Official BBR Tier List v5

[Nidtendofreak]

the best snake goes MK too, put snake beneath pit too IMO

Best Snake more or less rage quitting Snake =/= Best Fox relying on MK every tournament.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Have you played Lees lucario? lmao I don't think either of them are as good as trela, much less lee.

TRELA! I knew I was missing one of them.

Personally I think all three of them are beyond lees level with the character at this point, but I admit that I may be wrong.

all 3 of them have different strengths and weaknesses tho.

@ niddo,
actually it kind of is = to be honest with you.

 

[Espy Rose]

Trela, Junebug, and Zucco are better Lucarios.
Lee's just an incredibly smart player.

 

[Chuee]

Best Snake more or less rage quitting Snake =/= Best Fox relying on MK every tournament.

What, you mean the two US tournaments the best Fox has been too in the last year LMAO.
oh and pretty sure he went full Fox the ChuDat tourney, except for CPs against Tyrant (which he lost).
So
Yea

 

[etecoon]

Best Snake more or less rage quitting Snake =/= Best Fox relying on MK every tournament.

ally uses MK a lot and has for a long time, he didn't just randomly start using him because one set went badly or anything like that

pit for #2!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

He relies on MK in the vast majority of tournaments he goes to. Wanna make him switch off of Fox? CP a certain stage, or use a certain character. BAM: he's no longer using Fox.

Ally on the other hand, from what I could tell from his posts, is more or less tired of Snake.

First person relies on MK in situations, the second person is just tired of this character and has largely rage quit'd when it comes to using Snake.

Not the same situation. One uses MK out of necessity, the other uses MK for enjoyment.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wait, Reflex, I'm confused. If you don't think Yoshi doesn't own Squirtle (which I personally think he does, but that's besides the point), then why do you think that Yoshi is still such a bad match-up overall? I think that Yoshi's easiest match-up of the 3 is Squirtle and the hardest is Ivysaur, but he still has an advantage over all of them. How would you rate Yoshi's match-ups with the individual Pokemon?

It's about even with Squirtle--Perhaps a slight disadvantage for Squirtle, but nothing big.

I'm not sure whether Ivysaur or Charizard is the worst, but they both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Ivysaur can't really avoid the U-Air once she's in that position, but it's harder to get her there than Charizard, certainly. Yoshi's speed in the air does a lot to hurt Ivysaur, especially since Yoshi's dash attack and grab both do a lot in this matchup, but Ivysaur can stand to trade or outrange; B-Air beats out standard Yoshi fare (though it doesn't do much damage on its own). Yoshi's short-hop pokes are slow, so Ivysaur's worst place to defend can't be abused much. Coming down on Ivysaur could very well get you Up-B'd (probably sour, but an extra 10% is always nice). Yoshi is also a prime target for Bullet Seed, and has trouble recovering against Ivysaur (B-Air screws up jumps, N-Air eats super armor, D-Air is huge, and F-Air hits a Yoshi camping the ledge with eggs). Overall, I'd say it's a slight disadvantage again; I don't think Yoshi does particularly mean things here.

Charizard finds it difficult to outright wall Yoshi, and he gets juggled all day, but smart use of Charizard's standbys works fairly well. Short bursts of Flamethrower, Rock Smash as a counter, N-Air to beat spotdodges, and there isn't a lot that Yoshi can do to safely get past short-hop aerials (though eggs do a number on Charizard, too). Regardless, Charizard is probably the worst of the three here, but...I dunno.

 

[Chuee]

He relies on MK in the vast majority of tournaments he goes to. Wanna make him switch off of Fox? CP a certain stage, or use a certain character. BAM: he's no longer using Fox.

1. AKA Brinstar and RC, because he goes Fox on everything else.
2. Vast majority?
lmao lrn2read. He's been to like two US tourney's in the last year lol. He used MK in ONE set, against Atomsk in the most recent one. He went full Fox the other one except on Brinstar/RC.
The only other tourney's that I know he goes to is Tijuana locals which he uses Fox on everyone except MogX's Kirby. So I guess Kirby must hard counter Fox now.

 

[_Kain_]

TKD has yet to face any of Fox's bad CP's. Just saying you guys are dumb assuming he would do just as good in another region. WC barely plays Fox CP's. Fox is balls, TKD is just beast. Learn how to differentiate between the 2

 

[z00ted]

I'm going to teach everyone how to beat Peach right now.

