Official BBR Tier List v5

[Spelt]

your whole first three tiers are completely the same besides ICs and marth

 

[Deleted member]

And? The characters are where I think they should be.

 

[Brawlin]

Here r the matchups according to Smashwiki: Mk 40:60 Snake 40:60 Diddy 45:55 Falco: 50:50 Marth 40:60 Ice Climbers 20:80 Wario: 45:55 King D3: 45:55 Pikachu: 40:60 Olimar 35:65 Lucario 40:60 Game and Watch: 45:55 Pit: 55:45 Toon Link: 55:45 ZSS: 55:45 Kirby: 45:55 ROB: 40:60 DK: 45:55 Peach: 45:55 Fox: 80:20 Luigi: 40:60 Wolf: 60:40

 

[Z'zgashi]

For who sheik?

 

[-Mars-]

yeah icies hard counter her and then olimar counters her......sounds about right. all of her other matchups are manageable.

 

[Brawlin]

Lol yes forgot to add that. Took me forever to type this up on my phone.

 

[Z'zgashi]

yesss.... i saw **** on fox and a loss to icies so i THOUGHT it was her, looks like i guessed right :D

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Lucario can walking CG Ness and Lucas, but he has to buffer his dash after the release to do it right. Still I've had people jab/spot dodge, but I think that was an error on my part messing up the timing. I still mess up the Uthrow CG on Falcon, Ganon, Fox and Wolf, even if Wolf's is pretty much frame perfect, so I kinda still blame myself on this.

Link get's a free Dsmash out of every grab, which is a kill move provided it's not staled.

I like how some BBR members did their research on characters they didn't know, which is good to show that the mongering many members do isn't warranted to the levels they say.

I still have some grips the on the potential vs proven results thing, but I'll leave it at that.

 

[Brawlin]

Haha yep and @-Mars- Lol i didnt add all the characters because I thought the ones listed(high, upper, middle tiers) were the important ones. They r also not all filled out on Smashwiki but im pretty sure Sheik doesnt have problems with them anyway. Maybe Squirtle but there wasnt a matchup listed for him.

 

[-Mars-]

Yea, Squirtle and Jiggs are hard for Sheik.....but it's not a counter or anything.

 

[NAKAT]

This is my own opinion of how the tier list should look.

Top:
S: Meta Knight

A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, Wario, Marth

High:
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Fox

Mid:
C: Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Kirby, R.O.B., Peach, Pit,

D: Luigi, Wolf, Ike, Sonic, Ness, (Zelda/Sheik) Sheik,

Low:
E: Pokemon Trainerm Yoshi, Lucas, Mario, Bowser

F: Zelda, Captain Falcon, Samus, Link, Jigglypuff,

Booty tier

G: Ganondorf

This was fun lol.


~NAKAT~

 

[Zigsta]

Here's my adventure.



Known ranked PT mainers:
Reflex => #78
Steeler => #721
Blazing Katakiri => #796


That's a HUUUUUUUUUGE difference! Reflex is almost 10 times more successful than the next PT mainer! So, instead of looking for the next ranked PT mainer, I'm going to look for the next ranked PT user, since I found one or two before the next actual mainer...


Known ranked PT users:
Reflex => #78, mains PT
Esca => #255, mains MK, seconds PT
Chuck Nasty => #369, mains G&W, seconds PT


Reflex is still over 3 times more successful than the next PT in line!

For funs and lulz, I decided to look for every other PT user down the list 'til the very end of it. Here's what I found:


Ranked PT users:
Reflex => #78, mains PT
Esca => #255, mains MK, seconds PT
Chuck Nasty => #369, mains G&W, seconds PT
Steeler => #721, mains PT
Blazing Katakiri => #796, mains PT
CHOMPY => #919, mains PT
MaTA => #988, mains PT
vagabond, #1048, mains Snake, seconds PT
Buuda => #1475, mains PT
Andre => #1554, mains PT
Monavie => #2355, mains PT
Aposl => #2791, mains PT
Darrel, => #3072, mains Captain Falcon, seconds PT
Zigsta => #3273, mains PT
THOR => #3746, mains Lucario, seconds PT
SLIM => #3791, mains Olimar, seconds PT
Kith => #4211, mains PT


Out of a total of 4320 ranked players (I am NOT going to open that again! YOU do the next researching!), we see that Reflex is LEAGUES AND BOUNDS better than any other PT user, ESPECIALLY PT mainers, which are the ones who ALWAYS use PT. Those who second PT use their mains mostly (obviously), so they do not count towards his tourney placings.

So, AL, how's that difference in mainers and rankings? Snake mainer differences are totally the same as PT mainer differences, am I right?

