Not doing anything about mii

[Auramaniji]

Whoops, I screwed up the edit.
What I meant to say was would anyone like a customs meta at this point?
It's better to merge mii with all his specials into the non-customs meta than to let him rot in customs.

 

[MajorMajora]

"Customs: Off": A toggled option in the CSS is chosen so that custom sets for all non mii characters may not be selected. It allows all mii sets but deactivates any custom equipment on them.

"No customs/customs-off meta/ruleset": A ruleset and the associated meta-game in which custom moves, the definition of which may or may not include mii fighter moves 2-3 on all their specials, are disqualified. Often, when practicing this moveset, the customs option is set to off, but they are not one and the same. The rules associated with "Customs: Off" have a lot of overlap with a customs off ruleset, in some versions of the ruleset they may entirely overlap, but it is impossible to say they are the same thing. One is a ruleset outside the game and the other is one inside the game. In this way they are definitively different.

My arguments are based around the idea that a ruleset that entirely overlaps with the rules established by "Customs: Off" would have logical inconsistencies.

Side note: I got a new avatar because I really like Gakuto from prison school, but looking at it I feel like this avatar makes me look like more of an *** hole. Can I get any feedback on this?

Serious question, after Evo would anyone want a customs ruleset in it's entirety? The right thing to do is merge mii into the non-customs meta with all his specials.[/quote]
Well, they say imitation is the highest form of flattery...
But I'm guessing you were trying to quote me?

Well, I personally think that Customs are the way to go. They aren't game breaking, and any complaints people have are them not being used to them or fear-mongering.

Well, I get that you are in favor of no customs except miis. My question is... why?
I can think of the following reasons:

1. Mii fighter customs are unlocked from the start, so they are logistically easier to work with. So is Palutena. Not to mention this is a logistical problem that has not only been solved but is not as big as the loss in content that it results in.
2. While customs are off, mii fighters are allowed. What is allowed in game has never determined what was allowed in our rules. Temple can be picked with customs off, that doesn't mean we can in our ruleset. Us selectively using this logic is contradictory and really poor logic.
3. Mii fighter moves are not custom moves, and therefore they can use all of them. This is based on arbitrary separations on what is or isn't a custom move. Everyone has moves 1-3 for each special. Mii's are included. The only difference is in-menu accessibility, which has no effect on how competitively viable they are. Custom moves being banned means everyone can only use 1111. If we say mii fighters can use all the moves, then we have to either prove that they have some significant difference. But the only one we have is an arbitrary definition given to us by Sakurai, who we never listen to. Ever. So mii fighter moves 2-3 and "custom moves" are identical in practical use.

In short, either have everyone limited to 1111 or let everyone use customs. Preferably the latter.

 

[FSLink]

Most fighting games do not allow custom characters, yes. But importing a Mii does not take much time whereas create-a-characters in other fighting games do take relatively longer for not much benefit (I feel Gunner, Brawler, and Swordfighter provide very unique movesets to the Smash 4 cast), and if you feel size is an issue...the way the CMP handled it was that the Miis were given their "optimal" sizes, and not allowing any importing of different Mii sizes. This allows other non-Mii users to just adjust to tiny Brawler, medium Brawler, tiny Gunner, and tiny Swordfighter, not many different variations there. An easy solution is to allow certain sizes (say the imported Miis from the CMP), or to only use the default size Mii in-game if you have to create one.

I feel that either Miis should be banned just because the community does not want "create-a-character" characters, or they should be allowed with all their special moves because I feel the game allowing them in "Customs OFF" and their movesets not making much coherent sense sticking to 1111 means that they were designed for having varied movesets.

I really think 1111 is a half assed compromise, either ban them entirely because you don't like created characters, or allow them to be used to their actual potential by the way they were designed.

 

[MajorMajora]

Most fighting games do not allow custom characters, yes. But importing a Mii does not take much time whereas create-a-characters in other fighting games do take relatively longer for not much benefit (I feel Gunner, Brawler, and Swordfighter provide very unique movesets to the Smash 4 cast), and if you feel size is an issue...the way the CMP handled it was that the Miis were given their "optimal" sizes, and not allowing any importing of different Mii sizes. This allows other non-Mii users to just adjust to tiny Brawler, medium Brawler, tiny Gunner, and tiny Swordfighter, not many different variations there. An easy solution is to allow certain sizes (say the imported Miis from the CMP), or to only use the default size Mii in-game if you have to create one.

