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Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,348
Bones0 Bones0 Explanation for the video clip: fox got hit with shine which gives high kb. After that the uair connects, but only the weak first hitbox. The uair hitbox connected late enough that the kb stacks. A hit always (I think) causes the fall speed of the victim to reset to 0, and that's why the trajectory after the uair looks a bit floaty. Note that foxes gravity is a lot higher than the rate at which kb decays and his max fall speed is high too, and thus resetting fall speed has huge impact for the trajectory in this case. The shine hitstun gets replaced by the short uair hitstun, which allows the fox to dj very soon. The dj replaces falling speed with an upward vector which also helps the fox to reach blast zone while there's still enough kb left from the shine and the uair to cause death.


I don't think your theory for the jc grab is plausible. I believe the game code allows (or restricts) actions that can be performed from different states, and then for each possible action it checks in some order if the correct inputs are in the buffer and chooses the first match. So it would've been easy to simply allow item throw out of jumpsquat while leaving grab impossible. This is just my guess though. It's based on the fact that always when there's multiple possible button inputs for a certain action, any one of them is accepted. Also there's another peculiar thing related to grabbing which is somewhat similar and which your theory doesn't explain: why isn't it possible to grab in SquatWait or SquatRV?
 
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reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
Is ASDI down teching an attack (say sheiks dash attack for example) if you're just standing there 0 frames of leniency? You either have to tech 20 frames beforehand or 1 frame beforehand during hitlag. you can't exactly tech 20 frames beforehand or you'll shield, so you can only do it the exact frame of hitlag before you reach the frame where you ASDI? It seems like I always accidentally get ASDI down techs
 
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Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
Location
Atlanta, GA
Is ASDI down teching an attack (say sheiks dash attack for example) if you're just standing there 0 frames of leniency? You either have to tech 20 frames beforehand or 1 frame beforehand during hitlag. you can't exactly tech 20 frames beforehand or you'll shield, so you can only do it the exact frame of hitlag before you reach the frame where you ASDI? It seems like I always accidentally get ASDI down techs
There are lots of ways to get a tech input without shielding. Most of the time, you can input the tech while you're in lag from an attack. People tend to hit you when you're in lag from an attack. Another way to get the tech input is to wavedash. Because teching also causes shielding, it's hard to bait someone into hitting you while standing still and then DSDI tech it.
 

Swagic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
406
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Indianapolis or South Florida
Because the search function here is quite difficult to work with-

How does reverse knockback work? Like Falcon's reverse knee or anything like that. Is there a backwards hitbox? I know DI can't reverse trajectory, so why would a move that should send forward reverse?
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
Location
Atlanta, GA
Because the search function here is quite difficult to work with-

How does reverse knockback work? Like Falcon's reverse knee or anything like that. Is there a backwards hitbox? I know DI can't reverse trajectory, so why would a move that should send forward reverse?
There are no reverse hitboxes. When you are hit by a hitbox, which way you are sent depends entirely on the positions of the characters relative to each other. Each character has a base position called a TopN bone which denotes the "center" of the character. The P1, P2, etc. labels you sometimes see are located directly over this TopN bone.

If P1 hits P2 and P2's TopN is on the right of P1's, P2 will be sent to the right. If P2's TopN is on the left of P1's, P2 will be sent to the left. You can see them in this video by Kadano where he calls them Base Position Stars.

In general, moves do not shift the TopN bone left or right unless the move causes movement for the character (think Fox side-b or something). An obvious example of this is Marth's fsmash. Even though Marth's fsmash moves his whole body rather far forward, his TopN bone, and therefore his center, remains near his back foot. You can see this if you have tags on or if you teeter on an edge with Marth and fsmash to see his whole body levitate over the edge while he stays up.
 

Traivlin

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
24
Is there any reason behind Fox's and Falco's Up-B (aimed up) reversing direction after fast-falling off a ledge?
 

Krusteaz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
75
Location
Yoshi's Story
Does anyone know the frame data for ganon's ledge dash. Like first frame you can jump on after falling and what frames to airdodge on etc.
 

Plunder

Smash Ace
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Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
Location
Port Royal
NNID
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Ganon can have a max of 18 frames of NIL from ledge release > DJ (2 frames wait if FF, 7 frame wait if not).

