Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

Magus420

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My friend looked into it and couldn't find any difference between synchronous and asynchronous hitboxes, so who knows what the trait affects, if anything.

http://puu.sh/naYTJ/5c6e9106b2.png
http://puu.sh/naYUQ/172863f336.png
Synchronous Timer and Asynchronous Timers are script timing events, and have nothing to do with the properties of a hitbox event. Synch being with respect to the previous timer event (synch 12 means wait 12 frames before advancing in the script), and asynch is with respect to the beginning of the script (asynch 20 means wait until 20 total frames have passed since script start). There's no such thing as a Synch/Asynch hitbox.
 

Sycorax

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My friend looked into it and couldn't find any difference between synchronous and asynchronous hitboxes, so who knows what the trait affects, if anything.

http://puu.sh/naYTJ/5c6e9106b2.png
http://puu.sh/naYUQ/172863f336.png
Those are just timers that or used to order the commands of moves. In that first picture, the asynchronous timer counts to 4 and then, on the 4th frame of Fox's bair, the three hitboxes comes out. Some other stuff happens. Four frames after that 4th frame, i.e. on frame 8, the hitbox properties change to weak bair. Then, 12 frames later, the hitboxes are removed. Then 3 frames later, the autocancel window opens. Then, on the 38th frame of the move, the IASA window opens. The asynchronous timer counts total frames of the move. The synchronous timer counts frames from the most recent frame.

EDIT: Damn, Magus beat me to the punch :(
 
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Army805

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Aug 7, 2015
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Perfect shield drop in that post refers to shield dropping using contol stick position that is above spot dodge area but still drops. It's explained in the footnote in the post you quoted. It's two frames: 0 (Wait) -> 1 Shield -> 2 drop -> 3 Actionable and airborne.
I guess I'm confused to exactly why Shai dropping from wait is 5 frames while perfect shield dropping is 2 frames, I feel like i'm overlooking something.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
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I guess I'm confused to exactly why Shai dropping from wait is 5 frames while perfect shield dropping is 2 frames, I feel like i'm overlooking something.
It's expecting you're not holding down beforehand, so it takes time to input shai drop.
 
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Anyone know what the exact height of Ganon's throws are? I want to be able to test some stuff on ikneeddata, but I can't get exact results unless I can input the exact vertical origin of his throws.
 

Bones0

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Aug 31, 2005
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Anyone know what the exact height of Ganon's throws are? I want to be able to test some stuff on ikneeddata, but I can't get exact results unless I can input the exact vertical origin of his throws.
Not an quick solution, but you could use debug vs. a spare controller to find out what % Ganon's throw will cause Fox to land on a platform, then go into ikneedata and see what is the lowest height where the same thing happens.
 
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Sycorax

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Anyone know what the exact height of Ganon's throws are? I want to be able to test some stuff on ikneeddata, but I can't get exact results unless I can input the exact vertical origin of his throws.
We got a complicate orduh.

That's a really tedious thing to figure out. It is unique for each character. It would be 4x26x26=2704 values in total.

Edit: You can figure these things out for yourself using Magus's physics mod.
 
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schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 18, 2014
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491
Also on top of release points, there is the ECB pattern of each character's different damaged states that need to be considered. The melee calculator will not be able to do these kinds of stuff accurately, and probably won't until there are some significant development in the melee modding community regarding animations.
 

Bones0

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Also on top of release points, there is the ECB pattern of each character's different damaged states that need to be considered. The melee calculator will not be able to do these kinds of stuff accurately, and probably won't until there are some significant development in the melee modding community regarding animations.
There isn't a function for hitting grabbed opponents, is there?
 
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So I'm really not very familiar with development mode. How do two character's collision boxes interact when one is in grab animation? What about when a character is being thrown? If they push up against each other, perhaps I could use the ECB Right/Left setting for whatever character is in grab to get a better approximation of the X/Y position of various character off throws.
 

Army805

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It's expecting you're not holding down beforehand, so it takes time to input shai drop.
Hmmm interesting, so shai drops take 5 frames from wait, but when you do "buffer" (lack of better word even though its not a true buffer I don't think, correct me if i'm wrong) the down input in impact lag/landing lag it's only 2 frames. Does this mean when your shai dropping from wait theres essentially 3 frames of holding down before the L/R+down input? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to understand lol. Can you briefly explain how holding the down input in lag saves 3 frames and not 1?
 
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Magus420

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Doesn't help the ECB during KB animations issue, but I do have throw release points from working on PM throw mechanics.

Throw Release Points
Throw release points depend on the throw, what part of the animation it happens on (if weight dependent speed), and the character being thrown. There can also be some additional variance on X position with some throws that I remember seeing occasionally but couldn't care to figure out the specifics at the time (Link's d-throw iirc was one that had weird X on release that didn't fit with its ThrowN and CharOffset when used on some characters but did vs others).

Release Point = ThrowN + TransN + CharOffset

Positive X is in the direction the grabber was facing. Positive Y is upward. If ECB Bottom would touch the floor with the release point their TopN is raised up to floor height. If it does not, it's possible for their TopN to be below floor height even while onstage (I recall that happening with CF u-throw vs CF).


Throw Animation ThrowN/TransN
-- * indicates the animation frame they are released on once reached (does not include additional hitlag frames). Throws with weight dependent speed that don't fall exactly on this frame have interpolated ThrowN/TransN.
-- ThrowN is the base position of the one being thrown relative to the thrower.
-- TransN is the movement of the thrower during the throw (Pikachu's b-throw has a lot of TransN for example).