I feel that either Miis should be banned just because the community does not want "create-a-character" characters, or they should be allowed with all their special moves because I feel the game allowing them in "Customs OFF" and their movesets not making much coherent sense sticking to 1111 means that they were designed for having varied movesets.

I really think 1111 is a half ***** compromise, either ban them entirely because you don't like created characters, or allow them to be used to their actual potential by the way they were designed.

Here's the thing though, they aren't really created characters. They have established stats and frame data, not taking size into account, but that can be easily standardized. The only other things that are customizable are its special moves, which they have as many of as any other character, and appearance, which is pretty irrelevant. So they're pretty much as much of a custom character as samus or mario.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

One look at Brawler on 1111 makes a significant blow to the idea that Miis have 'defaults', Kirby behavior aside. He has no kill moves, no useful recovery, and struggles to form a coherent game plan. Swordfighter 1111 is only moderately better in this regard, and he's so over-specialized in close combat that he infringes on Brawler's gimmick.

I'm pretty sure the Miis were never designed or balanced around the idea of 1111 play, and forcing them into it because "well we can pick Temple too so why are we listening to Sakurai?" is kind of odd. There's a key difference.

Temple was designed from its very outset to be a massive stage with 'caves of life' and varied terrain suitable for crazy casual play. There is nothing we can do to tweak Temple such that these become tolerable for tournaments. Therefore we get rid of Temple, and rightly so.

Miis were most likely* designed to be played with open movelists in mind. When you take this away, the results are bizarre. Brawler becomes this incredibly handicapped character who can rack up damage but cannot secure kills and can't recover. Swordfighter is unable to serve as a 'jack of all trades' that the rest of their movelist suggests they ought to be. Gunner loses out on several 'utility versus kill power' decisions that each player will answer differently.

*: "You don't know that for sure, you're not Sakurai." True, but it strains plausibility that he would add 'build your own character' to the game, then design them around a very rigid set of specials like he would the rest of the cast. Palutena has a coherent gameplan on 1111. Ryu has a coherent gameplan on 1111. Mario and Mega Man likewise. Every character except the Miis is designed around their 1111 set. The Miis don't seem to be.

Bans or 1111-only are an unnecessary limit on these characters, taking fun away from legitimately competitive players. There is no harm in letting them have their fun in our tournament venues.

 

[MajorMajora]

One look at Brawler on 1111 makes a significant blow to the idea that Miis have 'defaults', Kirby behavior aside. He has no kill moves, no useful recovery, and struggles to form a coherent game plan. Swordfighter 1111 is only moderately better in this regard, and he's so over-specialized in close combat that he infringes on Brawler's gimmick.

I'm pretty sure the Miis were never designed or balanced around the idea of 1111 play, and forcing them into it because "well we can pick Temple too so why are we listening to Sakurai?" is kind of odd. There's a key difference.

Temple was designed from its very outset to be a massive stage with 'caves of life' and varied terrain suitable for crazy casual play. There is nothing we can do to tweak Temple such that these become tolerable for tournaments. Therefore we get rid of Temple, and rightly so.

Miis were most likely* designed to be played with open movelists in mind. When you take this away, the results are bizarre. Brawler becomes this incredibly handicapped character who can rack up damage but cannot secure kills and can't recover. Swordfighter is unable to serve as a 'jack of all trades' that the rest of their movelist suggests they ought to be. Gunner loses out on several 'utility versus kill power' decisions that each player will answer differently.

*: "You don't know that for sure, you're not Sakurai." True, but it strains plausibility that he would add 'build your own character' to the game, then design them around a very rigid set of specials like he would the rest of the cast. Palutena has a coherent gameplan on 1111. Ryu has a coherent gameplan on 1111. Mario and Mega Man likewise. Every character except the Miis is designed around their 1111 set. The Miis don't seem to be.

Bans or 1111-only are an unnecessary limit on these characters, taking fun away from legitimately competitive players. There is no harm in letting them have their fun in our tournament venues.

I feel like this is the only valid argument I've seen in favor of customs off except for mii fighters. But really, you can say that they weren't meant to be like that, but at the same time you can say the same thing about Palutena, who is complete ass without customs. Zelda is complete ass regardless. Sometimes characters are complete ass. Honestly I don't think we should ever try to balance the game using our rulesets except for in the most extreme conditions. And I don't think whether or not these 3 characters mostly suck (or are solid in the case of mii brawler) or entirely suck is too much of a worrisome situation.

 

[ZarroTsu]

They have established stats and frame data, not taking size into account, but that can be easily standardized.

Why tho.

