Official BBR Tier List v5

[DMG]

I think the idea of Wario having a disadvantage against Yoshi is laughable. He jumps circles around you, you're not really allowed to shield, you're fairly easy to edgeguard, and Bite does a number on most of Yoshi's attacks when used right. You can't beat Wario in the air just because he's able to avoid most of Yoshi's air attacks with ease, whereas Wario's air speed allows him to poke rather well. It's at least 55-45 Wario, if not worse for Yoshi.

It's not too bad for Yoshi. Roughly 6:4 overall. If the character had other strong tools besides grabbing against Wario, he's probably go even or have the edge.

It's hard to tell, since Lee only seems to go Lucario when Meta Knight doesn't work (which is smart).

It seems like an even better choice when you compare how much people play against a strong MK vs a strong Lucario. Most people have a ton more MK experience over genuine Lucario experience, that tends to work for him a bit as well.

Trela, Junebug, and Zucco are better Lucarios.
Lee's just an incredibly smart player.

See idk bout that. I'd see them going roughly the same distance in tourney if everyone is sticking 100% Lucario, but Lee's flexibility has always put him a step above most other smashers. Being able to play more than 1 character at a really strong level is hard to pull off, and so far looks like he's done that.

TKD has yet to face any of Fox's bad CP's. Just saying you guys are dumb assuming he would do just as good in another region. WC barely plays Fox CP's. Fox is balls, TKD is just beast. Learn how to differentiate between the 2

Until that happens, Fox will be on the hype train til kingdom come. Even if you send a Shiek or something, people are always gonna throw around the "Well he just got unlucky, Foc's counters are uncommon in tournament. He's a good character."

Niddo, with all things considered, where do you feel Fox belongs in the next tier list?

@ Kain, double-posting ain't cool, bro.

:green:

I'm not Niddo, but I can give you a realistic answer on that one. Fox will either stay in the same spot, or he will rise above the characters just ahead of them because they fell down the list. Mostly talking bout Kirby in particular, I could see Fox rise over him. Besides that, he's not going anywhere.

People don't consider who's ahead of the character they are so intently focused on, that they just assume the character should go up without looking at the big picture and realizing who is above them. It's easy to say "Luigi should move up", but it's much harder to look up and say "Well damn, DK/Peach/Pit/other characters are above me. I don't think I'm a better character than them, that would leave no room for me to go up."

People correlate whether they think a character is overrated or underrated as meaning they should go up/down, instead of asking "Is my character better or worse than those around him, and if so where does he need to move?"

 

[Nestec]

I'm not Niddo, but I can give you a realistic answer on that one. Fox will either stay in the same spot, or he will rise above the characters just ahead of them because they fell down the list. Mostly talking bout Kirby in particular, I could see Fox rise over him. Besides that, he's not going anywhere.

Exactly what I feel. Except with the very slight possibility of Wolf being above him. Either way, I feel like the two should be right near each other.

People don't consider who's ahead of the character they are so intently focused on, that they just assume the character should go up without looking at the big picture and realizing who is above them.

This, x 1000.

---

Btw, I just think it's kind of funny how we have some spots where characters who are related by series seem to be right near each other on the current tier list.

Luigi/Peach/DK
Mario/Bowser
Zelda/Link/Ganon

And this trend will continue if Lucas ends up next to Ness (which I feel will happen) and if Wolf ends up next to Fox (which I feel should happen).

:green:

 

[Deleted member]

Wolf has accomplished a lot more than Fox since the last tier list came out. Wolf should move to be next to Fox, if not above him.

Also, I'm not sure about Lucas. Will he rise or just stay where he is? What about Ness?

 

[Nestec]

Wolf should move to be next to Fox, if not above him.

Agreed.

Also, I'm not sure about Lucas. Will he rise or just stay where he is? What about Ness?

Lucas has been doing work too, probably moreso than Ness.

If it were up to me though, I would say:

Sheik > Yoshi > Ness > Lucas > PT

:green:

 

[Browny]

Wolf has accomplished a lot more than Fox since the last tier list came out. Wolf should move to be next to Fox, if not above him.

