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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
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lordhelmet
Smash Master
That was obviously an exaggeration. My point still stands, however. 10 free frames from a ground release is too exploitable.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Well, if I was in the BBR, this is how I would structure my tier list.
OK, commence with the critiquing, if you wish.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Edit: ouch weird double post
Poltergust, only thing I disagree with your tier list is that ZSS is pretty high. It's just my opinion, but I don't feel like I'm using a high tier when I'm using her.
Otherwise, Kirby is 13-15, so your tier list is good with me.
Otherwise, Kirby is 13-15, so your tier list is good with me.
Poltergust
Smash Master
It could be because I played with Nick Riddle a lot. I'm sure she deserves her placing there, though.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I kept asking you the same question because I wanted to see your response and make sure you would respond to it. If you're going to go by points and points only then I'll have to reject that also. Points do not tell us the whole thing. Especially if we consider the different factors that influence the points. If we look at a guy like lets say nick riddle who has less first plays than dojo but has more points than dojo does that automatically make him more successful then dojo ? I don't think so. I don't think you can not factor how where they place and how many events they've been to. Also you seem to not understand how the points going since you claim that it only affects your placing and the amount of tourneys you've been to when in actuality it also matters the size of the tournament of which you've attend.Sorry about that Auspher. I'll change him and put in keitaro then. *edited previous post*
Hmm...
Rankings, as well as points, which shows how successful they are:
Ranked MK mainers:
M2K => #1, 6332.65 points, 28 events ranked
Tyrant => #2, 3013.18 points, 27 events ranked
Dojo => #3, 2390.73 points, 12 events ranked
Ranked Snake mainers:
Ally => #1, 5155.21 points, 29 events ranked
Fatal => #2, 1885.97 points, 30 events ranked
Razer => #3, 1783.04 points, 20 events ranked
Ranked Diddy mainers:
ADHD => #1, 3392.00 points, 30 events ranked
Gnes => #2, 2802.96 points, 22 events ranked
NinjaLink => #3, 1383.16 points, 17 events ranked
Ranked Falco mainers:
DEHF => #1, 2480.67 points, 18 events ranked
Arty => #2, 899.59 points, 17 events ranked
keitaro => #3, 644.28 points, 21 tourneys ranked
===========================================================
SIDE NOTE: Let's organize them in a list as well, from most successful to least successful, in the top 82 (lowest 3rd Falco main), for purposes of tier list discussion:
As we can see, MK is clearly #1, Snake and Diddy are interchangeable for #2 and #3, and Falco remains a sound #4, when it comes to their 3 best mainers' tourney performance.
===========================================================
M2K is 2.1 times more successful than Tyrant (a bit over twice the points), and Tyrant is 1.26 times more succesful than Dojo (small difference).
Ally is 2.73 times more successful than Fatal (almost triple the points), and Fatal is 1.06 times more successful than Razer (very small difference).
ADHD is 1.21 times more successful than Gnes (small difference), and Gnes is 2.03 times more successful than NinjaLink (a bit over twice the points).
DEHF is 2.76 times more successful than Arty (almost triple the points), and Arty is 1.40 times more successful than keitaro (notable difference).
In conclusion, I can safely say that M2K/Ally/DEHF are not 3 times more successful than the ones who come after them. The closest ones to be true to this statement is Ally and DEHF.
Have you noticed that the closer to the top the players are, the more unstable the point gain is (can you find 2 people with the same score near the top, like the scores near the bottom of the list)? It means that it's actually NATURAL to have a large point difference over the next top mainer, but only when you're at the upper part of the rankings list... Therefore, Ally and DEHF having that large of a point difference over their successors is not out of the ordinary. However, since DEHF is lower in the list than Ally, and DEHF's successor is far lower in the list than Ally's successor, he is shown to be more of an outlier for Falco, than Ally is for Snake.
Success is measured by the points in the right. It's an equation that correlates the number of top placings to the number of tourneys attended, and measures it in points which are used to determine the success of the player in the competitive scene.
If you're talking about wins, well there's no doubt that M2K will have more than 3 times the wins of Tyrant. Tyrant WILL lose if M2K appears in the same tourneys he's participating in. Think about it this way... If M2K went to the same tourneys as Tyrant did, and M2K took all the wins and Tyrant took all the 2nd places, would you say that M2K is FAR better than Tyrant, due to M2K having all the #1 spots and Tyrant having all the #2 spots? Or would you say that they're close to each other due to the number of top spots in a tourney correlated to the number of tourneys attended? I'm leaning all the way towards the latter, what about you?
