NWM! - IMPULSE Circuit! Stream is up! http://www.twitch.tv/meleepacwest

[shadrach kabango]

*****s just too touchy. grimy/kinda rude/sexist is called life. it's you and your girl's fault for not having any snaps

 

[Diakonos]

*****s just too touchy. grimy/kinda rude/sexist is called life. it's you and your girl's fault for not having any snaps

Haha it may be so that "life" is grimy/kinda rude/sexist, but if this is a less than ideal state, why should I accept it apathetically? And, if by not participating in something, I can avoid these adverse conditions, why wouldn't I?

As for myself, I know guys can be kind of rowdy and sexist, and I can take that. But I like my girlfriend and wouldn't want to put her in a situation where she'd feel uncomfortable. Your "deal with it" argument makes sense only to a degree. If you pushed this to its logical extreme, you could justify any behaviour. So the difference is a subjective one, and I'm arguing for a subjective scenario wherein the most people feel comfortable and respected. Doesn't this seem like a reasonable idea?

 

[MasterC]

^^dat knowledge haha it might be a gamer thing, i can say right now that my gf gets along with all my smash homies, that said, i do have the tightest smash homies around xD

 

[shadrach kabango]

Haha it may be so that "life" is grimy/kinda rude/sexist, but if this is a less than ideal state, why should I accept it apathetically? And, if by not participating in something, I can avoid these adverse conditions, why wouldn't I?

i love melee, so why should i accept camping? if it's a less than ideal state, why should i accept it apathetically? why should i accept anyone playing a character (marth) or stage (fountain of dreams) i don't like?

because it's easy to love "perfection." (if something was "perfect" and only "good" than it isn't perfect because perfect includes imperfections.) that's not really what love is. you love the imperfections.

if you don't love melee, then fine, your decision is easy and there shouldn't be any hand-wringing. but if you love both your SO and melee then, from my perspective, you're illogically giving in to the former. again, how is it any different from telling her to stop doing something she loves? if you agree it's not any different, then the next step is wondering whether or not that's the sign of a healthy relationship.

if anything your SO "forcing" (i dunno to what extent she is, but assuredly at least to some extent) you to abnegate from something you love is the antithesis of love!

As for myself, I know guys can be kind of rowdy and sexist, and I can take that. But I like my girlfriend and wouldn't want to put her in a situation where she'd feel uncomfortable.

then just don't take her to tournaments anymore. the only way you would be "putting" her in a situation is if you forced her to do something. am i missing something?

Your "deal with it" argument makes sense only to a degree.

everything only makes sense to a degree, at least until you go beyond duality.

If you pushed this to its logical extreme, you could justify any behaviour. So the difference is a subjective one, and I'm arguing for a subjective scenario wherein the most people feel comfortable and respected. Doesn't this seem like a reasonable idea?

in a vacuum i do justify any behavior

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i rarely take my gf to tournaments.

just leaving them for weekends at a time is usually unfavorable though. unless they find something interesting to do. then it's always fine.

 

[tarheeljks]

if you don't love melee, then fine, your decision is easy and there shouldn't be any hand-wringing. but if you love both your SO and melee then, from my perspective, you're illogically giving in to the former. again, how is it any different from telling her to stop doing something she loves? if you agree it's not any different, then the next step is wondering whether or not that's the sign of a healthy relationship.

b/c it's this black and white

you've made a boatload of assumptions about her behavior, and his. the point about loving imperfections is also somewhat specious, at least as it pertains to suspect conduct. yes we recognize that the community is not perfect and embrace it in spite of shortcomings. that's different than loving the imperfections.