No chance in hell.

Whether he should or not is irrelevant, there is just a 0 probability of this happening.

 

[-Mars-]

DMG nobody said Fox should move up. Don't know where you got that from.

 

[Orion*]

No but he's a player that is plenty capable of taking out big names making him a national level player

since melee.. LOL chu is broken.

So if Larry started using MK against Pika that would mean Falco is limited?
Ok

i actually agree with you

This...makes no sense. Larry hasn't done that so what's your point?

i dont see how what he said doesnt make sense... finally LOL

 

[-Mars-]

There's a vid put up 2 weeks ago on tearbears youtube of TKD beating Havoks MK on Green Greens with Fox for those who want to see him on a CP stage.

Search it i'm too lazy to post the link.

 

[Conviction]

There's a vid put up 2 weeks ago on tearbears youtube of TKD beating Havoks MK on Green Greens with Fox for those who want to see him on a CP stage.

Search it i'm too lazy to post the link.

I got you homes.

The video that shows TKD's (Fox???) playing on CP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0p2wpetH4c

Omgz TKD didn't go Meta guyz.

EDIT:
Preti sure these r cps 2
Delfino (didn't go MK): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g5GIFLQNQw&feature=related
Frigate (didn't go MK) lulz~: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inr7XscKql4&feature=related

Yes these are the most recent matches of TKD. I didn't see MK.

Nakat for Brinstar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4B7pCwd51I

Skip past the SV match and you will see RC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGIyIMqYQU4 skip to 3:47

 

[Deleted member]

TKD also will go MK on neutral stages.

It seems to be just whoever he feels like playing, lol.

 

[Conviction]

TKD also will go MK on neutral stages.

It seems to be just whoever he feels like playing, lol.

So with saying that doesn't that fit the same definition Niddo was giving Ally using different characters?

 

[NAKAT]

I don't even need to jump in i'll just let iblis **** on people lol.

 

[Conviction]

Lol it's all good, I got you son.

 

[Spelt]

We should all just stop talking about it.
How are you guys not tired of arguing about it yet?

This thread used to be so interesting and filled with honest conversation and debates and random facts I didn't know and enjoyed learning. I even used some of the MU discussions to help with my own game.

Now this thread is just filled with the same people starting the same 4 conversations over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. They've been driven into the ground so far they are passed china and out of Earth's atmosphere.

 

[Conviction]

Yea, it's annoying, so I got tired of it and said something. Moving on would be nice but some people seem to be set to repeat on their debate.

What characters have been dead in the tourney scene recently?
Are we ever going to have a resource that tells us tourney results again??
Besides the obvious MK CPs , how much do you think stages can effect MUs? What element of stages make characters better suited???

There new things to discuss.

 

[Spelt]

Well, there's coney's thread.
it's not the same but it's the closest we've got. :/

As for dead characters, i haven't heard much of ICs or wario lately.

 

[Conviction]

What about stages and how character abuse/adapt to elements of the stages?

 

[Spelt]

Well that is a rather vague topic. The only thing i could say really is that grounded characters like flat stages and aerial characters like big craycray stages with lots of platforms. But I think aerial characters can adapt fairly well to grounded stages, while it doesn't necessarily work very well the other way around. One of the reasons why brawl is an air game.

 

[Reyney]

We should all just stop talking about it.
How are you guys not tired of arguing about it yet?

This thread used to be so interesting and filled with honest conversation and debates and random facts I didn't know and enjoyed learning. I even used some of the MU discussions to help with my own game.

Now this thread is just filled with the same people starting the same 4 conversations over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. They've been driven into the ground so far they are passed china and out of Earth's atmosphere.

lets talk about sonic then.

 

[DanGR]

Anyone know in how many areas LGLs are very prominent? Anyone keep up with that sort of thing?

I could argue that a couple of our common starter stages should be banned based on precedent, but it's an argument dismissed by tournaments having too low of an LGL limit and/or permitting arbitrary judge rulings about 'stalling'.

 

[Conviction]

lets talk about sonic then.

Get out.

