Occam's Razor: Play Good

[joejoe22802]

THIS IS THE OP, SCROLL DOWN FOR UPDATE
Just some thoughts on the game, take from it what you will.

Disclaimer: I suck at match ups, I just play with cognitive/behavioral theory so thats how this will be worded.

One of the best things I've ever heard was Hugs' podcast, the simplicity it offers is amazing.

There is stuff people do and stuff people don't do. Simple as that. Certain things beat other things. If your opponent has a lacking vocabulary and you know this, you should win. Too many times people want to do the cool punish, they want to work for it. This might be a little confusing but they want to use a delayed rock to be an early paper, but often the person delays/extends/ or just does the paper again. Why not just play scissors. IF you KNOW they never do rock then why not just win.

This task seems impossible for many, HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO REMEMBER EVERYTHING THEY DO? Well you've probably been playing for a while, just use categories. It's way easier when you chunk things.

Here's somewhere to start.
Recovery in general.
Recovery from the edge.
Neutral Game, Approach
OoS Game
It gets a little more complex when you get to.
Combo Preference
Combo DI
Where they go when you start a fresh stock.
Aerial timing (TBH part of approach).

And you don't need to reset for every other player, they're all the same sadly… Or at least there are certain archetypes of players (I.E. Zhu vs Shiz) or maybe in slightly altered styles (PP vs Westballz)

A lower example is this. I'm sheik playing fox and I have them on the edge trying to get back up. I stay right below the left handside of the right platform. I'm ready for all the generic stuff(WD on, Dair on, jump back illusion, get up attack). Bad players would swing(overextend) and allow the fox to get on but just play it cool. In many situations, I'm willing to bet they'll WD on the platform and do an retreating aerial, so I just swing. For this to happen, I was just aware of average fox vocabulary and aware of the whys, the fact that he is scared and feels the need to trick/gimmick me. Lack one or the other and you get whomped by perceived "random" play.

A huge part of this game is punishing overextensions. This becomes less visual. At this point you have to think, Why?
Why does he always jab after slap.
Why no fast fall for the dair and yet a delayed shine (b/c you blow)

The good thing about all these things is that they're punishable, you just gotta figure out how. Sure in a lot of high level games people are either safe enough with they're spacing and timing that they don't get punished. BUT, for most people they just have a sloppy neutral game where people get to throw out attacks with no risk of getting punished. These usually happens when both players are both oriented in the the same way (offensively or defensively).

I'm sure a lot of people will read this and think that this is insanely basic, WHAT ABOUT MINDGAMES? Well at mid level and below, mindgames don't win games, they clutch them. Neutral game wins games. This isn't for everyone, specially people better than myself.

Learn the rules before you can break them.

Last of all this is not brushed up at all, I wrote it and felt like I should post it before I decided not to. I'll edit later.

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V2, still incomplete.

Just some thoughts on the game, take from it what you will.

One of the best things I've ever heard was Hugs' podcast, the simplicity it offers is amazing. The point of this post is to break down a way of playing and thinking about the game that is simply. I believe that this outline/skeleton enables players to learn with more flexibility as well as retain more information.

There is stuff people do and stuff people don't do. Simple as that.

Certain things beat other things. If your opponent has a lacking vocabulary and you know this, you should win. Too many times people want to do the cool punish, they want to work for it. Just try to remember what they do and more specifically what they like to do most and do the thing that beats them.

This task seems impossible for many, HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO REMEMBER EVERYTHING THEY DO? Well you've probably been playing for a while, just use categories. It's way easier when you chunk things. Chunking is just a tool to memorize things with more ease, same as categorizing.

Here's somewhere to start.
Recovery in general.
Recovery from the edge.
Neutral Game, Approach
OoS Game
It gets a little more complex when you get to.
Combo Preference
Combo DI
Where they go when you start a fresh stock.
Aerial timing (TBH part of approach).