 

[MajorMajora]

Why tho.

Please elaborate.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

but at the same time you can say the same thing about Palutena, who is complete *** without customs. Zelda is complete *** regardless.

I say this as a Palutena player: Palutena is not terrible on 1111. Even if she was, 'terrible' wasn't what I was getting at. 1111 Palutena has a coherent game plan. She has a functional recovery move. She has a functional projectile, reflect, and counter. Her throws lead to potential kill mixups. If you sit a player down with 1111 Palutena, they can tell you basically what her game plan is. "Force approaches with Auto Reticle, then use Counter or Reflect against obvious attacks. If opponent is more cautious, use her grab range to force post-throw guessing games. If you get knocked off stage, recover from varying angles using Teleport." This strategy may or may not work out, but it is coherent. You can tell what she's supposed to be doing and what tools are there to try to make it happen.

I say this as a Zelda player: As of 1.1.0, Zelda isn't complete garbage even on 1111. Still pretty bad, but playable. I can describe, from 1.0 onward, a game plan for her as evidenced in intuitive character design. Zelda tries to hog up stage space with her Phantom Slash down-B (and as of 1.1.0 she uses it to edgeguard and push people away, but that wasn't part of the original design I admit). She tries to find unusual positions where her steerable Din's Fire side-B can hit foes but they can't target her very easily. Once opponent is softened up and convinced to approach, they must deal with a very high priority reflector as a close-range protection tool and Lightning Kicks as very fast-to-activate aerial kill options. She recovers with teleport. Sprinkle in grab mixups and other 'force opponent into air, make them guess which powerful aerial you swing at them' for flavor. Also, mix up the angles you recover from with teleport because this is a kill move. A gimmicky kill move that is high risk high reward, but it's nonetheless something people can't sleep on.

I can outline a coherent game plan for 1111 Zelda because she was designed with one.

I can't say the same for the Miis. I couldn't tell you how Brawler 1111 is supposed to operate. He has few meaningful KO options outside of fishing for raw smashes and perhaps very well placed Onslaughts (side B). He has nothing scary off a grab; most of his grabs don't kill until insane percentages and almost all of his aerial normals are built around damage racking. His recovery is garbage; he has little horizontal distance, and his vertical distance is hard to sweetspot safely. Not impossible, just hard. All he gains for this is... a very clunky, unsafe on block projectile? It's one of those moves that seems to have been balanced around intermediate players, as Sakurai once said he aims for in his balance choices.

1111 Swordfighter's plan is basically "get in close and stay in close because I have no quick long range attacks (Shuriken of Light is Neutral B 2 and Slash Launcher is Side B 2), so why am I being played this way? Also I have extremely linear recovery for no obvious reason." The player is left wondering why they're not just playing the close-combat specialist Mii (Brawler) in this case, but the answer there is an artificial limitation of "because 1111 Brawler has no meaningful game plan."

1111 Gunner I will concede holds up somewhat better. I can at least tell you basically what she wants to do in order to win and which tools permit it. Still, 2 out of 3 are just left on the design level going "...huh? What am I supposed to be doing, again?"

 

[Doruge]

While customs are off, mii fighters are allowed. What is allowed in game has never determined what was allowed in our rules. Temple can be picked with customs off, that doesn't mean we can in our ruleset. Us selectively using this logic is contradictory and really poor logic.

We ban temple for a reason. Every time we ban something, it's for a reason. What is the reason for banning the Mii's alternate moves? You have still not provided a legitimate reason for why these moves need to be banned. Instead you insist on making idiotic statements like "we banned temple so that means we can and should ban whatever we want for no goddamn reason"

 

[ZarroTsu]

Please elaborate.

Why do we need to standardize them at all? Why can't a Mii Player just bring their DS in and copy the character over? Will that cause problems? Will they effortlessly scrooge the system with equipment because it's too much staggering work for the TO to check the equips post-game and DQ cheaters?

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Will they effortlessly scrooge the system with equipment because it's too much staggering work for the TO to check the equips post-game and DQ cheaters?

They don't even have to go that far!

If you set Customs Off, Equipment Effects are disabled! The character select screen will wrongly imply it hasn't turned them off, it will show an icon of the character's modified stat spread, but in actuality they function at the default values for their weight, height, and class (Gunner, Swordfighter, Brawler)!

You can easily test this yourself. Load up a Mii with two high Attack boosting items plus something that grants them an item. Start a match with Customs On, notice you do indeed start with the item and do more damage. Take note of those damage values (be careful of sweetspots in Swordfighter's case, he has some).