Anyways, why does it seem the popular trend that everyone is saying and looks like it is happening, that mobility helps alot in the current metagame and will the people who figure out how to be most mobile advance the metagame/win?

 

[Xebenkeck]

Here is a topic

Personally i don't think the tier list should reflect how a character does on counter-picks, i'm of the opinion that a tier list is a reflection of how good a character is if two equally skilled players fought, the first match which is on a neutral should be the only thing taken into account, because a counter-pick should in theory tip the match in someones favor, therefore no longer representing the status of the character, rather repesenting the character on his/her counter.

Example, Mk is Top tier when fought on a neutral, but as we have seen, MK is GOD tier on his counter-pick

 

[Ripple]

Here is a topic

Personally i don't think the tier list should reflect how a character does on counter-picks, i'm of the opinion that a tier list is a reflection of how good a character is if two equally skilled players fought, the first match which is on a neutral should be the only thing taken into account, because a counter-pick should in theory tip the match in someones favor, therefore no longer representing the status of the character, rather representing the character on his/her counter.

Example, Mk is Top tier when fought on a neutral, but as we have seen, MK is GOD tier on his counter-pick

that would be a terrible tier list because it only takes the neutral into account. if we had a tier list that was just based on the first match then diddy or falco would probably be first. but those 2 can be cp'd somewhere. MK can't be cp'd at all, in fact, if you cp him somewhere other than a neutral he gains an absurd advantage that no other character will. that's why he's god tier. you have to take into account everything

 

[Xebenkeck]

If a character is bad on the neutrals, it is very likely they are bad on Cp's, like wise the characters good on neutrals, are generally good on cp's. Like i said if cp's tip the favor to one character, therefore the characters are not on equal terms anymore, and thus that data is skewed. A person should win on their cp, it is there to help whomever lost the last match, so if that is true only the first match is what matters. Keep in mind this is still with the assuption that there are two equal skilled players

 

[C.J.]

Tier list is how viable a character is in the metagame (or how "good" they are). The metagame is tournament play. In tournaments there are sets. In sets there are CPs. CPs are part of the metagame. Tierlist reflects that CPs matter.

 

[Xebenkeck]

If that is case then niddo is right, and any character that needs to cp characters, for their second match-up are low tier and unviable, therefore fox is low tier, dk is low tier, etc. They are unviable on thier own. If fox does stay throughout the set, but gets gayed on cp's what business does he have in mid tier?

BTW im just making conversation

 

[Conviction]

>.< I could have swore I gave videos of Foxes not getting ***** on CPs.

 

[Spelt]

BTW im just making conversation

I really hope you are trolling.

If not you are just just extremely ignorant.

Anyways, why does it seem the popular trend that everyone is saying and looks like it is happening, that mobility helps alot in the current metagame and will the people who figure out how to be most mobile advance the metagame/win?

Because in a game of hit and run, being able to run helps a lot. :ledge:

 

[Xebenkeck]

Ok so he does belong in mid tier, but do you see the point im trying to make? Dk Mario Luigi Samus Ness Lucas ROB Bowser, they all suck and are worse than Ganon tier, on the cp they auto lose to anyone who knows how to grab, they all garbs, and unviable, Ganon is more viable. If people are losing to these character they're doing it wrong.

 

[Conviction]

Lol you've lost me.

 

[_Kain_]

When they say CP Iblis I think they mean character not stage, it can apply to both

 

[Xebenkeck]

If someone is smart and says they can switch characters if there oppeonent picks DDD, or Marth, then that reinforces that these characters are garbage, and in a tourney setting are worse then Ganon because they need to switch, come on guyz Ganon will rise at least 8 spots next tier list. JOIN THE HYPE TRAIN PPL

 

[Z'zgashi]

>.< I could have swore I gave videos of Foxes not getting ***** on CPs.

Yeah, Fox vs. ZSS on RC. ZSS is up a stock 2 lives to 1, dies, then SD's at 0%. Go Fox. >.>

 

[Conviction]

When they say CP Iblis I think they mean character not stage, it can apply to both

Thanks for clarifying.

Even by your logic ganon is still worst. LOL ganon has like 20+ CPs.

