Okay. Don't read into this too much. This comment is straight to Niiro, just like the last one was to the Deoxys dude, and the one before that to the "evil-cat" dude. The only reason I'm not commenting on aim straight to him is because this post is 2 Microsoft word pages long, and won't fit in an Aim text message. Zook, I'lll comment to you in a second. People, if you aren't Niiro, please don't even worry about this post. I'll get to your comments in a second.
Without futher delay *charges energy* PREPARE FOR MY WALL OF TEXT ATTACK, NIIRO! *fires*
First of all, thank you for the NVE. Although it’s only Firemoves that are made not very effective against Tyranitar. Ice moves still full damage, which again, makes them a better choice to a pokemon with only Flamethrower and Ice beam left against it.
Of course Porygon-Z is theory right now. I can’t test it because my game’s gone. But this is just recalling different memories from the past, as well as generalizations about stats and such. Speaking of which, I bet Porygon –Z could skip the middleman of Ice Beam and with all of the bonuses of Stab, Adaptablity, and an item on its side, outright 1 hit kill Garchomp instantly with Hyperbeam, but Garchomp might still Earthquake it before hand. Then again, this is all theory. We’d need to test it in accurate controlled environments and see how well it would do. I NEED MY GAMES BACK SO I CAN DO THIS TESTING RIGHT! I wonder if I can use Battle-Revolution to accurately test this.
And about the whole predicting your enemy thing, again, in the real games (which is where most of the things on forums should be tested on), I've used a high iv speed and special ev Lucario (I named it Brawlario) to slay Garchomps. Most of them assume that he'd run away at the first fight of a chomp, and sword dance while Lucario goes to town. I've even 1 hit killed them before hand with my moves. And one of them that did survive the first Dragon Pulse found themselves still dying due to extremespeed. Not everything can be predicted, despite how important it is to predict.
If I really wanted concrete counters, even with the berry involved, anything that has bulky defenses and offenses and that also packs dual Ice-Shards is capable of being listed as a counter. If you want predictions (which I admit, thinkning about it now, Predicting and Strategisting are the same thing, I can’t be stubborn and say I’m not predicting the possibilities of the Garchomp’s attacks), I predict that Dewgong, definitely Cloyster, Lapras, Articuno (assuming it isn’t an uber), Donphan, Glaile, Glaceon, my Mamoswine, and Froslass all have the stats to pull it off… weird that most of the pokemon that can learn Ice-Shard at all come packed with the stats to use the move. The only others include all of these’s unevolved forms, Delibirdy, Obamasnow, Weavile and Smeargle. But still, survive the first hit while Ice-Sharding, and the berry goes buh-bye. Then, especially since it’s already weakened, the 2nd Ice-Shard ends it. This is also, of course, theory on my part, but many of these have high hp and defenses, and you don’t even need too much offense to kill while doing x2 and then 4x the damage. The occasional nevermeltice helps, but these guys still can
get the job done this way.
But there is still Avalance. Anything that is capable of surviving the hit and countering with Avalance gets a guaranteed instant kill. The list gets much bigger at that point, including Blastoice, Slowbro, Kangaskhan, Starmie, Gyarados, Lapras, Articuno, Feraligatr (one of my favorite starters), Slowking, …maybe Ursarang…, Suicune (my favorite of the 3 Dogs), …maybe Tyranitar..., Swampert, …maybe Wailord (crapy defense makes it iffy, but it actually has better defense and similar hp to Blissey)…, Crawdaunt, Milotic, Castform (not nearly as questionable as you’d think), Glalie, Walrein, Regice, Empoleon, …maybe Obamasnow (although I feel that if it can survive the hit, it should just use a never-miss-in-hail-Blizzard attack and skip the friggin middleman), Rhyperior (Solid Rock seems borderline rigged. It doesn’t even need a berry to save its skin
), Glaceon, Mamoswine (I LOVE YOU BEHEMOTH! <3), and Froslass. All of these pokemon (except for Castform and Wailord) have the basic defense stats that, if breed right, lets them survive that first hit, and if they survive the first hit, Garchomp may as well kill itself first, so it doesn’t feel the instant killing 4x (occasionally stabbed) item boosted Avalance (the hit first effect counters the effect of the berry, btw). And if Garchomp is some how still alive, it will be at the point where anything that outspeeds it (and there’s around 30 none ubers that do it naturally), can use a priority or priority stab move (I don’t have to make a list for this do I?), or that have the attack to use a choice scarf (which means almost anything from Pikachu to even Regigigas.