Code:
Frame       ThrowN		TransN
--------------------------------------------------
-CF F-Throw-
18	7.53633	12.5128	*

-CF B-Throw-
20	-11.360	22.2253	*

-CF U-Throw-
11	8.63220	11.0920
12	8.63206	11.8532
13	8.63181	12.6144
14	8.63152	11.8809
15	8.63127	11.1474	*
16	9.24401	16.4542
17	9.51098	16.5699

-CF D-Throw-
15	8.57625	3.63504
...
18	8.57573	3.42992
19	8.57584	3.33719
20	8.57631	3.24386	*
21	8.57597	3.24620
22	8.48266	3.16498


-DK FF-Throw-
15	21.6851	8.56516	*

-DK FB-Throw-
15	-22.841	13.8851	*

-DK FU-Throw-
12	13.5359	12.8216
13	11.9627	18.1558
14	4.30127	29.6078	*
15	3.25976	35.9275
16	2.94430	42.1655

-DK FD-Throw-
15	24.9065	4.66490	*

-DK B-Throw-
5				-0.8809
10				-1.7668
14	-18.737	22.9823	*	-2.49831
35				-7.42676
36				-7.42676

-DK U-Throw-
13	-2.3933	32.6888	*

-DK D-Throw-
23	7.33862	1.08482
24	7.30162	1.08482
...
40	7.40637	1.08482	*
41	7.42163	1.08482
42	7.43381	1.08482


-Fox F-Throw-
3				-0.2438
4				0.00000
5				0.67909
9				4.03619
10				4.60585
11	9.02201	8.47130	*	5.17469
12				5.74106
20				9.98677
25				12.1342
27				12.4923
28				12.4906
33				12.4818

-Fox B-Throw-
7	-4.3782	4.61710
8	-7.5984	11.1866
9	-6.4707	11.2994	*
10	-6.5963	11.3281
11	-6.6120	11.3317

-Fox U-Throw-
6	4.78641	14.4255
7	1.95044	19.5159
8	-0.0352	22.2114	*
9	-0.0670	22.3484
10	-0.0800	22.4555

-Fox D-Throw-
31	0.50063	5.10061
32	0.50063	5.26373
33	0.50063	5.39126	*
34	0.50063	5.46404
35	0.50063	5.51630


-G&W F-Throw-
53	8.88167	10.5293
54	8.88167	10.5293
55	12.6106	9.20251	*
56	12.6106	9.20251
57	12.6106	9.20251

-G&W B-Throw-
53	-9.2726	12.8457
54	-9.2726	12.8457
55	-14.010	10.0527	*
56	-14.010	10.0527
57	-14.010	10.0527

-G&W U-Throw-
53	-9.2726	12.8457
54	-9.2726	12.8457
55	-2.7821	21.0745	*
56	-2.7821	21.0745
57	-2.7821	21.0745

-G&W D-Throw-
53	-8.1600	12.4314
54	-8.1600	12.4314
55	-6.1200	1.21135	*
56	-6.1200	1.21135
57	-6.1200	1.21135


-Kirby F-Throw-
8				0.00000	0.00000
9				0.80479	1.77362
10				1.62645	3.56161
27				14.4139	19.7691
28				14.8966	19.7123
32				16.2546	12.5141
34				16.7838	0.00000
44				16.8096	0.00000
45	1.43280	-0.0892	*	16.7500	1.43259	18.1828	1.34339
50				15.3473	6.82204
58				11.9783	9.85353
59				11.6938	9.79659
61				11.3383	9.41728
--				11.2199	9.10415

-Kirby B-Throw-
10				2.98551	0.00000
...				2.98551	0.00000
16				2.98551	0.00000
17				0.71921	8.58135
18				-1.2158	14.2145
20				-4.1328	17.4456
21				-5.1352	15.4479
23				-6.2786	3.49188
24				-6.7101	0.00000
...				-6.7101	0.00000
29	-5.9339	1.09228	*	-6.7101	0.00000	-12.644	1.09228
...				-6.7101	0.00000
35				-6.7101	0.00000
36				-6.4142	0.00000
40				-4.5228	0.00000
49				-0.3623	0.00000
--				-0.2347	0.00000

-Kirby U-Throw-
5				0.00000	0.00000
6				0.00000	6.37113
7				0.00000	23.6749
15				0.00000	230.000
27				0.00000	249.134
28				0.00000	249.358
29				0.00000	248.996
35				0.00000	230.000
36				0.00000	220.670
44				0.00000	24.7696
45				0.00000	0.25882
46				0.00000	0.00000
51	6.20753	5.38381	*	0.00000	0.00000	6.20753	5.38381
52				-1.4243	4.27011
55				-5.2986	13.3965
59				-9.5792	18.2589
60				-10.499	18.4001
61				-11.362	18.3504
70				-16.730	17.5857
79				-18.404	16.6500
--				-18.415	16.4752

-Kirby D-Throw-
57	3.09553	1.46822	*	


-Bowser F-Throw-
35	17.5745	16.7415	*

-Bowser B-Throw-
18	-14.669	24.3290	*	0.00000
...
30				0.00000
31				-0.6322
33				-3.9392
35				-6.0789
...				-6.0789