New topic

 

[DMG]

DMG nobody said Fox should move up. Don't know where you got that from.

KICK START MY HEART HOPE IT NEVER STOPS

OHHH, YEAHH, BABYYYYYYYY

Ok so he does belong in mid tier, but do you see the point im trying to make?

Most people do. There tend to be 2 different sides to that subject:

1. Switching to a CP character is not a really negative quality to have, because it's something any character can do and something that happens realistically quite a bit in tournament. Y character switching to Z character doesn't necessarily make Y bad. In fact, switching characters can make Y look better if you have a secondary to back him up.


2. Switching to a CP character shows signs of deep matchup weaknesses. This character should never see the light of day in tournament, assuming the people around them are competent and CP that character's hardest matchups over and over ruthlessly. Toss him into low tier and be done.


However, both sides take things a bit too far, and neither is correct.

A. The tier list is made assuming the characters are used alone. We're not trying to find out if Fox/MK is better than Diddy/Snake, or if Olimar/IC's are better than DK/Marth. We're not trying to factor in a plethora of CP or secondary options and try to use that to figure out which combinations of 2+ characters are better/worse than the other combinations.



A2. Adding to the first part, evaluating character worth when backed up by a secondary is quite silly. Just about any character with a MK or Top Tier secondary will instantly look better. This line of thinking (I'll just cover my character flaws with a secondary, now my character looks more viable) also feeds itself in a cycle: If player A switches to a secondary to cover his main's matchups, wouldn't player B do the same? What's the most likely choices for secondaries? MK and top tiers basically. Alright, so instead of, say Fox and Pit playing each other, you turn to secondaries and get something like MK vs Diddy, Snake/Falco Dittos, etc.



What does that teach you about Fox OR Pit? Nothing. If using secondaries to "boost" the viability of your main, you also have to assume the same for your opponent. Which means how the f*** are you going to assess that characters viability when all that happens are secondary matchups instead of main matchups?



B. With that said, you cannot entirely write off a character for turning to secondaries as being pure garbage. You cannot use secondaries as a strong boost, otherwise you lose sight of the other characters anyways, and you cannot write off characters who turn to them as utter garbage. What you CAN do is say "Well Fox, you have some issues and problems. I can slightly lessen the severity of those things with a secondary, but doing that cannot inherently remove your flaws altogether."

 

[Xebenkeck]

Even so he has 8 other character that are his equal, why do we still regard these characters as good in a tier list that reflects a set, and a ruleset where infinates are legal. At least Ganon has bad match-ups not auto-lose match-ups. SERIOUSLY IF YOU LOSE TO THOSE CHARS YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG

EDIT dam u DMG ninja`d. But why if we do consider these characters by themselves, if they cannot win on their own, they are not viable, and low or bottom tier. EVEN IF THEY HAVE MID TIER TRAITS. If like CJ said how a character does in a set matters, so if they switch off then either they don`t like the stage or a character doesn`t want to face a bad or unwinnable match-up so they don`t use thier character as they are severly limited, despite appearing good.

 

[Conviction]

DMG did a hella lot better job than I did lol.

EDIT: Are you serious? Ganon has ACTUAL 0-100 MUs. ICs and Sheik are two iirc.

 

[Z'zgashi]

What characters have been dead in the tourney scene recently?

PT, sheik, luigi, peach, pit, kirby, dk, rob, and the low tiers except yoshi

Are we ever going to have a resource that tells us tourney results again??

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=292918

Besides the obvious MK CPs , how much do you think stages can effect MUs? What element of stages make characters better suited???

They can mess with CGs, make AT's possible/not possible/easier/harder/etc., allow infinites, allow better or worse spacing, hazards, etc.

 

[stingers]

PT, sheik, luigi, peach. pit, fox, kirby, dk, rob, and the low tiers except yoshi

3 ROBs

won

tournaments this weekend

How many other characters had 3 mains win a tournament...any weekend?
(screw MK)

 

[Z'zgashi]

Dammit you quoted before i took out fox, I didnt mean to type him >.>

And link to the ROB's results? I haven't heard that yet.