) to floor whatever frozen remains of Garchomp are still in play, assuming it some how did live from the Avalance and knocked out the pokemon still in play,since some of them are capable of living through multiple hits. Other riskier possibilities (that I don’t see happening, but still have the move and potential to try) include Nidoqueen, Nidoking (one of my other favorites), Jinx, Blissey (against a special chomp maybe, but not against a physical one), Exploud, Aggron (if it had maxed defense and hp, it MIGHT but I don’t see it surviving an Earthquake without the berry, and it would still be hard as heck to live through one of Garchomp’s Earthquakes), Sharpedo, Rampardos (it has the attack power to switch in while a Sword Dance goes on, and instantly stop the party with Ice-Fang, but lacks the defense to use Avalance right. Better off giving it a Choice-Scarf and letting it Rampage rather than try to take a hit), Bastidon (a 4x weakness to Earthquake instantly says no, otherwise it would be a perfect Avalance candidate), Weavile (it’s better off using it’s attack power and speed to go for the instant kill, rather than using a questionable defense and praying to take a hit),and Smeargle (who might be able to learn every move, but does not have the stats to back up straight up attacking). This second set of pokemon can still use Avalance, but might not live to be able to use it, and some of them are better off fighting other pokemon, or trying to use different methods to take it down (Weavile and Rampardos again, very note worthy examples).
In 1v1 combat, both of them coming in at the same time, Mamoswine can still take down Garchomp using either them Avalance move or the Ice-Shard attacks, and there are still possibilities of him doing it even after Garchomp has had a turn to boost while Mamoswine switches in. I’ve had the luck of being able to do so in the past with my Brave Mamoswine, but one with a defensive nature that reduces speed, with about 250 evs in defense, 150 of them in hp, and the other 100 in offense can probably come in after the Power-up and still survive, which means that Garchomp isn’t going to be living much longer.
As for me countering Garchomp, another dude was talking about how that Mamoswine couldn’t use hail and Snow-Cover to avoid Fireblast and then proceed to 1 hit kill with Blizzard, because of the influence of Tyranitar and Hippodon. But he had been arguing about Mamoswine countering it by himself, and yet he felt like adding in the elements of two other Pokemon to be an issue. And if he wants to bring in help, nothing says that Mamoswine couldn’t have anyone supporting him too, from all of the entry hazards to an already set up Hail. You seem to overestimate Outrage, because plenty of defensive Pokemon (a heck of a lot if not most of them listed above) can survive a hit and fight back. Salamance might not have an ice move to use after Intimidating Garchomp, but it can still target Garchomp’s weaker special defense to blast it, and with a choice scarf and Draco Meteor, Garchomp’s chance of living is incredibly limited. If it takes two Ice-Beams to kill a defense eved Dragonite, then it can live through 1 outrage and attack with it’s own ice or dragon attacks, or heck, use other moves that still do damage. It’s not like Garchomp is that uber. And Dusknoir’s stats means that Garchomp would have to be a special sweeping variant in order to fight it. It defends against it’s physical moves easily with a meaty defense and hp, can burn it to make them not nearly as effective, and has ice moves and ghost moves to break it.
Also, don’t label everything I say as theory. Get on the actual games and test them out yourself, and you’ll see they aren’t as “theorymon” as you think. Not to mention that the last part of that that you labeled as “Theorymon” wasn’t even about Pokemon, but about the war against me for not beliving in Garchomp. It’s honestly not as good as people think. Don’t treat it like the way scrubs treat Metaknight. Or I’ll have absolutely no reason to give a crap about anything you have to say, simply because you give up far too easier than you should… which is weird in itself… people act like Metaknight is unbeatable, and will defend that to the ends of the earth, and yet if they put that much effort into kicking his butt, they’d find that it’s much easier to do than they thought….
Again, my Wall of Text attack was aimed at Niiro. If you have something to say, you can say it, but I feel like using my brain more than I used to, so it will take me a while to get back to you on your comments. And Zook, I'll get yours charged up as soon as I'm done with my college application.
And anyone is still hung up on the whole "Yachechomp" has no counters thing, there are plenty of pokemon blessed with even higher defenses than Mamoswine does, capable of surviving even boosted versions of it's attacks, and that can respond back with powerful Avalances (see above if you're so interested in them), and others that can use Dual Ice-Shards if the chomp tries to dance before it attacks, putting its little party on ice (again, see up). And I really haven't even explored using special attackers that can get through Garchomps assaults either, and there are plenty of them.
Niiro, since you guys don't seem to like actually testing these and playing it out to find the truth, go ahead and use your Emulator. Calculate the high amount of hp, attack, defense, and special defense that most of these pokemon have. And then calculate how much damage Avalance or Ice-Shard will do to Garchomp. Again, if any of the Ice-Sharders can survive the first hit and get it off (which most of them can), they instanly kill Garchomp the second turn. And if the Avalancers can survive the first hit and use Avalance, Garchomp instantly dies, even with the Berry in place. Please read your Wall of Text attack and find this out for yourself.
