Official BBR Tier List v6

[infiniteV115]

It isn't really that risky unless you put yourself in a position where you can be stagespiked by Shuttle Loop. I've seen Holy run off and attack with ROB as well (and quite a bit, I might add), but not specifically against MK.

 

[zmx]

It isn't really that risky unless you put yourself in a position where you can be stagespiked by Shuttle Loop. I've seen Holy run off and attack with ROB as well (and quite a bit, I might add), but not specifically against MK.

Not to mention even if you do get state spiked you can always tech it. Not easy to do obviously but that'd kind of the point. Get to that level and you won't have to worry about it.

 

[Flayl]

Please someone tell me they thought it was super dumb how many NAir's OCEAN was landing. Because I'm reading these posts and I'm getting angry.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well that too, but even if you tech it you're now (probably) in a position where MK can more easily edgeguard you. I know it's ROB so he'll probably make it back, but he'll probably a decent amount of damage as well.

 

[Kuro~]

It's much safer for someone like rob than say...olimar, falco, snake, etc...just saying. It's not that surprising at all...

Yes m2k was getting hit by nairs by going for SL at the worst times. When all you have to do is play non-commital with upair and dair and you can edgeguard rob easily...

 

[Doc King]

So.......you base it off of how many MUs they win?
lmao get out
Fox does better than D3 in more of those, and he does better against the most common characters. Not to mention you put MK vs D3 as -2.

These are matchups of all of the good characters in the game. They would matter.

and are really good examples. They're very important characters in the game and they both go -1 against while they go +1 against . does not do better than in common matchups. Just look at the results dummy.

Well, is listed as a -2 for . It is a very hard matchup though. Even then, why are we talking about if he's banned?

The thing is that while most of 's good matchups suck, he does have a few good matchups in the top tier (Heck, he even has a solid advantage against someone). however only has like 2 slight advantages from 2 high tiers.

I somehow missed this ironically hypocritical edit of yours. As I previously said (either here or in the DDD Social thread), 's tools as a character -- independent of his grab-related rewards -- are sub-par and much closer to a lower mid-tier character, as opposed to , who is essentially a top tier character with unfortunate chain grabs/locks against him. As the metagame continues, chain grabs become less important (e.g. vs. ) and character attributes become more pronounced. My post was not hypocritical. Rather, you simply failed to comprehend that aspect of it.

You guys can't just ignore weaknesses or strengths just because they're game breaking. Pretty much everyone in Brawl is like that. Like Diddy with his bananas, D3 and climbers with chaingrab, Ike with jab, etc.

Also, the metagame can go aggro too, not just defensive improvemence. And if D3 is losing to characters because he can get chaingrabbed, then you're basically saying that D3's bad matchups will get better.

 

[hunger!]

Olimar is top 3 in this game. with mk or not.

 

[IhaveSonar]

Looking back to the first tier list, I'm amazed at how far ROB has fallen. I mean, just look at his character traits: He's got quick attacks, good range, good weight, good kill power, amazing recovery and aerial game, good projectiles, and an amazing recovery and aerial game.(It needed to be said twice)

I honestly don't understand how manages to be in the middle of the pack. Can someone explain to me why he loses all those matchups?

 

[Flayl]

He can't retreat FAir all that well because of floatiness and air speed. All his kill moves that aren't FSmash are slow to come out, and FSmash is needed for other stuff because of its disjoint (like hitting MK out of tornado).

His big model and floatiness gets him combo'd pretty easily because he doesn't have an emergency aerial to hit sloppy attempts at stringing attacks (like the NAir of many characters)

His laser while having amazing range also has enough startup to the point where if your opponent has enough experience he can recognize the initial animation and shield without getting punished. Gyro doesn't have this problem but ROB needs to be left alone so he can give it enough power. These two problems combined means he gets outcamped by a lot of the high tiers. It doesn't help that his reflector is garbage but can still catch opponents offguard.

He can't airdodge out of UpB without FAir'ing first so if you have enough experience edgeguarding ROB you wont gimp him but you'll still be able to get some "easy" damage on him. Recovering high and wavebouncing gyro increases the guess work which mitigates the problem a bit.

His FTilt is really good for zoning which I feel a lot of people ignore when they talk about the matchup though.

 

[John12346]

If I remember correctly, R.O.B. doesn't have any hurtboxes in his arms, so it gives him some really crazy disjoint to arm-only attacks, like Ftilt, Dtilt, and Dsmash.

I think that's why R.O.B. has such a hax poking game.

 

[phi1ny3]

His tilts/CQC in general are pretty good. They have good disjoints, and are frame-wise near MK level.

 

[Conviction]

Are you that dense you are obviously still missing the point Exdeath was making.

He was saying Fox has better fundementals than King DDD.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

ROB's shield is pretty bad imo

 

[Z'zgashi]

D3 best character in brawl huehuehue

Please stop talking about Dedede for the next 10 pages, it's not getting anywhere and just making people hate you/D3 more.

And ROBs shield is pretty bad. Outside of Yoshi and DKs, Id say its probably the next worse unless im forgetting someone.

 

[C.J.]

Bowser maybe?

I'm really not sure.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bowser's is bad, but ROBs is worse.

 

[Dre89]

But Bowser has a good oos game to make up for it. Not sure about the other chars.

 

[Z'zgashi]

ROB has dsmash which is alright, DK doesnt have anything too extraordinary, and Yoshi has no OoS game at all lol.

 

[smashkng]

ROB has dsmash which is alright, DK doesnt have anything too extraordinary, and Yoshi has no OoS game at all lol.