Now go back to the select screen, turn Customs OFF, and use that same Mii Fighter. No item, and they do normal damage!

Sakurai thought this one though. We can look down on many of his competitive design choices if we want, but this one he handled absolutely correctly. If you set Customs OFF, the Mii keeps their selected moves but gains no equipment benefits. TOs do not have to be afraid of someone sneaking in Equipment!

 

[MajorMajora]

Well, me talking here is all hypothetical, since I really just want all customs legal and think its stupid people want to keep the miis legal but no one else's.

But hey if we have to stick with 1111's (which you really have almost no excuse not to if you hamper every other character), I can still see multiple sizes being a thing, or bringing your own size. I actually am a big fan of bringing in your own custom set, but it apparently takes too much time. Understand that this is in a system where we take the time to enter in custom names. Wtf

 

[Doruge]

Well, me talking here is all hypothetical, since I really just want all customs legal and think its stupid people want to keep the miis legal but no one else's.

Explain why it's "stupid" to go by what the game says instead of making up arbitrary rules. Also, answer my question please.

We ban temple for a reason. Every time we ban something, it's for a reason. What is the reason for banning the Mii's alternate moves?

 

[MajorMajora]

Explain why it's "stupid" to go by what the game says instead of making up arbitrary rules. Also, answer my question please.

I thought I did answer that? Well, to answer it, I don't think so, but if the idea behind a customs-off ruleset is based on these non 1111 moves being in there being unhealthy, then letting the miis have everything seems like inconsistent logic.

I think its stupid to go by what the game says for a number of reasons. First of all, We historically have not. We don't care about sudden death, we ban stages the game says we can use, etc.. Secondly, the button in the top right corner has no direct connection to our ruleset. It shares similarities, but it's not directly connected. Our ruleset is not determined by it. It never has and there is no reason it should be.

It boils down to our definition of customs being different between the game and many of us. And that's fine, they can be different. Because we don't need to listen to the game. My argument is that, on a practical gameplay level, there is no reason we shouldn't lump mii moves 2-3 with the things we call customs, or the moves 2-3 of every other character. And don't say that the fact that they can be selected with customs off is a reason they are different. Whether or not that matters in the first place is what we are debating, so saying it justifies itself is circular logic.

 

[Balgorxz]

every day I am more convinced that people that want to ban miis or forcing 1111 don't know enough about the game, sometimes I see commentators and even players asking if their moves changes miis stats lol or if you can hide equipments, each mii moveset is a completely different character that's how they are balanced and how the game recognizes them with custom moves off.

from 1.10 onwards miis should be allowed in every tournament, if they aren't then they are just banning characters, i'd say its something like banning dark pit because of a different neutral special.

 

[Doruge]

So basically you want to ban mii moves because

1) We don't use sudden death/Temple/etc., therefore we can ban whatever we want for no reason
2) You feel like mii moves are "customs" even though the game itself disagrees with you
3) There's no reason not to ban them

I must say, none of these are particularly compelling reasons....

 

[MajorMajora]

So basically you want to ban mii moves because

1) We don't use sudden death/Temple/etc., therefore we can ban whatever we want for no reason
2) You feel like mii moves are "customs" even though the game itself disagrees with you
3) There's no reason not to ban them

I must say, none of these are particularly compelling reasons....

Either I am horrible at saying what I mean or you just aren't getting it. Here are things I thought I made quite clear:

A: I want all customs, including all mii moves.
B: I don't feel like it, I cited specific reasons.
C: There are plenty, but those also apply to all customs, and if it's not all or nothing than I can see that as nothing but a logical inconsistency.

 

[ZarroTsu]

A: I want all customs, including all mii moves.

On that note,

can anyone reliably define what it means to be a "custom"?

 

[Auramaniji]

So basically you want to ban mii moves because

1) We don't use sudden death/Temple/etc., therefore we can ban whatever we want for no reason
2) You feel like mii moves are "customs" even though the game itself disagrees with you
3) There's no reason not to ban them

I must say, none of these are particularly compelling reasons....

It seems that most of these posts are being too liberal and ignoring the point. Although he didn't state why temple/death/etc is banned, he did in a previous post. He clearly gave a reason why they should be banned under a non-customs enivroment by stating they are they custom according to him. As a trade, he just wants mii fighters to be in customs with everyone else.
I really respect his reasoning and logical conclusions, I don't see much of that on this thread anymore.

