Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Thebest1pj]

toon links would be winning tournaments all over the place if there were 4 metaknights beating him like a red headed step child every time he gets more the 2 rounds into a tourney.

falco and olimar get to us before the mks do.

 

[Seagull Joe]

How the heck is anyone supposed to catch TL? >_>'

I just let him come to me. Wolf beats Tl lmao. Guess reflector and weight of Wolf too good .

 

[Thebest1pj]

wolf vs tl is even pride mm joe les get it.


afk tho

 

[Steam]

I think Lucario has a slight advantage on tink. I've personally found lucario's quick dash startup to be hella useful for getting in since he can quickly dash>PS stuff. and there's also the obvious Tink camps, Luc is slow, Tink can't kill, lolaura stuff.

inb4everyonebeatstink

 

[Hylian]

falco and olimar get to us before the mks do.

Match 3 of the set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwK9qo2oQo

What I do wrong?

 

[z00ted]

I think Lucario has a slight advantage on tink. I've personally found lucario's quick dash startup to be hella useful for getting in since he can quickly dash>PS stuff. and there's also the obvious Tink camps, Luc is slow, Tink can't kill, lolaura stuff.

inb4everyonebeatstink

Lucario has a pretty big advantage on Toon Link from what I've seen between Trela and Jerm.

I could never see it being even or even slightly in Lucario's favor.

 

[BSP]

Match 3 of the set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwK9qo2oQo

What I do wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwK9qo2oQo&feature=player_detailpage#t=273s

That was pretty sick

dem projectile combos :o

 

[Hylian]

Well since I've been uploading the set so far here is match 4,

Pertains to the MK vs TL discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG1N1AykPgw

 

[Alphicans]

I am beginning to think GaW goes even with tlink now. Us being able to catch him is very valuable. His projectiles are easy enough to avoid, but his sword still beats us. Factor in the kill power disparity, and I'd say it's even.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

From the vids I've seen, Trela got the key damage and hits when they needed to count at high %.

Trela might be a bit better than Jerm, at least this is what I'm seeing from the vids I'm finding of the two playing against each other.

I don't think it's MU though, seems more like the players when against each other. Then again you might know this better than I would Illmatic.

I think it's even, the camp game with the aerials are enough for TL to compete well against Lucario without the aura being a huge issue, still is a problem with his weight and KO ability though but like Peach he can avoid being killed easily it's just when he needs to he needs to he has a few issues and get hurt for a lot when he messes up.

 

[Hylian]

I am beginning to think GaW goes even with tlink now. Us being able to catch him is very valuable. His projectiles are easy enough to avoid, but his sword still beats us. Factor in the kill power disparity, and I'd say it's even.

GW can only beat TL on counterpicks...>_>.

I have a video for every situation with TL apparently:

Here is me Game 10 vs MJG in the grand finals of a tournament. Made the mistake of going to a neutral :/.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q3ZvMkOCoQ

 

[Alphicans]

K well smashville is a bad stage, and so is FD. YI, BF, PS1 and lylat are fine to vs TL on.

That was a bad match.... You played very impatiently and ran into MJG's traps. GaW can avoid all of his projectiles just by jumping around.

 

[Steam]

Lucario has a pretty big advantage on Toon Link from what I've seen between Trela and Jerm.

I could never see it being even or even slightly in Lucario's favor.

Trela is better than Jerm though... just speaking results wise.

and it's evenish because Lucario is much worse inside than people think... even when lucario gets in Tink can still compete rather well. Projectiles aren't a huge deal for lucario to just Dash PS through.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why does G&W beat Lucario?

I see no reason for it to be in his favor.

 

[Alphicans]

We can definitely negate some of the aura effects, can bucket your projectile (the bucket comes out soooo fast, it's really had to trick us and hitting us), and we edgeguard you exceptionally well. The way I see it is that we take away some of your options and you really gain nothing from vsing us. That leads me to +1 in our favor.

 

[Steam]

Lucario can punish GW bucketing aura sphere :0

though IDK if GW negates aura so well... I mean he CAN kill sub 100... but if lucario is playing safe and doesn't get read or fall for something stupid GW is going to have to kill with Fair. Lucario also does nasty things to GW once he gets momentum... It's probably very slightly in GW favor... IDK if it's enough for a 1 tho.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

dang phone

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You forgot to mension the lag you get for absorbing with bucket, and the commitment your aerials have. If Lucario is on the ground shutter step Fsmash beats our your aerials outside of dair from the top.

You cannot juggle him from below at all.

The MU is very heavily read based, becausde both characters can hit hard on a read off each other.

Your banning FD, we're banning Cruise.

It should be a 0.