-Bowser U-Throw-
50	-0.2700	14.8127
51	1.15596	25.7626
52	1.11454	34.2259	*
53	1.01697	34.2289
54	0.89577	34.2326

-Bowser D-Throw-
56	13.7997	7.97297	*

-Bowser KF-Throw-
15				0.00000
16				1.22193
17				3.91726
18	15.8029	6.46747	*	6.63030
19				7.90535
30				9.18382
39				10.9343
40				11.1657
--				11.3371

-Bowser KB-Throw-
14	-20.768	12.1021	*	0.00000
26				0.00000
27				-0.01923
35				-1.91565
39				-4.37019
40				-5.17662
--				-5.86306

-Link F-Throw-
16	11.5061	14.3375	*

-Link B-Throw-
16	-10.782	17.0780	*

-Link U-Throw-
25	0.30499	29.7616
26	0.48044	31.2174
27	0.54617	31.2413	*
28	0.54147	31.2622
29	0.49642	31.2789

-Link D-Throw-
26	-5.1635	0.15247
27	-5.5198	0.58314
28	-5.2788	-0.0610	*
29	-5.2692	-0.0860
30	-5.2614	-0.1066


-Luigi F-Throw-
12	8.60534	9.09100	*

-Luigi B-Throw-
44	-5.8218	10.2289	*

-Luigi U-Throw-
16	-0.6738	3.56149
17	-0.5793	7.42040
18	-0.5018	18.5491	*
19	-0.4940	18.9771
20	-0.5010	19.3271

-Luigi D-Throw-
16	-1.4026	16.1662	
17	-0.2704	13.1363
18	-1.5057	2.93436	*
19	-1.4007	3.06379
20	-1.2956	3.08359


-Mario F-Throw-
12	7.5727	8.00009	*

-Mario B-Throw-
44	-5.1232	9.00145	*

-Mario U-Throw-
16	-0.5929	3.13413
17	-0.5098	6.52997
18	-0.4416	16.3233	*
19	-0.4347	16.6999
20	-0.4409	17.0078

-Mario D-Throw-
16	-1.2343	14.2262
17	-0.2379	11.5600
18	-1.3251	2.58225	*
19	-1.2326	2.69615
20	-1.1401	2.71357


-Marth F-Throw-
12	11.1683	9.84167
13	9.44960	6.36311
14	8.18196	1.77321	*
15	8.12133	1.53742
16	8.07226	1.31479

-Marth B-Throw-
5	0.02158	9.56328
6	-0.7693	7.92358
7	-0.8121	7.83451	*
8	-0.8640	7.75129
9	-0.9240	7.67382

-Marth U-Throw-
10	10.5103	11.9278
11	13.4213	16.3717
12	5.68346	24.3936	*
13	5.32021	26.5133
14	5.03991	28.7261

-Marth D-Throw-
12	12.4810	8.26519
13	11.1965	6.23059
14	8.09110	2.68214	*
15	5.77836	0.13357
16	5.77836	-0.0706


-Mewtwo F-Throw-
18	16.3272	27.4193	*

-Mewtwo B-Throw-
29	-7.7144	26.5453	*

-Mewtwo U-Throw-
40	2.26330	30.2578
41	2.26330	30.2810
42	2.26330	30.2982	*
43	2.26330	30.3087
44	2.26330	30.3124

-Mewtwo D-Throw-
23	11.4276	1.28223
24	10.8831	0.49226
25	10.9009	0.47735	*
26	10.9222	4.87450
27	10.9763	15.3592


-Ness F-Throw-
27	11.5000	9.77506	*

-Ness B-Throw-
27	-13.554	14.8295	*

-Ness U-Throw-
34	2.50000	17.8527
35	2.49668	17.8481
36	2.49245	17.8440	*
37	2.48751	17.8404
38	2.48202	17.8373

-Ness D-Throw-
28	-2.2180	1.56098
29	-2.2367	1.72976
30	-2.2612	1.93382	*
31	-2.2585	2.31548
32	-2.2037	2.40110


-Peach F-Throw-
13	6.16056	10.3451
14	6.27994	10.3451
15	6.27994	10.3451	*
16	6.27994	10.3451
17	6.27994	10.3451

-Peach B-Throw-
21	-6.5123	10.3866	*

-Peach U-Throw-
23	-0.4209	25.1126
24	-0.4237	22.8878
25	-0.4209	25.1126	*
26	-0.4181	27.3373
27	-0.4195	26.1837

-Peach D-Throw-
41	-3.2458	-0.3149
42	-3.2483	-0.1038
43	-3.2483	-0.1038	*
44	-3.2483	-0.1038
45	
-3.2483	-0.1038


-Pikachu F-Throw-
27	5.38671	10.6099
28	5.11370	11.8174
29	7.08556	11.7272	*
30	8.78181	11.6370
31	9.01829	11.6768

-Pikachu B-Throw-
3				0.00000
4				-1.3370
15				-14.628
20				-19.377
27				-24.048
28	4.00700	7.81304		-24.494
29	1.42300	9.20767		-24.878
30	-3.2930	8.74976	*	-25.200
31	-3.5020	8.64152		-25.474
32	-3.3070	8.47367		-25.719
41				-26.882
48				-27.004
49				-27.002
--				-27.002

-Pikachu U-Throw-
18	2.45083	14.9740
19	2.43049	17.6833
20	2.40722	14.9081	*
21	2.38230	17.6173
22	2.35701	16.0467

