Not doing anything about mii

[Auramaniji]

The reason for it being three minutes is entirely irrelevant. It still isn't competitive nor should we base this decision on tournament mode. But more important is your second point, because it is a common misconception. We ban things for other reasons too. In brawl for example we banned the mario bros stage despite the fact that if it was practiced the better player on that stage would win( ie it was competitive) the reason it was banned was it tested skills that only applied on itself and nowhere else. So it didn't make sense to keep it legal. I feel it also makes sense to keep customs off the mii fighters in customs off tournaments, and yes that means 1,1,1,1

Edit: I just noticed your next post, way to keep it civil dude /sarcasm

I'm done here but Jigglymaster you should really learn to have a discussion without resorting to name calling.

The reason why it was 3 minutes in total was for the purpose of recording, but that is besides the point. It makes total sense that the player would be knowledgable of that of character and stage if they played it for a long time. However, this can apply to every principle in the game, even down to the characters themselves. You have to work at the character to find the ins and outs, and that is we have already done. We have anti-mii strats in addition to having our character constantly backed by the support of the game and the community. I respect your thinking, but banning them for entirely different reasons on not making the effort to learn the match up is jumping the shark.

 

[Jigglymaster]

The reason for it being three minutes is entirely irrelevant. It still isn't competitive nor should we base this decision on tournament mode. But more important is your second point, because it is a common misconception. We ban things for other reasons too. In brawl for example we banned the mario bros stage despite the fact that if it was practiced the better player on that stage would win( ie it was competitive) the reason it was banned was it tested skills that only applied on itself and nowhere else. So it didn't make sense to keep it legal. I feel it also makes sense to keep customs off the mii fighters in customs off tournaments, and yes that means 1,1,1,1

The Mario Bros stage? You mean the one with the walkoffs? That had hazzards and created degenerate gameplay. That's why it was bad. Saying Mii Fighters getting to use more than 1111 is unfair is about the same as saying it's unfair that sheik has the best moves in the game. Your post doesn't make any sense.

Edit: I just noticed your next post, way to keep it civil dude /sarcasm

I'm done here but Jigglymaster you should really learn to have a discussion without resorting to name calling.

Wait? Selfish? You got offended by that? I'm sorry, I was simply trying to be polite to you and logically try to understand why you think the way you think. I could have said a lot of worse stuff but this was the least offensive word I could come up with that would justify the thoughts behind your opinion.

And it's crucial to this argument because it's the way you think.

I would be selfish if I said Mario should have access to all his moves, heck, even Palutena. You know why? Because the game doesn't let them use it with customs off. If customs are on and only Mario can use his customs, why not anyone else? I'm twisting the game's rules to my specific benefit. That's being selfish.

Now, on the other hand, Mii Fighters, they can use whatever they want despite customs being off. They're not broken either and are not OP. We have proof of this like I said. So when customs are off, using them is NOT selfish because I didn't have to twist the game's rules to benefit myself, that just how it is. Sheik always has bouncing fish, Mii fighters always have their special moves when customs are off.

YOU are the one twisting the rules to your own benefit (knocking all mii mains out of your competition), which, in turn, makes you selfish.

I can't fathom any other reason. Sorry.

 

[tecmo]

The Mario Bros stage? You mean the one with the walkoffs? That had hazzards and created degenerate gameplay. That's why it was bad. Saying Mii Fighters getting to use more than 1111 is unfair is about the same as saying it's unfair that sheik has the best moves in the game. Your post doesn't make any sense.






Wait? Selfish? You got offended by that? I'm sorry, I was simply trying to be polite to you and logically try to understand why you think the way you think. I could have said a lot of worse stuff but this was the least offensive word I could come up with that would justify the thoughts behind your opinion.

And it's crucial to this argument because it's the way you think.

I would be selfish if I said Mario should have access to all his moves, heck, even Palutena. You know why? Because the game doesn't let them use it with customs off. If customs are on and only Mario can use his customs, why not anyone else? I'm twisting the game's rules to my specific benefit. That's being selfish.

Now, on the other hand, Mii Fighters, they can use whatever they want despite customs being of. They're not broken either and are not OP. We have proof of this like I said. So when customs are off, using them is NOT selfish because I didn't have to twist the game's rules to benefit myself, that just how it is. Sheik always has bouncing fish, Mii fighters always have their special moves when customs are off.

YOU are the one twisting the rules to your own benefit (knocking all mii mains out of your competition), which, in turn, makes you selfish.

I can't fathom any other reason. Sorry.

OK so if I'm selfish I must have something to gain from this debate. I don't though, I main Rosa so my character is going to be good regardless of this. Your the one who gains something If we allow custom mii fighters as you admitted to maining the mii brawler. If anything, your position is the selfish one as your the one who directly benefits from this.
Get off your high horse and discuss this like something other than a 5 year old please.
now I'm done.

