**** I wish they had 5$ tournies when I first started playing.
Anytime someone asks me to play I do, except when I'm about to do something else lol.
Anytime someone asks me to play I do, except when I'm about to do something else lol.
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Atlantic North [Nov 8, 2014] SypherPhoenix's Boosted Biweeklies! - Northern VA (Fairfax, VA, USA)
- Thread starter SypherPhoenix
- Start date
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
i enter tournaments knowing that i will only play 2-4 sets. nbd. i play to reduce the jitters.
Seeing as I've played for almost 6 years and spent the first two of those going to tournaments literally every week just to get where I am, I would say that it is unfair to say "if you just put yourself in worse players shoes".
Local tournaments have already been so simplified to cater to these people who were holding back the community by not entering or travelling to events. Now these same people want to go to events, take up LIMITED space and setups, and contribute absolutely nothing. This process as a whole is detrimental to the growth of any competitive community.
That however is a whole different issue, the issue of people acting like a double elimination bracket "isn't good enough" really need to get their heads on straight. I don't know when this area decided the standard for tournaments was a basement and a $5 entry fee, but that is a large part of why our region is so bad and has stayed so bad for so long. There is no motivation to improve, and all you are trying to do by forcing more matches into the tournament as a whole is remove even more motivation to improve by implementing a preschool mentality of "it's okay you didn't win, nobody is a loser here, EVERYBODY MOVES ON!!!"
Grow the **** up. You are in a competitive gaming community. SERIOUSLY. The top players already have to deal with the community being horribly run out of basements, taking literally the ENTIRE day and well into the night, then the overall reward being less due to the lower entry fee and the amount of people who came, got in the way, and didn't enter. Tournaments around here have been completely molded to form to the casual player (which is why we all suck) and so now the next step is to start complaining a double elimination bracket isn't good enough?
They are called money matches, and they've been how you get someone better than you to take the match seriously since 2001.
That being said top players would be more inclined to play more people if the tournaments didnt last all day with only 3 setups and end at midnight. The TO's make no effort to end **** earlier and the community makes no effort to bring more setups or find a better venue to fit more, because paying $5 for a venue fee for a nice venue for a tournament is just so unreasonable. On top of that to attempt to implement any system that could actually add more matches just makes things take way longer than they already do. We had 16 setups and **** still didnt end until like 11 something PM.
It might be sort of cold but it is annoying how much the tournament scene has changed already in this area, how little the same people who are complaining realize it's benefitting them, and how negatively it impacts anyone in the area who actually wants to be good be good at this game and has the drive to do it.
tl;dr: md/va tournaments are bad and already geared towards casual/less skilled players, we don't need to cater more.
SypherPhoenix
Smash Lord
Sorry that we're improving the community.
Winnar
Smash Lord
Wait so you guys didn't do regular swiss, but a hybridized swiss? Please explain :D
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Let's not and say we did haha
the biweeklies are good, they just shouldnt be our only tournies around here. i wish someone would run some **** like once a month so people could all try and focus on and try and get some OOS people. thats another issue with why we are so bad
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2008
- Messages
- 7,187
Swiss is seriously the perfect solution
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
ive been planning on hosting something.
Winnar
Smash Lord
Mahone
Smash Champion
If you don't like how the community is behaving you should just leave it instead of telling everyone else to change with your only argument being based off of how things used to be.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Plank, I think the thing you are missing is that it isn't 2004 anymore. In 2004 if you dedicated yourself for a few months, you'd become a recognized player. In 2006, it'd probably take you a year. Now? It probably take 3 solid years minimum to get top 5 at a national. The skill gaps in this community have gotten very, very, very large. A person could literally play for every day for 2 years straight and still not be where Chu/Chillin/Tope/etc are. This game has reached levels that we never could have expected, so we need to modify our format accordingly. Other regions are having the same problems, so know that this isn't an isolated issue; people have been experimenting with amateur brackets/swiss for a while now.