-Pikachu D-Throw-
18	-0.2334	0.51671
19	-1.1140	1.96314
20	-0.5405	1.17256	*
21	-3.1442	6.05144
22	-4.5321	11.4901


-ICs F-Throw-
26	15.7333	8.11397
27	14.9892	8.15784
28	14.2476	8.20171	*
29	14.9987	8.15784
30	15.7513	8.11397

-ICs B-Throw-
15	-5.2059	11.3729
16	-6.8361	11.5290
17	-10.172	9.69242	*
18	-13.727	8.53091
19	-16.326	9.91663

-ICs U-Throw-
29	-4.0256	26.9426
30	-4.0256	29.3622
31	-4.0256	26.9426	*
32	-3.9917	27.7616
33	-3.9480	28.5807

-ICs D-Throw-
34	13.2703	4.63211
35	13.2908	3.25132
36	13.3134	3.25132	*
37	13.3436	3.25132
38	13.3864	3.25132


-Jigglypuff F-Throw-
8	9.12599	6.58010
9	10.2019	6.58010
10	11.2800	6.58010	*
11	11.2828	6.58010
12	11.2800	6.58010

-Jigglypuff B-Throw-
15				0.00000
16				-0.0940
20				-7.5200
23	-5.9100	-0.0630		-7.5200
24	-6.0730	0.44739		-7.5200
25	-6.2320	0.71290	*	-7.5200
26	-6.3616	0.52940		-7.4754
27	-6.4554	0.30614		-7.3336
28				-7.0832
33				-2.5548
39				-0.0358
40				0.00000
...				0.00000

-Jigglypuff U-Throw-
6	-3.0836	7.90553
7	-4.5592	9.34938
8	-4.0995	10.5044	*
9	-2.3493	10.7122
10	0.11034	10.5044

-Jigglypuff D-Throw-
61	0.93401	1.35695
62	0.97649	1.37719
63	0.99571	1.39779	*
64	1.01037	1.43775
65	1.00513	1.46202


-Samus F-Throw-
15	9.17490	20.4992	*

-Samus B-Throw-
11	-14.370	19.1663	*

-Samus U-Throw-
29	0.79793	40.6641
30	0.79793	41.7047
31	0.79793	41.7047	*
32	0.79793	41.7047
33	0.79793	41.7047

-Samus D-Throw-
19	16.3831	9.69041
20	12.9568	-0.6513
21	13.0290	1.57963	*
22	12.9714	-0.7415
23	12.9646	-0.8414


-Yoshi F-Throw-
19	13.9279	20.6202	*

-Yoshi B-Throw-
19	-15.964	16.6653	*

-Yoshi U-Throw-
10	1.91748	7.47606
11	1.50579	9.58545
12	-1.9667	29.6349	*
13	-2.1663	30.7874
14	-2.3068	31.5989	

-Yoshi D-Throw-
12	-1.3576	7.40034
13	-1.7239	2.47770
14	-1.3429	1.53477	*
15	-0.9008	1.39857
16	-0.9008	1.44012


-Zelda F-Throw-
32	9.05510	12.3484	*

-Zelda B-Throw-
26	-7.2230	11.4296
27	-9.4405	12.3183
28	-14.816	13.1514	*
29	-14.902	13.1514
30	-14.859	13.1514

-Zelda U-Throw-
27	-4.3415	23.9912
28	-4.4479	24.0280
29	-4.4844	24.0404	*
30	-4.4844	24.0404
31	-4.4844	24.0404

-Zelda D-Throw-
48	-0.2381	-0.2854
49	-0.1396	-0.2941
50	-0.0411	-0.2985	*
51	0.05740	-0.2658
52	0.15590	-0.1634


-Sheik F-Throw-
24	9.92890	9.89187	*

-Sheik B-Throw-
1				-0.2112
4				-1.9212
...				-1.9212
13				-1.9212
14				-4.2506
15				-6.5799
20	-13.889	9.90452	*	-6.5799
--				-6.5799

-Sheik U-Throw-
21	-5.7801	27.0356
22	-4.5844	27.0356
23	-5.7801	27.0356	*
24	-5.7801	27.0356
25	-5.7801	27.0356

-Sheik D-Throw-
34	-0.1612	3.31756
35	-0.2340	3.21420
36	-0.3095	3.12073	*
37	-0.3797	3.04454
38	-0.4364	2.99298

-Falco F-Throw-
3				-0.2794
4				0.00000
5				0.77813
9				4.62480
10				5.27754
11	10.3378	9.70669	*	5.92933
12				6.57830
20				11.4432
25				13.9038
27				14.3141
28				14.3121
33				14.3020

-Falco B-Throw-
7	-5.0114	5.29041
8	-8.7066	12.8180
9	-7.4174	12.9472	*
10	-7.5613	12.9801
11	-7.5793	12.9842

-Falco U-Throw-
5	5.95668	8.46180
6	3.91996	22.8204
7	2.85313	29.3586	*
8	2.85521	29.3302
9	2.86133	29.2769

-Falco D-Throw-
31	0.57363	5.84444
32	0.57363	6.03135
33	0.57363	6.17748	*
34	0.57363	6.26086
35	0.57363	6.32075


-Y Link F-Throw-
16	9.04736	11.2818	*

-Y Link B-Throw-
16	-8.4910	13.4383	*

-Y Link U-Throw-
25	0.23335	23.4189
26	0.37141	24.5644
27	0.42313	24.5832	*
28	0.41943	24.5997
29	0.38398	24.6128

