=O new OU List without Gallade =O

[Pink Reaper]

Salamence says "LO Crunch."

I have never once, in my entire life, ever seen a Salamence with Crunch.

 

[Zook]

swampy says "lol wut?" *uses ice beam*

Bingo! Correct answer!

@PR: Really? I used to use Crunch on my Salamences all the time. Got those Azelfs and toasters.

 

[Deleted member]

a counter requires that you be able to switch in safely regardless of the opponent's possible moveset. Unless Salamence gives away its moveset, you can't know what will counter it, so it effectively has no counters.

Even Swampert isn't a fan of specsmence. Before platinum moves, you could EV Cresellia to take any 2 attacks from salamence or any 1 after dragondance and OHKO it with Ice Beam from the common movesets. I'm pretty sure that Outrage fixed that problem though.

edit: I also use Crunch on my Salamence.

 

[zrky]

salamance doesn't learn any grass types does he, or why isn't swampy a fan of specsmence?

 

[WouW]

Draco Meteor has a chance to OHKO a Swampert with max HP/0 Special Defense EVs.

 

[zrky]

why wouldn't you give swampy sp def EV's?

 

[WouW]

Why would you? Swampert usually needs the Defense more vs. a lot of Ground types, like Rhyperior, the main things it counters.

 

[zrky]

just surf the stupid rock

 

[WouW]

There's the thing called switching in. You take an attack when that happens.

 

[zrky]

swampy takes very little damage from most of rhyperiors attack though I understand the OHKO from specsmence, but not rhyperior

 

[WouW]

Choice Band Rhyperior 2HKOs the **** beast with Earthquake. Call that very little.

 

[c3gill]

yall shouldve mentioned why the small additions were made... it was a gradual change to the current tier system, which doesnt include a BL tier. LAME!

 

[WouW]

No, those were two separate things. (this became before the BL cut).

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I had no idea that Garchomp was an uber.... especially since Mamoswine (one of my permanent team members) and Weavile both slaughter him....

 

[zrky]

2 out of how many?
and this thing is OLD, please don't bump

 

[Zook]

I had no idea that Garchomp was an uber.... especially since Mamoswine (one of my permanent team members) and Weavile both slaughter him....

You've never met a Yachichomp, have you?

 

[Niiro]

yachechomp=over-rated
scarfchomp is where its at

 

[Zook]

yachechomp=over-rated
scarfchomp is where its at

Yachechomp has no counters, though.

But yeah, I used to pretty much main Scarfchomp. That thing was a beast.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

What was Rhyperior previously?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I'll be honest, I have never met a Yachechomp. What is that?

OMG ALL OF THESE WEIRD NAMES CONFUSE ME! ;.; Also, I thought that a Porygon-Z with 1 to 2 Nasty plots, the max special attack evs, running a timid nature, equiped with a focus sash (to live incase Garchomp straight up sweeps) or a Life Orb (assuming Garchomp Sword Dances after switching in, assuming it's not starting) using either Hyper Beam + Adaptability or Ice Beam + Download were ways to defeat Garchomp... even if it does use that berry that halves it's Ice Beam Weakness, several simulations have shown it needing Staraptor's helping in finding it's chomp blasted 3 miles away...

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Not to mention that while Garchomp Sword-Dances twice, my Mamoswine would curse itself twice, giving it a defense x2, an attack x2, and Garchomp would definitely hit first, doubling the power of the impending Avalance, which is already doubled by 2 due to weakness, and increased further by Stab and by LifeOrb. Finishing with an Ice-Shard afterward, which would probably get the full x4 since Garchomp will have eaten it's weird berry by then, as well as stab and lifeorb boost, and Garchomp would have to be pretty tough to hang in that long.... and Mamoswine might still survive the assault to use one more Ice-Shard. Although, I should test this theory. Maybe a 2nd avalance would be better than 1 Avalance and then Ice-Shard, since if Garchomp survives the first avalance and the ice shard, there's still a high chance of it killing my poor Mamoswine... However, there's the fact that Garchomp MUST be packing Firefang, Irontail or Ironhead, or BrickBrake to do super effective damage, or else the Mamoswine Tank could still live through most of it's assaults.... pure boosted offense doesn't seem to beat out tactically lowered speed boosted defense and boosted offense... Speed Lowering Natures are occasionally worth something... my Brave Mamoswine kicks butt! Brave, Max Hp, Max Attack, Curse, Avalance, Ice Shard, Earthquake, and a Life Orb boost... I need to get my other game back to test, but I don't even think that Garchomp would survive that.... Btw, is the Yacheberry the weird one it uses to not get slaughtered by Ice-Attacks for one round? I think it might be... in which case, I elect Mamoswine as a Garchomp Counter!