I know what you mean when you say that you don't want us to cater for newer players because they never catered to you when you were new. I have entered tournaments for years without complaint just like you. But that doesn't mean that I should subject new players to the same system if I can come up with a viable alternative. Just because double elim was done in the past doesn't make it right; it would not be a major disaster if we were wiser than our predecessors. In fact we should be, and so we should take it as our responsibility to improve upon the system that they gave us.
Furthermore, realize that I never said I would want to cater to newer players at the detriment of older players. That would be ludicrous and unfair. But what I want is to give newer players more opportunities to improve. And more indicators of their improvement. Double elim doesn't give you anything accurate in terms of results outside of the top 3. So if you placed 3rd one tournament double elim, and then 1st the next, as a top player you know you are getting better. However, if you got 25th because you lost to Chu in winners and drunk Cyrain in losers in one tournament but 17th by losing to Bones0 and Mahone in another, its tough for you to gauge if you did any better or worse despite your higher placing. In an alternate system (lets say swiss), where players gradually play people closer and closer to their level, everybody benefits. Look at Chillin's bracket next time we do double elim. He faces 2 really good people and if he beats them he wins. One of the (many) good things about my system, despite its flaws, was that Chillin literally had to beat like 7 amazing players to win the tournament. That'll get Chillin better. This same concept works for lower level players who face ~7 players of their same skill level. They get better as a result, and are forced to confront many high pressure situations in a row, similar to a national.
Winston, when I said my system was good in spirit, I meant it followed most of the guidelines I'd want for a successful regional tournament. Where it faltered was systematic; I hadn't thought about how results might get skewed because of one critical loss. Those guidelines are as such:
Crimson's 10 Commandments for Regional Tournaments
1. The vast majority of matches played at a tournament should be tournament matches. Friendlies are to be played during down time, and between sets. The more a system can maximize the number of tournament matches each player plays without increasing the overall time it takes to complete the tournament, the better.
2. There must be accurate placings of all players, not just the top players. This helps create motivation for all players, and clear goals for players between tournaments.
3. Players should get the opportunity to play people significantly better than them; people shouldn't be robbed of the opportunity to make an upset just because of seeding.
4. Players should get the opportunity to play many people of the same skill level as them.
5. A 1 day tournament should take 4.5-5 hours (for singles) regardless of number of entrants. This means that the format used can be modified depending on number of entrants. If there are only 8 people, then do a round robin and get perfect results. If there are 32, try swiss. Either way, tournaments shouldn't last 30 minutes just because there are very few entrants. Get as many tournament rounds as possible within that 4.5-5 hr timeframe.
6. Seeding should be done collectively, as best possible. No one person should do all seeding. If it is viable to use previous tournament results to seed, do so.
7. There should be a GFs. The 1st and 2nd placers should always play.
8. There should be direct consequences for losing matches. Matches shouldn't artificially be created just for the sake of more matches. Every match should directly affect someone's results.
9. Whatever the system, the goal has to be to train people to perform at national tournaments.
10. The tournament host should treat all players with respect, and players should do the same. This is the most important commandment. Without this, there isn't a good environment and no one will ever want to come again. Friendliness matters.
Now think about how many of these commandments double elim cannot accomplish. Thats why its a flawed system. Thats why we should look for alternatives.
My system failed at #2 but it did a lot of other things right. Think about it: a 32 man double elim has 62-63 sets played total (depending on if GFs is reset). My system has 184-188 sets played total (depending on if each GFs for the brackets are reset) for 32 entrants. And it finished in less than 5 hours (we started at 6:30 and ended at 11:20 iirc), the same time it takes to finish a double elim tournament of the same size. 3 times the number of total sets done in the same amount of time? Thats HUGE. Other systems exist with those types of benefits that accomplish commandment #2. It should be our goal as a community to look for those formats rather than sticking with double elim just because we are used to it.