Everyone knows Peach has insane shield pressure strings that make shielding unsafe, because you either wait out the pressure string and punish when you expect her to stop attacking (usually after jab 1 you spot dodge, or wait out jab 2 and punish it, or roll after the aerial on shield). If she reads your roll, you eat a strong hit or another aerial, and if she reads your wait, you take a lot of shield damage and you're still in a bad position. Thus, usually, it's suggested that you avoid shielding vs Peach.

Here's an easy way that is actually pretty obvious to avoid the pressure string and reset to neutral: when you expect a dair and have to shield, shield the first few hits. Near the end of the attack, release your shield and eat the last hit or two. At high enough percents, you take very little damage and dair's hit doesn't really set you up for anything that's very difficult to avoid.

If you want to be really cool (this is how I usually do it, or how I was doing it the other night anyway lol) shield for the first couple hits, release, and SDI UP and perform your fastest aerial (for me it's uair so it's very easy).

Peach is bad.

$420 Money Match Please.

Your anything vs my Peach.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@Chuee: Not my fault he has to switch to MK at some point in most of the tournaments he goes to. It doesn't matter if the number of tournaments is low: he still does. Apparently, Fox is one of the worse characters in the game when it comes to stages he can use against his opponent. *shrugs*

@Kain: There we go: a nice, simpler way to state things.

 

[Poltergust]

It's about even with Squirtle--Perhaps a slight disadvantage for Squirtle, but nothing big.

I'm not sure whether Ivysaur or Charizard is the worst, but they both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Ivysaur can't really avoid the U-Air once she's in that position, but it's harder to get her there than Charizard, certainly. Yoshi's speed in the air does a lot to hurt Ivysaur, especially since Yoshi's dash attack and grab both do a lot in this matchup, but Ivysaur can stand to trade or outrange; B-Air beats out standard Yoshi fare (though it doesn't do much damage on its own). Yoshi's short-hop pokes are slow, so Ivysaur's worst place to defend can't be abused much. Coming down on Ivysaur could very well get you Up-B'd (probably sour, but an extra 10% is always nice). Yoshi is also a prime target for Bullet Seed, and has trouble recovering against Ivysaur (B-Air screws up jumps, N-Air eats super armor, D-Air is huge, and F-Air hits a Yoshi camping the ledge with eggs). Overall, I'd say it's a slight disadvantage again; I don't think Yoshi does particularly mean things here.

Charizard finds it difficult to outright wall Yoshi, and he gets juggled all day, but smart use of Charizard's standbys works fairly well. Short bursts of Flamethrower, Rock Smash as a counter, N-Air to beat spotdodges, and there isn't a lot that Yoshi can do to safely get past short-hop aerials (though eggs do a number on Charizard, too). Regardless, Charizard is probably the worst of the three here, but...I dunno.

Well, I'm not sure how to respond to that. I really don't have much PT experience, and I can't make any sound judgments until I've played against you (we haven't even done a single match).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

(we haven't even done a single match)

LUCKY YOU, then.

...<3

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The best Lucario player doesn't even main Lucario LOL

What Espy said.

 

[Chuee]

TKD has yet to face any of Fox's bad CP's. Just saying you guys are dumb assuming he would do just as good in another region. WC barely plays Fox CP's. Fox is balls, TKD is just beast. Learn how to differentiate between the 2

There are Fox's that do good in regions with his hard counters.................

@Chuee: Not my fault he has to switch to MK at some point in most of the tournaments he goes to. It doesn't matter if the number of tournaments is low: he still does. Apparently, Fox is one of the worse characters in the game when it comes to stages he can use against his opponent. *shrugs*

LOL
Dude if seen top players of nearly half the cast switch characters when a character good on Brinstar/RC CPs them there.
lmao

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Which is why there are so few people who go solo with a character...

Oh wait, most top level people go solo with one character? That kinda kills that argument. Most people put all of their focus into one character. Name another top level player who switched for specific stages. Not for specific MUs, just for some specific stages.

 

[_Kain_]

Oh yea? Tell me a Fox that has beaten a hard counter in tourny. If your talking about Nakat, hasn't it been decided that MK is pretty even with Fox, therefore not a hard counter?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There are Fox's that do good in regions with his hard counters.................

Like who? Also do they stay Fox or switch off him?

Have you played Lees lucario? lmao I don't think either of them are as good as trela, much less lee.

I dunno, I can understand people saying any of the four being better than the others.

It's debatable.

 

[-Mars-]

For the last time Zeton beat Lains Ice Climbers.

 

[_Kain_]

For the last time Zeton beat Lains Ice Climbers.

That was the first time Lain ever played a Fox. Do you now the next 2 times they played Lain wrecked his **** both times?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

For the last time Zeton beat Lains Ice Climbers.