You can also completely horizontal PWL onto stage quite easily with Ganon giving you pretty much a near neutral reset from ledge. You have enough invincibility to ledgedash jab but right after you are vulnerable, most Ganon's ledge dash and then roll to neutral (covers tons of distance). Mix up to not be predictable (even Kage gets caught)

Something to note is that for the maximum NIL I-frame time you have to Sweetspot Up-B to the ledge and THEN go for the NIL. Your ECB is altered when you Up-B to ledge iirc, it's a bit higher allowing a sooner land on stage.

Here is Kadano's GAINT chart -



Grounded actionable ledge intangibility (abb. galint)
╔════════════════╤═╤══╤══╤══╤══╗
║Character ......│E│OL│PL│NL│AI║
╟────────────────┼─┼──┼──┼──┼──╢

║Zelda ..........│N│ 2│..│..│13
║Sheik ..........│Y│1113│..│ 8
║Popo ...........│N│13│..│..│..║
║Nana ...........│N│13│..│..│..║
║Captain Falcon .│Y│10121715
║Young Link .....│N│13│..│..│..║
║Donkey Kong ....│N│ 7│..│..│..║
║Doctor Mario ...│Y│14│..│..│..║
║Falco ..........│Y│1415│..│..║
║Fox ............│Y│1516│..│..║
║Kirby ..........│N│12│..│..│..║
║Bowser .........│N│ 8│..│..│..║
║Link ...........│Y│ 912│..│..║
║Luigi ..........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Mario ..........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Marth ..........│N│ 4│..│ 13
║Mewtwo .........│N│ 1│..│..│ 6
║Ness ...........│N│ 4│..│..│..║
║Peach ..........│N│..│..│..│..║
║Pichu ..........│Y│1516│..│..║

║Pikachu ........│Y│13│..│..│..║
║Jigglypuff .....│N│ 9│..│..│..║
║Samus ..........│N│ 4│..│..│11
║Yoshi ..........│N│ 2│..│..│ 8
║Mr. Game&Watch .│N│ 9│..│ 6│..║

║Ganondorf ......│Y│ 4918│..║
║Roy ............│N│ 5│..│..│..║
╟────────────────┼─┼──┼──┼──┼──╢
║Giga Bowser¹ ...│.│..│..│..│..║
║Master Hand² ...│.│..│..│..│..║
║Crazy Hand² ....│.│..│..│..│..║
║Male Wireframe .│Y│ 89│..│..║

║Female Wireframe│N│ 5│..│..│..║
║Sandbag³ .......│.│..│..│..│..║
╚════════════════╧═╧═══════════╝

E = ECB manipulation-abuse possible Yes/No (applied for OL only if the execution is managable/realistic; always applied for PL if it increases gaInt)
OL = Optimal ledgedash (hard to do frame-perfect, but possible)
PL = Perfect ledgedash (TAS-realm – requires a weird setup and/or tricky timing)
NL = No-impact landing (requires a very specific setup usually)
AI = Aerial Interrupt (Captain Falcon’s requires a very specific setup, namely grabbing the ledge out of his up-B apex, as well. Those of Samus and Yoshi do not)

These values are for FD. Other stages, especially YS and FoD, probably have slightly different values due to their ledges not being perfectly even.

This chart is not perfectly accurate. I’m sure there are a few aerial interrupts and lagless landing options that I didn’t find. The ledgedash data itself should be correct, though.

¹Giga Bowser’s ledgehop is too short to rise above the stage.
²Master Hand and Crazy Hand cannot move and thus are unable to grab the ledge.
³Sandbag can move, but grabbing the ledge is beyond his capabilities. (I might work on a Sandbag improvement hack if I find the motivation.)
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Messages
11,534
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The back country, GA
It's too bad Ganon only gets that bizarre 18 frames of INV after grabbing ledge with reverse up-b, not with a regular dj. From a regular dj, fp ledgedash jab is INV, as is fp ledgehop grab. Ledgehop jab is easily INV and underused.