anyway, regarding black and white i think you've blown this out of proportion, though i do think he was also a little overly sensitive wrt the fast fingers comment. inappropriate, but not the end of the world. the gaming community is more explicit and raunchy than most, so you've got to be willing and able to handle it to assimilate even the least bit. however, that does not mean that someone is necessarily in the wrong to express discomfort. just as our niche has its own norms and customs, we should recognize that others have theirs. compromise is desirable/necessary, and while one may assume his gf tries to pull him away from melee one could just as easily argue that her presence indicates a willingness to compromise (ofc these aren't mutually exclusive). if that's the case, sounds pretty healthy to me


edit2: a logical question is "why should we have to compromise for outsiders"? we don't 'have' to do that, but this community is extremely diverse and as such it's unlikely that an outsider forms opinions about our behavior that are not shared by some fraction of our own members. not trying to be the fun police here, but i can think of times where i've been embarrassed by our behavior (my own included). point being that if we knowingly alienate others, we risk alienating our own as well

 

[Diakonos]

i love melee, so why should i accept camping? if it's a less than ideal state, why should i accept it apathetically? why should i accept anyone playing a character (marth) or stage (fountain of dreams) i don't like?

because it's easy to love "perfection." (if something was "perfect" and only "good" than it isn't perfect because perfect includes imperfections.) that's not really what love is. you love the imperfections.

if you don't love melee, then fine, your decision is easy and there shouldn't be any hand-wringing. but if you love both your SO and melee then, from my perspective, you're illogically giving in to the former. again, how is it any different from telling her to stop doing something she loves? if you agree it's not any different, then the next step is wondering whether or not that's the sign of a healthy relationship.

if anything your SO "forcing" (i dunno to what extent she is, but assuredly at least to some extent) you to abnegate from something you love is the antithesis of love!



then just don't take her to tournaments anymore. the only way you would be "putting" her in a situation is if you forced her to do something. am i missing something?



everything only makes sense to a degree, at least until you go beyond duality.



in a vacuum i do justify any behavior

First, I would say that splitting up a statement like that can take away from the point made by the argument as a whole. An argument is not simply the sum of its parts, but also how they work together.

Your melee example with Marth and FoD is, to me, unconvincing. Those unlikeable parts of the game are exactly that-- part of the game. You cannot remake the game. Certain attitudes in our community, however, can be changed if we decide it's important enough. I think you're comparing two things that are different.

I do like melee (I wouldn't say I love it), and I do love her. As the fellow above me mentioned, the two need not be mutually exclusive. She has never given me an ultimatum, which is what you're assuming. I, willingly, choose not to participate in something that she's not going to enjoy. Yes, I could leave her at home for the weekend while I go off and play videogames, but this isn't something I'm really interested in doing in married life. I would much prefer if as a community we fostered a clean and comfortable environment for more people. That's not an impossibility, I think.

As for your example about how it'd work the other way round, I'd say it's pretty simple. If something she does makes me uncomfortable, I simply let her know. And the vast majority of the time, she opts to forgo it. Why? Cuz she'd rather prioritize my feelings than her enjoyment in certain things. It's the same the other way round. Does that sound like an unhealthy relationship? I don't think so.

I'm glad you agree that your logic, pushed to its extreme, justifies anything. I suppose what I'm asking is why we should aim for your standard ("let's just whatever the filthiness, the sexism, etc.") and not my standard (let's make an effort to be clean/ non-creepy towards females).

Tarheeljks, I appreciate your input and think you make a lot of sense.

 

[shadrach kabango]

b/c it's this black and white

i specifically said "from my perspective."

you've made a boatload of assumptions about her behavior, and his.

did i?

the point about loving imperfections is also somewhat specious, at least as it pertains to suspect conduct. yes we recognize that the community is not perfect and embrace it in spite of shortcomings. that's different than loving the imperfections.

not really

anyway, regarding black and white i think you've blown this out of proportion

so far i think your entire post is out of proportion. as far as i'm concerned i'm conversing with an acquaintance. if anything has been blown out of proportion it was done so by your own mind, not mine.

however, that does not mean that someone is necessarily in the wrong to express discomfort.

agreed, and i resent the perceived implication of that being my argument.

