Not doing anything about mii

[ZarroTsu]

"I don't understand how to fight this character. So I'll ban it so I don't have to learn."

-- Someone, somewhere.

 

[ArticulateT]

I always felt that the banning of custom moves in general was something that represented a fear held by many competitive players within the metagame, or at the very least the more vocal or influential. That fear is the possibility of a fluid metagame, an exaggerated contempt towards anything that might muddle with the tier list.

I've heard, a fair few times, players that consider themselves competitive claim that their opponent, who was actually doing rather well in the match, was playing the character 'wrong'. It didn't matter whether they were winning or having a good time, it wasn't the textbook strategy of the character, and was therefore wrong.

I think Miis represent this chaos more than anything, hence the need by most to clamp down on them, and a part of me fears that this will inevitably damage the character in future instalments of the game.

I'll just put my tin foil hat on for this, but let's say the next instalment of the game is being made with input from the competitive scene, data collected from tournaments and competitions from around the world, and they find that the Miis had not been considered as true characters because of their unique and chaotic nature. One thing I would hate is for Smash 5's Miis to have their unique moves removed from the game so they can be custom skins for the existing roster, like what happened with Soul Calibre after Namco couldn't be bothered to fix and refine the original moves they put forward for Soul Calibre 3. I was very excited by the way Sakurai and his team put together the Miis for Smash, and I would hate to see that go away.

In short, I agree that the Miis shouldn't have restrictions, and if they do it should be down to their size alone. Custom moves will help keep the metagame alive and evolving for years after Smash 4 is surpassed, and the game is far too young to simply throw experimentation out the window in favour of a safe, stale metagame.

 

[thehard]

I've already seen a bunch of players say that Miis aren't "real characters". But at least their Friidom has a better chance than custom moves as a whole

 

[kewl]

We should just ban people customizing their controller settings - since you know it's considered as custom settings.

 

[wizrad]

It seems like one of the biggest reasons behind banning/neutering Miis is that opponents would have to study more matchups (which is extremely lazy, but whatever). What we Mii mains want is unrestricted access to our special moves and sizes, and, in a competitive environment, being able to choose the best moves and size of the bunch. So, instead of forcing the arbitrary guest-52/48-1111 handcuffs on Miis, why don't we instead limit them to one size and move set that can be agreed upon as most optimal (at the time, at least)? Learning how to fight a guest 1111 Gunner is just as easy as learning to fight a 25/0 3123 (or whatever is considered the best) Gunner. This seems like a good compromise to me, as Miis get much more viability and other players get standardization.

As for whether their full movesets and sizes should be allowed at all in a 'CUSTOMS OFF' environment, I believe that we should defer to the game's ruling on the subject. What many refer to as the Miis' "custom moves" aren't considered to be custom moves by the game. Miis are also completely separated from every single other "Custom Fighter" in the game; you have to go into completely different menus to select either. And still, with custom moves set to 'off', Miis are allowed to be of any possible combination of height and weight.

tl;dr: Miis should be allowed one set of specials each, along with one size, both chosen for optimization, in order to appease both sides of this dispute.

EDIT: here's something I just posted in the Brawler forums addressing the "issue" of having to learn the different Mii matchups:

Actually, I think we should talk about Pokémon for a second. It is, after all, another competitive gaming community from which to seek precedents.

• You get six slots in which you can put any of the 719 Pokémon, already allowing for 4314 possible team combinations
• Each Pokémon has six stats, each with its own IVs and EVs. There are 192 possible IV combinations for each Pokémon, and a countless number of possibilities for EVs, with 510 total points able to be distributed across six stats with a limit of 252 on each stat.
• Each Pokémon has one item slot in which it can hold almost any item. Here's a list of all the items in the current game (spoiler alert: there are a lot of items): http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_items_by_index_number_(Generation_VI)
• Each Pokémon has one of a possible three abilities.
• Each Pokémon has one of 25 possible natures.
• Each Pokémon has four slots in which it can have any of its possible moves, with 621 moves available in-game, allowing for about 2479 possible movesets on any given Pokémon.
• There are also the variables introduced by doubles and triples, as any Pokémon can occupy one of any two or three areas on the field, changing its area of attack and vulnerability.