Krusteaz Krusteaz you have a total of 3 frames to spare (IIRC, could be wrong). So after you drop, you could achieve 3 different heights from your dj and still ledgedash (the difference is merely pixels). If you're fp you won't NIL though, the dj is slightly too high. As far as when you should input R/L, screw frame data just do it at the peak of your jump (hold forward at the same time you input jump).
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Premium
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Vienna, Austria
The up-B doesn't need to be reversed to get ECB alignment for 18 galint. But yeah, having to grab from up-B apex still makes 18 galint impractical.
 

Sefthuko

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
15
Location
Vancouver, BC
Does anyone know what determines whether you land on your front (DownWaitD) or back (DownWaitU)? I haven't been able to find anything about it on smashboards or reddit.

I tried putting falco in his DamageFlyTop Animation and it seemed that landing before frame 43 he would land on his back and after he would land on his front. I made two gfys showing this with Marth's tipper downsmash and Marth's falling UpAir showing it isn't move or percentage dependent, only animation dependent:
https://gfycat.com/GeneralPassionateFlea (DownSmash - Landing Frame 42 vs 44)
https://gfycat.com/FeistyCharmingCirriped (UpAir - Landing Frame 36 vs 51) (Not as Precise)
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Does anyone know what determines whether you land on your front (DownWaitD) or back (DownWaitU)? I haven't been able to find anything about it on smashboards or reddit.

I tried putting falco in his DamageFlyTop Animation and it seemed that landing before frame 43 he would land on his back and after he would land on his front. I made two gfys showing this with Marth's tipper downsmash and Marth's falling UpAir showing it isn't move or percentage dependent, only animation dependent:
https://gfycat.com/GeneralPassionateFlea (DownSmash - Landing Frame 42 vs 44)
https://gfycat.com/FeistyCharmingCirriped (UpAir - Landing Frame 36 vs 51) (Not as Precise)
I got the same result testing with Fox. When the last frame of DamageFlyTop before landing was 43 or less, he landed face up. 44-59 he landed face down. He goes into tumble after 59, which still seems to have consistent landing animations, but it will require more testing to figure out the exact windows when it switches over from face up to face down during tumble.
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
Questions about links tether sweet spot
Sooo... Apparently this is some complicated crap. From my understanding Link must be close enough to grab the edge prior to the tether braking for the instant edge grab.
There are two factored that play into the speed link travels to the stage. The distance between link and the stage and the time link is in his 313 animation.
(tethered to the stage)
Link will move toward the stage faster when he is further from the stage. Link will also move tward the stage faster when you real in sooner. This is indicated by a little dimind that slowly moves downward thought links 313 animation.
There is also a small frame window that link can only tether sweet spot in. The problem is that that frame window changes depending on what stage your on. This is the result of the tethers ECB doing different things and different stages.
Connecting the hook shot as high on the stage is "optimal" but not necessary and where it will sweet spot and where it won't will depend on the stage.

THE QUESTIONS.
What causes links tether to break prior to reaching the ledge?
Why does the tethers ECB do different things on different stages?
How can I test this for myself?
Where all can link sweet spot on the stages and what are the frame Windows for each? (This ones a tall order if you can answer)
Why is link so weird?
 

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
A couple questions...

1. If you use controlstick + cstick up for upsmash OOS, is the earliest possible cstick input 1 frame after the control stick input? I do both sticks up simultaneously and it seems to work, though it's hard to tell.

2. Does falco's SH autocancel bair better frame advantage than SHFFL bair? I couldn't find the exact frame advantage from just googling. How big of a difference is it?

3. I'm looking at a hitlag/shieldstun table http://smashboards.com/threads/frames-of-hitlag-and-shield-stun-12-chars-done.111814/#post-2690028 . If i want to find frame advantage on shield for a lowest possible aerial, is it just (shieldstun - aerial landlag)? For example fox nair has 14 shieldstun, 7 frame L-cancel lag (iirc), then that would be 14-7=7 frame advantage fox? That seems way too good so I feel like I'm missing something... Hitlag should not matter because both attacker and defender are frozen which I read somewhere.
 