 

[Doruge]

Either I am horrible at saying what I mean or you just aren't getting it. Here are things I thought I made quite clear:

A: I want all customs, including all mii moves.
B: I don't feel like it, I cited specific reasons.
C: There are plenty, but those also apply to all customs, and if it's not all or nothing than I can see that as nothing but a logical inconsistency.

1. I don't care if you want customs. Why is that even relevant?
2. Your "specific reasons" are just similarities between the two. In case you didn't know, "similar" and "exactly the same" are two different things. We cannot ban mii moves just because they are "similar" to custom moves.
3. There are many reasons to ban customs that do not apply to miis at all. Logistics, balance concerns, and degenerate gameplay being the main ones.

 

[san.]

On that note,

can anyone reliably define what it means to be a "custom"?

There's what the game thinks.

Then there's what a bunch of random people who disagree think.

That's why it's easier to simply side with the game since we will continue to disagree on things.

 

[MajorMajora]

1. I don't care if you want customs. Why is that even relevant?
2. Your "specific reasons" are just similarities between the two. In case you didn't know, "similar" and "exactly the same" are two different things. We cannot ban mii moves just because they are "similar" to custom moves.
3. There are many reasons to ban customs that do not apply to miis at all. Logistics, balance concerns, and degenerate gameplay being the main ones.

Okay, by logistics I assume you mean unlocking them, since that's the only difference, which is a problem that is entirely possible to solve. Heck, it has been solved! Balance concerns/degenerate gameplay, many people have given **** about 2 of the mii brawlers up b's, and those are just as justified/unjustified as most other custom concerns.

Not to mention I fail to see the difference between a mii fighter and any other character. They're both just as customizable as far as movesets go, and in precisely the same way, so I see no reason they should be considered different in the first place. The one difference you've given me is the following:

Mii fighters are different because because the game itself categorizes differently. However, we have no reason to adhere to the menu in this case when we never have before, so if we have a reason to not go along with the game menu we should. My reason is that there is no practical difference between their moves 2-3 and custom moves 2-3 of other characters. You say there is a practical difference, and that is that they can be selected while customs were off. But for this to be valid you have to prove the menu should be listened to, which is the thing you are trying to prove with this. This is circular logic. Circular logic doesn't work.

@ san. We shouldn't just do what's easy. If something isn't called a custom but is functionally identical to customs, then it should be put in the same category as customs when we write rules, whether we call them customs or not. So if we ban customs we should ban all things functionally identical to them. If we ban all customs then there must be something qualitatively wrong with them, so there therefore must be something qualitatively wrong with everything qualitatively identical to them.

 

[Doruge]

Why do I have to prove that the game itself should be listened to? We use the game as a basis for creating a competitive ruleset. We do NOT use MajorMajora's personal opinion as a basis for creating a ruleset. The burden of proof is FULLY on you if you want to go against the game and ban something that is, by default, allowed.

 

[Auramaniji]

Okay, by logistics I assume you mean unlocking them, since that's the only difference, which is a problem that is entirely possible to solve. Heck, it has been solved! Balance concerns/degenerate gameplay, many people have given **** about 2 of the mii brawlers up b's, and those are just as justified/unjustified as most other custom concerns.

Not to mention I fail to see the difference between a mii fighter and any other character. They're both just as customizable as far as movesets go, and in precisely the same way, so I see no reason they should be considered different in the first place. The one difference you've given me is the following:

Mii fighters are different because because the game itself categorizes differently. However, we have no reason to adhere to the menu in this case when we never have before, so if we have a reason to not go along with the game menu we should. My reason is that there is no practical difference between their moves 2-3 and custom moves 2-3 of other characters. You say there is a practical difference, and that is that they can be selected while customs were off. But for this to be valid you have to prove the menu should be listened to, which is the thing you are trying to prove with this. This is circular logic. Circular logic doesn't work.

Now your basing your information on the game. Just like our pro-mii side, you're just going in circles. 2-3 customs are much different than of 2-3 customs, in fact they even have their own animations to differ from the cast. There is a very practical difference between what looks like HK and fox's fair, both have different attributes including kill power, frame start up, and lag.
Sure it is inspired by the cast, but the move is unique.
Now i'm just upset that this has lasted this long...

 

[MajorMajora]

Why do I have to prove that the game itself should be listened to? We use the game as a basis for creating a competitive ruleset. We do NOT use MajorMajora's personal opinion as a basis for creating a ruleset. The burden of proof is FULLY on you if you want to go against the game and ban something that is, by default, allowed.