So, adding that all (excluding items and EVs) up, every competitive Pokémon player has to prepare for somewhere around 153999446400 different possible teams, without any knowledge as to the opponent's strategy. And I forgot to include alternate forms and status effects in that math. I'm not going back through all that to change it.

Do you think there are more than 153999446400 different Mii possibilities? I don't even know how to say that number. Arguing that there are "too many" Miis is lazy and makes the Smash scene look bad in comparison to Pokémon. Anyways, I wholeheartedly believe in the ability of the average competitive Smasher to understand the different moves and sizes of Miis in relation to their matchups.

I also forgot to include typings in my math.

 

[Illuminose]

Competitive Pokemon is absolutely garbage precedent for whatever it's worth. Pokemon generally run specific, optimal movesets including moves, EVs, nature, what have you. You can absolutely change up these aspects and do have to scout sets/bait, but saying the amount of combinations doesn't really tell the whole story because an experienced player will have an idea of what to expect and what options to look out for. It's not even the same genre of game anyways, making it a useless base for comparison. In many fighting games (to my understanding), create-your-own characters like the Miis are outright banned.

Source: I played competitive Pokemon for 4 years.

e: I'm actually not sure, is just what I've heard

 

[John12346]

Competitive Pokemon is absolutely garbage precedent for whatever it's worth. Pokemon generally run specific, optimal movesets including moves, EVs, nature, what have you. You can absolutely change up these aspects and do have to scout sets/bait, but saying the amount of combinations doesn't really tell the whole story because an experienced player will have an idea of what to expect and what options to look out for. It's not even the same genre of game anyways, making it a useless base for comparison. In many fighting games (to my understanding), create-your-own characters like the Miis are outright banned.

Source: I played competitive Pokemon for 4 years.

I believe Miis still fall in the same boat as Pokémon though, regardless of genre. Do they not run their optimal height/weight/movesets, thus reducing the number of combinations one needs to keep track of? Seems awfully familiar...

Also I don't think I've ever heard of create-your-owns in fighting games, unless the concept was absolute customization available to the whole cast. Do we have any examples here?

 

[FSLink]

I believe Miis still fall in the same boat as Pokémon though, regardless of genre. Do they not run their optimal height/weight/movesets, thus reducing the number of combinations one needs to keep track of? Seems awfully familiar...

Also I don't think I've ever heard of create-your-owns in fighting games, unless the concept was absolute customization available to the whole cast. Do we have any examples here?

Some of the Soul Calibur games has created characters as a thing, but they aren't allowed in competitive play. Mostly due to time restraints due to the interface and lack of an easy way to import to tournament consoles. Miis don't really have this issue, and they provide more competitive value since they play very differently from the rest of the cast.

 

[wizrad]

Soul Calibur, if I remember correctly, also only provided custom characters with move sets that were otherwise already available in-game, as well. At least, it was so in IV, but please correct me if I'm wrong, as I haven't played that game in years.

Edit: As for Pokémon, I also play competitively off and on, and I can say that, while you can have a general idea of what's coming when you see your opponent's Pokémon, you still don't know their moves or EVs. I've threatened people into switching with Pokémon that actually posed very little threat to them, because they were spec'd differently from what they expected. But Miis are different, yes, because fighting games are very different. Still, the level of variation is miniscule in comparison, and, considering there are only three Mii weights and a handful of good moves for each kind, opponents will almost always know what to prepare for, even if they didn't have to be told what the Mii was running.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Everyone has heard of Miis in smash4, being infamous for helicopter kicks and one-inch punches. On the other side of the coin however, Mii isn't even being
played that much.

However, here you have a guy that is pushing a character to it's limit. Dapuffster even though he might lose it all, he's still going strong. No matter what the community thinks about him and what he does. He's not looking for anything of fame, he wants to properly educate you about Miis so other people could use them.

Just that one thing.
And the community just sits there like a childern picking their noises, screaming "la la la, I can't hear you! Me who?".