Honestly after working with the Luc's and consolting Vinnie, it only reinforced me thinking it's even.

 

[Thebest1pj]

lucario vs tl is even trela vs jerm is a matter of player vs player.

hylian i would tell you what you did wrong but ....f falco lol

 

[Steam]

I can sorta see it being in G&W's favor... G&W has an "easier" time with the matchup.but if the lucario player is better, he'll win.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I can't see it, It can be just as bad for G&W.

 

[Alphicans]

You forgot to mension the lag you get for absorbing with bucket, and the commitment your aerials have. If Lucario is on the ground shutter step Fsmash beats our your aerials outside of dair from the top.

You cannot juggle him from below at all.

The MU is very heavily read based, becausde both characters can hit hard on a read off each other.

Your banning FD, we're banning Cruise.

It should be a 0.

Honestly after working with the Luc's and consolting Vinnie, it only reinforced me thinking it's even.

Tell me what you will do if I bucket aura sphere? At low %, at worst I take a smash attack and then the situation is reset with me having 1/3 of a 1hit KO move. It's almost always a good trade off. Also, using aurasphere as offstage pressure is useless now, because now not only do we get the bucket, you can't do much to pressure us. The bucket is good, don't down play it, and the range of absorption is massive.

Brinstar, and even frigate is really good for GaW, especially vs lucario. RC isn't our only good CP lol. You on the other hand, only have one stellar CP vs us (FD), and I'd argue that on SV it's still an even match-up.

Let me walk you through a set. Game 1... BF? If we win you guys lose the set basically. If we lose, then we get a very easy game 2 and game 3 is again at 0.

Notice how I assumed Lucario vs GaW is 0 on neutrals. If this were the case, the match-up WOULD HAVE TO BE IN OUR FAVOR. I don't see how the lucarios can't see this.

 

[z00ted]

From the vids I've seen, Trela got the key damage and hits when they needed to count at high %.

Trela might be a bit better than Jerm, at least this is what I'm seeing from the vids I'm finding of the two playing against each other.

I don't think it's MU though, seems more like the players when against each other. Then again you might know this better than I would Illmatic.

I think it's even, the camp game with the aerials are enough for TL to compete well against Lucario without the aura being a huge issue, still is a problem with his weight and KO ability though but like Peach he can avoid being killed easily it's just when he needs to he needs to he has a few issues and get hurt for a lot when he messes up.

I don't think Jerm has ever taken a set off of Trela.
First stock is always even, Jerm has to force an approach to kill because Trela usually just stays back and gets hit by countless amounts of projectiles at high percentages so he can build up aura. When Jerm gets in - it's like one fresh grab by Trela or bair, fsmash, whatever and Jerm (because of his floaty/lightweight stature) is gone.

After that, Lucario has a blast combo'ing the crap out of Jerm.. and before you know it Jerm's second stock is gone.

I honestly don't think it's player dependent. Jerm holds his own against Gnes, Razer, Me, Dphat, Denti, (basically all of Texas) - but throughout my whole career I have not seen him tke a single game off of Trela.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Tell me what you will do if I bucket aura sphere? At low %, at worst I take a smash attack and then the situation is reset with me having 1/3 of a 1hit KO move. It's almost always a good trade off. Also, using aurasphere as offstage pressure is useless now, because now not only do we get the bucket, you can't do much to pressure us. The bucket is good, don't down play it, and the range of absorption is massive.

You only say low %, at high % it's a tippered Fsmash or Force Palm, that's a fine trade for me, killing him and he is only a 1/3 of the way to making a near broken kill move.

I would never fire Aura Sphere off stage at G&W, ever. Free buckets for him is not the right thing to do.

You fire it on a read or if he commits to an aerial, which considering how long G&W has to commit to some of them is pretty long.

Brinstar, and even frigate is really good for GaW, especially vs lucario. RC isn't our only good CP lol. You on the other hand, only have one stellar CP vs us (FD), and I'd argue that on SV it's still an even match-up.

You forget SV, Picto, and YI are good for Lucario against G&W. I only mentioned what they would ban ideally, which is why I only said Cruise and FD.

Frigate is only ideal on the first part, on the second it's better for Lucario.

Let me walk you through a set. Game 1... BF? If we win you guys lose the set basically. If we lose, then we get a very easy game 2 and game 3 is again at 0.

Nope, YI or SV.

I think Luc wins on FD and SV, little to no platform control is perfect. Much easier to deal with his aerial approached.

Notice how I assumed Lucario vs GaW is 0 on neutrals. If this were the case, the match-up WOULD HAVE TO BE IN OUR FAVOR. I don't see how the lucarios can't see this.

Well I don't think it's 0 on neutrals.