 

[Jigglymaster]

OK so if I'm selfish I must have something to gain from this debate. I don't though, I main Rosa so my character is going to be good regardless of this. Your the one who gains something If we allow custom mii fighters as you admitted to maining the mii brawler. If anything, your position is the selfish one as your the one who directly benefits from this.
Get off your high horse and discuss this like something other than a 5 year old please.
now I'm done.

*shakes head*

Literally just said Im not selfish because im not twisting the game's rules. THATS how the game just IS. MAYBE if the GAME made Mii Fighters 1111 when customs are off, like they do in event mode. THEN I'd give in for I'd be selfish.

But that's not the case is it?

Please read my posts before making your own.

 

[san.]

Mii Fighters
- The game allows it
- It's not Broken (within the scope of the current competitive ruleset)

Why do be ban it?

Can someone PLEASE just refute this?

 

[FSLink]

Mii Fighters
- The game allows it
- It's not Broken

Why do be ban it?

Because people are selfish, thats why.

Thank you for this. Very simple but makes tons of sense. I see no reason to ban Miis or limit them to 1111 when the game allows it through the rules.

OK so if I'm selfish I must have something to gain from this debate. I don't though, I main Rosa so my character is going to be good regardless of this. Your the one who gains something If we allow custom mii fighters as you admitted to maining the mii brawler. If anything, your position is the selfish one as your the one who directly benefits from this.
Get off your high horse and discuss this like something other than a 5 year old please.
now I'm done.

You do gain though, you don't have to learn the Mii matchups if they are banned when the game allows it.

 

[tecmo]

*shakes head*

Literally just said Im not selfish because im not twisting the game's rules. THATS how the game just IS. MAYBE if the GAME made Mii Fighters 1111 when customs are off, like they do in event mode. THEN I'd give in for I'd be selfish.

But that's not the case is it?

Please read my posts before making your own.

so we should only play the way the game let's us then right? Have fun playing in tournaments where sudden death (really a coinflip) can potentially decide a set.
come on dude we already do this that's not even an argument.

 

[san.]

so we should only play the way the game let's us then right? Have fun playing in tournaments where sudden death (really a coinflip) can potentially decide a set.
come on dude we already do this that's not even an argument.

Mii Fighters
- The game allows it
- It's not Broken (within the scope of the current competitive ruleset)
Why ban this?

Derailing isn't going to help you.

 

[Auramaniji]

OK so if I'm selfish I must have something to gain from this debate. I don't though, I main Rosa so my character is going to be good regardless of this. Your the one who gains something If we allow custom mii fighters as you admitted to maining the mii brawler. If anything, your position is the selfish one as your the one who directly benefits from this.
Get off your high horse and discuss this like something other than a 5 year old please.
now I'm done.

Rosa being unchanged caused you to argue all of this? Through all the twists and turns you have provided excellent counter arguments. This takes the cake as one of the worst conclusions.
I expected much more from you, and you were a great debater on the other side...but hiding behind a new account makes me feel sad.

 

[FSLink]

so we should only play the way the game let's us then right? Have fun playing in tournaments where sudden death (really a coinflip) can potentially decide a set.
come on dude we already do this that's not even an argument.

Playing what's effectively is a mini-game (Sudden Death) vs allowing unique characters in the metagame as they were designed (as create-your-characters with pick-your-specials) is not really comparable at all.

 

[Jigglymaster]

so we should only play the way the game let's us then right? Have fun playing in tournaments where sudden death (really a coinflip) can potentially decide a set.
come on dude we already do this that's not even an argument.

OH MY GOD DO YOU EVEN READ.

*holds you tightly up close*

Listen to me carefully.

Sudden death is an in-game mechanic, but we BAN it because it causes degenerate gameplay.

Do Mii fighters cause degenerate gameplay?

Yes, or no?

Can you read this?

 

[tecmo]

Thank you for this. Very simple but makes tons of sense. I see no reason to ban Miis or limit them to 1111 when the game allows it through the rules.


You do gain though, you don't have to learn the Mii matchups if they are banned when the game allows it.

Not really ), I'm In socal which if you don't know is incredibly conservative in smash rulesets. Even if they all of the sudden did allow mii fighters with customs (typically their banned altogether along with customs), nobody really learned them here so I doubt anybody would place highly with them here.

 

[Auramaniji]

Not really ), I'm In socal which if you don't know is incredibly conservative in smash rulesets. Even if they all of the sudden did allow mii fighters with customs (typically their banned altogether along with customs), nobody really learned them here so I doubt anybody would place highly with them here.

Give them a chance, they may place high. The game that we are in is so young, we can change things if we put in the effort to. I know I can, and this game can too.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I have a neato idea, lemme just put this out there:

Why don't we try ideas before we trash them? Let the idea itself stand on its own, and then judge the outcome?