But oh, the instant when someone gets the helicopter kick to the face and dies...The community just overreacts and throws a tantrum all over.

We of the smash 4 competitive community are much better than this. I know that for a fact. So i'm asking this forum a simple question, why are we still not doing anything to legalize miis?

I have an obvious solution.
Let the game decide to an extent.
Since miis are allowed without customs on or off and still retain their custom moves, they must be allowed. To truly have a custom fight with a mii according to the game, would be to fight a mii with equipment.
So for my solution, Miis should be universal allowed in custom or non custom tournaments but with no equipment, and be fully customizable in size and attire.
These sizes should fall into three main categories based on frame data:
Tiny
Medium
Large
And this does not require the mii to be absolutely like the size, but must fall into one category.

Ex: A skinny medium mii

Lastly, the importing of homemade miis can easily be done by importing fighters by 3DS or even a qr code. If someone wanted to simply add a mii to a tourament, he or she could send a message to the TO or just even add it via mii maker.
After that, mii fighter creation would be as good as done.

(However for time constraints
one might not choose a costume.)

I really think you might find this solution to be practical and easy to work with.
Thank you for reading.

I disagree. Even though it doesn't count as being a "custom Mii", it still makes the Mii have a bigger arsenal than the other characters, which results in the Miis having an advantage over the others. However, I don't think they should be banned because of this. I honestly think each tournament should have 8 Miis Fighters of each class to choose from; the look shown in their official art, and seven more to act as pallet swaps. Every single Mii should have the 1111 moveset, and default weight, so that they can be treated as any other fighter in the game when customs are turned off. They may not be the best characters in the game, but at least it would be fair to both the people who play the Miis and the people who don't.

 

[san.]

Miis can only use 1 special at a time during the match, making it much more fair than characters who can use many different attacks from a single special. It's smarter in almost all ways to switch characters than Mii sizes if your Mii is losing, and it requires even more adaptation from your opponent than whatever variance Mii sizes provide.

 

[King Omega]

To me, the height/weight attributes of the Miis are more akin to equipment and warrant standardizing. Being able to adjust the character on a (in the case of the Miis, literal) slider with custom speed vs. power vs. defense trade-offs is something the community has already decided against allowing in tournaments. Sure, some pieces of equipment also have crazy extra effects, but not all of it, and on the whole, stat customization ought to be omitted/"default" for Miis in the same way it is for all other characters.

Miis should definitely be allowed any set of their custom moves in all tournaments, though.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I honestly think each tournament should have 8 Miis Fighters of each class to choose from; the look shown in their official art, and seven more to act as pallet swaps. Every single Mii should have the 1111 moveset, and default weight, so that they can be treated as any other fighter in the game when customs are turned off. They may not be the best characters in the game, but at least it would be fair to both the people who play the Miis and the people who don't.

All zero 1111 Mii mains will be happy and thank you for this.

EDIT: Actually let me reword this.

"Aw man thank you! I was so worried I wasn't going to be able to play as 1111 Mii Fighter in tournament!"

Said nobody ever.

 

[san.]

To me, the height/weight attributes of the Miis are more akin to equipment and warrant standardizing. Being able to adjust the character on a (in the case of the Miis, literal) slider with custom speed vs. power vs. defense trade-offs is something the community has already decided against allowing in tournaments. Sure, some pieces of equipment also have crazy extra effects, but not all of it, and on the whole, stat customization ought to be omitted/"default" for Miis in the same way it is for all other characters.

Miis should definitely be allowed any set of their custom moves in all tournaments, though.

False. Equipment isn't used cause of customs off setting. Stat customization itself isn't banned because quite a few moves alter character properties. Burst movement, Wii Fit Trainer's buff, Monado powers, etc. Even so, equipment is banned because of random stats, steep scaling for the first 70 points, and too many broken abilities that add extra multipliers that stack with each other.

Miis have the same survivability within a few %. Miis have the same kill power within a few % (even though damage decreases). Miis have relatively the same physics. Miis' speed variability barely reaches Mario levels unless you're tiny Brawler which is close to a faster yoshi with awful range. Attack startup is the same. End lag and movement speed change as a tradeoff to losing a lot of range.