 

[Zook]

I'll be honest, I have never met a Yachechomp. What is that?

OMG ALL OF THESE WEIRD NAMES CONFUSE ME! ;.; Also, I thought that a Porygon-Z with 1 to 2 Nasty plots, the max special attack evs, running a timid nature, equiped with a focus sash (to live incase Garchomp straight up sweeps) or a Life Orb (assuming Garchomp Sword Dances after switching in, assuming it's not starting) using either Hyper Beam + Adaptability or Ice Beam + Download were ways to defeat Garchomp... even if it does use that berry that halves it's Ice Beam Weakness, several simulations have shown it needing Staraptor's helping in finding it's chomp blasted 3 miles away...

An Outraging Garchomp would kill an un-sashed Porygon-Z, and Sashed one would still not be able to slay a Chomp unless it has already been out a few turns to NP up. In which case it wouldn't be a counter.

Not to mention that while Garchomp Sword-Dances twice, my Mamoswine would curse itself twice, giving it a defense x2, an attack x2, and Garchomp would definitely hit first, doubling the power of the impending Avalance, which is already doubled by 2 due to weakness, and increased further by Stab and by LifeOrb. Finishing with an Ice-Shard afterward, which would probably get the full x4 since Garchomp will have eaten it's weird berry by then, as well as stab and lifeorb boost, and Garchomp would have to be pretty tough to hang in that long.... and Mamoswine might still survive the assault to use one more Ice-Shard. Although, I should test this theory. Maybe a 2nd avalance would be better than 1 Avalance and then Ice-Shard, since if Garchomp survives the first avalance and the ice shard, there's still a high chance of it killing my poor Mamoswine... However, there's the fact that Garchomp MUST be packing Firefang, Irontail or Ironhead, or BrickBrake to do super effective damage, or else the Mamoswine Tank could still live through most of it's assaults.... pure boosted offense doesn't seem to beat out tactically lowered speed boosted defense and boosted offense... Speed Lowering Natures are occasionally worth something... my Brave Mamoswine kicks butt! Brave, Max Hp, Max Attack, Curse, Avalance, Ice Shard, Earthquake, and a Life Orb boost... I need to get my other game back to test, but I don't even think that Garchomp would survive that.... Btw, is the Yacheberry the weird one it uses to not get slaughtered by Ice-Attacks for one round? I think it might be... in which case, I elect Mamoswine as a Garchomp Counter!

But what if the Garchomp doesn't Dance twice? What if he decides to rip a gaping hole in your pig with a single SD Outrage, which would do more than a Super Effective Iron Head?

Example:

Turn 1
Me: Garchomp uses SD
You: Mamoswine uses Curse

Turn 2
Me: Garchomp uses Outrage, doing between 386 and 454 damage, which could kill Mamoswine
You: Mamoswine uses Curse or Avalanche. Avalanche would OHKO Garchomp (if my calculations are right), but the Life Orb would kill himself.

Turn 3
You: Piggy fails to kill Chompy with an Ice Shard
Me: Chompy kills Piggy

You could make a Garchomp counter, but it'd have to be so specialized that that would be the only thing it could do- counter Garchomp. Which means that every team would need a specialized Chomp counter which is ********.

 

[Niiro]

nothing counters ****ing yache-chomp. stop trying.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Once I get my other pokemon game back, I'll be testing this in direct combat. Right now, I only have my Pearl version, and I kinda reset it... my other pokemon are on my Diamond version, and it got lost at the Chiropractors... ;.; In this situation though, I could just throw an Adamant Mamoswine a Choice band and let it use Ice-Shard Twice, although I'm still confident that my Brave Mamoswine cursing would be able to live long enough to get the first avalance, and then finish with Ice-Shard anyway. But I'd need to see this in action myself before I'd know. Heck, if I balanced my defense and hp, I'm almost sure it would live, but this is just pure speculation until I aquire the technology to prove it to myself.

Wait, we are refering to the Yache-berry, right? That's Yachechomp? How weird to name a creature only after that one distinction.... A friend got all confident about that berry once.... the reason Mamoswine's still on my team (despite Bronzong destroying it) is because it put that Garchomp down... but that was a while ago..

 

[Deleted member]

I know a good solution to chomp.

Just hit it. It never has a bulky spread, it's never running an unpredictable set, it has no instant recovery move, and most attacks 2HKO it.

People routinely get mad at me for not hitting their Garchomps with ice. Get over yourselves. Stop bitching.

 

[Pink Reaper]

That doesn't work if Chomp is brought in after something dies though. Also there's Sand Veil to complicate things >.<

Yes Umbreon, I understand you love Chomp but understand that "Just hitting it" doesn't really work as a solution, which is why people still hate Scizor.