Good idea? Bad idea? Any takers?

 

[FSLink]

Not really ), I'm In socal which if you don't know is incredibly conservative in smash rulesets. Even if they all of the sudden did allow mii fighters with customs (typically their banned altogether along with customs), nobody really learned them here so I doubt anybody would place highly with them here.

Then they should allow them, if they aren't even going to "place high" anyway (the entire cast is also getting balance changes regularly, including Miis, so who knows, we might see more people switching to them if they were allowed).
I have friends who do live in SoCal and I do disagree with some of their rulesets. Which is fine, but I don't feel most of the anti-Mii arguments have anything substantial besides "we don't like this" or just using a lazy blanket "no customs" rule without seeing how the game treats Miis.

I have a neato idea, lemme just put this out there:

Why don't we try ideas before we trash them? Let the idea itself stand on its own, and then judge the outcome?

Good idea? Bad idea? Any takers?

Agreed.
I have the same opinion of customs ON as well, which is a different argument, but I find it baffling the Smash community is so quick to ban things after so little time, especially when at EVO arguably customs haven't been problematic in the very least. Coming from a SF and Marvel background, it's so odd to me.

Shoot I don't even mind the banning of Miis if it were for logistical reasons (which have easy solutions and fixes making the extra time negligible) but the 1111 stuff is silly, and it prevents dedicated Mii mains from using their character as it was designed and allowed by the game even in Customs OFF.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Plus I see a lot of people complain about Mii size variations but I've yet to see it actually pose a tournament problem. Because there hasn't been a tangible situation (or rather, I'm not aware of it; but if there were I'd have heard of it as a cited counter-argument by now, I think) wherein size variation was ever a problem. It's just another boogy man that doesn't exist, but everyone's afraid of it.

I'm seriously convinced the fighting game community here lacks any and all reasonable ability to adapt to situations. And it boggles my mind. Ice levels in video games must be a quitting point for most gamers, I guess?

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Some thoughts on all this. On more than one occasion you may notice I am repeating, or refining, points JohNumbers or someone else has already raised. Perhaps it will get through better this way.

- There is no 'default' move for a Mii. There is 'the first option in a menu of choices', much like you scroll through the menu at a diner and pick what you want. Miis ignore the Customs Off switch for purposes of move selection only (their Equipment, if any, does get turned off).

- The Miis don't even present a coherent game plan on 1111. Brawler has no kill moves outside of fishing for raw smashes and super high percent throws in this way. Swordfighter becomes overly specialized in close combat if run as 1111, horning in on Brawler's gimmick. Gunner... well, Gunner I admit you can at least tell what they want to do to win, even if they are not good at it.

- I've said it, JohnNumbers has said it, others have said it, but this has to be repeated: Miis only ignore move restrictions in Customs Off. Their Equipment, if any, still gets disabled. Select screen will imply otherwise by showing an icon of their modified stat spread, but their stats actually don't change if you set Customs Off. This was a very conscious design decision.

- "This is a unique advantage for the Miis" misses the point. Lots of characters have unique advantages. Mega Man can fire some projectiles while moving. Rosalina has a puppet that can break her out of combos and throws. Mac has Armor on his smashes. The Miis all fight in straightforward ways. Very straightforward. Their special advantage for being so straightforward is they can be fine tuned to the user's preference.

- Miis do not take 'long to set up. Give a Mii player a reasonable time limit (90 seconds or so) and they'll have their Mii ready to go and be back at the select screen before it's up. And they only need to do it once per tournament station. This takes less time than those absurd 'handwarmer' grade button checks where players don't just test buttons, they test out combos. It takes less time than coaching sessions do, too. If it's a matter of height/weight, standardized Miis for the heights that Mii's main players think are best would suffice.

- What specific harm is there in allowing the Miis to work as they're supposed to? None of them turn into Brawl MK or Super Turbo Akuma or have the potential to stall out games to Time Over repeatedly.

- Um, wow, Jigglymaster. Sorry to hear about that... cancer is rough. I wish you the best in getting through it!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Every other competitive game I can think of turns off custom characters due to setup (I don't even have all three types of Mii Fighter on my Wii U), metagame variance, and various differences in physics. I'd say that Mii players are lucky they get to use their character(s) in tournament at all.

Hop on the customs train or be content with default size/1111. I'm not fine with only certain characters getting to change their character to better deal with whatever comes their way, and I don't care what the game says about Custom Moves. There was (is?) a 3DS glitch that allowed you to use a Custom set in certain modes while still switching them to Off. What the game says doesn't move me in that situation.

 

[san.]

Every other competitive game I can think of turns off custom characters due to setup (I don't even have all three types of Mii Fighter on my Wii U), metagame variance, and various differences in physics. I'd say that Mii players are lucky they get to use their character(s) in tournament at all.