You get Brinstar, and Defino/Frigate in finals, you'll never get Cruise in this MU. You'll ban FD in best of 3, and SV/Picto in best of 5. We both have stages favoring us, first game is important here.

The match-up is still very read based because of how hard both characters can punish each other if they figure the other out.

Vinnie vs Zucco, Vinnie wins because he reads Zucco's roll habit.

Vinnie vs Fonz, Vinnie loses because Fonz didn't have a roll habit or anything he caught into.

It's a 0 overall.

I don't think Jerm has ever taken a set off of Trela.
First stock is always even, Jerm has to force an approach to kill because Trela usually just stays back and gets hit by countless amounts of projectiles at high percentages so he can build up aura. When Jerm gets in - it's like one fresh grab by Trela or bair, fsmash, whatever and Jerm (because of his floaty/lightweight stature) is gone.

After that, Lucario has a blast combo'ing the crap out of Jerm.. and before you know it Jerm's second stock is gone.

I honestly don't think it's player dependent. Jerm holds his own against Gnes, Razer, Me, Dphat, Denti, (basically all of Texas) - but throughout my whole career I have not seen him tke a single game off of Trela.

That sounds like how I would imagine the MU.

Forgive me but, I'm still not sure it is Luc's favor. I think TL can camp and force a kill fine, it;s just if he messes up, he can die pretty early.

 

[Thebest1pj]

I don't think Jerm has ever taken a set off of Trela.
First stock is always even, Jerm has to force an approach to kill because Trela usually just stays back and gets hit by countless amounts of projectiles at high percentages so he can build up aura. When Jerm gets in - it's like one fresh grab by Trela or bair, fsmash, whatever and Jerm (because of his floaty/lightweight stature) is gone.

After that, Lucario has a blast combo'ing the crap out of Jerm.. and before you know it Jerm's second stock is gone.

I honestly don't think it's player dependent. Jerm holds his own against Gnes, Razer, Me, Dphat, Denti, (basically all of Texas) - but throughout my whole career I have not seen him tke a single game off of Trela.

the last time they played jerm won.

taken sets iin the past too trela just had the upperhand for a while.

hyro beat trela at hobo 24 or something.

 

[Alphicans]

You only say low %, at high % it's a tippered Fsmash or Force Palm, that's a fine trade for me, killing him and he is only a 1/3 of the way to making a near broken kill move.

I would never fire Aura Sphere off stage at G&W, ever. Free buckets for him is not the right thing to do.

You fire it on a read or if he commits to an aerial, which considering how long G&W has to commit to some of them is pretty long.

You're assuming you'd be close enough. I'd only bucket at high % if you were far away. I can absorb the aura sphere on the top of the SV, BF and YI platform, so it might be hard to land a smash on me anyways.

Regarding the offstage aura sphere... That was my point lol. You have no offstage pressure anymore. Why would I do a random move offstage? Aurasphere is not a factor in your edge gaurding game in this match-up, and that's pretty huge.


You forget SV, Picto, and YI are good for Lucario against G&W. I only mentioned what they would ban ideally, which is why I only said Cruise and FD.

Frigate is only ideal on the first part, on the second it's better for Lucario.



Nope, YI or SV.

I think Luc wins on FD and SV, little to no platform control is perfect. Much easier to deal with his aerial approached.

Picto is not good vs GaW. The flat part isn't active for that much of the stage, and lots of the transformations help GaW a lot. Definitely even here. YI.... I don't see the advantage you get. I'd gladly go here vs lucario. Great get up options on the right side of the stage below 100% is an added bonus.

Ok, here comes into play the starter stage list. If it is a 7 starter list, then it will start on BF. 5 starter it will start on YI. Both are fairly neutral, BFing being the obvious better choice for GaW. I want some reasoning as to why YI is a good stage vs GaW.



Well I don't think it's 0 on neutrals.

You get Brinstar, and Defino/Frigate in finals, you'll never get Cruise in this MU. You'll ban FD in best of 3, and SV/Picto in best of 5. We both have stages favoring us, first game is important here.

The match-up is still very read based because of how hard both characters can punish each other if they figure the other out.

Vinnie vs Zucco, Vinnie wins because he reads Zucco's roll habit.

Vinnie vs Fonz, Vinnie loses because Fonz didn't have a roll habit or anything he caught into.

It's a 0 overall.

responses are in bold.

 

[Steam]

I honestly think Aurasphere is pretty overrated for offstage pressure anyways... Lucario can rarely do anything with it because the cool down is so long... against GW I'll often just fire off a fully charged one the other way because the change stance is actually useful for baiting the bucket. Fully charged ones GW can just bucket on reaction...

still doesn't Trela still almost always beat Hyro/Jerm? and didn't he beat jash at apex?