Well, now it's top 82 due to the information Auspher brought me. I chose 82 because it's where the 3rd best mainer of the four I'm measuring is located at... Which turns out to be Falco. I wanted to choose 3 examples per character is all.
If M2K/Ally/ADHD/DEHF went to the same tourneys as Tyrant/Fatal/Gnes/Arty went respectively (meaning MK to MK, Snake to Snake, Diddy to Diddy, Falco to Falco), and they would win according to their rankings position (the best character mainers always taking #1, while the second best character mainer always takes #2), would you say that since the best character mainers have all wins and no seconds, while the second best character mains have no wins and all seconds, that they're infinitely better than their successors? As far as I'm aware, the runner-ups for best character mainers do their best when their character's best mainer is absent. If their best mainer is in the same tourney, chances are that they will not gain that win and instead gain a 2nd place or lower, since there's a clearly more skilled opponent than them in the tourney now that's more likely to take the #1 spot.
This is why we look at the points, rather than the 1st/2nd/3rd places when comparing players. It's designed to be used to compare players, the 1st/2nd/3rd places data is designed to show how successful they are in a tournament setting full of characters, including the same one. The best mainers will have more points, the 2nd best mainers will have the 2nd best points, etc etc etc... It's only logical.
Uhh, this is the 3rd time you asked me this question. o_o
*directs to previous write-ups*
That's why I wanted to know what makes player Y more successful than player X. So M2k is at a rate of 2x and ally is at 3 times the next snake and so is DEHF. Also i didn't included ADHD because I've already said how well represented they were by their character. Then we'll need to not only factor in tourney but regions. Regions for the simple fact that you claim the handful of times when M2k and Lee martin have been to the same tourney has skewed the results. Which in itself is not true. If we look at the tourneys attend how many teams the #1 player was at the same tourney as the #2 player then check the results. It's not enough for us to come be able to say that their results have been changed because of this. When even in their regions they lose. The exception to this is m2k and ally. It is rare for them to lose in their respective regions.
So instead of a 3 point drop for MK there's a 2 point gap and for snake and falco there's a 3 point gap and for Diddy there's barely any gap from the #1 ranked player and the #2 ranked player. So are you really willing to drop PT in ranking because the #1 player is ranked 3 times higher 3 more successful then the 2nd ranked highest player however be unwilling to do the same for other characters ? If you are willing to drop PT's status because Reflex is too good then you should be willing to drop Falco and Snake and not to mention the other characters that weren't brought up. However, the people in the BBR do allow individual performance to weigh heavily in their mind if they didn't then there would of been no reason to have moved Sonic up because of the things that X has done.
I don't know Espy I don't think you're bad rep for sonic you do place well. However, if X does do so well with him I doubt sonic would go up. It's not a knock on you in away shape or form.
Ehh theres quite a few others :3 but I think he's top of low or bottom of mid.
I think Reflex said that Lucas can slide out of zard too but idk .-.
It's funny that Lucas slides further than Ness.
Sakurai's hidden message that Lucas > Ness
Its honestly a lot less exploitable than you'd think. It's sort of like CF being CGed by certain characters because of his weight.
Also, why does everyone hate Sheik so much ;_;
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Exactly, hence why I'm deferring this rather then dealing with it at the moment.
I'm a proactive kind of guy, rather then trying to manufacture things out of thin air, I like to create conditions which will prove my point.
It is my firm belief that jiggs is not being properly utilized and that's why her tournament results are so abysmal (that and a culture of mediocrity on the jiggs boards).
However, I recognize analysis based arguments will not sway you, even though I consider them highly valid.
Therefore as I said, I take your challenge and defer it, you'll have to wait for your results, but you'll get em.
Brawlin
Smash Journeyman
Lol i like JustBlaze's and Spelt's tier lists. I might post my own tier list up here tomorrow. not gonna try on this phone.
Poltergust
Smash Master
I would have put Lucas in the bottom of mid-tier if he had the tournament results to prove that he should be there. As of right now, his results are very lacking.
Come on, Lucas mains. You can do better. I'm positive of that. ^_^
We're so unlucky lmao.
Like a year or so ago we had Oats, Tyr, and Galeon all placing well and then.
Oats quit.
Tyr quit.
Galeon went like inactive.
Yeah lmao.
but we're getting better now.
FAE placing really well.
Galeon placing again.
PF doing good whenever he goes to tournies lol.
Like a year or so ago we had Oats, Tyr, and Galeon all placing well and then.
Oats quit.