Hop on the customs train or be content with default size/1111. I'm not fine with only certain characters getting to change their character to better deal with whatever comes their way, and I don't care what the game says about Custom Moves. There was (is?) a 3DS glitch that allowed you to use a Custom set in certain modes while still switching them to Off. What the game says doesn't move me in that situation.

I'm curious why you think that way. It's a lot more tame than say transforming characters since at most it's in-between matches and aren't as good as picking an entirely different character.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The Miis have significantly more slots for custom stuff than other characters (there's something like 90-100, iirc). Are we okay with people potentially making a new set after every single game they play? An extra ~90 seconds tacked onto all sorts of games. How do we decide where to draw the line? Customs conveniently had it there at 10 maximum, with having sets in advance getting around the issue of holding up events. If we're not willing to apply the setup for Customs, I don't think it makes sense to apply the setup for other stuff.

As far as availability, Palutena has her other specials available from the start, too, so as far as what should be allowed, her stuff fits just as well, IMO. I'm not saying that she invalidates the "extra specials on Miis" logic, but if the argument for Miis but against Custom Moves is "they're already there," Palutena's are already there, too.

Long story short, if you're willing to do any setup at all, I think you should take it to its logical end, and not use "what a switch in the game says" as the master arbiter for deciding whether or not to cut it short. The things Mii players seek to add are the exact same things that allowing all customs would add, and I don't think they should have special options available to them when other characters are just as easy to set up. We don't disallow unlockable characters or stages just because they aren't available when you first launch the game.

 

[Tinkerer]

You realize this has been done, right? Theorizing about what might happen isn't really fruitful. There's non-customs tourneys with the availability of Miis already being ran - the potential switching of Mii for every matchups is just not something that actually happens, as even with height/weight and move differences they generally can't actually suddenly counter a character they do bad against well. You just switch to another character, like it is for anyone else, or at least that has been my general experience with these rulesets.

If worst comes to worst, you can always force people to lock themselves to a single Mii they made themselves and not be allowed to fiddle around with the settings. As far as I know though, that hasn't been necessary.

 

[Illuminose]

Combined with more accessible and feasible online practice for Miis now and the fact that I didn't actually know Mii equipment doesn't work with customs off, my issues with allowing custom Miis as in non-presets are pretty much laid to rest. I don't like changing Mii sizes still. The Miis become fundamentally different by changing size in terms of range, hitboxes, and mobility. Fighting different Mii sizes is in essence fighting different characters in terms of mobility and stuff you have to deal with. Also...tiny Mii Brawler. Position now is all customs with imports allowed but default size only.

oh btw mii counter picking is totally a thing, have you ever watched dapuffster switch to piston punch brawler and c/p halberd? he does it (or at least used to, he's been scarce recently) all the time.

 

[T0MMY]

Are we okay with people potentially making a new set after every single game they play? An extra ~90 seconds tacked onto all sorts of games.

This is assuming that people will do that, which they won't. Because they can upload ALL of their potential Mii before a round and that will stay for every set in the entire tournament.
What you are proposing is not just extreme, it's not going to happen.
This is assuming there are any Mii players in the tournament to begin with - as a Mii main I took note of all Mii players at a large tournament you might have heard of called Evo and there were about five of us in a ~2,000 player event I saw.
Also make note that the few Mii players that exist do not make it very far in brackets (again, see Evo), so any potential issue is still far from a concern at this time.

How do we decide where to draw the line?

Competitively we allow for full potential of every character and when an issue arrises we pragmatically incorporate a change in the game if warranted (usually no changes need to be made and any changes that are made are first up to the balance team).
Succinctly: We first have to decide if there should be a line to be drawn before we ask this question. Right now there is no reason to propose for the line.

Customs conveniently had it there at 10 maximum, with having sets in advance getting around the issue of holding up events. If we're not willing to apply the setup for Customs, I don't think it makes sense to apply the setup for other stuff.

First off, never lump Miifighters with Customs (that is sin #1 of Mii rules).
Secondly, the 10 set characters do not help with time very much at all considering they take a long time to upload and are generally just a hassle. They also restrict people from using the sets they want to use if they are outside the 10 sets available making a mockery of Customs.
Again, just allowing people to upload their Mii or use the complimentary 1111 Guest Mii is a simple resolution.

As far as availability, Palutena has her other specials available from the start, too, so as far as what should be allowed, her stuff fits just as well, IMO.

Argument ad Palutena is sin #2 of Mii rules.
Bringing this argument definitely hurts Mii fighters and arguably hurts Palutena players.
Palutena in a non-customs rules does not get special treatment like the Mii do not - if customs are on we leave that to the TO to decide how customs are used.