 

[King Omega]

False. Equipment isn't used cause of customs off setting. Stat customization itself isn't banned because quite a few moves alter character properties. Burst movement, Wii Fit Trainer's buff, Monado powers, etc. Even so, equipment is banned because of random stats, steep scaling for the first 70 points, and too many broken abilities that add extra multipliers that stack with each other

I never said property/stat changing of any sort was disallowed; that would just be silly since as you say lots of characters' moves do that now. But Mii size is stat customization that takes place at the same level as other character customization like equipment, so not the same thing at all.

Miis have the same survivability within a few %. Miis have the same kill power within a few % (even though damage decreases). Miis have relatively the same physics. Miis' speed variability barely reaches Mario levels unless you're tiny Brawler which is close to a faster yoshi with awful range. Attack startup is the same. End lag and movement speed change as a tradeoff to losing a lot of range.

Firstly, the differences in stats being small doesn't mean they should be included in competitive play. And secondly, if they're so negligible, why do Mii mains even want them or care if they're "banned?"

 

[GeneralLedge]

Firstly, the differences in stats being small doesn't mean they should be included in competitive play. And secondly, if they're so negligible, why do Mii mains even want them or care if they're "banned?"

There's this thing called "fun" people often forget about in this community.

Is it "fun" to ruin other player experiences to fulfill a smug sense of meta-changing satisfaction?

I propose we ban every character except Sheik. Results have proven that there's no need for feeble, naive 'variety' in our current meta. You won't win with Bowser. So why does it matter if he's banned?

 

[King Omega]

There's this thing called "fun" people often forget about in this community. Is it "fun" to ruin other player experiences to fulfill a smug sense of meta-changing satisfaction?

This doesn't address anything I said at all.

I don't have a problem with Miis in the current meta, so really, I don't care whether your "fun" is ruined or not. I'm just questioning what makes stat tweaking at the character customization level, à la custom equipment for everyone else, okay for Miis.

I propose we ban every character

Gosh, this doesn't get tiresome at all...

You won't win with Bowser. So why does it matter if he's banned?

Fortunately, the "why does it matter" was just an observation I made about san's response, not my actual reason for wanting standardized Mii size. But you ignored those actual reasons in favor of complaining about "fun."

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I'll rephrase the question: Why is letting the Miis change their height/weight a problem? It is one of their design features, much like Shulk has Monado Arts and Rosalina has a puppet.

Others have put forth this bizarre appeal to purity where we're asked to imagine the plight of top players who practice extremely in-depth combos. Won't someone pleaaaase think of the poor ZeRo/Dabuz/Boss/Walking-PR-Disaster (aka Mew2King)/etc. who spend 37 hours a day practicing combos in the lab for every conceivable circumstance? How can we not notice that mutable Mii sizes will ruin their combos forever and doom them to a shadow realm of perpetual misery when they must fall back on a 50% damage 'works on everyone' combo instead of a 51% character-specific one?

Somehow we're told this will invalidate their hard work. One supposes the fear here is a sacred top player will be eliminated by 'jank from a Mii' or whatever.

Nonsense. Evo's results prove this handily enough. The Miis barely made an impact, Dapuffster's performance aside. There is no danger in letting optimal-size Miis run about.

If top players are already putting in 37 hours a day at being the bestest ever at Smash 4, the obvious answer is they can spend 37 hours and 5 minutes a day instead because that's how long it will take for these top players to figure out the differences in Mii physics.

Why are people seriously putting forth the argument that we need to remove (or 'standardize') a major design feature from the Miis is some sort of problem comparable in nature (if not scope) to Equipment? This would seem to insult the player's capacity to adapt and learn, and we have real results proving the game isn't hurt by this. It's a baffling appeal to 'purity' that seems more hypothetical than practical, and it mostly serves to limit some players' legitimate fun with Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I don't have a problem with Miis in the current meta,

And why is that? I'm of course assuming your through experience comes from a background of playing as or against Miis competitively, on a regular basis?

