at ledge reaching up to around the same % as marth. DK with his momentum cancel can live till 190% mainly due to the momentum cancel. *This is all at ledge* *not offstage*

 

[1PokeMastr]

By ledge, I mean I was tip toeing on the stage.

 

[-LzR-]

I'm the only one who only uses fair to kill? Seriously? And stop saying nonsense like floatcanceling, just stop.
And Yaaaay is right, you can retreat your fair and it's not like you have to fair. Fair is safe, the most safest aerial in the game looking at frame data.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Isn't fox's bair like +4 on shield or something? lol

 

[Peachy-Desu]

I'm the only one who only uses fair to kill? Seriously? And stop saying nonsense like floatcanceling, just stop.
And Yaaaay is right, you can retreat your fair and it's not like you have to fair. Fair is safe, the most safest aerial in the game looking at frame data.

You are bad, they exist. Try it and blow your mind! If you can;t do it.. I'm sorry but you suck. <3

 

[1PokeMastr]

Fox Bair is +4, yes.

And perfect Mk Nair is +5 or +6 meaning Nair -> Grab is guaranteed with Mk.
With perfect AC.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^I want to learn how to do that

What is Puff's dair on shield assuming the last hit connects?

 

[-LzR-]

I don't think Puffs dair as safe as those 3 moves mentioned before. Though the optimal AC for MKs nair is almost irrelevant as it's way too precise to do, but be my guest and try.

Oh and please explain the floatcancel thing. I know what I am talking about and it doesn't exist. It was like the first thing people mentioned when Brawl was released, floatcanceling is gone.

 

[Meru.]

Then why do I live a Fresh Fair at 140% ledge of FD.

Why ?

And I was saying why landing with Fair is still punishable.

Probably because you're anticipating Fair and preparing to DI/SDI/whatever a few years in advance. Even then I'm not sure on believing you, you're the first one to have got such a low %, both in test and in game Marth usually gets killed WAY earlier. Marth is lighter than Peach >_>

I think Peach players use fair too much in general.

Fair hurts and it's a good punish but every time you use it, you make it exponentially more difficult to kill the guy.

Land and jab instead.

Ouuui

 

[DMG]

Moves that are safer on shield tend to be strong STRONG hits. Puff Dair are weak hits.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Depends, does the last hit of jiggs' fair occur during the AC window? I'm seeing 30 frames of landing lag for jigglypuff's dair and it only does 2% damage, so to be honest it doesn't look good.

2% damage, ends on frame uhh 57 (landing frame+30 frames lag) lol. Not good.

 

[Iota]

What horrible convo did I just read?

 

[-LzR-]

What horrible convo did I just read?

It's just what happens when incorrect information gets spread as facts and when they refuse to admit that they are wrong.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

I don't think Puffs dair as safe as those 3 moves mentioned before. Though the optimal AC for MKs nair is almost irrelevant as it's way too precise to do, but be my guest and try.

Oh and please explain the floatcancel thing. I know what I am talking about and it doesn't exist. It was like the first thing people mentioned when Brawl was released, floatcanceling is gone.

1. Dash (OR DASH HOLDING DIAGONALLY DOWN)
2. Hold down/input press y
3. do steps 1 and 2 but press a while holding forward and press A
4. You are now using her fair on the ground with her dash momentum because instant fair no float
5. Cancel fair on shine
6. USE ANYTHING SHE HAS even taunt can be done ON shine.
7. Notice there is 0 frames of lag
8. try this now with uair
9. Cancel ON hitbox
10. Notice there is 1 frame of lag that can be cancelled with her jab
11. Proceed with bair, but cancel bair with bair across the stage 0 frames of lag
12. Notice this doesn;t work with dair until after the hitbox.

13. For the lolz, input that newly attained ground fair 100 times to go across the stage.

 

[Meru.]

Should I eat my toast with chocolate sprinkles or with fried eggs?

 

[1PokeMastr]

Ike's fully charged Eruption breaks full shields 100% of the time.
Ike for S Tier.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Should I eat my toast with chocolate sprinkles or with fried eggs?

choco sprinkles

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Should I eat my toast with chocolate sprinkles or with fried eggs?

Ew, Dutchling food.