Ummm, we do it all the time. Precedent is for our ruleset to be based on our own decisions over the game. The game decides we should be able to play on temple, but we don't. The game decides we should be able to use custom equipment if customs are "on". The very idea of a customs off ruleset is based on the idea that special moves 2-3 being included is inherently wrong, so unless there is something inherently different about mii moves 2-3, they should be banned.

I have come to realize that there are logistical differences. Really dumb ones from my point of view, but differences none the less that I would at least understand mii's being allowed to have all their moves unlike everyone else, so long as palutena can too.

Still would prefer everyone just let all customs in.

And about your comment on how this is just my opinion, no ****. This is my opinion on why we should go against what "the game says", a sentiment that is pretty muddled in and of itself. I am making an argument. I am debating. As are you. I gave my reasons, so there's the proof for my burden. You can argue against them but don't just disregard them like that. It's pretty insulting.

 

[san.]

Mii fighters are different because because the game itself categorizes differently. However, we have no reason to adhere to the menu in this case when we never have before, so if we have a reason to not go along with the game menu we should. My reason is that there is no practical difference between their moves 2-3 and custom moves 2-3 of other characters. You say there is a practical difference, and that is that they can be selected while customs were off. But for this to be valid you have to prove the menu should be listened to, which is the thing you are trying to prove with this. This is circular logic. Circular logic doesn't work.

@ san. We shouldn't just do what's easy. If something isn't called a custom but is functionally identical to customs, then it should be put in the same category as customs when we write rules, whether we call them customs or not. So if we ban customs we should ban all things functionally identical to them. If we ban all customs then there must be something qualitatively wrong with them, so there therefore must be something qualitatively wrong with everything qualitatively identical to them.

Historically, the community intervenes for aspects the game doesn't cover (stage striking) or when competitive play may be compromised (timeout rule, banning things), otherwise we traditionally do use the rules we select as intended. Tournaments that happen to use other rules are typically labelled as side events. I'm not sure where this idea that rules are arbitrarily ignored are in place, it was never really like that from what I recall the last decade.

I find the game allowing a special trait very important for the character, because the game has a known record of giving different characters special qualities about them. Some amounts of customization before a match is way more balanced than being allowed 2-3 characters at once for instance.


The amount of customization is not the same. You can change the Miis' sizes as well and others are trying to pidgeonhole players into sizes they may not prefer to play in.

quoting again:

@ san. We shouldn't just do what's easy. If something isn't called a custom but is functionally identical to customs, then it should be put in the same category as customs when we write rules, whether we call them customs or not. So if we ban customs we should ban all things functionally identical to them. If we ban all customs then there must be something qualitatively wrong with them, so there therefore must be something qualitatively wrong with everything qualitatively identical to them.

This is the first time where logistics are a large concern for custom moves outside of balance. It makes all logical sense to focus on the setting, because once custom moves are set to OFF, everything else functions as desired, while the definitions we have in our heads are subject to change or differ from each other.

Historically, I recall us following this mantra:

Competitively we allow for full potential of every character and when an issue arrises we pragmatically incorporate a change in the game if warranted (usually no changes need to be made and any changes that are made are first up to the balance team).
Succinctly: We first have to decide if there should be a line to be drawn before we ask this question. Right now there is no reason to propose for the line.

Mii fighters being allowed in their complete forms is the status quo, and it's on the onus of the community to make a good argument against it. For instance, Items are set to OFF and NONE because this setting turned out to be unfit for competitive play. However, the concept of items themselves aren't banned.

 

[MajorMajora]

^I agree. Mii fighters should be allowed to be at their full potential. As should everyone else. I can't really say customization is unique to miis when it... well... isn't. It's shared by most of the cast. To the exact same extent. The one unique feature they have is size customization, which I am all for.

Now your basing your information on the game. Just like our pro-mii side, you're just going in circles. 2-3 customs are much different than of 2-3 customs, in fact they even have their own animations to differ from the cast. There is a very practical difference between what looks like HK and fox's fair, both have different attributes including kill power, frame start up, and lag.
Sure it is inspired by the cast, but the move is unique.
Now i'm just upset that this has lasted this long...

...Either I misunderstood you or you misunderstood me. What were you saying here? I'm not saying mii moves are identical to moves from other characters, I'm saying them having 3 moves per special works just like other characters having 3 moves per special.

 

[Doruge]

^I agree. Mii fighters should be allowed to be at their full potential.

But only if you get what YOU want, otherwise screw 'em, right?