Ahem

Lain losing to Zeton would only be because of match-up experience. The most recent time lain played Zeton was at HD:R and lain destroyed Zeton.


I played Zeton recently in the losers finals of a tournament as well and beat him 3-1. I won all my matches against him, even on his counterpicks with IC's. He beat my GW on rainbow cruise which is where the 1 loss came from.

Fox pretty much gets destroyed by IC's. Zeton does well in a region full of IC's only if he doesn't have to play any of the IC's.

Look at some of the recent tournament results he's been to:

KMYM2:
1: MJG
2: Hylian
3: Zeton Lost to MJG and myself.
4: Domo
5: Mr. Doom
5: Clel
7: Joker
7: Legan

BRAINSHOCK ALPHA:
1: Kain
2: Hylian
2: MJG
4: Future
5: Mr. Doom
5: Fino
7: yoshq
7: Zeton - Lost to Mr. Doom and myself.


HOT ****INGS: REMIX:
1: Atomsk
2: MJG
3: Hylian
4: Lain
5: Clel
5: Kain
7: Domo
7: Joker
9: Nicole
9: Holms
9: Teh_Future
9: yoshQ
13: vVvFino
13: FAE
13: Moe
13: Mr. Doom
17: Zeton - Lost to Clel and Lain
17: TripleR
17: MegaRobMan
17: Jordan
17: Trent
17: Legan
17: Tmacc
17: Surjan

People forget about this don't they?

 

[-Mars-]

K. it's like an 80-20 MU.

Whens the last time a Wolf ever beat a good DDD?

Edit: yea ive seen all that. Calling matchup inexperience in an 80-20 MU is laughable.

 

[Flayl]

K. it's like an 80-20 MU.

Whens the last time a Wolf ever beat a good DDD?

You like to just walk into this stuff blindly don't you lol

 

[Deleted member]

K. it's like an 80-20 MU.

Whens the last time a Wolf ever beat a good DDD?

Choice vs. Michael Hey.

 

[_Kain_]

K. it's like an 80-20 MU.

Whens the last time a Wolf ever beat a good DDD?

Were not arguing Wolf? Idk why people have a tendency to attack my main whenever I debate another character LOOOOOOOOOL. I've never said DDD isn't bad for Wolf. I'll admit it's more doable then Fox vs IC's. I was doing pretty good against Coney til I SD first match then CPed lylat cause I doubt I would be able to Flash cancel consistently and failed and SD again. I mean he would of beat me regardless but at least it would of been much closer. Wolf just has to camp the hell out of DDD and pick good stages with good platforms.

 

[Chuee]

Name another top level player who switched for specific stages. Not for specific MUs, just for some specific stages.

Rain switched to MK on just about every CP stage at Apex.
I've seen Lain, Meep, and Hylian switch against non-MK characters.
@Kain: Zeton has beaten Lain and KID has beaten PikaPika. Don't know of any others, but honestly I doubt those MU's outside of ICs have been played more than a few times in tourney.
Oh, and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIDngpBkRYc
EDIT: Ryu, he beat Lain before that, and Lain switched game 2 to MK.
Game 1 was actually really close.

 

[-Mars-]

Ok so by your logic Wolf is balls?
Point is nobody wins hard matchups usually....so bringing that up whenever we talk about Fox is pointless.

 

[_Kain_]

Ok so by your logic Wolf is balls?
Point is nobody wins hard matchups usually....so bringing that up whenever we talk about Fox is pointless.

Anyone below C tier isn't really that good cause they have flaws. Their still capable of being able to do well, it's just that much harder for them and the player since the amount of error they can make is slim to none in certain MU's. I'm just saying people are acting like Fox doesn't have those bad MU's LOOOOOOL which is really laughable

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Rain switched to MK on just about every CP stage at Apex.

That's not a specific stage like I asked for. That's a general fear that his character can't handle CPs in general.

 

[Ripple]

And yet Ripple, Dr. Grandpa, and Will do great in a lot of big tournaments.

I'd like to stop having my name in with these good players. I am terrible and am only getting worse. my performance at SIIS has only re-enforced this( got dead last. didn't make it out of pools) . I have not done any thing worth mentioning at a tournament in over a year.

 

[_Kain_]

I'd like to stop having my name in with these good players. I am terrible and am only getting worse. my performance at SIIS has only re-enforced this( got dead last. didn't make it out of pools) . I have not done any thing worth mentioning at a tournament in over a year.