Long story short, if you're willing to do any setup at all, I think you should take it to its logical end, and not use "what a switch in the game says" as the master arbiter for deciding whether or not to cut it short.

This is a strawman, we don't argue that a switch dictates the game, the very fundamental theory of competition starts with the game at its basic settings and tweaks from there - we need sound reasoning to incorporate rules changes. Any rulings against Mii must have reason, simple as that, the Custom Fighter button is simply a function of the game that we can utilize to toggle custom fighters on or off, simple as that - it is by design that the developers do not give us the custom fighters On in competition and clearly state they are "for fun" in online as well as put it in our face by having to unlock custom parts in fun minigames that are intimately tied to Equipment (setting them distinctly apart from unlocking characters/stages which are a common part of many competitive fighters).
As a competitor I opt for Custom Fighters: OFF and Mii to be freely exploited to their full potential to see how the meta develops before making any rash decisions that could otherwise ultimately hurt our community.

 

[MajorMajora]

Miis are functionally like other characters in every way, other than cosmetics and size differences. This has nothing to do with custom moves. The only difference custom moves-wise is in the menu interface. Making decisions based on this would be caring about how sakurai thinks the game should be played, which would be hypocritical since we never have.

I think they should be allowed all their moves, but I think everyone should. Saying it's okay to include their specials that aren't 1111 is saying that their other specials are not harmful to the game, which is directly contradictory to the very idea of a customs-off meta. It's hypocrisy. I disagree with the idea of a non-customs meta, but the idea of people legitimately allowing miis to use custom moves in that meta is so hypocritical that it infuriates me. If a TO adds that, it screams to me that they don't even care if their own logic is sound, because they actively disregard their own reasons for banning a huge amount of content for arbitrary reasons.

 

[Cos.]

I'm

Wow... the circles in this conversation are amazing... so much spinning... could make people feel nauseous (but for real... half the people here seem to be debating for the sake of of debate... which isn't a particularly great means to an end for the original intent of this topic.)

A few points for both sides:

- It is likely that mii fighters have a default move set... at least kirby's copy ability indicates this (true, only one of the four specials... but should be registered in the debate)

- the term customs is defined where and by whom? You're going to continue circle arguing until you get clear definitions... Is it based on the custom switch given by the game? Or is based on the choice of character moveset? The truth is... that's not defined... Plus... even when it's defined... it's pure semantics... in effect this type of semantics should not be the basis of the discussion at hand

Maybe I can give some perspective from a small playing community:
I usually play smash with friends and occasionally will attend a local tourney now and then. To my knowledge I'm still the only person who has all custom moves unlocked on a 3ds and no one is interested in going through the effort of copying all custom movesets over to their wii u... ergo customs moves are not a thing for our locals... I can live with that (play testing customs and setting things up... it is an effort I'm not that interested in going through, especially if I would have to push things). The logistics for miis are simpler... all moves and characters by default on all setups (soon enough at least) , and if you use a 3ds setup to help out, you only have to copy over the movesets of one character to the wii u (copying all customs over takes an hour time for one wii u... a difference you see).
I play with customs off with friends, and it is by chance they tried out the mii fighters, and one friend really enjoyed one of the (non-default setups) and other friends try them out as well... people have different mii preferences for dabbling.
I push for openness in regards to rules, characters and stages and like to be more liberal... but only if don't have to put in a huge effort to set things up... again, and again. I willing to discuss what things are more game disturbing and and what things create and interesting, challenging and still competitive play style... And you know what... people disagree with me at times... which is fine, because solutions and compromises can be found.

In the end the debate boils down to a thing of preference. Preference which a large majority of people can agree with is what needs to be found. Customs are cool... but in a small community... it's just a hassle... only mii fighters with customs... much less of a hassle... Give Palutena her customs? I could see that being discussed. Why not let mii's be their own special thing? I don't play miis, but I find the character concept intriguing and would like to see a minority of people make something interesting with them.

This topic is obviously to state opinions... so state them simply and clearly, and stop pushing around semantics... because all semantic arguments brought from one side or another don't have sufficient basis to lead to a pure logical conclusion... live with the fact that opinions need to be stated and that communities have to come to a consensus. Being pricks about it does not help. (I'm not calling anyone out... most of you are fine about it... but some people are clearly following an uncalled for debating charade)

 

[MajorMajora]

I'm

Wow... the circles in this conversation are amazing... so much spinning... could make people feel nauseous (but for real... half the people here seem to be debating for the sake of of debate... which isn't a particularly great means to an end for the original intent of this topic.)