And you don't need to reset for every other player, they're all the same sadly… Or at least there are certain archetypes of players (I.E. Zhu vs Shiz) or maybe in slightly altered styles (PP vs Westballz)

A lower example is this. I'm sheik playing fox and I have them on the edge trying to get back up. I stay right below the left handside of the right platform. I'm ready for all the generic stuff(WD on, Dair on, jump back illusion, get up attack). Bad players would swing(overextend) and allow the fox to get on but just play it cool. In many situations, I'm willing to bet they'll WD on the platform and do an retreating aerial, so I just swing. For this to happen, I was just aware of average fox vocabulary and aware of the whys, the fact that he is scared and feels the need to trick/gimmick me. Lack one or the other and you get whomped by perceived "random" play.

- For clarification overextend refers to doing a move that is not necessary. for example a slap that is completely misspaced or a slap followed by a jab even if the opponent has moved directly after the slap.

This comes from a slightly different thought but....
A huge part of this game is punishing overextensions.
Why does he always jab after slap.
Why no fast fall for the dair and yet a delayed shine (b/c you blow)

The good thing about all these things is that they're punishable, you just gotta figure out how. Sure in a lot of high level games people are either safe enough with they're spacing and timing that they don't get punished. BUT, for most people they just have a sloppy neutral game where people get to throw out attacks with no risk of getting punished. This usually happens when both players are both oriented in the the same way (offensively or defensively).

Learn the rules before you can break them.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Uhm... I disagree with a large portion of this post. I'll provide a more in depth response later

 

[Dan Salvato]

I agree that mindgames don't work very well at mid-level play, since your opponent is a little more autopilot and won't respond to your mindgames in the way you'd like. Most of this post makes sense for that level, and I believe that abiding to this sort of mental game is what transcends a player past mid-level play. However, approaching high-level play means your opponent won't be doing the same things over and over, and he'll be changing up his game in response to your own game at the same time.

 

[leffen]

I think people are confusing mind games with mixups.


If you wanna learn how to play more in depth theory wise, then you should look up Street fighter/FGC articles/videos, because the smash ones that do exists are ****ing dumb.

 

[Massive]

Mind games are so loosely defined at this point that this is basically all gibberish.

 

[joejoe22802]

@ .vanir awesome.

@ IE. I believe you've misunderstood me. Mindgames do work at many levels, I'm just saying in the grand scheme of things neutral game is really the first hurdle. Tricks don't hold the same value if your tech skill does not allow different spacings and timings. As for the long term of getting better, this is just a baseline. Once you see the game in this way, you can eventually understand how others break these rules. Its just an easier way to memorize something. Instead of having a huge amount of rules, there is a large core and exceptions to the rules. I believe this is much more manageable.

@leffen Please link me or inform us rather than just saying **** like that. What is the difference? Why is it relevant.

@massive. This whole post isn't really about mindgames. I dont even use the word until I dismiss it.

 

[DerfMidWest]

10% of any given leffen post is actual useful information.
20% is telling you that you are bad at the game
The other 70% is how he thinks hes some legit player that anybody gives a **** about.

 

[leffen]

that is a very bad pie chart.

its more like

100% this thread is a big ****ing mess who the **** would listen to this guy
and 10% jesus vanir who are you and why do you spend your days flaming me with these terrible, uncreative posts.

 

[Oracle]

leffen why do you always sound so butthurt?

on topic: good post joey, very helpful

 

[Lovage]

leffens back LMFAO

 

[DerfMidWest]

that is a very bad pie chart.

its more like

100% this thread is a big ****ing mess who the **** would listen to this guy
and 10% jesus vanir who are you and why do you spend your days flaming me with these terrible, uncreative posts.

That makes 110% you silly man.
And i spend all my time flaming you soley because of you text color and posting style.