I'm just questioning what makes stat tweaking at the character customization level, à la custom equipment for everyone else, okay for Miis.

Those dastardly Miis and their ability to give themselves a significant boost to a specific stat in exchange for reduced respawn time! Those dastardly Miis and their ability to increase the effectiveness of their item throws! Those dastardly Miis and their ability to regenerate health over time!

All of this with customs off, too! I didn't know we were such brash, uncontrollable cheaters. I thought I just wanted dthrow to combo into uair consistently!

I'm sorry. I didn't know.

 

[wizrad]

Please, for the love of Sakurai, stop saying 'default size' in reference to guest Miis. They are not 'default' in any sense of the word. They are not:

• 50/50 size
• faster than importing from a 3DS
• more balanced
• acknowledged by the game as 'default'
• even actually a part of Super a Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS

If you're going to argue that Miis should be restricted in this unique way, please, at least come up with an actual argument. Calling it 'default' just because that's how others do it and using that as an argument is a logical fallacy. However, I am all for standardizing Miis. I believe that Miis should be allowed their specials in a customs off meta and they they should be allowed their sizes. Still, the versatility granted by this is far beyond what is granted to any other character. Thus, I propose each Mii have one standard moveset and size, chosen by the Mii's player community, similar to AA's custom moveset project. It'd be a custom Mii project, I suppose.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

All zero 1111 Mii mains will be happy and thank you for this.

EDIT: Actually let me reword this.

"Aw man thank you! I was so worried I wasn't going to be able to play as 1111 Mii Fighter in tournament!"

Said nobody ever.

Playing the 1111 Miis is better than not playing them at all. They may not be the best characters in the world, but guess what, neither is Palutena! Do you see people banning her? No.

I'll rephrase the question: Why is letting the Miis change their height/weight a problem? It is one of their design features, much like Shulk has Monado Arts and Rosalina has a puppet.

Others have put forth this bizarre appeal to purity where we're asked to imagine the plight of top players who practice extremely in-depth combos. Won't someone pleaaaase think of the poor ZeRo/Dabuz/Boss/Walking-PR-Disaster (aka Mew2King)/etc. who spend 37 hours a day practicing combos in the lab for every conceivable circumstance? How can we not notice that mutable Mii sizes will ruin their combos forever and doom them to a shadow realm of perpetual misery when they must fall back on a 50% damage 'works on everyone' combo instead of a 51% character-specific one?

Somehow we're told this will invalidate their hard work. One supposes the fear here is a sacred top player will be eliminated by 'jank from a Mii' or whatever.

Nonsense. Evo's results prove this handily enough. The Miis barely made an impact, Dapuffster's performance aside. There is no danger in letting optimal-size Miis run about.

If top players are already putting in 37 hours a day at being the bestest ever at Smash 4, the obvious answer is they can spend 37 hours and 5 minutes a day instead because that's how long it will take for these top players to figure out the differences in Mii physics.

Why are people seriously putting forth the argument that we need to remove (or 'standardize') a major design feature from the Miis is some sort of problem comparable in nature (if not scope) to Equipment? This would seem to insult the player's capacity to adapt and learn, and we have real results proving the game isn't hurt by this. It's a baffling appeal to 'purity' that seems more hypothetical than practical, and it mostly serves to limit some players' legitimate fun with Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner.

But it's not a part of their moveset, and it basically customization. Something that other characters can't do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but EVO allowed customs.

Because it is equipment that changes your hitbox as the added effect. It has nothing to do with the player's abilities. It puts anyone playing another character at a disadvantage because someone could make any size Mii they want. and it could have any stats, but the other characters can't. Also the only way without being very time consuming with the Mii Maker, you would have to own a 3Ds to make your custom size Mii, something not everyone can do.

Please, for the love of Sakurai, stop saying 'default size' in reference to guest Miis. They are not 'default' in any sense of the word. They are not:

• 50/50 size
• faster than importing from a 3DS
• more balanced
• acknowledged by the game as 'default'
• even actually a part of Super a Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS

If you're going to argue that Miis should be restricted in this unique way, please, at least come up with an actual argument. Calling it 'default' just because that's how others do it and using that as an argument is a logical fallacy. However, I am all for standardizing Miis. I believe that Miis should be allowed their specials in a customs off meta and they they should be allowed their sizes. Still, the versatility granted by this is far beyond what is granted to any other character. Thus, I propose each Mii have one standard moveset and size, chosen by the Mii's player community, similar to AA's custom moveset project. It'd be a custom Mii project, I suppose.