That's a dated list. I don't play PT anymore, and I've never seen Esca use PT--he's a Pit and MK player. Also, Chuck Nasty plays MK and GW over PT.

But yes, Reflex is eons beyond any PT out there.

 

[Kitamerby]

Or give me one sonic that replicates what X does.

In the past, there's been Malcolm, Shugo, Espy, and quite a few others, but not on the same calibur as these four. :V

 

[Browny]

I just have a better understanding of my region.

X has been around for a couple months. TKD has been around for years. Im not sure how to make that clearer.

And it certainly was not the same people. Im not sure you understand what a big deal it was for TKD to beat larry. X doesnt have any win that compares.

Are you saying X's beaten larry in tournament? Not to my knowledge. If so then Ill concede the point, but if not then you have little ground to stand on.

ffs

Did I say that?

I cant believe I have to do this because you are so willfully ignorant.

X has been around since brawl was released and has been a top player in his region for years, sitting at #1 PR for a while now. and it MOST DEFINITELY WAS THE SAME PEOPLE. DSF, m1keh4ze, tyr4nt MULTIPLE TIMES hes beaten them all against arguably sonics hardest MUs. not only that, he takes m2k to game 5. I think all those previous wins MORE than compares to 1 defeat of d3hf when youre looking at a decent enough MU for fox.

afaik x has never played d3hf in tournament but thats irrelevant, thats one player and even if he did he still has countless other top players hes beaten which are more of an accomplishment than that.

youre gonna tell me i have little ground to stand on when youre sitting there spouting nothing but lies rofl. goddam do us all BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY yourself and go and spend 5 minutes looking into this before posting about the issue, youll find X's acheivements are equal to, if not MORE impressive than TKD's.

Honestly I think it's only hidden away and super secretive to prevent poor saps from getting blasted before any good discussion can get rolling.

Seeing the unbelievable negativity shown towards opinions only makes me glad the place is closed off. Honestly, in an ideal scenario everything would be openly viewable, but of course this is planet Earth and idealistic scenarios are best left for fantasy.

Teran name search

You know... thats the first actual real reason I've heard as to why the BBR should stay secretive and it makes sense. If only others had the same decency However that wasnt the question... If we are not allowed to know what goes back on in there, can you still blame the public for making assumptions when we have nothing to work off?

 

[T-block]

Kewkky there's a lot wrong with that post... where's Magik on that list? And saying 78th is three times more successful than 255th is silly. Is 1st 15 times more successful than 15th?

Here's my list, if anyone's curious:

1. Meta Knight (-)
2. Snake (-)
3. Diddy Kong (-)
4. Falco (-)
5. Marth (+1)
6. Wario (+1)
7. Pikachu (+2)
8. Ice Climbers (-3)
9. Captain Olimar (+1)
10. King Dedede (-2)
11. Mr. Game & Watch (+1)
12. Zero Suit Samus (+3)
13. Donkey Kong (+5)
14. Lucario (-3)
15. Toon Link (-1)
16. Pit (-3)
17. R.O.B. (-)
18. Fox (+2)
19. Luigi (+2)
20. Kirby (-4)
21. Zelda/Sheik (x)
22. Sheik (+2)
23. Peach (-3)
24. Wolf (-1)
25. Ness (+2)
26. Pokémon Trainer (-1)
27. Yoshi (+4)
28. Ike (+2)
29. Sonic (-3)

30. Lucas (-1)
31. Jigglypuff (+4)
32. Mario (-)
33. Captain Falcon ()
34. Link (+3)
35. Samus (-1)
36. Bowser (-9)
37. Zelda (-1)
38. Ganondorf (-)

 

[-Mars-]

afaik x has never played d3hf in tournament but thats irrelevant, thats one player and even if he did he still has countless other top players hes beaten which are more of an accomplishment than that.

Yea he has. Couple times I think....although the first time he didn't know Japes was Falco's best stage so DEHF cp'ed it against him.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

So TKD can raise Fox by winning but Reflex wins and PT goes do.... Hey BBR you got some xplaining to do.

Weren't you reading earlier? its because the BBR decided that Fox doesn't have a bad jump. (semi - sarcasm)


I still don't understand why we are arguing about the tier list involving the players, when it should be based on the rule set, metagame, and tools of the character.

 

[MKOwnage]

Just a little more Peach. You can do it!

 

[Brawlin]

I agree with TheOriginalSmasher. There is more to a character's placement on a tier list other than tournament results.

 

[Deleted member]

Weren't you reading earlier? its because the BBR decided that Fox doesn't have a bad jump. (semi - sarcasm)


I still don't understand why we are arguing about the tier list involving the players, when it should be based on the rule set, metagame, and tools of the character.