 

[DMG]

What you rate that MU depends on how likely you think it is that TL will get a kill, or how likely Lucario will be able to punish TL before getting killed.

TL struggles to outright kill Lucario, so taking him to high % and not being able to finish it off could be a problem. So then, the question is how well TL keeps out Lucario? Can he afford to just keep zoning and not worry about the kill and avoid threatening situations? Or will he likely be forced or nearly forced into one even if only minor mistakes are made?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

responses are in bold.

I'm assuming he'll be close otherwise I wouldn't fire it if he had plenty of time to absorb it. I treat it the same way with spacies, not Falco offstage, the PSI boys, and Mario, you don't fire at long range when they have plenty of time to deal with it. Only time I would fire it long range is if I see him come in with an aerial or read an air dodge/Spot dodge.

Lucario can Fair and Dair offstage, easily because then G&W will need to commit to an aerial or airdodge if he hasn't used his UpB. If he goes low Dair can beat it out coming up if he aims for the ledge. He can pressure G&W off stage, G&W's pressure is better off stage.

I never said you would do a random move, I said the times where Aura sphere should be fired in the situations I stated, not blindly from far away. It's easy to deal with at a distance.

Case in point you won't bucket up close at a higher %.

You can not assume 7 stage starter list, the current one is the unity Ruleset which is 5.

Picto is great vs Game and Watch, your going to get more flat ground overall in the long run, the transformations depending on what shows up can favor either character.

YI limits it to one platform, which is fine, due to tilting of it, Lucario's Utilt can sometimes poke from below, his recovery gets more options due to walls, the unever ground can make Force palm guaranteed, if you jab an opponent and their feet aren't touching the ground force palm frame wise should be guaranteed. It's his best neutral, but in this MU, FD is the CP of choice of course, but then again you would auto ban that.

 

[Steam]

Lucario can do nothing to pressure G&W offstage. his upB kinda has invincibility... pretty much the 2nd best recovery in the entire game.

 

[Browny]

Herp derp.

Solution? Let g+w grab the ledge, now you have lucarios powerful edge pressure vs some of the worst ledge options in the game. Omnomnomnom LGL, nair cant beat spaced fsmash/FCAS. Problem solved

Also, spending 90% of the match with a near full-charge aura sphere, constantly threatening g+w with it by pulling it out and cancelling it instantly to bait bucket and mixing it up with firing it when its guaranteed vs his committed attacks could be pretty potent...

JUST SAYIN

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario can do nothing to pressure G&W offstage. his upB kinda has invincibility... pretty much the 2nd best recovery in the entire game.

It's not completely invincible, you can dair him out of it.

 

[Steam]

If he's snapping to the ledge... good luck with that.

 

[John12346]

Whenever I play Penta, the only kill move he lands on me is Fair/UpB stagespike.

So don't worry about the smashes too much; just roll away instead of inside if you think one's coming.

Although this matchup is a pain in the butt, no matter how you approach it.

Fsmash seems to be the go-to move, just for the sake of spacing GaW's ****.

 

[Alphicans]

I have never been hit by dair out of my recovery. If I am close enough the timing to hit me is pretty strict, you'd have to be really really frame perfect.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario can do nothing to pressure G&W offstage. his upB kinda has invincibility... pretty much the 2nd best recovery in the entire game.

This is very true, dair is pretty hard to hit G&W's recovery reliably, the only thing I've seen that works to some sort of consistency is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTWswIobaUk

and the very, very lucky bair/dair. G&W's upB is fairly hard to punish especially if they are allowed to land onstage without all that lag that their upB gives at times.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

GW doesn't "beat" anybody higher than D-Tier except Kirby and maybe Pit / ROB. The character is ruthlessly overrated and only does well in areas with lots of MK players. Ironically it's the match-up a lot of GW players like to complain about the most even though the character gets mercilessly ***** in tourney by characters like Diddy Kong, Marth, Olimar and IC first.

Some of his +1 should be 0 or -1 [Pikachu, Lucario, Wolf], some of his +2 or +3's are actually +1 [Mario, Sheik] while the 0's vs Falco, DDD, ZSS and Fox are -1. His match-up spread is easily the most overrated in this match-up chart.

 

[Alphicans]

^LOL... Oh the irony. GaW is the most underrated character in the cast, and saying he does well only because they exist only in areas with lots of MK's is absolutely ****ing ridiculous.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's also backed up by facts and results. GW is garbage.

 

[Flayl]

GaW is the most underrated character in the cast

Actually I think Snake has that beat. People keep saying he shouldn't win half of what he does but he's still number 2 in results.

In fact I can think of plenty of characters that are more underrated than G&W