Quit playing melee all day son

 

[da K.I.D.]

if characters could win their bad matchups consistently, they wouldnt be bad matchups.

niddo. ally uses more and more mk every tourney because everyone on the planet and their mothers know how to abuse the hell out of snakes recovery. ive seen ally say on multiple occasions that he plays mk because ~ 30 of the characters in this game, can throw him offstage at like 30 and have him not comeback until like 180, if at all. He plays mk to win, not for fun. so as ete said, apparently pit is second best in this game now.

also, I main sonic, and I pretty much go fox and falco SPECIFICALLY when people cp me to brinstar now.
foxs flaws really arent as bad as people are making them out to be. similarly to sonic, this is why his performance is pretty much blowing peoples prior preceptions of him out of the water...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

if characters could win their bad matchups consistently, they wouldnt be bad matchups.

niddo. ally uses more and more mk every tourney because everyone on the planet and their mothers know how to abuse the hell out of snakes recovery. ive seen ally say on multiple occasions that he plays mk because ~ 30 of the characters in this game, can throw him offstage at like 30 and have him not comeback until like 180, if at all. He plays mk to win, not for fun. so as ete said, apparently pit is second best in this game now.

also, I main sonic, and I pretty much go fox and falco SPECIFICALLY when people cp me to brinstar now.
foxs flaws really arent as bad as people are making them out to be. similarly to sonic, this is why his performance is pretty much blowing peoples prior preceptions of him out of the water...

First section: ...So he's rage quitting Snake like I've been saying several times now. >_>

Second section: Bluntly: I asked for top level players. Not low/mid/high/w/e range you fit into.

His flaws are as bad as people make them out to be, they are simply trying to cover them up with massive overhyping. Like PT. Or Pit.

 

[Savon]

I agree with you about Fox and Sonic K.I.D., but people refuse to update their previous opinions about Sonic and Fox because they are in denial. They are still stuck in that 08-09 mindset when nobody knew what they were capable of. Any achievements that the characters make will be belittled. Sonic could have WON MLG Dallas and people would still be trying to say he is a bad character.

 

[etecoon]

niddo. ally uses more and more mk every tourney because everyone on the planet and their mothers know how to abuse the hell out of snakes recovery. ive seen ally say on multiple occasions that he plays mk because ~ 30 of the characters in this game, can throw him offstage at like 30 and have him not comeback until like 180, if at all. He plays mk to win, not for fun. so as ete said, apparently pit is second best in this game now.

pit on his way up! better than snake today, better than MK tomorrow? YES. WE. CAN.

but seriously this is nothing new, if you've payed attention at all you'd know how much he's complained about this. he went MK because he was frustrated at how easily snake gets abused, he doesn't play MK because it's more fun, he does it because snake has been rapidly becoming less viable at the top level for a while now. the fact that some people still consider snake #2 honestly blows my mind, I really can't comprehend it at all

 

[_Kain_]

pit on his way up! better than snake today, better than MK tomorrow? YES. WE. CAN.

but seriously this is nothing new, if you've payed attention at all you'd know how much he's complained about this. he went MK because he was frustrated at how easily snake gets abused, he doesn't play MK because it's more fun, he does it because snake has been rapidly becoming less viable at the top level for a while now.

Ehhhh...you speak as if you know his thoughts. Pretty sure he is still capable of doing just as well with Snake still, he just doesn't want to deal with it and taking the easy way out.

 

[etecoon]

Ehhhh...you speak as if you know his thoughts. Pretty sure he is still capable of doing just as well with Snake still, he just doesn't want to deal with it and taking the easy way out.

just what I've inferred from his words, obviously no one is a mind reader and I don't know him personally but that's what he's made public anyway, what else could I think?

yes of course it's still possible, just like TKD can win a tournament using a character like fox

 

[Browny]

I agree with you about Fox and Sonic K.I.D., but people refuse to update their previous opinions about Sonic and Fox because they are in denial. They are still stuck in that 08-09 mindset when nobody knew what they were capable of. Any achievements that the characters make will be belittled. Sonic could have WON MLG Dallas and people would still be trying to say he is a bad character.

but... but... their tools are bad!

Ask anyone who says that to actually explain what their tools actually are and how they are bad. Most everything they say is either a lie, or applies to almost all characters.

 

[-Mars-]

Hey people guess what?

Falco gets ***** by Ice Climbers and Pikachu and *gasp* he also does terrible on Brinstar and RC.
Wait isn't he like 4th on the tierlist or something?

Wow thats odd....the way people think around here you would think Falco sucks.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Pit is garb, put him with Falcon in Fail Tier.