First, I would say that splitting up a statement like that can take away from the point made by the argument as a whole.

i know it

An argument is not simply the sum of its parts, but also how they work together.

first of all from my perspective this isn't an argument but merely a difference in perspective.

second of all in order to communicate well with people you must speak the same language. if i am saying something in one language and i don't feel the person who is responding to me is speaking the same language, i am to attempt to bridge the gap instead of merely replying in the languages heretofore used

Your melee example with Marth and FoD is, to me, unconvincing.

okie-dokie

Those unlikeable parts of the game are exactly that-- part of the game. You cannot remake the game.

yeah, that's the point

Certain attitudes in our community, however, can be changed if we decide it's important enough. I think you're comparing two things that are different.

not only do i not agree with this -- no, YOU cannot change attitudes in the community, which is not the same as saying that attitudes cannot be changed -- i don't even know what this has to do with what i was saying. i'm beginning to think my message is continuing to be lost in translation, and if your follow-up post confirms this then obv we're beating a dead horse and i'll stfu

which is what you're assuming.

here's evidence of the above, for posterity's sake

I would much prefer if as a community we fostered a clean and comfortable environment for more people. That's not an impossibility, I think.

good luck!

I'm glad you agree that your logic, pushed to its extreme, justifies anything.

now this is simply disingenuous (and is also exhibit b of my lost in translation point).

"my" logic? as if i am the owner of logic? no, logic is merely a tool. any logic, pushed to its extreme, justifies anything. that was the point. don't be dense.

 

[Rusty Shacklefurd]

I can't believe that nobody's locked this thread.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I hope that Manuel has learned at this point that replying is futile.

Manuel, I (and probably most others) think your decision is fine/justified, and yes, it would be nice if gamers were less gross and creepy in general. I think Seattle's Melee scene is pretty good about that sort of thing, so the obvious solution is just to come to our tournaments more. LOL

Even though I know that's impossible :<

 

[Diakonos]

Hahahaha I gotcha, shadrach. Btw your writing/discussion style reminds me of one vyze owns. That wouldn't happen to be you, would it?

@Toph: I gotcha. Maybe if I return to UBC for a doctorate.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Yeah that's him haha.

 

[MasterC]

Even though I know that's impossible :<

Nothings impossible Toph

Change the attitude of the community!! And come to more of our tourneys!! XD

Edit: wait, does Manuel not live in BC anymore?

 

[omgwtfToph]

I said it's impossible because Manuel is moving to East Canada soon (April 30 iirc). Not cuz I'm a pessimist or anything lol.

 

[Tope]

Can I come play melee with you guys? I might be based outta seattle lmao, what a lovely town it was.

except for the extremely high suicide rate

 

[Diakonos]

I hear Seattle can be pretty depressing. I wouldn't mind staying there short-term, though, for studying etc.

Plus, it has the homies

 

[omgwtfToph]

Can I come play melee with you guys? I might be based outta seattle lmao, what a lovely town it was.

except for the extremely high suicide rate

yaaaay

yes plz

let's go to the space needle LOL

edit: btw Seattle isn't depressing at all unless you're the kind of person who is affected by weather (which I was when I first moved here from Hawaii). If gray skies don't bother you then it's a great city lol.

 

[Rusty Shacklefurd]

It's like Raincouver but with more traffic.

 

[MasterC]

lmao at manuel thinking ppl here just jump off bridges daily ROFL

it's supposed to be like, the worst place for single ppl and that coupled with "depressing" weather --> suicides...? idk, i personally like the ppl/weather HELLA

tope, come kick it again mannnnnn

 

[omgwtfToph]

Seattle is the worst place for singles? Why's that, cuz all the Asian girls here are super cliquish and don't speak English? LOL

 

[MattDotZeb]

looool In checking what there is to do in Seattle before my trip I read that the girls are pretty easy.

#contradictions

 

[MasterC]

i think the survey data was more for like 30+ year olds LOL so just don't get old and it won't suck

unless you're one of those guys who has that seasonal disorder o_O but then, you're prob not cool enough to hang out with anyways haha