Because it says in the first post that the BBR based Fox's rise partly on watching TKD.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Here's my list, if anyone's curious:

36. Bowser (-9)
37. Zelda (-1)
38. Ganondorf (-)

Ok, I don't get it. Why bowser? I cannot really see anything of bowser's being that bad to warrant being close to ganon.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Because it says in the first post that the BBR based Fox's rise partly on watching TKD.

Are they watching TKD to learn more about Fox? or just because TKD is doing well in tournaments? It isn't fair if a character is risen on the tier list because a good PLAYER is playing him.

 

[Albert.]

I do have to admit that Adum using a phrase like "culture of mediocrity" and making it work was pretty nice.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think the biggest reason fox was considered for a rise while sonic wasn't was the accout of experience in the MU. While DEHF was pretty inexperienced in the MU, many people told me that Tyrant and Havok know this MU from playing TKD maaaaaaaaaany times in the past, and they both still have trouble with this MU. It comes across in an odd form of consistency when you have two people who are good/top players, both have a strong base in the MU, and will still drop games to this character. In X's case, however, most of WC had never played against sonic or invested against this character, so they got rattled pretty hard, and this was combined with X's really strong playstyle.

 

[T-block]

Well...positions are all relative. I feel the characters above him have better tools. My list only shows the order... he's not necessarily close to Ganondorf =P Bowser was very close to being ahead of Samus though...the two are basically interchangeable on my list.

Bowser just... what does he have going for him? Grab release shenanigans, and a great up-b OoS. Apart from that, he's a huge target with very low mobility, which is never a good thing. Matchup wise, he loses hard to the top tiers, and he doesn't exactly dominate low tier either... in fact, I think a lot of low tiers have an advantage over him.

 

[Espy Rose]

In X's case, however, most of WC had never played against sonic or invested against this character, so they got rattled pretty hard, and this was combined with X's really strong playstyle.

That WOULD be a convincing argument if X had started LOSING against the West Coast.

It doesn't work any more. X has been consistent enough in his victories against DSF and Tyrant alone to suggest that arguing for the "match up experience" scenario is fruitless.

Besides, last time that argument was suggested, blood was spilled.

 

[Browny]

Phil... you disappoint me

Either the people he beat were bad players (also applying to TKD's acheivements here), or he (and by association, Sonic) are too good. Whats it gonna be? You cant be a good player and lose repeatedly to a bad character and john about MU inexperience; that's a perfect paradox.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh, then in that case I guess it was just a call of what exactly happened when they were reviewing the characters.

I kinda lost track of X's record after early Summer lol, my bad

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Well...positions are all relative. I feel the characters above him have better tools. My list only shows the order... he's not necessarily close to Ganondorf =P Bowser was very close to being ahead of Samus though...the two are basically interchangeable on my list.

Bowser just... what does he have going for him? Grab release shenanigans, and a great up-b OoS. Apart from that, he's a huge target with very low mobility, which is never a good thing. Matchup wise, he loses hard to the top tiers, and he doesn't exactly dominate low tier either... in fact, I think a lot of low tiers have an advantage over him.

he can get lucky with a kill and bowsercide the rest.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Bowser just... what does he have going for him? Grab release shenanigans, and a great up-b OoS. Apart from that, he's a huge target with very low mobility, which is never a good thing. Matchup wise, he loses hard to the top tiers, and he doesn't exactly dominate low tier either... in fact, I think a lot of low tiers have an advantage over him.

I suppose you have a point there. Grabs are not all that useful if you never get them. Look at wario and playing against the ICs. I suppose the only great things going for bowser are heavy weight, decent horizontal recovery, and defence game. However, defence game without the ability to cause approaches or to approach is pretty bad. Zelda is the living proof of that. She could be great on defence, but no one ever has to be against her.

I guess I would like to see more about bowser before saying anything about him too much. At least a lot of the low tier has some sort of fanbase to build off of. I cannot find too many that use bowser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmvttWGDdFk&fmt=18 koopa claw seemed surprising easy to get a hold of o.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrq4kTH-Y80&fmt=18 just lol

 

[Inui]

I see that the BBR's knowledge of low and mid tiers has only gotten worse without people like me and Xyro there. Oh well. Hopefully the terrible mistake with Ike gets fixed in the next list.

 

[Deleted member]

I see that the BBR's knowledge of low and mid tiers has only gotten worse without people like me and Xyro there. Oh well. Hopefully the terrible mistake with Ike gets fixed in the next list.

Tier lists don't matter. It's not a big deal.

 

[The Truth!]

ffs

Did I say that?

I cant believe I have to do this because you are so willfully ignorant.