A few points for both sides:

- It is likely that mii fighters have a default move set... at least kirby's copy ability indicates this (true, only one of the four specials... but should be registered in the debate)

- the term customs is defined where and by whom? You're going to continue circle arguing until you get clear definitions... Is it based on the custom switch given by the game? Or is based on the choice of character moveset? The truth is... that's not defined... Plus... even when it's defined... it's pure semantics... in effect this type of semantics should not be the basis of the discussion at hand

Maybe I can give some perspective from a small playing community:
I usually play smash with friends and occasionally will attend a local tourney now and then. To my knowledge I'm still the only person who has all custom moves unlocked on a 3ds and no one is interested in going through the effort of copying all custom movesets over to their wii u... ergo customs moves are not a thing for our locals... I can live with that (play testing customs and setting things up... it is an effort I'm not that interested in going through, especially if I would have to push things). The logistics for miis are simpler... all moves and characters by default on all setups (soon enough at least) , and if you use a 3ds setup to help out, you only have to copy over the movesets of one character to the wii u (copying all customs over takes an hour time for one wii u... a difference you see).
I play with customs off with friends, and it is by chance they tried out the mii fighters, and one friend really enjoyed one of the (non-default setups) and other friends try them out as well... people have different mii preferences for dabbling.
I push for openness in regards to rules, characters and stages and like to be more liberal... but only if don't have to put in a huge effort to set things up... again, and again. I willing to discuss what things are more game disturbing and and what things create and interesting, challenging and still competitive play style... And you know what... people disagree with me at times... which is fine, because solutions and compromises can be found.

In the end the debate boils down to a thing of preference. Preference which a large majority of people can agree with is what needs to be found. Customs are cool... but in a small community... it's just a hassle... only mii fighters with customs... much less of a hassle... Give Palutena her customs? I could see that being discussed. Why not let mii's be their own special thing? I don't play miis, but I find the character concept intriguing and would like to see a minority of people make something interesting with them.

This topic is obviously to state opinions... so state them simply and clearly, and stop pushing around semantics... because all semantic arguments brought from one side or another don't have sufficient basis to lead to a pure logical conclusion... live with the fact that opinions need to be stated and that communities have to come to a consensus. Being pricks about it does not help. (I'm not calling anyone out... most of you are fine about it... but some people are clearly following an uncalled for debating charade)

As reasonable as this post sounds, I have to disagree. It's far more objective than it may seem, from my eyes at least. Looking at it from the point of view of the exact practical reality of mii's versus other fighters, there are certain differences and similarities.

However, size not withstanding, the only differences between miis and other fighters are interface differences. Their customs are unlocked sooner, you access their special moves differently, you have to make a custom set to play them, etc.. However, just like other fighters, they have 3 moves for each special, and when starting a match you choose one set and you use that. Call some of them customs and some of them not, refer to how the interface works, it's all moot. All that is stuff we've never cared about before, and doing so will be hypocritical. It'll be an excuse, not a reason.

Miis and other fighters, once you get into it, work exactly the same. Therefore, we should treat them the same, even if big daddy Sakurai christens them with different names. He also made time the default mode. We've never cared before, we have no right, reason, or excuse to care now. If the interface is your only argument, you have no argument unless you deny a great deal of the philosophy behind the current competitive community. If you look for your argument in gameplay, and you find any, it'll be news to me.

 

[Doruge]

Miis are functionally like other characters in every way, other than cosmetics and size differences. This has nothing to do with custom moves. The only difference custom moves-wise is in the menu interface. Making decisions based on this would be caring about how sakurai thinks the game should be played, which would be hypocritical since we never have.

I think they should be allowed all their moves, but I think everyone should. Saying it's okay to include their specials that aren't 1111 is saying that their other specials are not harmful to the game, which is directly contradictory to the very idea of a customs-off meta. It's hypocrisy. I disagree with the idea of a non-customs meta, but the idea of people legitimately allowing miis to use custom moves in that meta is so hypocritical that it infuriates me. If a TO adds that, it screams to me that they don't even care if their own logic is sound, because they actively disregard their own reasons for banning a huge amount of content for arbitrary reasons.

Miis can use their alternate moves with customs off. This alone proves that they are functionally unique and that they are separate from custom moves. You seem to be saying that because Sakurai wants Miis to be fully useable with customs off, we should automatically reject that for basically no reason other than "sakurai said this so let's do the opposite".

 

[MajorMajora]

Miis can use their alternate moves with customs off. This alone proves that they are functionally unique and that they are separate from custom moves. You seem to be saying that because Sakurai wants Miis to be fully useable with customs off, we should automatically reject that for basically no reason other than "sakurai said this so let's do the opposite".

No, I'm saying that just because Sakurai says we can doesn't mean we should. We don't base things on the interface, we never have. Miis, functionally, are exactly the same. You might need to jump through slightly different hoops to use the non 1111 sets for other characters, but in the fight they are the same. Customs off doesn't mean we avoid the blue flames but everything else is okay, in the same way that just because customs are on doesn't mean we can use equipment. Customs on/off is a matter of writing rules on what is or isn't allowed, not whether or not we should hit the customs button in the corner of the screen.