There will ALWAYS be customs-off tournaments, and right now the vast majority of tournaments are customs-off. I don't see what you're trying to accomplish by arguing against mii legality for these tournaments. Do you think it will convince more people to support the custom movement? Because you're actually accomplishing the exact opposite.

 

[FSLink]

We could argue about semantics and customs and rulesets all day.
But Miis are clearly designed to have varied movesets, they are not made to have 1111 as their moveset. If you allow Miis with all their specials, you get three interesting characters with the unique trait of having varied movesets, what's the issue here? Allowing them adds 3 unique characters to the roster and lets Mii specialists compete with a character they enjoy. I fail to see how it's not a benefit to the metagame. But some of you would rather not follow the ingame logic of allowing them in Customs OFF and to what benefit? Not following in-game's Sudden Death has a clear benefit to the metagame. Having rules for stage selections and bans has a benefit to the metagame. Not allowing Miis AND their specials has no benefit outside of following arbitrary logic just for the sake of consistency.

 

[MajorMajora]

But only if you get what YOU want, otherwise screw 'em, right?

There will ALWAYS be customs-off tournaments, and right now the vast majority of tournaments are customs-off. I don't see what you're trying to accomplish by arguing against mii legality for these tournaments. Do you think it will convince more people to support the custom movement? Because you're actually accomplishing the exact opposite.

Ummm... That wasn't my intention. I wasn't trying to hold mii fighters hostage our anything. I just think that most arguments as to why anyone should force mario and sonic to play as only 1111 also applies to mii fighters, since functionally they are essentially their own characters. The same logic applies, and I've only seen one or two reasons I can accept for them, and for the most part that's not the reasons most people are giving.

I suppose my argument was maybe giving off the wrong impression. I'm someone who gets upset at anything that seems to go against what I consider a solid chain of logic. Your argument has, and still does, to an extent, do that. Regardless of what is the ideal ruleset in my opinion, something that I feel spits in the face of logic.

We could argue about semantics and customs and rulesets all day.
But Miis are clearly designed to have varied movesets, they are not made to have 1111 as their moveset. If you allow Miis with all their specials, you get three interesting characters with the unique trait of having varied movesets, what's the issue here? Allowing them adds 3 unique characters to the roster and lets Mii specialists compete with a character they enjoy. I fail to see how it's not a benefit to the metagame. But some of you would rather not follow the ingame logic of allowing them in Customs OFF and to what benefit? Not following in-game's Sudden Death has a clear benefit to the metagame. Having rules for stage selections and bans has a benefit to the metagame. Not allowing Miis AND their specials has no benefit outside of following arbitrary logic just for the sake of consistency.

Okay but only if Palutena gets her customs too. Her custom moves were trumpeted about as her main feature, probably more than the miis.

Also, once again, Customs OFF in game and the a no custom ruleset are not synonymous terms.

Actually, scratch that. The rest of your post is full of reasons why everyone should be allowed customization, not just miis.

 

[Doruge]

I just think that most arguments as to why anyone should force mario and sonic to play as only 1111 also applies to mii fighters.

This is your personal opinion. The game disagrees with you. There is absolutely no reason to side with your opinion over what the game says. You must think pretty highly of yourself if you believe that anyone who disagrees with you must be "spitting in the face of logic".

 

[FSLink]

Personally yes I would also allow Palutena's but that's a different argument than this topic and would likely lead to pushing to having customs for everyone (which I'm all for, but again outside the scope of Miis) . She also has a coherent moveset in 1111 unlike the Miis and is not able to use her specials by the in-game logic in Customs OFF so I completely understand if people feel like Miis should have them and Palutena should not.

A lot of people feel that customs provide undesirable gameplay, but I do not see how Miis specials are arguably so outside of the Chakram infinite that was just found and will likely be patched. They are designed to have alternate specials. Allow Miis entirely or ban them because you don't want created characters that I feel provide interesting characters and movesets to the meta. I do not think they'd be harmful to the meta if they were available in Customs OFF.

 

[MajorMajora]

This is your personal opinion. The game disagrees with you. There is absolutely no reason to side with your opinion over what the game says. You must think pretty highly of yourself if you believe that anyone who disagrees with you must be "spitting in the face of logic".

Okay, a screwed up a bit. That was meant as a confession, not a boast. I saw it as illogical at the time was my point, so I got up in arms about it. English class has programmed me not to write the same thing the same way too many times so I tried to find more ways of saying "I found it illogical".

And since we seem to be arguing circles around each other (I think we've each made every point we're going to make at least 3 times now) and no one's giving up much ground, I'mma call it off. It was enlightening and enjoyable, than you for the wonderful debate.