 

[Deleted member]

yachechomp=over-rated
scarfchomp is where its at

this.

so chomp comes in on the revenge turn. so what. hit it.

people hate scizor because it does chomp's job better. SD sweeper w/ an obscure weakness and leaves little room to hit it back. the only reason people hate scizor is because they can't use chomp to beat his *** (which he does).

 

[Niiro]

also, since there are not priority fire moves, it makes scizor's bullet punch more gay.

 

[Pink Reaper]

How is fire, the second most common attacking type in the game, obscure? Scizor is actually far easier to deal with than Garchomp, a pokemon that in his time out sped every other single dragon in OU, essentially eliminating one of his weaknesses and having an ability that made ice beam miss 1 out of 5 times. The only reason I wouldn't mind seeing garchomp unbanned now is because of the Lati twins making it into OU, something that can actually out speed it and threaten a KO.

 

[Niiro]

fire is basically the 2cd most common attacking type because of scizor. lati@s twin are annoying the **** out of me. its like a ****ing base 110 speed cressie. balls.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Fire has always been one of the 3 most commonly used attacking types in the game because Steel has always been a dominate defensive typing. Scizor did nothing to change this.

 

[Niiro]

it has increased the use of ****ing heatran, which is basically the only pokemon that can counter scizor, and even it fears a predicted superpower.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Btw, if a lvl 100 Garchomp with a max attack power of 394 used Sword Dance and then used Outrage on my Brave Mamoswine after it cursed once, factoring in a max defense of 259 since it's only a Brave Mamoswine, the most Garchomp would do is 310, assuming luck is on it's side. Then, the Brave Mamoswine's cursed 394 attack power Avalance would return the favor unto the Garchomp, who's unboosted max defense of 200 (I rounded up, since most Garchomps have 0 defense evs, but max attack and speed for sweeping) wouldn't save him from the staggering force of 1079 damage from the Avalance. I gave it Nevermelt Ice instead of Life-Orb, so it could live through the devestation, but even with the Yache berry given to Garchomp, that's how much it would do, after the one turn. Then, Ice-Shard would do an unblocked 728 damage, which would be enough to kill Garchom, with/without Avalances help. I'll make this look neater.

Turn 1:Garchomp uses Swords Dance.
Mamoswine uses Curse.

Turn 2:Garchomp uses Outrage, does 310 Damage.
Mamoswine uses Avalance, doing 1079 death.

Turn3:Mamoswin uses Ice-Shard, doing 728 Damage.
Garchomp suffers from Hypothermia. Good game.

Btw, this all figures an Adamant Garchomp with perfect ivs, max attack and speed evs, it's berry, and 4 hp evs, against my Brave Mamoswine, with it's max attack evs, 4 hp evs, Nevermelt ice, and the same perfect ivs. I forgot, it wasn't max hp, it was max defense. I doubt either side does, but lets face it, Garchomp gets ***** by Mamoswine. Unless it had absolutely 0 speed evs and poored them straight into it's defense, Garchomp wouldn't be able to live against my Mamoswine. It's only chance would be to go straight into sweeping with outrage, without the double damage, and even if it got the drop on my Mamoswine with a straight up Outrage, it would only hope to do around 230 damage against my behemoth Mamoswine. The only Chomp that might live would be a Choice Band-Chomp, but there's still the threat of a 1-hit kill from my Behemoth Mamoswine and it's Ragnarok Ice-Shard. Face it. See those two tusks Mamoswine has? It's going to butt-**** Garchomp with them.

I know we're past Garchomp and looking at Scizor, but I'm just saying about the challenge of my Mamoswine not destroying Garchomp, it does. It most definitely does. As for Scizor, both it and my Infernape will use Sword Dance the first turn. Scizzor's only option of killing Infernape would be Quick Attack, and even with the Technitian Boost, I highly doubt it will kill my Infernape, let alone live after the 4x stab Flare Blitz. I might need to go do the math on that too though... I bet even a Fire-Punch would do the job.

And as for common attacking types go, I thought Normal was most common, followed by Water, and then by Fire....

 

[Deleted member]

are you seriously going to state that fire weakness is more of a liability than an ice weakness?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Most people are typically scareder of Ice types now, because of how common Ground, Dragon, Flying and Grass Types (atleast all together) are. Most every team has atleast 1 pokemon with Ice-Beam, or it's dead. Fire types don't need to kill Grass, since Ice does the job, Ice types that firetypes kill are beaten by Fighting and Steel, Bugs are beaten by Flying and Rock (which comes with most every ground type), and Steel Types are weak against EarthQuake, let alone all the other Ground moves. Does Fire even serve a true purpose anymore? Infernape is awesome, but still...