• Comparing the size of a Mii with unchanged height and weight and the Guest Miis, they are the same size.
• Not everybody has a 3Ds.
• Default =/= balanced.
• There are no Miis the game recognizes as "default", otherwise there would be Miis that functioned like all the other default fighters.
• None of the Miis are.

It's not unique. Every other character has this restriction. That said a custom Mii project is a good idea. It doesn't give the Miis a huge advantage, while keeping most people happy.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Playing the 1111 Miis is better than not playing them at all. They may not be the best characters in the world, but guess what, neither is Palutena! Do you see people banning her? No.

Then don't justify yourself as a decent person who thinks this is fair towards mii mains. Because it's not and none of us are happy.

They weren't the best characters in the world one way or another, but its what we had practiced with for the past year. And it's the metagame that we chose to follow.


Anyone who allows 1111 only instead of banning them is actually a piece of **** who wants to feel good about themselves like they're not banning a character when they actually are. You either allow them fully or you ban them fully, there should be no 1111 inbetween. Palutena is not similar to this fashion at all because you never had to create her to ever play her to begin with.

 

[san.]

Playing the 1111 Miis is better than not playing them at all. They may not be the best characters in the world, but guess what, neither is Palutena! Do you see people banning her? No.

I'd rather use a different character than torture myself. It's also much easier to stay at home than trudge out 3-7 hours to tournaments as well, especially when the motivation to play is banned.

But it's not a part of their moveset, and it basically customization. Something that other characters can't do.

Sure they can.

Kirby has potentially 50+ specials since he can absorb his opponent and use their neutral special.

Shulk can crazily change his physics and power.

Clones exist that vary slightly in all of their values.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but EVO allowed customs.

Because it is equipment that changes your hitbox as the added effect. It has nothing to do with the player's abilities. It puts anyone playing another character at a disadvantage because someone could make any size Mii they want. and it could have any stats, but the other characters can't. Also the only way without being very time consuming with the Mii Maker, you would have to own a 3Ds to make your custom size Mii, something not everyone can do.

Not sure what the random part on equipment is about. Mii sizes don't affect much, especially combo-ability when they are hit by other characters. already detailed it many times in other posts. It affects the mii player more outside of having to space differently for the Mii's speed+range and endlag.

• Comparing the size of a Mii with unchanged height and weight and the Guest Miis, they are the same size.
• Not everybody has a 3Ds.
• Default =/= balanced.
• There are no Miis the game recognizes as "default", otherwise there would be Miis that functioned like all the other default fighters.
• None of the Miis are.

It's not unique. Every other character has this restriction. That said a custom Mii project is a good idea. It doesn't give the Miis a huge advantage, while keeping most people happy.

• I believe that guest miis are NOT 50/50, though I have no video proof and trust the words of those that said that.
• The problem is..? This only affects the players that are willing to transfer. Why should I be penalized when I can transfer and make life easy? It's more work to create new miis on each setup than transfer my 5 or so miis. Mii players that don't have 3DS will just have to borrow one, use what's on the system, or use guest miis. Not very difficult??
• Yeah, they're not more balanced... Not sure where the disconnect is?
• I suppose, just create the mii you want to use.
• Sure, once you create them. The game doesn't force you to use guest miis is what I think he was trying to get at. The game specifically gives you rewards for creating Miis, just like how other characters are unlocked through other game modes.

 

[Rashyboy05]

I feel like Miis should follow the "Innocent until proven guilty rule".

Until there is proof that Mii customs cause Logistical issues and easily taking tournaments by storm then there is no need for Miis to be restricted to 1111 sets when the game allows you to use sets other than 1111 in customs-off settings. It's simply better to ban Miis rather than forcing them to 1111 sets. Everyone benefits. The TOs don't have to waste a few minutes just to make the Miis and the Mii mains don't have to spend money attending the tournaments.