 

[Doruge]

No, I'm saying that just because Sakurai says we can doesn't mean we should. We don't base things on the interface, we never have. Miis, functionally, are exactly the same. You might need to jump through slightly different hoops to use the non 1111 sets for other characters, but in the fight they are the same. Customs off doesn't mean we avoid the blue flames but everything else is okay, in the same way that just because customs are on doesn't mean we can use equipment. Customs on/off is a matter of writing rules on what is or isn't allowed, not whether or not we should hit the customs button in the corner of the screen.

If we aren't basing rulesets off of the game itself, then what should we base them off of? Because I'd much rather base them off of the actual game, than base them off of nonexistent logic like "if you don't ban this you're a hypocrite!" or "if I don't get what I want then i'm taking miis down with me!"

 

[MajorMajora]

If we aren't basing rulesets off of the game itself, then what should we base them off of? Because I'd much rather base them off of the actual game, than base them off of nonexistent logic like "if you don't ban this you're a hypocrite!" or "if I don't get what I want then i'm taking miis down with me!"

Okay, I should explain. By functionally, I mean in the actual match, the place of competition. In the match, there is no difference. The only place with a difference is the menus, and we have never cared about those in the past. To care about them now is illogical.

Even in the customs on vs customs off debate, the menu has never mattered, only the moves. With Miis, the moves function in the match the exact same way, the only thing that differs is the hoops you jump through to get them. We have never cared about these things in the past, to do so now would be illogical.

Every character has 3 specials per move, labeled 1-3. Some call some of them customs, some call all of them customs, it doesn't matter, When you get down to it the actual effect these things have on competition is exactly the same, all that differs is a bunch of arbitrary labels.

There are people who want customs banned. I am not one of them. But people don't just want to turn the "customs on/off" thing to off, they want what they call customs (the moves labeled 2-3) to not be used in competition. They care about the effect on competition. We go through the menu in order to get the type of game we want, not because it is a vital part of competition. In customs on meta we don't turn the customs option on because we want the option to be on for the sake of itself, but because we want to use what we call customs (moves 2-3) and that is the only way to do it. We could theoretically turn customs on (with the blue flames and everything) but then still ban all sets besides 1111. Heck, we even ban some things that are allowed with customs on (custom equipment).

Now, are you telling me you want to ban all move 2-3 except for 3 arbitrary characters just because Sakurai said so? That's as ridiculous as saying custom equipment should be allowed if customs are on because you can technically select them while customs are on, or that Temple should be legal because it's on the same stage select screen as the other legal stages.

 

[Doruge]

Equipment and the Temple stage are unfit for a competitive environment, so they are banned. Now, explain to me why Mii moves are unfit for a competitive environment and need to be banned, because you have yet to do so.

Also, saying there's no difference in the actual match is absurd. In the actual match, Miis can use their alternate moves while every other character is restricted to 1111. This is NOT just a "menu difference".

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, saying there's no difference in the actual match is absurd. In the actual match, Miis can use their alternate moves while every other character is restricted to 1111. This is NOT just a "menu difference".

Mii Fighters aren't even available in the game unless you create them, so they're at our mercy when it comes to rulings, and because of that it makes sense for them to have the same restrictions as the rest of the cast (if they should be allowed -at all-), whether that's 1111 or all special moves available. Height/weight and specials are things that we control before the menu even has a say in whether or not they can use certain moves.

 

[MajorMajora]

Equipment and the Temple stage are unfit for a competitive environment, so they are banned. Now, explain to me why Mii moves are unfit for a competitive environment and need to be banned, because you have yet to do so.

Also, saying there's no difference in the actual match is absurd. In the actual match, Miis can use their alternate moves while every other character is restricted to 1111. This is NOT just a "menu difference".

...I don't think they are unfit. But according to the very idea of a customs off ruleset they are. That is what I mean by hypocrisy (among other things).

And yes, every other character can use all of their moves. You just have to hit the button in the top right that says customs to do so. This is not impossible, it is just as possible to do as selecting a non 1111 mii. The only difference between the two is how they are accessed. That is what I mean by a 'menu difference".

And don't go saying that you can't hit that button in a customs off ruleset. That's not what customs off means. Customs off means you can't use custom moves (how those are defined are up to debate, I suppose, but that's what I'm trying to do here).

I've had to explain several things twice here, including that I am in favor of customs, which you seem to ignore. Please read my full posts carefully before responding.

 

[Doruge]

Mii Fighters aren't even available in the game unless you create them, so they're at our mercy when it comes to rulings, and it makes sense for them to have the same restrictions as the rest of the cast, whether that's 1111 or all special moves available. Height/weight and specials are things that we control before the menu even has a say in whether or not they can use certain moves.