So killing at like 80% with a reliable move like Punch or Dsmash isn't extraordinary?

 

[Ghostbone]

Can't punch OoS.....
(Well I guess you can but you're doing it while jumping and the hitbox isn't going to be anywhere near where you want it to be)

 

[-LzR-]

DK can't use those awesome smashes OoS to anything not spaced horribly.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well I meant OoS, not in general. DK DOES have good kill moves and power there, but outside of maybe Giant Punch, I dont see any of that being too helpful OoS, and even with that, most characters have at least1 or 2 good things OoS, and DK's only somewhat viable option of doing so requires charging beforehand and is something you usually want to save for kills anyway, that's all I was saying.

 

[Doc King]

Please stop talking about Dedede for the next 10 pages, it's not getting anywhere and just making people hate you/D3 more.

And ROBs shield is pretty bad. Outside of Yoshi and DKs, Id say its probably the next worse unless im forgetting someone.

yo, stop putting words in my mouth, I've never said D3 was the best. I was just pointing out that D3's matchups were better than Fox's with the good characters.

You guys make it look like D3 is like garbage. He isn't a garbage character, neither is he a top dominating character. He's just an alright character. Fox is pretty much the same thing. They both have a couple of severe weaknesses going for them (Fox it's getting chaingrabbed by Pika and Climbers), D3 it's speed.

 

[Z'zgashi]

My god, no one ever said he was bad, im pretty sure 99.9% of us agree he's either High Tier or very top of Mid. Also, this is a discussion for ALL the tier list, not just D3. We know your stance on D3 (probably a little too well tbh), give some other characters a chance to be discussed.

 

[Doc King]

Alright then, lets talk about Wario. Does anyone think that Wario should move down because he seems to not be as good as characters (imo) such as Olimar and Climbers. He could probably be like the top of high tier or the bottom of top tier.

 

[DeLux]

???

Ice Climbers are a bad character though :\

 

[phi1ny3]

but 'dem japeeze peepl sey ther gud. And itz kewl nao 2 liek japeeze stuf

 

[Doc King]

Well, Climbers are the 2nd best characters in Japan.

Climbers are good characters. Their chaingrabs are even more ridiculous than D3's even with slopes.

Japan can just perform their infinites like it was the mach tornado.

 

[DeLux]

Ice climbers being bad has nothing to do with Americans not executing infinites.

They by default lose a game out of a three game set every set.

I've gone over this >_>

 

[Z'zgashi]

I thought Oli was 2nd best in Japan, or is it ICs now? Dunno, but regardless, DeLux, you mad underhype yourself and your character lol. YOU are one of the best ICs and the ICE CLIMBERS are one of the best characters in this game. Every character (well, aside from MK) has his/her bad match ups and their weaknesses, but you over exaggerate how bad those weaknesses on ICs really are lol. Sure, Nana can be stupid as hell sometimes, but you act like she's always that way or that her doing something dumb once is the end for that entire match.

 

[Doc King]

Climbers have the 2nd best matchup spread in the game, 1st being MK. lol.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Match ups arent everything though. You also need results and stuff.

 

[DeLux]

You also need to not symbolically forfeit 1/3rd of your games imo

 

[infiniteV115]

The thing about ICs being 2nd in Japan is, their stagelist is much more conservative, and much more static. Which is exactly what ICs needs. DeLux is right in saying that ICs are essentially guaranteed to lose 1 game, assuming the Unity Ruleset, because the Unity stagelist has stages like RC and Brinstar.

 

[DeLux]

They are dominant game one don't get me wrong and I guess saying they are bad is a stretch. But if people valued matchups in terms of statistical probability of winning still, their matchup spread is incoherent compared to actual results.

They are a limited character and push the definition of "viable" past what it should be

 

[Z'zgashi]

Just pointing out that winning 2-1 is still winning.

 

[Hylian]

Ice climbers are a hard impractical main with Americas stagelist.

They are however probably the best character in the game to have as a secondary, assuming you can play them on a level of skill equal to your main, or on the other end one of the best characters to main if you have a secondary of equal level to your climbers to play on counterpicks(vinnie/esam/myself). It makes them hard to rate as a character themselves when they are reliant on other characters to help them win a set though. Not much margin for error if you only play IC's, you have to play perfectly the first game or lose the set.

 

[DeLux]

A couple thing Zzgashi-

I am not one of the best with ICs. If you stretch it far enough, I might be in the top 10, but that's because people haven't learned that hitting the jump button beats every grab attempt in the game and try to spot dodge for some reason

If you assume they win 100% of the time in terms of probability on starters (which is what you just said by "2-1 is still winning") then I think we can see who's being unrealistic here.

Statistically speaking an IC must win at a 65% clip on game one and game three in order to make up for a 20% chance of winning on game two/opponent's counterpick to have a 50% chance of winning a best of 3 set.

IC's might go 65:35 with people game one and three on their best stages. But having a 50/50 of winning over an extended period of time isn't very viable in terms of winning a tournament.

By in large, if I don't beat someone 70% of the time in practice, I more or less can assume I will lose to them in tournament. No other character is like that.

 

[Doc King]

Well the stages in the unity ruleset, the one fighting the climbers can strike FD, SV, and BF and they don't have Japan legal only stages anymore.

 

[DeLux]

Doc, YI and LC are still REALLY good stages for ICs in some matchups. So are CS and PS1.

If people took me to Lux's Cruise to start the set, I would be ecstatic lol

it's a moot point and if anything would just support me saying ICs are overrated