 

[Zook]

Btw, if a lvl 100 Garchomp with a max attack power of 394 used Sword Dance and then used Outrage on my Brave Mamoswine after it cursed once, factoring in a max defense of 259 since it's only a Brave Mamoswine, the most Garchomp would do is 310, assuming luck is on it's side. Then, the Brave Mamoswine's cursed 394 attack power Avalance would return the favor unto the Garchomp, who's unboosted max defense of 200 (I rounded up, since most Garchomps have 0 defense evs, but max attack and speed for sweeping) wouldn't save him from the staggering force of 1079 damage from the Avalance. I gave it Nevermelt Ice instead of Life-Orb, so it could live through the devestation, but even with the Yache berry given to Garchomp, that's how much it would do, after the one turn. Then, Ice-Shard would do an unblocked 728 damage, which would be enough to kill Garchom, with/without Avalances help. I'll make this look neater.

Turn 1:Garchomp uses Swords Dance.
Mamoswine uses Curse.

Turn 2:Garchomp uses Outrage, does 310 Damage.
Mamoswine uses Avalance, doing 1079 death.

Turn3:Mamoswin uses Ice-Shard, doing 728 Damage.
Garchomp suffers from Hypothermia. Good game.

Btw, this all figures an Adamant Garchomp with perfect ivs, max attack and speed evs, it's berry, and 4 hp evs, against my Brave Mamoswine, with it's max attack evs, 4 hp evs, Nevermelt ice, and the same perfect ivs. I forgot, it wasn't max hp, it was max defense. I doubt either side does, but lets face it, Garchomp gets ***** by Mamoswine. Unless it had absolutely 0 speed evs and poored them straight into it's defense, Garchomp wouldn't be able to live against my Mamoswine. It's only chance would be to go straight into sweeping with outrage, without the double damage, and even if it got the drop on my Mamoswine with a straight up Outrage, it would only hope to do around 230 damage against my behemoth Mamoswine. Face it. See those two tusks Mamoswine has? It's going to butt-**** Garchomp with them.

I know we're past Garchomp and looking at Scizor, but I'm just saying about the challenge of my Mamoswine not destroying Garchomp, it does. It most definitely does. As for Scizor, both it and my Infernape will use Sword Dance the first turn. Scizzor's only option of killing Infernape would be Quick Attack, and even with the Technitian Boost, I highly doubt it will kill my Infernape, let alone live after the 4x stab Flare Blitz. I might need to go do the math on that too though... I bet even a Fire-Punch would do the job.

And as for common attacking types go, I thought Normal was most common, followed by Water, and then by Fire....

So you're saying every team should have a max Def/Atk Mamoswine.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I am stating that fire type weakness is more of a liability than an Ice weakness.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I never said that. Infact, most teams are prepared for this anyway. Special Attacks that are Icey will do even more damage than my Mamoswine would. You just have to make sure that the counter is something that is present and waiting for Garchomp. Mamoswine is definitely a counter, but Walrein, for example, would be just one of many who's super Ice attacks would do enough damage to possibly instant kill Garchomp. I might check the math on Porygon-Z being able to kill it. Most anything with Ice-Shard, or that can move faster than it does with a strong enough ice move can take it down with no problem. The only reason I recommend my Mamoswine is because it's a personal favorite of mine. I'm a correct and yet biased viewpoint on the matter.

I personally think you're just upset that I've proven a way to not just counter, but effectively **** Garchomp, although this would also **** pretty much every other pokemon with a x4 Ice-Weakness, including the other Dragons, with the acception of MAYBE Dragonite, only because Dragonite is awesome, having a better special and physical defense... or maybe Salamance, with a bulky enough defense, and intimidate to the enemy counter. Then again, Walrein might just be pure conjecture on my part, but with even better defenses and hp than Mamoswine, with a stronger Stab move and access to the same instant kill combination of Curse and Avalance, or just plain Avalance, as well as several other powerful moves.... I can only assume right now. I need to get my actual game back and try these out! WHY DO I THINK BEST WHEN I CAN'T FULLY APPLY IT!?!

 

[c3gill]

I am stating that fire type weakness is more of a liability than an Ice weakness.

I dunno about that- just because fire moves may be slightly more prevelant doesnt mean that being weak to fire is a terrible issue. Ice is a pretty common typing for moves used in OU.....

Im BL on this one. I dont think you can say one weakness is better than another when both are as common as they are.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Well, in the Garchomp vs Scizor debate, Chomps Ice Weakness is less of an issue because he has more natural bulk(at least on the special/HP side) so he actually can use a type weakening berry. Occa Berry would do almost nothing for Scizor unless he heavily invested into his SpDef.

As for which type is worse to be weak to, Im sticking with fire.