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Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
Location
Atlanta, GA
1. If you use controlstick + cstick up for upsmash OOS, is the earliest possible cstick input 1 frame after the control stick input? I do both sticks up simultaneously and it seems to work, though it's hard to tell.
To usmash OoS, you have to jump for 1 frame OoS and then usmash. So yes, the cstick up input comes 1 frame after the control stick up input.
2. Does falco's SH autocancel bair better frame advantage than SHFFL bair? I couldn't find the exact frame advantage from just googling. How big of a difference is it?
It really depends on the exact situation. Which frame of AC bair did you hit with? Was it the strong hit or the weak hit? Did you land on the first frame of the AC window or later? At best it's -11 I believe (if I did the counting right). The last strong hit is frame 7. AC window after frame 22. Frames 8 through 22 are lag, plus 4 frames of landing lag = 19 frames total of lag. Strong bair has 8 frames of shieldstun. So 19-8=11. -11 on shield. At best. Weak bair would be worse shieldstun but you can hit him later in the move.
At best, weak bair would be: hit on frame 19, land on frame 23, with 6 frames of shieldstun. 4 frames of falling lag + 4 frames of landing lag - 6 frames of stun = -2 on shield. Holy ****. But that's only if you hit with the last frame of bair and land ASAP. Which is unlikely.
SHFFL strong bair at best is -2 on shield, but that's if you delay it so you land the frame after it connects with shield. Using bair like that is a very bad idea. As long as you're -7 or better, you can shine before they can grab you which is the important part.
So maybe AC bair might be better possibly if used the right way in specific circumstances.
3. I'm looking at a hitlag/shieldstun table http://smashboards.com/threads/frames-of-hitlag-and-shield-stun-12-chars-done.111814/#post-2690028 . If i want to find frame advantage on shield for a lowest possible aerial, is it just (shieldstun - aerial landlag)? For example fox nair has 14 shieldstun, 7 frame L-cancel lag (iirc), then that would be 14-7=7 frame advantage fox? That seems way too good so I feel like I'm missing something... Hitlag should not matter because both attacker and defender are frozen which I read somewhere.
The number reported as "shieldstun" in that thread is actually shieldhitlag+shieldstun. You should subtract shieldhitlag and use that number instead. Fox nair would be 14-7=0, with 7 frames of landing lag. 7-7=0. +0 on shield.
 

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
To usmash OoS, you have to jump for 1 frame OoS and then usmash. So yes, the cstick up input comes 1 frame after the control stick up input.

It really depends on the exact situation. Which frame of AC bair did you hit with? Was it the strong hit or the weak hit? Did you land on the first frame of the AC window or later? At best it's -11 I believe (if I did the counting right). The last strong hit is frame 7. AC window after frame 22. Frames 8 through 22 are lag, plus 4 frames of landing lag = 19 frames total of lag. Strong bair has 8 frames of shieldstun. So 19-8=11. -11 on shield. At best. Weak bair would be worse shieldstun but you can hit him later in the move.
At best, weak bair would be: hit on frame 19, land on frame 23, with 6 frames of shieldstun. 4 frames of falling lag + 4 frames of landing lag - 6 frames of stun = -2 on shield. Holy ****. But that's only if you hit with the last frame of bair and land ASAP. Which is unlikely.
SHFFL strong bair at best is -2 on shield, but that's if you delay it so you land the frame after it connects with shield. Using bair like that is a very bad idea. As long as you're -7 or better, you can shine before they can grab you which is the important part.
So maybe AC bair might be better possibly if used the right way in specific circumstances.

The number reported as "shieldstun" in that thread is actually shieldhitlag+shieldstun. You should subtract shieldhitlag and use that number instead. Fox nair would be 14-7=0, with 7 frames of landing lag. 7-7=0. +0 on shield.
Thanks for the quick response.

So as a rule of thumb when AC bairing with falco, you want to hit as late as possible. Hitting with strong hit means you get assraped. Hitting with a late weakhit is ideal with best frame advantage being -2.

And wow, I had no idea fox's nair was that good. So it's possible to nair grab and beat out your opponent's shieldgrab
 

reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
Have some questions about fox/falco nair and bair.

1. When you hit, are there exactly 2 different damages you can deal? By that I mean is there exactly 1 set damage for a strong hit and 1 set damage for a weak hit? There's no more variation within strong and weak hits?

2. What determines if it's a strong or weak hit? Is it just the frame the hit connects? Or does spacing or any other variables matter
 

Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
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862
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Port Royal
NNID
1337-7734-8008
Have some questions about fox/falco nair and bair.