Tyr quit.
Galeon went like inactive.
Yeah lmao.
but we're getting better now.
FAE placing really well.
Galeon placing again.
PF doing good whenever he goes to tournies lol.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Accurate tier list.
Chuue, keep dreaming son.
Chuue, keep dreaming son.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
dont forget about mekos. he is very good.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Even if it's written by two different people it's not an excuse. If you're going to make something for the community can you at least have your act together ?No 1 gave it the look over and thought hey these two paragraphs are contradictory as hell. Eh screw it no 1 really reads the **** any ways maybe they'll just take our word as gospel. But you guys need to get yall act together especially if you want to be taken more seriously and are supposed to be setting the guidelines for the community you may want to be on the same page.
Also I didn't realize that MM's factor into tier list. So now we have have MM's tourney results, and a characters potential as the factor and guidelines you guys go buy when yall make a tier list. Ah I see, also I'm not upset I don't play PT nor do I even care for him I however, do not like or understand the *** backwards thought process of the BBR. So my attempt to understand/figure out you guys come up with the ruleset and the tier list.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Troll more?
I just think you have a serious case of a denial here man.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11271682&postcount=609
Lucas isn`t some unsung hero, I`m afraid he`s just a mediocre character.
I just think you have a serious case of a denial here man.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11271682&postcount=609
Lucas isn`t some unsung hero, I`m afraid he`s just a mediocre character.
RATED
Smash Lord
I cry everytime that people put Marth over Wario in "their tierlist" yeah and that's including you Kewkky. wtf.
Brawlin
Smash Journeyman
Sheik could be top of mid tier, but she just has bad matchups in the upper tiers. Also some slightly dusadvantageous for her in the mid tiers. Ice Climbers r just extremely bad for her. But she does really well against Fox tho lol.
Actually if that dag on list was ever updated im pretty sure we would be around where Ness is thanks to a few Lucas' doing well ;DI would have put Lucas in the bottom of mid-tier if he had the tournament results to prove that he should be there. As of right now, his results are very lacking.
Come on, Lucas mains. You can do better. I'm positive of that. ^_^
We are slowly doing better ;3c
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
When compared to overall growth from tier list #1 to tier list #5, Sonic and Olimar are tied for the most growth and Zelda has dropped the most.
Also, I personally think that Sheik/Zelda should be higher, mainly because that's my main and I feel that way. Hard part about tier lists though is.... everyone feels the same way as I do.
All we need is someone to prove that they're really good. I doubt I will be a civilian long enough to do so though.
Also, I personally think that Sheik/Zelda should be higher, mainly because that's my main and I feel that way. Hard part about tier lists though is.... everyone feels the same way as I do.
All we need is someone to prove that they're really good. I doubt I will be a civilian long enough to do so though.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
me too but then again Marth is overrated.
Im sorry I have to tell you this, but Ness is mediocre too.
Inb4nessistopofmid
Pika and Icies which to be honest aren't seen very frequently.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Ness is mediocre but Lucas is far worse. I never said he was top of mid... infact I think he`s perfect where he is now.
RATED
Smash Lord
Peach is good, but not THAT good.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Both of which you can switch to Zelda for.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
lucas is not far worse than ness
Like I said before, the points are a result of factirong in both tourney placings, and tourneys attended.
Also, think about it this way... If Dojo has 5 #1 spots in small tourneys, and Nick has 5 #2 spots in large tourneys, which ones should count the most? Who's the most successful one? Who's the most skilled, and who best proves his skill? That's a very likely scenario that happens every day a tourney happens, and it's not a stretch thinking that maybe Nick's ranked higher than other people because of that same reason.
The size of a tourney is a given, it obviously goes unsaid. If I mention it or not it's still obvious that they matter, it's like me saying "Pikachu beats Fox" after an extensive covering of the MU, then you saying "But what if I camp all the time?". I'm sure we all know that in any Fox vs Pika MU, the possibility of Fox camping Pika is such an obvious given, that no one has to mention it... Just like how big tourneys mean more than small tourneys.
Regions shouldn't be factored in, only tournaments. Simply because you live in X region doesn't make you better than the player who lives in Y region. HOWEVER, if you place better than another player in different large-scale tourneys and your player ranking says so, then chances are that you're better than the other player. Region doesn't factor in at all, it's only how you do in tourneys, and how consistent with your results you are.