-Y Link D-Throw-
26	-4.0697	0.11987
27	-4.3501	0.45876
28	-4.1604	-0.0478	*
29	-4.1529	-0.0678
30	-4.1468	-0.0840


-Dr Mario F-Throw-
12	7.20597	8.03310	*

-Dr Mario B-Throw-
44	-5.1232	9.00145	*

-Dr Mario U-Throw-
16	-0.5929	3.13413
17	-0.5098	6.52997
18	-0.4416	16.3233	*
19	-0.4249	16.6904
20	-0.4036	16.9717

-Dr Mario D-Throw-
16	-1.2343	14.2262
17	-0.2379	11.5600
18	-1.3251	2.58225	*
19	-1.2326	2.69615
20	-1.1401	2.71357


-Roy F-Throw-
12	10.4885	9.24262
13	8.87441	5.97579
14	7.68393	1.66529	*
15	7.62699	1.44385
16	7.58091	1.23477

-Roy B-Throw-
5	0.02027	8.98117
6	-0.7225	7.44128
7	-0.7627	7.35764	*
8	-0.8114	7.27948
9	-0.8678	7.20673

-Roy U-Throw-
10	9.87056	11.2018
11	12.6043	15.3752
12	5.33751	22.9088	*
13	4.99637	24.8995
14	4.73314	26.9776

-Roy D-Throw-
12	11.7213	7.76210
13	10.5150	5.85134
14	7.59860	2.51889	*
15	5.42663	0.12544
16	5.42663	-0.0663


-Pichu F-Throw-
29	2.54156	7.88035	*

-Pichu B-Throw-
30	-2.819	6.70068	*	-14.000
49				-15.001
--				-15.001

-Pichu U-Throw-
20	1.60236	11.9928	*

-Pichu D-Throw-
20	-0.3003	1.32920	*


-Ganondorf F-Throw-
18	8.39096	13.9318	*

-Ganondorf B-Throw-
20	-12.648	24.7457	*

-Ganondorf U-Throw-
13	9.61068	14.0448
14	9.61035	13.2282
15	9.61007	12.4115	*
16	10.2923	18.3201
17	10.5895	18.4490

-Ganondorf D-Throw-
18	9.54823	3.81887
19	9.54836	3.71562
20	9.54888	3.61171	*
21	9.54850	3.61431
22	9.44461	3.52388

Character Offset
Code:
Melee             X         Y
---------------------------------
Pichu           0.0000   -4.5996
Jigglypuff      0.0000   -5.0000
Kirby           0.0000   -5.0000
Ice Climbers    0.0000   -5.0042
Ness            0.0000   -5.0042
Yoshi           0.0000   -5.6000
Dr Mario        0.0000   -5.6672
Luigi           0.0000   -5.6672
Mario           0.0000   -5.6672
Pikachu         0.0000   -5.7997
Game & Watch    0.0000   -6.1937
Sheik          -0.3466   -8.2405
Falco           0.0000   -8.3000
Fox             0.0000   -8.3000
Link           -0.2257   -8.5516
Young Link     -0.2334   -8.5533
Peach           0.0000   -9.4000
Zelda           0.0000   -9.4000
Marth          -0.4263   -9.8485
Roy            -0.4263   -9.8485
Mewtwo         -0.2257	-10.3076
Donkey Kong     0.0000	-13.4311
Captain Falcon +0.4884	-13.8475
Ganondorf      +0.4884	-13.8475
Samus          +0.4884	-13.8475
Bowser          0.0000	-15.5250
 

schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
491
There is not, but would it any difference to hitting regularly?

Yooo Magus coming in with the massive knowledge drop! Thank you so much man, this is incredibly helpful.

Edit: Does anyone have hitbox properties for Dot eyes and Stitch? I can't find them anywhere
 
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Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
http://smashboards.com/threads/peach-data-and-notes.309178/page-2#post-13412721

They all share the same hitbox data, just with the damage replaced when thrown. The turnip hitbox is directly after the Odds/Damages (0x4150).

Damage: X - 0.4 + (Speed * 3), Angle: 361, KBG: 60, BKB: 25

Code:
2	Smiley Damage
2	r.r Damage
2	-.- Damage
2	O_O Damage
2	^_^ Damage
6	Winking Damage
12	Dot Eye Damage
30	Stitchface Damage

EDIT: Might as well include this stuff too:
Code:
0.6	[3F19999A]	Turnip Item Throw Speed Multiplier
0	[00000000]	Turnip Air Friction
0.051	[3D50E560]	Turnip Gravity
1.8	[3FE66666]	Turnip Terminal Velocity
1	[3F800000]	Turnip Throw Animation Speed
-0.4	[BECCCCCD]	Turnip Base Damage Reduction
3.0	[40400000]	Turnip Speed Damage Boost Multiplier
Code:
Throw		      X	      Y		  Speed       Angle
-------------------------------------------------------------
Grd Frwd Normal	    1.4918  0.4561    1.5600 (2.600)    17
Grd Frwd Smash	    2.1439  0.4167    2.1840 (3.640)    11
Grd Frwd Dash	    1.9954  0.4241    2.0400 (3.400)    12
Grd Back Normal	   -1.4918  0.4561    1.5600 (2.600)    17
Grd Back Smash	   -2.1439  0.4167    2.1840 (3.640)    11
Grd Up   Normal	    0.0000  1.8600    1.8600 (3.100)    90
Grd Up   Smash	    0.0000  2.6040    2.6040 (4.340)    90
Grd Down Normal	    0.0000 -1.9800    1.9800 (3.300)   270
Grd Down Smash	    0.0000 -2.7720    2.7720 (4.620)   270
Air Frwd Normal	    1.4918  0.4561    1.5600 (2.600)    17
Air Frwd Smash	    1.5200  0.3509    1.5600 (2.600)    13
Air Back Normal	   -1.4918  0.4561    1.5600 (2.600)    17
Air Back Smash	   -1.5200  0.3509    1.5600 (2.600)    13
Air Up   Normal	    0.0000  1.8600    1.8600 (3.100)    90
Air Up   Smash	    0.0000  1.8600    1.8600 (3.100)    90
Air Down Normal	    0.0000 -1.9800    1.9800 (3.300)   270
Air Down Smash	    0.0000 -1.9800    1.9800 (3.300)   270
 