 

[Ghostbone]

There are plenty of arguments for customs off Majora, you're basically just trying to make customs off as bad as possible as some way of protesting against the format. Whether or not you think customs should be on doesn't factor into whether mii fighters should essentially be banned in the customs off format, so stop bringing it up.

You keep talking about how mii fighters are "functionally" like custom moves, but they're clearly not since the game doesn't consider them to be. You can't just ignore that.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I just want to say here that the default for competitive play is always what the game allows. From there, modifications are made purely to benefit competitive play. The onus is on the community to prove that something should NOT be allowed in a competitive ruleset, because the default is always that it is. Restrictions should be conservatively imposed so as to minimize the divide between competitive play and the experience of the game itself. As such, the rules settings possible in-game should be used preferentially over outside influence, and any outside influence should be very carefully considered before being implemented.

 

[Jigglymaster]

A common argument I see is that while the game allows it, we ban things like time, bad stages, ect.

Okay, we ban 75m because it's a stage that causes degenerate gameplay, too big, it has problems, ect

We ban smash balls because they are random in their movement and cause characters to have access to incredibly powerful moves with no downsides.


So, why don't we ban Sheik? She has bouncing fish and no other characters do, so that's not fair. I don't want to learn the sheik matchup and she's not fun and I don't main her so we should ban her, she's the best character in the game and she's over centralizing the meta.

/sarcasm

Compare this to the mii fighters, why do we ban their other moves just because none of the other characters have access to it? The game allows it just like it allows Sheik to use bouncing fish. Does it cause degenerate gameplay? No. Does it cause overcentralizing to the meta? No. Look at EVO. Only 1 Mii Brawler cracked top 32 and he couldn't even make it to top 8. Heck Nieotono, one of Japan's best, didn't even make it out of pools with Mii Brawler.

So why ban it? We ban items because we all agree on it, but we don't all agree on the mii fighter's and their moves. Did you know that there are people who are QUITTING smash because of this dumb 1111 rule?

M2k is quitting himself because he can't enjoy the game much like I can't without Mii Brawler and his special moves. Look at what you're doing to us, and ask yourself how much does it really impact you and why do you have to make us suffer with this logic of things "not being fair" when there are plenty of other things that "aren't fair" that you guys allow.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

The "players quitting over the rule" thing initially sounds like poor reasoning. At first. It's easy to dismiss that and tell them to just "deal with it", as we are so fond of saying on the internet.

But.

But it's worth noting these are people who have invested months into learning these characters. These characters make them happy and make the game more fun for them, without harming the competitive scene. Now more and more venues are taking that away from them, or offering a poor compromise in "1111 only" which guts these characters because they were literally not designed around the concept of 1111, unlike every other character in the game.

Essentially this ruling tells Mii fans to stop having fun. They get upset about this because it's really not much different from if we were to make your character of choice operate under ridiculous constraints that make them basically unplayable. Imagine if we effectively made Rosalina unplayable. Would Dabuz be pissed? Yes, and rightly so. Imagine if Boss suddenly found Luigi gutted by rules limitations. Can you imagine such players considering leaving and going elsewhere if it happened to their characters? Speaking hypothetically, I sure can. If I were a Rosalina player and were told I couldn't use Luma, I'd walk.

That's what is happening with Mii players. They're being told to go without the main point of their character. Of course they're unhappy and leaving over it.

The current rules on Miis are not ones of some argument about hypothetical purity of play. They are ones that do not protect the meta from any real threat (thus gaining little of value) but do spit on the time people put in to learn these characters. It does a very real harm to them, because they have wasted all that effort and been told "Nope, the thing you like about competitive Smash is now illegal. Go away. Fairness!"

 

[John12346]

I'm just gonna go ahead and mention that the self-creatable tourney modes that were recently patched in to the game have toggles for Customizations, and another for Mii Fighters. If you set them to "Off" and "On," respectively, you still have the ability to choose any combo of Special Moves you like for Miis when you select them.

Have fun~

 

[Pegasus Knight]

(snip) game have toggles for Customizations, and another for Mii Fighters. If you set them to "Off" and "On," respectively, you still have the ability to choose any combo of Special Moves you like for Miis when you select them.

Have fun~

Admittedly my sample size is small, but most people I've met hosting tournaments so far online like this just... disable the Miis outright. At least the ones running 2 stock 6 minutes no items do that, anyway. It's really quite sad. I wish I could leave them messages on their tournament listing, asking what they're so afraid of.