I explained this, AL. I said that "near the top of the list, point gaps are very common". It's because they factor in how many matches you went through in a tourney to end up at your placing, and how many tourneys you've entered. The more tourneys you go to, and the larger the tourneys you go to are, the more matches you'll find yourself playing. The more you win matches in every tourney, the more it's reflected on your player rankings, in the form of the points I used... Near the bottom of the lst we have people who barely ever win matches, and near the top of the list we have people who win the majority of their matches. At the bottom, people tend to have an equal amount of matches won and tourneys attended, while near the top, players tend to have a different amount of matches won and tourneys attended due to traveling to OoS tourneys and doing well on those same tourneys. If you have the best character mainer visit the 2nd best character mainer's regions' tourneys, the 2nd best mainer will most probably have a harder time winning due to there being yet another more skilled player in the tourney, and one who knows his character better than he does. It's only logical.
By the way AL, a good way to persuade me is to use data too. You're talking about it, but I don't always have it with me. If you can show me how exactly are you forming your opinions (like I did in the other replies I did before), maybe I can understand your point of view. But right now, when all you do to try and persuade me is write text about numbers and leave out the numbers, it looks like you're wrong.
If you think Ness is perfect where is and Lucas is far worse, I can't even imagine where you think he is LOL.
but Im just going to ignore most of your posts because you sound like a really biased ness main that likes to **** on Lucas for absolutely no reason.
Brawlin
Smash Journeyman
@-Mars- Smashwiki doesnt have her matchups right I guess then lol. I think some people say that the character matchups on there aren't completely accurate tho.
Oh and AL, you have to understand. If the leak hadn't happened (or at least hadn't been so obvious), we would've had time to recheck everything and make sure it was perfect. I distinctively remember every BBR member saying "the tier list is done, but the presentation is still under way". When the leak happened, we decided to release it sooner than planned because, well, people were already seeing the tier list and voicing their opinions everywhere instead of in a single thread.
If the leak hadn't happened, we would've taken our time making sure we didn't have mistakes like that one. In that phase, we do the write-ups and look for loopholes so that we don't end explaining something more extensively than what we should've explained. It was a rush job pretty much, even though the messages were still in the write-ups (but in the form of badly constructed write-ups of course).
And RATED! We both have different opinions, you can't expect me to think the same way as you. You use different characters so you seem them in a different way than I do.
If the leak hadn't happened, we would've taken our time making sure we didn't have mistakes like that one. In that phase, we do the write-ups and look for loopholes so that we don't end explaining something more extensively than what we should've explained. It was a rush job pretty much, even though the messages were still in the write-ups (but in the form of badly constructed write-ups of course).
And RATED! We both have different opinions, you can't expect me to think the same way as you. You use different characters so you seem them in a different way than I do.
RATED
Smash Lord
dude, I am posting this here bcuz is easier so you WILL read it since you are not online in MSN.
Call Jenssen tomorrow (today).
also Why do you think Marth should be Higher than Wario? I Really want to know ( not in a bad manner) post it here, or tell me today later at my home.
Brawlin
Smash Journeyman
My phone wont let me edit my last post. Anyway, @ AlmostLegendary i was just talkin about Sheik herself lol. Using Zelda against disadvantageous matchups for Sheik is probably why the BBR decided to add Zelda/Sheik as 1 character.
. Anyway, @ AlmostLegendary i was just talkin about Sheik herself lol. Using Zelda against disadvantageous matchups for Sheik is probably why the BBR decided to add Zelda/Sheik as 1 character.
All right, I bet I'll have money.
I'll tell you at your house, since I'm pretty tired already. It's easier through the internet since we don't interrupt each other while talking, but ehhh, I've been in SWF all day and I need a break (who has the most posts in this thread right now? Hohoho!).
O really? who are the other characters that people say counter Sheik on there? If you don't mind me asking.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Welp, might as well post a list.
Top:
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Ice Climbers, Marth
High:
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
Mid:
C: Toon Link, Kirby, R.O.B., Peach, Pit, Wolf, Fox
D: Donkey Kong, Luigi, (Zelda/Sheik), Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness
Low:
E: Pokemon Trainer, Lucas, Yoshi, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda
Sauce tier:
G: Ganondorf
Top:
S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Wario, Ice Climbers, Marth
High:
B: Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus
Mid:
C: Toon Link, Kirby, R.O.B., Peach, Pit, Wolf, Fox
D: Donkey Kong, Luigi, (Zelda/Sheik), Sonic, Ike, Sheik, Ness
Low:
E: Pokemon Trainer, Lucas, Yoshi, Mario, Bowser
F: Captain Falcon, Samus, Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda
Sauce tier:
G: Ganondorf
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