Last edited:

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
I know if you're in hitlag for both attacker and defender you're frozen, but if you do an aerial in midair and hit an enemy, do you literally just not move at all in midair for the x hitlag frames you experience (unaffected by gravity if that exists in melee lol)?

Also another related question:
Say you start an aerial at frame 1 and it ends on frame 25 normally. If you suffer 3 hitlag frames in between by hitting an enemy, the aerial would then end on frame 28 right?
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
501
Location
Atlanta, GA
I know if you're in hitlag for both attacker and defender you're frozen, but if you do an aerial in midair and hit an enemy, do you literally just not move at all in midair for the x hitlag frames you experience (unaffected by gravity if that exists in melee lol)?
Yes. You don't move. There is gravity in Melee (there's even air friction and terminal velocity too!), and it doesn't apply while in hitlag.

Say you start an aerial at frame 1 and it ends on frame 25 normally. If you suffer 3 hitlag frames in between by hitting an enemy, the aerial would then end on frame 28 right?
Yes.
 

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
What's the difference between landlag and landfallspecial lag for special attacks like sheik up-b? I read that landfall special takes place after the initial animation but just want to makes sure I understand exactly what that means.

For the sake of example...

sheik's upb is 94 frames total, with 30 frames landlag, 4 landfall special. Am I right in understanding that she has exactly 30 frames landlag any time within the 94 frames of her up b animation, and landing any frame 95+ or later would be exactly 4?

It seems like sheik always has so much delay after recovering, so it seems like she always get at least 30 frames...
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,147
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
What's the difference between landlag and landfallspecial lag for special attacks like sheik up-b? I read that landfall special takes place after the initial animation but just want to makes sure I understand exactly what that means.

For the sake of example...

sheik's upb is 94 frames total, with 30 frames landlag, 4 landfall special. Am I right in understanding that she has exactly 30 frames landlag any time within the 94 frames of her up b animation, and landing any frame 95+ or later would be exactly 4?

It seems like sheik always has so much delay after recovering, so it seems like she always get at least 30 frames...
If you do a really high up-B you will see that she only has the default 4 frames of landing lag. Same is true for spacies' side-Bs. Fox and Falco actually have 3 different amounts of lag on their up-Bs depending on how long it takes them to land.
 
Last edited:

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
If you do a really high up-B you will see that she only has the default 4 frames of landing lag. Same is true for spacies' side-Bs. Fox and Falco actually have 3 different amounts of lag on their up-Bs depending on how long it takes them to land.
What are the 3 different amounts for the spacies up-b (1 from mid-animation, 1 from after the up-b animation is done which is landfallspecial, and what's the last one) ? And you mean 3 frames of landing lag from landfall special for the spacies up-b right?

Looking here http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-fox-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285177/ for reference
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
501
Location
Atlanta, GA
What's the difference between landlag and landfallspecial lag for special attacks like sheik up-b? I read that landfall special takes place after the initial animation but just want to makes sure I understand exactly what that means.

For the sake of example...

sheik's upb is 94 frames total, with 30 frames landlag, 4 landfall special. Am I right in understanding that she has exactly 30 frames landlag any time within the 94 frames of her up b animation, and landing any frame 95+ or later would be exactly 4?

It seems like sheik always has so much delay after recovering, so it seems like she always get at least 30 frames...
Special moves, unlike nearly every other move in the game, are coded in "sections" sorta. What I mean is that there is a unique name for different parts of the up-b animations. For example, Sheik's up-b is made of 358, 359, and 360, the initial jump, the invisible part, and the part at the end where she reappears (the animations are also named with numbers which is really annoying ~_~). If she up-b's on the ground, the animation names are completely different.

A lot of up-b's have an ending animation that looks like regular FallSpecial but isn't. It is still part of their up-b. For Sheik, this is 360. She falls a considerable distance while in 360, about the height of the Yoshi's Story top platform. If she lands during this animation, she enters LandingFallSpecial with 30 frames of landing lag. If she falls long enough to enter FallSpecial, she will land and enter LandingFallSpecial but with 4 frames of landing lag.

Fox is a similar but slightly different case. His ending animation on his up-b where he falls is called 358. It lasts considerably less than Sheik's falling animation. If he lands during it, he incurs 6 frames of lag. If he lands after it during FallSpecial, he incurs 3.
 