I don't see how any of that is a reason to impose arbitrary moveset restrictions on them. Sure, it would make sense if Miis were restricted to 1111 like everyone else. But they are not, and there's no logical reason to go against that.

...I don't think they are unfit. But according to the very idea of a customs off ruleset they are. That is what I mean by hypocrisy (among other things).

A "customs off" ruleset means customs are turned off. It does not mean that every form of customization is banned nor does it mean that anything "similar" to custom moves is banned.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In the same way that custom characters are banned in virtually every other fighting game. A need for setup, different and arbitrary rules set only for them, varying physics to be worried about. Those are perfectly logical reasons to ban them outright.

I'm not saying that's what we should do, but claiming that allowing them or their custom specials follows infallible logic is dumb and wrong.

 

[san.]

In the same way that custom characters are banned in virtually every other fighting game. A need for setup, different and arbitrary rules set only for them, varying physics to be worried about. Those are perfectly logical reasons to ban them outright.

I'm not saying that's what we should do, but claiming that allowing them or their custom specials follows infallible logic is dumb and wrong.

I went through all of their physical characteristics of sizes back in the winter. There is not much different. Kill % are the same as well with a difference of a few % for survivability.

http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Character_data.htm also details the difference in endlag times. Startup is the same.

Other fighting games are poor comparisons since there may be tons of extra details that do not apply here.

 

[MajorMajora]

I don't see how any of that is a reason to impose arbitrary moveset restrictions on them. Sure, it would make sense if Miis were restricted to 1111 like everyone else. But they are not, and there's no logical reason to go against that.




A "customs off" ruleset means customs are turned off. It does not mean that every form of customization is banned nor does it mean that anything "similar" to custom moves is banned.

Customs off ruleset is not about setting customs to off. We do that because it makes things easier. It's about getting rid of things we identify as "custom moves", the definition of which is rather sketchy in regards to mii fighters. However, when we look on the impact on the game itself, not just how the menu works, of their move 2-3, it's identical to the "custom moves" 2-3 of every other character. Whether or not you can select them while customs are "turned off" is completely irrelevant to their effect on competition and is not valid reason for separating them from moves 2-3 of any other character.

For reference, here are also things that you can do when "customs are turned on" (should actually be called 'when the customs option is off', because the debate on whether or not miis count as customs should be entirely separate from how the menu defines them).

• Time matches
• Coin matches
• Playing on Pacland
• Kicking the opponent really hard in the shin

If these are things you think should not be allowed, then you accept that what the menu says you can or cannot do has no impact on the rules. If you think that and you also think mii fighters should always be on even if the custom option is turned off (which you seem to be confusing with the concept of a no customs meta), then you are a hypocrite, since you believe something but you also believe the opposite in a slightly different context.

 

[Doruge]

In the same way that custom characters are banned in virtually every other fighting game. A need for setup, different and arbitrary rules set only for them, varying physics to be worried about. Those are perfectly logical reasons to ban them outright.

None of those are reasons to force them into 1111 though. Setup and varying physics aren't an issue when you can just create guest miis on the spot.

Customs off ruleset is not about setting customs to off. We do that because it makes things easier. It's about getting rid of things we identify as "custom moves".

This is just flat-out incorrect. I don't even know what else to say other than that.

 

[tecmo]

None of those are reasons to force them into 1111 though. Setup and varying physics aren't an issue when you can just create guest miis on the spot.




This is just flat-out incorrect. I don't even know what else to say other than that.

Care to elaborate rather than just saying "its incorrect because i say so"? Whether or not we should use the in game logic or make the miis use 1,1,1,1 like every other character, is entirely subjective there is no right or wrong answer just opinion.

 

[MajorMajora]

None of those are reasons to force them into 1111 though. Setup and varying physics aren't an issue when you can just create guest miis on the spot.




This is just flat-out incorrect. I don't even know what else to say other than that.

Allow me to explain the difference.

"Customs: Off": A toggled option in the CSS is chosen so that custom sets for all non mii characters may not be selected. It allows all mii sets but deactivates any custom equipment on them.

"No customs/customs-off meta/ruleset": A ruleset and the associated meta-game in which custom moves, the definition of which may or may not include mii fighter moves 2-3 on all their specials, are disqualified. Often, when practicing this moveset, the customs option is set to off, but they are not one and the same. The rules associated with "Customs: Off" have a lot of overlap with a customs off ruleset, in some versions of the ruleset they may entirely overlap, but it is impossible to say they are the same thing. One is a ruleset outside the game and the other is one inside the game. In this way they are definitively different.

My arguments are based around the idea that a ruleset that entirely overlaps with the rules established by "Customs: Off" would have logical inconsistencies.

Side note: I got a new avatar because I really like Gakuto from prison school, but looking at it I feel like this avatar makes me look like more of an ass hole. Can I get any feedback on this?