1. When you hit, are there exactly 2 different damages you can deal? By that I mean is there exactly 1 set damage for a strong hit and 1 set damage for a weak hit? There's no more variation within strong and weak hits?

2. What determines if it's a strong or weak hit? Is it just the frame the hit connects? Or does spacing or any other variables matter
1. Yes, for the most part

2. Hitboxes have timers - Early strong (clean) hit is usually a few frames at the start of the active hitbox duration
Late - is all the active hitbox frames after the initial clean/strong hitbox ends

2 a. Spacing can matter most moves have several hitboxes attached to different bones (body parts), some strong some weak some in the middle, all for the same exact move. Like Marth's Fsmash, strong at the tip weak inside and in the middle. A lot of moves have multiple hitboxes active at the same time with varying damages and KB.

The hitbox timer info is in the Masterhand tool I believe, other hitbubble info is in Kadano's spread sheet
 
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reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
1. Yes, for the most part
What do you mean by for the most part?

So you're saying for fox/falco nair/bair, weak/strong hit is determined by both time and hitbox? So it would be possible to have a certain time period (x frames into your nair/bair) where you can get both a strong or weak hit based on the hitbox?
 

Plunder

Smash Ace
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Port Royal
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I was talking about bairs and nairs in general

For Falco and Fox they only have a clean (strong) and a late (weak) properties on those moves. Each of those 2 does have multile hitbubbles for different parts but they all happen to have the same damage and KB. The late usually does 1/2 to 2/3 the damage and KB that a clean hit does.

I have never heard of the weak and strong being able to hit at the same time, don't think that is possible at all for Fox/Falco or any character since there is a buffer time between when KB can stack or be active (basically only one move can hit at a time and any subsequent will override the KB and trajectory 99.9% of the time)
 
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Kadano

Magical Express
Premium
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Feb 26, 2009
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2,160
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Vienna, Austria
What do you mean by for the most part?

So you're saying for fox/falco nair/bair, weak/strong hit is determined by both time and hitbox? So it would be possible to have a certain time period (x frames into your nair/bair) where you can get both a strong or weak hit based on the hitbox?
Yeah, that's true for bair. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Fox_(SSBM)/Back_aerial#Hitboxes

Nair is different, it does not have weak clean hitboxes. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Fox_(SSBM)/Neutral_aerial#Hitboxes
 
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Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
Location
Atlanta, GA
And wow, I had no idea fox's nair was that good. So it's possible to nair grab and beat out your opponent's shieldgrab
Theoretically yes, if you had port priority, but you would never use a nair like that. Delaying the hitbox on nair is a bad idea since it opens you up to counter attack or evasive movement. The nair is only active for 1 frame. Marth or Falcon could easily dash through Fox to avoid the hit, and of course they could dash away. Any character could stick out a counter hit and stuff the nair. You could do it on a read that the opponent will stay in shield, but delaying the nair doesn't get you much. It gets you a possibility of grab if you execute perfectly, but then again, that option is beaten by a simple roll. If you're just going to followup with shine like usual, the extra frame advantage doesn't aid you.
 
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reverie2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2015
Messages
158
Thanks for the responses guys. Does anyone know if SDI and ASDI distance is always the same? Does % affect it at all? Do different characters have different SDI/ASDI distances?
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Premium
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Messages
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Vienna, Austria
Thanks for the responses guys. Does anyone know if SDI and ASDI distance is always the same? Does % affect it at all? Do different characters have different SDI/ASDI distances?
It's the same for all characters.

SDI: 6.00 maximum distance
ASDI: 3.00 maximum distance
SSDI: 3.96 maximum distance
SASDI: 1.98 maximum distance

Edit: To clarify, SSDI is Shield Smash Directional Influence, SASDI is Shield Automatic Smash Directional Influence.
The full amount given here is achieved by having the control stick in perfect cardinal position (for example x = 1.0, y = 0.0). Lower input values will give equally lower SDI distance, and inputs below 0.7 will not SDI at all.
 
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Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
Location
Atlanta, GA
It's the same for all characters.

SDI: 6.00 maximum distance
ASDI: 3.00 maximum distance
SSDI: 3.96 maximum distance
SASDI: 1.98 maximum distance
To clarify for R reverie2 , you can get less than the max distance because of analog effects. Any control stick input with distance from (0,0) greater than .7 will count for an SDI input. So you could SDI with an input of (.7,0) and only travel .7*6=4.2 melee meters to the right, instead of the full 6.