I know what you mean when you say that you don't want us to cater for newer players because they never catered to you when you were new. I have entered tournaments for years without complaint just like you. But that doesn't mean that I should subject new players to the same system if I can come up with a viable alternative. Just because double elim was done in the past doesn't make it right; it would not be a major disaster if we were wiser than our predecessors. In fact we should be, and so we should take it as our responsibility to improve upon the system that they gave us.
Furthermore, realize that I never said I would want to cater to newer players at the detriment of older players. That would be ludicrous and unfair. But what I want is to give newer players more opportunities to improve. And more indicators of their improvement. Double elim doesn't give you anything accurate in terms of results outside of the top 3. So if you placed 3rd one tournament double elim, and then 1st the next, as a top player you know you are getting better. However, if you got 25th because you lost to Chu in winners and drunk Cyrain in losers in one tournament but 17th by losing to Bones0 and Mahone in another, its tough for you to gauge if you did any better or worse despite your higher placing. In an alternate system (lets say swiss), where players gradually play people closer and closer to their level, everybody benefits. Look at Chillin's bracket next time we do double elim. He faces 2 really good people and if he beats them he wins. One of the (many) good things about my system, despite its flaws, was that Chillin literally had to beat like 7 amazing players to win the tournament. That'll get Chillin better. This same concept works for lower level players who face ~7 players of their same skill level. They get better as a result, and are forced to confront many high pressure situations in a row, similar to a national.
Winston, when I said my system was good in spirit, I meant it followed most of the guidelines I'd want for a successful regional tournament. Where it faltered was systematic; I hadn't thought about how results might get skewed because of one critical loss. Those guidelines are as such:
Crimson's 10 Commandments for Regional Tournaments
1. The vast majority of matches played at a tournament should be tournament matches. Friendlies are to be played during down time, and between sets. The more a system can maximize the number of tournament matches each player plays without increasing the overall time it takes to complete the tournament, the better.
2. There must be accurate placings of all players, not just the top players. This helps create motivation for all players, and clear goals for players between tournaments.
3. Players should get the opportunity to play people significantly better than them; people shouldn't be robbed of the opportunity to make an upset just because of seeding.
4. Players should get the opportunity to play many people of the same skill level as them.
5. A 1 day tournament should take 4.5-5 hours (for singles) regardless of number of entrants. This means that the format used can be modified depending on number of entrants. If there are only 8 people, then do a round robin and get perfect results. If there are 32, try swiss. Either way, tournaments shouldn't last 30 minutes just because there are very few entrants. Get as many tournament rounds as possible within that 4.5-5 hr timeframe.
6. Seeding should be done collectively, as best possible. No one person should do all seeding. If it is viable to use previous tournament results to seed, do so.
7. There should be a GFs. The 1st and 2nd placers should always play.
8. There should be direct consequences for losing matches. Matches shouldn't artificially be created just for the sake of more matches. Every match should directly affect someone's results.
9. Whatever the system, the goal has to be to train people to perform at national tournaments.
10. The tournament host should treat all players with respect, and players should do the same. This is the most important commandment. Without this, there isn't a good environment and no one will ever want to come again. Friendliness matters.
Now think about how many of these commandments double elim cannot accomplish. Thats why its a flawed system. Thats why we should look for alternatives.
My system failed at #2 but it did a lot of other things right. Think about it: a 32 man double elim has 62-63 sets played total (depending on if GFs is reset). My system has 184-188 sets played total (depending on if each GFs for the brackets are reset) for 32 entrants. And it finished in less than 5 hours (we started at 6:30 and ended at 11:20 iirc), the same time it takes to finish a double elim tournament of the same size. 3 times the number of total sets done in the same amount of time? Thats HUGE. Other systems exist with those types of benefits that accomplish commandment #2. It should be our goal as a community to look for those formats rather than sticking with double elim just because we are used to it.