 

[Bones0]

I think people often confuse mixups and mindgames. Mixups are just different options that work at different levels of success based on which mixup your opponent is expecting. Mindgames tend to be things that you do to throw them off of what they expected to happen completely. So a Falcon uairing instead of kneeing when he expects the opponent to DI in is a mixup, whereas a mindgame might be dairing them because they'd be so surprised they'd miss the tech. Idk, that's how I usually discriminate between the two. Basically the more ballsy the choice, the more it is mindgames as opposed to a mixup.

SF/FGC articles and videos tend to be vastly superior to Smash content when it comes to discussing things like in depth theory. Probably because such a large portion of the Melee community can't even move around the stage properly, let alone consciously implement different strategies within a single match.

 

[rawrimamonster]

I think the best basic summary of mindgames I heard years ago was "predict and be unpredictable".

 

[Biglard]

That makes 110% you silly man.

This is because of the russian influence. In Russia they use a 140% scale, so in eastern and northern Europe they use a 110% scale. A consequence is that in south-western Europe we only use a 80% scale.

 

[DerfMidWest]

What the **** .-.
Why is that even a thing.

 

[Biglard]

I know, we kinda forgot the original meaning of percent ("for one hundred"), but hey it's not stranger than inches/yards/feet compared with meters if you think about it. It's just something you've got to get the hang of.

Spoiler

By the way,

 

[Vkrm]

Can somebody give me an example of a mind game in melee?

 

[Bones0]

DDing super fast.

 

[Oracle]

Sometimes if i feel my opponent is getting overwhelmed by luigi i wavedash down repeatedly to throw them off. More for laughs but its payed off before.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

mindgames hasn't been a thing since 08 b/c people can react now
I agree with the central concept of this post and support it, though don't consign with your wording all the time
people just gotta look at what they're getting hit by and do some **** about it because chances are they're gonna try it again

 

[leffen]

mindgames hasn't been a thing since 08 b/c people can react now

lollllllllllllllllllllllllll

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think that simply reacting to your opponent, and relying on solid things is better than tricking them, and so I agree with that much of what Mafia is implying, but mindgames seem to be very prevalent, still, in our "metagame."

Then again, what is a "mindgame," really? Ever since I started playing, no one has been able to give me a satisfactory answer.

 

[joejoe22802]

I'll update and revamp this so its actually helpful

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

I remember a long time ago, someone I know who is really smart (forgot who), told me that people use the term "mindgames" as a supplement for actual knowledge about the game

that being said I don't think you guys should focus on like 2 sentences out of the whole post LOL

 

[Massive]

that being said I don't think you guys should focus on like 2 sentences out of the whole post LOL

I mean, the whole point of the original post was to dismiss "mind games" (means nearly anything) at mid level play and promote "neutral game" (undefined, means nothing). The examples were rock paper scissors (wut) and similarly vague anecdotes.

I'm not even sure what this thread is about...

• You promote "chunking" (sounds delicious/disgusting) and talk about basic areas of play.
  • Everybody already knows that practicing and improving fundamentals will make them a better player.
• You note that mid-level players mess up more frequently than high level ones.
  • Duh.
• "A huge part of this game is punishing overextensions. This becomes less visual. At this point you have to think, Why?"
  • Why? I mean, what are you even talking about? If Falco overextends his leg he needs to take a Tylenol and go to the doctor. This is very visual, as it will bend the wrong way and then he will squawk a lot more than normal.
• You dismiss mindgames for some reason.
  • Mindgames are so broadly defined at this point, that many of the things you mentioned earlier could easily be considered mindgames. You're making several points and dismissing them later. I am the confuse.

Also, your text is like some kind of tealish color. I think it's got gangrene or something, you should get it looked at before it turns blue and starts hurting everyone's eyes.

 

[joejoe22802]

Alright I don't know if you're just being difficult or if the way you think really limits what you can gain from it. Maybe it really just makes no sense, but some people seem to make sense of it. Either way, I'll reword it.

And if you need more concrete explanations here we go.