Such an input is humanly impossible to do on purpose.
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
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Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
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Atlanta, GA
what are the frame windows for drill->grab as jigglypuff vs
  • fox
  • falco
  • sheik
  • marth?
If you land on the frame after dair hits and are frame perfect with the grab, drill grab starts working at these percents.

Fox: 59%+
Falco: 61%+
Sheik: 56%+
Marth?: 55%+

Fox and Falco take longer for it to start working beacuse they have the option of shine (which has to be frame perfect at the end of hitstun). Sheik and Marth get out at low percents using a frame perfect spot dodge with down and shield on the same frame, i.e. not shield+cstick buffered. If the opponent's only way they know to get out of the drill grab is to buffer spot dodge, then drill grab will work down to about 45% on them.
 

Vestboy_Myst

NJ TO & Peach knitwit
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601
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NJ
I have a question about optimizing vertical acceleration, specifically with Peach and other DJC characters. I think that this question will hold for those with regular jumps as well. Sorry if I explain it poorly, let me know if I should clarify it further.

We know if Peach wants to get up to a certain height as fast as possible, she has to cancel her rising full hop with the second jump BEFORE it reaches its apex. At some point the vertical acceleration of her first jump decreases to some low enough non-zero value at which it time is best to input the second jump. This keeps her from wasting time in the 'slower' rising state and get the the DJ 'dip' over with, so that she can resume the upward trajectory with a renewed upward acceleration.

Lets say we're in a Sheik edgeguard situation with Peach on FD. I hold ledge, Sheik up+b's to the stage, I get up and down tilt. Sheik is sent upward with considerable stun (assume no DI). Now the goal is for Peach to get up to Sheik as fast as possible and reverse nair (or uair depending on %), usually at the zenith of Sheik's arc.

There is certaintly a 'feel' to the timing, but I was curious if there were specific jump input frame intervals for each character that would make them reach the a certain height as quickly as possible. This interval would change with the specific height and if there was any horizontal component of course. Maybe as a general rule of thumb we can do stage level to top platform of battlefield, or the highest possible point reachable in X frames for each character

Another character I can think of that uses a quick double jump to cover vertical distance fast is Ganon, when wanting to get onto a platform to waveland. I think this is only faster on certain stages due to platform height (can someone confirm?)
Yeah you could calculate this quite easily with any character without special doublejumps. It becomes more difficult, but far from impossible, to calculate this for Peach and other special dj-ers. This is because they have set velocities on each frame of their doublejump, and when you perform an aerial it takes the velocity of the dj frame before you aerial and then subtracts fallspeed from that point onwards.

I can't think of an equation that will simply give you the correct answer (but maths is a huge subject, there probably is a way im forgetting). But that's not tha
I have a question about optimizing vertical acceleration, specifically with Peach and other DJC characters. I think that this question will hold for those with regular jumps as well. Sorry if I explain it poorly, let me know if I should clarify it further.

We know if Peach wants to get up to a certain height as fast as possible, she has to cancel her rising full hop with the second jump BEFORE it reaches its apex. At some point the vertical acceleration of her first jump decreases to some low enough non-zero value at which it time is best to input the second jump. This keeps her from wasting time in the 'slower' rising state and get the the DJ 'dip' over with, so that she can resume the upward trajectory with a renewed upward acceleration.

Lets say we're in a Sheik edgeguard situation with Peach on FD. I hold ledge, Sheik up+b's to the stage, I get up and down tilt. Sheik is sent upward with considerable stun (assume no DI). Now the goal is for Peach to get up to Sheik as fast as possible and reverse nair (or uair depending on %), usually at the zenith of Sheik's arc.

There is certaintly a 'feel' to the timing, but I was curious if there were specific jump input frame intervals for each character that would make them reach the a certain height as quickly as possible. This interval would change with the specific height and if there was any horizontal component of course. Maybe as a general rule of thumb we can do stage level to top platform of battlefield, or the highest possible point reachable in X frames for each character

Another character I can think of that uses a quick double jump to cover vertical distance fast is Ganon, when wanting to get onto a platform to waveland. I think this is only faster on certain stages due to platform height (can someone confirm?)
t much of a problem because we have computers, and calculating something 50 times and finding the lowest number will take no time at all.