Last edited:

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
Special moves, unlike nearly every other move in the game, are coded in "sections" sorta. What I mean is that there is a unique name for different parts of the up-b animations. For example, Sheik's up-b is made of 358, 359, and 360, the initial jump, the invisible part, and the part at the end where she reappears (the animations are also named with numbers which is really annoying ~_~). If she up-b's on the ground, the animation names are completely different.

A lot of up-b's have an ending animation that looks like regular FallSpecial but isn't. It is still part of their up-b. For Sheik, this is 360. She falls a considerable distance while in 360, about the height of the Yoshi's Story top platform. If she lands during this animation, she enters LandingFallSpecial with 30 frames of landing lag. If she falls long enough to enter FallSpecial, she will land and enter LandingFallSpecial but with 4 frames of landing lag.

Fox is a similar but slightly different case. His ending animation on his up-b where he falls is called 358. It lasts considerably less than Sheik's falling animation. If he lands during it, he incurs 6 frames of lag. If he lands after it during FallSpecial, he incurs 3.
I just tested it using 20xx develop mode with the frame by frame advance, and LandFallSpecial is always 30 frames. but if you fall for long enough, you can cancel the 30 frames after frame 4 by inputting dash. I actually also landed during 360 and was still able to cancel the lag after 4 frames (easy way to do this was go to FD, hold up lightly so you wont jump. hit b while still holding up, and when you land you'll be in 360, but can still cancel after the 4th frame)

Also I tried fox's side b and when I land really close ot the ground, and then hit the ground, i go into landfallspecial for ~30 frames before I can shield, but http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-fox-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285177/ says 20. Am i missing something? The reason I put ~30 is for some reason when I'm advancing through LandFallSpecial it jumps like ~1.6 frames at a time instead of just 1 frame
 
Last edited:

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
501
Location
Atlanta, GA
I just tested it using 20xx develop mode with the frame by frame advance, and LandFallSpecial is always 30 frames. but if you fall for long enough, you can cancel the 30 frames after frame 4 by inputting dash.
Yeah, LandingFallSpecial is always 30 frames for every character, but some of them can cancel it earlier than others. It's basically the same as IASA frames. Unlike IASA, you can cancel it with anything, doesn't have to be dash.

I actually also landed during 360 and was still able to cancel the lag after 4 frames
No you didn't. 360 only lasts 39 frames. If you up-b straight up from the ground, you'll spend 39 frames in 360 and then land on frame 40. The game counts this as landing out of FallSpecial and gives you the reduced landing lag.
 

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
Yeah, LandingFallSpecial is always 30 frames for every character, but some of them can cancel it earlier than others. It's basically the same as IASA frames. Unlike IASA, you can cancel it with anything, doesn't have to be dash.


No you didn't. 360 only lasts 39 frames. If you up-b straight up from the ground, you'll spend 39 frames in 360 and then land on frame 40. The game counts this as landing out of FallSpecial and gives you the reduced landing lag.
Gotcha. When I illusion with Fox and land without entering FallSpecial , I can't cancel the IASA frames (not technically IASA but i just mean those cancellable frames) from 21 to 30. http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-fox-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285177/ says there's 20 frames of landing lag. Is it wrong or am i missing something?
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
501
Location
Atlanta, GA
Gotcha. When I illusion with Fox and land without entering FallSpecial , I can't cancel the IASA frames (not technically IASA but i just mean those cancellable frames) from 21 to 30. http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-fox-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285177/ says there's 20 frames of landing lag. Is it wrong or am i missing something?
That's weird. Literally just hold shield any time and it will cancel as soon as possible. In the case of Fox's side-b landing lag, instead of LandingFallSpecial being cancelable, the animation is just accelerated. Maybe you're only paying attention to the frame counts on the right side of teh Y+down display. If you're going by those, then you'll notice it doesn't display whole numbers. That is because the animation is accelerated. The last frame will be 28.59 and you will enter Wait after that (or something else if you do an input). If you count them though, there are a total of 20 landing lag frames.
 

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
That's weird. Literally just hold shield any time and it will cancel as soon as possible. In the case of Fox's side-b landing lag, instead of LandingFallSpecial being cancelable, the animation is just accelerated. Maybe you're only paying attention to the frame counts on the right side of teh Y+down display. If you're going by those, then you'll notice it doesn't display whole numbers. That is because the animation is accelerated. The last frame will be 28.59 and you will enter Wait after that (or something else if you do an input). If you count them though, there are a total of 20 landing lag frames.
Ah that was exactly it. But what do the numbers represent for side B LandingFallSpecial in 20xx? Theyre around 1.5x a frame length.Is there a reason they don't just count a frame at a time like everything else
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
501
Location
Atlanta, GA
Ah that was exactly it. But what do the numbers represent for side B LandingFallSpecial in 20xx? Theyre around 1.5x a frame length.Is there a reason they don't just count a frame at a time like everything else
Yeah. The way the game is coded, there are certain model positions associated with each frame of an animation. So for Fox's LandingFallSpecial there is a left leg position for each frame, and a right leg, and an arm, etc. But what if the developers wanted to shorten an animation? It would look weird to just cut it off, to have Fox instantly go from crouching to a standing Wait animation. The solution is to speed up the animation so you still get the whole motion of the animation but just at an accelerated rate. The game calculates fractional frames by interpolating body positions. This same thing happens for weight dependent throws.
 