X has been around since brawl was released and has been a top player in his region for years, sitting at #1 PR for a while now. and it MOST DEFINITELY WAS THE SAME PEOPLE. DSF, m1keh4ze, tyr4nt MULTIPLE TIMES hes beaten them all against arguably sonics hardest MUs. not only that, he takes m2k to game 5. I think all those previous wins MORE than compares to 1 defeat of d3hf when youre looking at a decent enough MU for fox.

afaik x has never played d3hf in tournament but thats irrelevant, thats one player and even if he did he still has countless other top players hes beaten which are more of an accomplishment than that.

youre gonna tell me i have little ground to stand on when youre sitting there spouting nothing but lies rofl. goddam do us all BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY yourself and go and spend 5 minutes looking into this before posting about the issue, youll find X's acheivements are equal to, if not MORE impressive than TKD's.

I think youre misunderstanding the comparison. TKD has been around socal and has at least used Fox for a long time. Reflex has done the same in GA and at some of the bigger events he attends. While X may have been around Utah for awhile, in SoCal Sonic is a novelty. If he can stick around and pull out consistent results, then Id say yes, sonic does deserve a rise in the tier list.

And why bring up larry? Because of anyone in socal he's the most consistent against the entire cast of characters. It's also one of the best single examples you could have of having character depth, aka being able to beat characters that arent MKs. In that sense I dont even think X is sonics best representative.

Also, your wording is odd. You seem to concede that Sonic should have a difficult time vs MK, while most agree that Fox does well enough vs MK. Additionally you seem to imply its ok for TKD to win vs Larry because Fox vs Falco is fairly even, while Sonic vs Falco is not? This is exactly why people are saying Fox deserves his spot...

Edit: I really dont think its a stretch at all to say sonic is a novelty in socal even now.

You cant be a good player and lose repeatedly to a bad character and john about MU inexperience; that's a perfect paradox.

Repeatedly? Hasnt it been two maybe three times? iirc hes also lost to some of these same people.

 

[Mota]

Tier lists do matter when it comes to what characters are allowed in Low Tiers

 

[Browny]

I dont care about how well people 'think' certain characters do vs others, results speak infinitely more than words do, which is true because words are worth exactly nothing so diving by them gives an infinite number. You could think fox beats MK and snake, but he will still be an average character. I care about the fact that you try to undermine X's acheivements as some sort of fluke and that he 'doesnt have any win that compares'. Hes done things few can ever hope to say about their acheivements in brawl. Doing it Sonic is no joke.

 

[The Truth!]

I'm not trying to undermine his achievements. X is an exceptional player. But you can't compare him to TKD yet. Im sure if you asked around socal, where all of this is actually taking place, a great majority of players would feel the same way I do about Sonic vs Fox.

No, actually this is based primarily on veril's research, the default pattern is based primarily on lightstepping, which is why it's so ridiculously difficult to perform.

Care to explain how it works a little more? I think many pika mains would be curious to know.

And thanks DMG and Inferno for explaining the tier voting. Are there any sort of results for that?

 

[Dark.Pch]

The smash community is really something else. Do you people just randomly pick a character to boost like crazy that don't even show work for it for each tier list?

Fox over Peach and DK? I read the reason for Fox boost. Not only is it hypocritical, But if you were to apply that to alot of characters, they would be higher as to where they are.

Ingnoring match ups with a character to make his other traits look good and stand out? Thats the lowest I have ever seen be pulled off on a tier list. Lets ignore How Peach is not a beast of a killer then. Lets ignore that DK Gets chain infinite by DDD. Lets ignore that Falco can camp well but is not that good at killing. Lets ignore that Link has a bad recovery.

Funny thing is, you guys don't. Yet with Fox you look bypass the important factors Just to say he is under ratted and and he is better than Peach/DK? On top of that, Peach has not moved yet again? Each tier list season Peach has done better in tournies. Yet once again, still does not move. What lame excuse you have this time?

And since you wanna aplay this "Lets bring up this top Fox to show how good he is and boost him up" Game. Werent excel and Edresse show what Peach is really able to do? Really Excel? He Peach was nearly onmatched compared to other peaches and nearly used her to her full power. ( I say full cause he doid not really use things like bone walking and free pulling, with seriously help Peach game out alot) And yet she did not move still.

People go on about results and all that. But this tier list and the past ones have been so hypocritical to that rule. What are you guys doing? How full of it can you guys really be up to this point. Like seriously. You guys really pay attention to what you WANT to pay attention too.

 

[TKD]

I like that this thread turned so much into the topic of how awesome I am. Why don't we talk about how I know the game well, but won't tell you stuff because you won't believe it?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I like that this thread turned so much into the topic of how awesome I am. Why don't we talk about how I know the game well, but won't tell you stuff because you won't believe it?

Let me ask you a question, cause this community is lost. And I might get a bias answer from you too? But you really think Fox belongs where he is?

 

[.AC.]

he belongs higher!