The point of the post was not to dismiss mindgames. Neutral game is confusing, I agree I'll rename it baseline knowledge. Rock Paper Scissors requires you to stretch your imagination and make operational variables (Things that you can do in the game that beat each other)

1) Chunking is a way of making things easier to remember. Your play on words is very cute though. Yeah of course getting better makes you better. This is just a means of organizing thus making it easier to manage.

2) Anything can be wrong if you take it out of context.

3) I understand that overextensions and visual are vague. Run with it. But if you can't overextensions is not related to spacing in this case. I mean when they do a move that is not necessary. Either something thats just way off like attacking the air, or doing a drill delayed shine when the other player has been prone to roll after the drill. Why and visual are meant to seperate the specific action on its own (physically) and why it was chosen(mentally).

4) It doesn't matter, I created the problem I was attempting to caution against.

No.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I know, we kinda forgot the original meaning of percent ("for one hundred"), but hey it's not stranger than inches/yards/feet compared with meters if you think about it. It's just something you've got to get the hang of.

Spoiler

By the way,

Oh i agree the american measurement system is horrible.
Thats why we all learn metric in school and stuff lol.
We do use litters and stuff for drinks though (except milk is in gallons)

But distance is different than Percent.

 

[Bones0]

Units of time is by far the most ******** thing, and that's what everyone uses so no one can excuse themselves. 365 days per year (along with leap year BS) is obviously out of our control, but we could easily use a metric system for seconds per minute and minute per hour.

Also I copied Leffen's post as closely as possible because it seemed perfectly fine to me and no one complained about my post. Get exposed biased haters.

 

[DerfMidWest]

No, your text color is blue, so nobody is mad at you.

 

[rjgbadger]

Also I copied Leffen's post as closely as possible because it seemed perfectly fine to me and no one complained about my post. Get exposed biased haters.

if you wanted a flame war you dont need to ask for one bones0, you are already one of the top 10 most consistantly awful posters on this board. you post faaaaar to much and its almost always useless. at least leffen is one of the best players in europe, what are you, the best player in your household?

 

[Van.]

who the **** is rjbadger

nvm nevada so we have no reason to know

bones0=best poster

 

[EthereaL]

Playing the "neutral" game still relies on reading the opponent, or "mind games".

You can limit your opponent to 2-3 options, but they can still choose any of them.


Edit: If your intent was to simplify the learning of fundamentals, then you might want to make your post comprehensible.

Edit2: Actually, I have no clue what your intent could be. All you've done is state axioms.

 

[joejoe22802]

yeah you're basically right, i meant to help with fundamentals kinda.

The reason why its even more confusing is because this was stream of consciousness so it drifted into different areas of thinking that didn't go with my starting point.

I'm gonna spend a bunch of time writing something coherent.

Please Close This.

 

[Bones0]

if you wanted a flame war you dont need to ask for one bones0, you are already one of the top 10 most consistantly awful posters on this board. you post faaaaar to much and its almost always useless. at least leffen is one of the best players in europe, what are you, the best player in your household?

My brother's Roy gives me trouble, but we're doing our weekly MM next Saturday, and I'm sure I've got him this time. I've caught on to his counter patterns, so he's going down.

 

[Xyzz]

Units of time is by far the most ******** thing, and that's what everyone uses so no one can excuse themselves. 365 days per year (along with leap year BS) is obviously out of our control, but we could easily use a metric system for seconds per minute and minute per hour.

Also I copied Leffen's post as closely as possible because it seemed perfectly fine to me and no one complained about my post. Get exposed biased haters.

You forgot hours per day :trollface:
Would work out pretty well, too. There's 86400 seconds in a day for now and are super arbitrarily defined too.
I'm totally in favour of separating each day in 10000 slightly shorter seconds, with 100 of them making a minute, 100 minutes making one hour and 10 of these completing the day ... Let's propose that somewhere :D

 

[Rockenos]

This thread has inspired me to change my text color back to the default.