Beat!
Smash Master
It feels a bit weird posting in a bi-weeklies thread... but why don't you just run regular swiss and a regular double elim after that?
Yo, all other issues aside, tournament was a lot of fun.
Swiss is literally my favorite format and I wish more tournies would run like that, it's just really hard to pull off without practice.
Now that we have some practice maybe we can do something similiar next time.
And yea Cyrain probably is the best player in the region. Lets see how he does at genesis when he actually gives a ****.
Swiss is literally my favorite format and I wish more tournies would run like that, it's just really hard to pull off without practice.
Now that we have some practice maybe we can do something similiar next time.
And yea Cyrain probably is the best player in the region. Lets see how he does at genesis when he actually gives a ****.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Oh and before I forget, shoutouts to JCz and his crew for bringing all their setups, Sypher for helping me run the tournament and dealing with registration, Tope for helping with everything, and Epsilon for recording. Thx everyone that came out and everyone who brought setups. You guys are awesome. <3
Can't wait for this weekend to cheer the hometown boys on for Genesis. Make sure to txt us how you're doing and to get on the stream as much as possible.
Can't wait for this weekend to cheer the hometown boys on for Genesis. Make sure to txt us how you're doing and to get on the stream as much as possible.
im too lazy to quote mahones post because i disagree with every single part of it
crimson i understand what your saying and in no way is that how im saying things SHOULD be, but i just dont think its logical to change the overall format at this point in time.
my main grief is this region has $5 tournies for 20 people that last 10 hours due to bad TOing. i think wed improve more fixing that than changing the tournament bracket
crimson i understand what your saying and in no way is that how im saying things SHOULD be, but i just dont think its logical to change the overall format at this point in time.
my main grief is this region has $5 tournies for 20 people that last 10 hours due to bad TOing. i think wed improve more fixing that than changing the tournament bracket
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
I think one can help change the other though. I'm sure people would be willing to pay $10 for a professionally run swiss tournament. I don't know if they'd do the same for double elim.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
True, but there are ways to add matches without adding time. As long as there are the same number of rounds, the total runtime of the tournament is the same. The number of matches per round doesn't matter, given there are enough setups (note: this doesn't usually matter because there is typically at least one set that goes by super quick. Chillin's sets were done in like 4 mins lol).
chillindude829
Smash Master
Yea cyrains prolly better than me in all honesty, I wish there was a better gauge than how we place at major tournies tho, since apparently that's the only time cyrain tries
BigWenz
Smash Ace
You cant blame everything on the TOs. Since i havent been to a tourny all summer i cant speak for wats been happening since summer started, however during like the school year, a main reason tournies didn start on time was because people didn show up on time. Also it may be a TOs responsibility to make sure people arent playing friendlies when they're tourny matches to be played, but that doesnt mean that each individual player cannot help with this process.
as for the subject of double elim and worse/casual players not wanting to pay 5 bucks to get 0-2 or loss-win-loss, honestly if its really a big issue either dont enter or get better. Its only 5 dollars. Rarely, do I enter a tourny where i do better than loss-win-loss (mostly cause i always end up facing a member of h2yl first round which is kinda ghey but w/e) but i dont think its that big of a deal. I enter cause i just want the experience. I really don't see how paying 5 dollars in a double elim tourny is that awful and according to the arguments against double elim i would benefit more from the switch to a swiss system.
mers
Smash Ace
Wow Plank. I'm really glad it's not you that does the hosting around here, because your mindset about the newer players is godawful. Without the bad players contributing to the atmosphere and the pot, how the **** do you expect anything to happen?
The community only improves when everyone improves, not when the best players get slightly better.
The community only improves when everyone improves, not when the best players get slightly better.
Winston
Smash Master
w/e, I don't care about tournament structure anymore, I just wish someone would teach me how to play melee
DuckPimp
Smash Ace
shut up winston. you should teach me how to play melee.