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
Yeah. The way the game is coded, there are certain model positions associated with each frame of an animation. So for Fox's LandingFallSpecial there is a left leg position for each frame, and a right leg, and an arm, etc. But what if the developers wanted to shorten an animation? It would look weird to just cut it off, to have Fox instantly go from crouching to a standing Wait animation. The solution is to speed up the animation so you still get the whole motion of the animation but just at an accelerated rate. The game calculates fractional frames by interpolating body positions. This same thing happens for weight dependent throws.
That is actually insane how the game works and also how much people know about it haha... Thanks for the help
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,147
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
What are the 3 different amounts for the spacies up-b (1 from mid-animation, 1 from after the up-b animation is done which is landfallspecial, and what's the last one) ? And you mean 3 frames of landing lag from landfall special for the spacies up-b right?

Looking here http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-fox-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285177/ for reference
Sorry, I was mistaken, it's just the two. SplitsOnTrees was correct with what he said, it's either 3 or 6.
 

Army805

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
52
Is there anything out there on the physics of momentum (lack of better word) in melee? By momentum, I mean why exactly do you jump farther if you analog jump fully foward from dash, opposed to a fully forward analog jump from just standing, or why can Luigi WD forward, then walk forward and he will walk faster than normal for a bit? If I'm understanding something incorrectly, please let me know. I think I've heard something about if you're moving faster than you're max walk speed then you will slide during jumpsquat, aka why you slide during JC stuff, but I might be wrong, and that doesn't even apply to the Luigi example. I'm assuming there's different reasons for both examples because they're a bit different, but i'm confused on this momentum aspect of the melee physics engine.
 
Last edited:

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,337
Army805 Army805 I don't quite see what you're unsure about. You jump speed is faster from dash than stand because jump squat doesn't stop you and thus your speed before the jump naturally carries over to your speed in the air. With most characters limit speed during jump is higher than what can be achieved simply by the vector added from the jump itself. For walk there's a max speed, but if you're moving at higher speed at the start of the walk, you'll deccelerate to the max walk speed over time rather than instantly slowing down to it.
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
501
Location
Atlanta, GA
why exactly do you jump farther if you analog jump fully foward from dash, opposed to a fully forward analog jump from just standing
When you enter KneeBend you maintain your momentum before the jump, but friction still applies each frame of KneeBend. When you enter the air, the game multiplies your velocity on the last grounded frame by a horizontal jump velocity multiplier that ranges from .7 to 1 depending on your character. Then it adds a bit based on your analog X input. This is the analog jump mechanic and ranges from .6 to 1. Finally, the game checks this value and compares it to a maximum horizontal jump speed value. Your speed on the first airborne frame is the smaller of the two values.

An analog jump from standing would be 0*[velocity multiplier]+[analog effect], which ends up only being the analog portion which has a max value of 1 among characters. However, if you have speed left over from, say, dashing, the formula would become [dash speed - some traction]*[velocity multiplier] + [analog effect]. Dash and run speeds range from 1 to 2.3.

I'll go through an example. Captain Falcon has an initial dash velocity of 2. Say he dashes for 1 frame, then jumps which takes 4 frames. 4 frames of Falcon traction = .08*4 = .32. That means he is traveling at 1.68 on the last frame of jumpsquat. His horizontal jump velocity multiplier is 0.75 and his analog jump benefit is 0.95. 1.68*.75+.95=2.21. His max horizontal jump speed is 2.1. Min(2.21, 2.1)=2.1. Therefore he will travel at 2.1 melee meters per frame upon entering the air.

why can Luigi WD forward, then walk forward and he will walk faster than normal for a bit?
Luigi has a lot of speed out of wavedash. He keeps that speed when he exits the "landing lag" of the wavedash. If he starts walking out of the wavedash, it doesn't matter how fast he is going. The game just interprets it as a walk input, but he keeps his speed. It should be noted that when a character's ground speed exceeds their max walk speed, traction is applied doubly. Once Luigi slows down to max walk speed, he'll just remain at that speed because traction stops applying (if he continues to hold forward).

You will slide during jumpsquat as long as your speed before entering jumpsquat is greater than zero.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,147
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Fun fact of the day:
Most of you tech junkies probably know that jump cancelled usmashes and up-Bs are only possible because the devs didn't want to require players to do frame perfect inputs with up on the control stick. Then there are also standing fsmashes which have a 3(?)-frame window. Similarly, boost grabbing is possible so that people who use L/R+A to grab can accidentally press A a few frames before the trigger and still get the grab.

Unless I'm alone in my ignorance, I've never been able to figure why in the world jump cancelled grabs are possible. Then today I was thinking about throwing items, and I realized that if someone wanted to throw an item upwards with Z, they might very easily press up on the control stick a tad early, the same as with usmashes and up-Bs. As a result, the devs allowed players to interrupt jumpsquat with Z-actions for items, and the fact that grabs work as well is just a consequence of them using the same input as item throws!



Can anyone explain this? I understand hitting people with certain moves after missed techs can cause anti-gravity drift, but I'm not sure that anyone has ever explained why. From what I know, it seems to be a result of the game getting confused by the DownDamage animation's timer. Seeing (what appears to be) the same effect occur on an airborne opponent in hitstun is even more intriguing, and since the character isn't in DownDamage, I'm guessing that the timer on the shine's hitstun is what's causing the gravity problem and also allowing the Fox to jump to his death (something that's normally impossible; e.g. Luigi ladder and boomerang jump). Does anyone know what the limitations are with this scenario, and what role does KB stacking play, if any?
 
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