I general idea would be:

v = fullhop velocity
f = fallspeed
d = dj velocity
t = total distance

Sum[ v - nf , { n, 0, x } ] + Sum[ d - nf , { n, 0, y } ] >= t

Have the computer try like 50 or so pairs of x and y, then sort through all the results for the lowest x value.

Doing this for special DJers will be like

dn = dj frame n velocity

Sum[ v - nf , { n, 0, x } ] + Sum[ dn , { n, 1, y } ] >= t

and you would have to write down all the velocities on each frame to feed the equation. This doesnt take into account how the velocity changes when you aerial, but wouldn't be too hard to do, you would just need to specify for how many frames you want that velocity to be calculated.

edit: at first i didnt think this would be that useful, as good players just have a feel for it, but it would be kinda cool if it was displayed on a visual graph with multiple total distances, creating a nice gradient. Im thinking like a screenshot of whatever character on whatever stage, with a rainbow line showing his fullhop height, then another rainbow line above showing all the possible heights from a doublejump, and each colour of the line matching the fullhop height with the fastest possible way to get to that dj height.

I will definitely put this on my to-do list, but I have some other big projects I want to finish first.

Also, it becomes more complicated when you want to waveland on a platform or something, as the ECB becomes locked to the Base Position Star for 9 frames after doublejumping (and fullhopping). That and the fact the ECB even exists, as the position calculated with above equations will be from the BPS. So you would have to know the ECB pattern of the fullhop and doublejump, which thankfully can be found easily, but it increases the workload by quite a lot.
bumping this request, not sure if you were still interested in it @schmooblidon
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
How do I test item properties? I want to do testing on links bombs.

Also what determines how far away you can catch items on the ground and in the air.
 
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khaleesi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
15
Location
socal
Hello does anyone know the command for shield stun? sort of like how tumbling is "damagefall." For the new 20xx i want to assign a color to when I'm in shield stun so i know the difference for timings and whatnot. Thanks!
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Premium
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
2,160
Location
Vienna, Austria
Hello does anyone know the command for shield stun? sort of like how tumbling is "damagefall." For the new 20xx i want to assign a color to when I'm in shield stun so i know the difference for timings and whatnot. Thanks!
GuardDamage.
 

khaleesi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
15
Location
socal
GuardDamage.
I don't think its guarddamage. I've been trying to get it to show for a long time now and its just not lighting up. I would have been able to see it at least once even if shield stun was like as small as 1 frame or soemthing
 

Sycorax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
502
Location
Atlanta, GA
I don't think its guarddamage. I've been trying to get it to show for a long time now and its just not lighting up. I would have been able to see it at least once even if shield stun was like as small as 1 frame or soemthing
turn on debug mode, press y+down on the dpad, and see for yourself
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I don't think its guarddamage. I've been trying to get it to show for a long time now and its just not lighting up. I would have been able to see it at least once even if shield stun was like as small as 1 frame or soemthing
Make sure you toggle overlays "on" for the proper controller ports.
 

Espi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
482
Location
Vancouver, BC
Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but can someone explain this marth killer? http://gfycat.com/EthicalLeadingEkaltadeta
I've never seen/done a full shield marth killer, is it a Yoshis only sorta thing? Forgot to mention that I was angling the shield the other way too (wasn't trying to MK in the first place).
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but can someone explain this marth killer? http://gfycat.com/EthicalLeadingEkaltadeta
I've never seen/done a full shield marth killer, is it a Yoshis only sorta thing? Forgot to mention that I was angling the shield the other way too (wasn't trying to MK in the first place).
He angled his up-B inward enough that the game considered his position to be left of you. His up-B pushed you right, and made you fall onto the ledge. Shield ASDI is not enough to counteract the pushback of Marth's up-B (at least not the part he hit you with, which seems to be the tip). However, just from a bit of testing, it seems like Marth can actually get onto the ledge before Falco when he's shield DIing the wrong way. I'm pretty sure in your situation Marth just up-Bed too low to get back, or maybe he Battlefielded the ledge (I think Kadano Kadano said this was possible on YS and PS). Consider yourself lucky!
 
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