I don't think you should feel bad about losing to Milkman. He did make 3rd round of pools at pound.
If you wanna learn, drive to richmond and we'll teach you
SypherPhoenix
Smash Lord
I don't think there's much you can disagree with. Instead of brushing it off how about you try to counter it? Stop trying to pass off your opinion as valid when you can't even defend it.
Plank, I don't want to transform our current system into this ****ty 'old community' you keep talking about. You make it sound stupid. You can come to my tournaments and pay twice as much if you want, I'll gladly put it in the pot.
That said, there's going to be a tournament this Saturday with Genesis streams up. No entry fee.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
That sounds pretty fun haha
I don't know if I have plans yet, so we'll see
I don't know if I have plans yet, so we'll see
Sypher, you are asking me to respond to a post that started out by saying I didn't address a point, then within the same post quoted exactly how I addressed the point. I don't want to continue an argument with someone who doesn't even read what I write. I am more than capable to stand by everything I say, it just isn't necessary to continue with especially when I can have a similar conversation but intelligently with Crimson.
Basing your point around "people should get more matches overall instead of just being in for two matches and out" is understandable, but basing your point around "Why would someone pay 5 dollars when they dont have to for a double elimination bracket?" is something that anyone with any sort of motivation to improve already knows the answer to.
Overall I don't care, and people can just continue to be bad at the expense of a mcdonalds value meal
Basing your point around "people should get more matches overall instead of just being in for two matches and out" is understandable, but basing your point around "Why would someone pay 5 dollars when they dont have to for a double elimination bracket?" is something that anyone with any sort of motivation to improve already knows the answer to.
Overall I don't care, and people can just continue to be bad at the expense of a mcdonalds value meal
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
^^ see theres your problem you might have plans if you wanna get better there is no other plans besides melee ask thumbs lmfao ..
mers
Smash Ace
You're the ****ing best. Teach me how to not lose to Fox?
Winston
Smash Master
I can try... I love trying to teach people, though idk if I'm any good at it. Just ask me questions and stuff while playingshut up winston. you should teach me how to play melee.
I also made 3rd round pools at pound... >__>I don't think you should feel bad about losing to Milkman. He did make 3rd round of pools at pound.
If you wanna learn, drive to richmond and we'll teach you
and I can't drive, or I'd take you up on that. Someday though...
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
I'm not the one complaining about stuff though ... <_<
Yea, but you complain that you're bad all the time soooooooooo there
SypherPhoenix
Smash Lord
plank i'm not sure if you completely understand what people are saying in this topic
also if you don't care then don't bring up the issue, rofl. so far it's you who's been the the most vocal and long-winded.
also if you don't care then don't bring up the issue, rofl. so far it's you who's been the the most vocal and long-winded.
I'd do this if I knew when the balls you guys got together.If you wanna learn, drive to richmond and we'll teach you
idk fox da bess but i halp mmk
Mahone
Smash Champion
Lol, you're right dude, you're too smart for me.
I don't think you read my post, since i pointed out that saying "this is how it used to be" and "bad players should step their **** up!" aren't actually logical arguments...
so really, what i meant is that you didn't address my point in an intelligent way....
I'm so happy that you are capable of standing by everything you said. I concede this argument since I know whatever is brewing in your head is irrefutable. In my experience, people who cuss people out and put random words in CAPS and then claim they are too intelligent to respond to objections are usually right...
Hey, guess what, some people might have a hard time staying motivated when they lose 0-2 every tournament and would rather get better through friendlies before wasting more money... I know this is unheard of for you since you talk like 5 dollars is nothing to you, but sadly that isn't the case for everyone.
Eh... why am I wasting my time, based on the thread so far it looks like everyone realizes that you are just full of **** and your arguments make no sense.
Mahone
Smash Champion
pretty good, what about you man
MinQ
Smash Apprentice
SleepyK! You should check out the awesome shirt I made!