 

[blackghost]

what is the logic for restricting the these characters? becuas it loks like people ban these characters as the easy way out so they dont have to learn thier moves. The game determins that these characters first off are real (don't act like they aren't its bs), the game says these characters can use any combo of specials they want. Mii mains have a right to use the characters as they see fit within the rules the game sets not just TOs. Why are these characters facing so much hate?

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I feel like Miis should follow the "Innocent until proven guilty rule".

Until there is proof that Mii customs cause Logistical issues and easily taking tournaments by storm then there is no need for Miis to be restricted to 1111 sets when the game allows you to use sets other than 1111 in customs-off settings.

Remember when "innocent until proven guilty" was an actual thing? Those were good days

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Then don't justify yourself as a decent person who thinks this is fair towards mii mains. Because it's not and none of us are happy.

They weren't the best characters in the world one way or another, but its what we had practiced with for the past year. And it's the metagame that we chose to follow.


Anyone who allows 1111 only instead of banning them is actually a piece of who wants to feel good about themselves like they're not banning a character when they actually are. You either allow them fully or you ban them fully, there should be no 1111 inbetween. Palutena is not similar to this fashion at all because you never had to create her to ever play her to begin with.

Oh. I'm sorry. I forgot I am the only person who likes characters for being that character, and not because of movesets, or tournament legality. I may not have the best ideas but don't curse me out because of my beliefs if they aren't physically or mentally hurting anyone.

That said. I shouldn't have been so edgy with you in the first place. For that I really am sorry. You also have a good point. The Miis people experimented with are not 1111, and it throws away any time they spent practicing those Miis. However, I feel that the same could be said for any that practiced with customs on in general. I don't like when I see characters not being used, or just outright banned, so I don't want the Miis to be banned because of the "all or nothing" mentality that is all too popular amongst fans. I believe that the it isn't fair to the people willing to make use of the fixed Mii movesets just because the majority says all or nothing. Here is my opinion: Every character has a fixed moveset while customs are off, and if the Miis don't follow suit, it isn't fair to the other characters. It also isn't fair to people who use Miis if they are banned because of this. Especially since the community can come together to create what they think is the best moveset for each Mii class, and have that specific build be legal. It limits the people who were using different builds, but at least the character could be played, and those who are willing to learn how to play that specific build are able to play competitively using the character they want to use. Which to me, that is important. You can disagree with me, many others will disagree with me, and more still don't care what I have to say. But let's disagree a bit more respectfully ok?

• I believe that guest miis are NOT 50/50, though I have no video proof and trust the words of those that said that.
• The problem is..? This only affects the players that are willing to transfer. Why should I be penalized when I can transfer and make life easy? It's more work to create new miis on each setup than transfer my 5 or so miis. Mii players that don't have 3DS will just have to borrow one, use what's on the system, or use guest miis. Not very difficult??
• Yeah, they're not more balanced... Not sure where the disconnect is?
• I suppose, just create the mii you want to use.
• Sure, once you create them. The game doesn't force you to use guest miis is what I think he was trying to get at. The game specifically gives you rewards for creating Miis, just like how other characters are unlocked through other game modes.

• They are. I made sure of this when making default Miis based on the Mii fighter's official art. I'd show proof, but it would take a while, and it wouldn't really matter anyway.
• Which brings us back to Miis with the default size. It limits the people who have no access to a 3Ds, but want to use the Mii Fighters.
• There is none. I put it in reply to what wizrad said.
• Nothing to say about this point
• Which means either the Guest Miis are a part of the game, or none of the Miis are until they become Mii Fighters.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Oh. I'm sorry. I forgot I am the only person who likes characters for being that character, and not because of movesets, or tournament legality. I may not have the best ideas but don't curse me out because of my beliefs if they aren't physically or mentally hurting anyone.

You act as if the movesets are the only thing I care about. If I wanted to care about that stuff, I would have picked Shiek. I play Mii Brawler because I hate the rest of the cast (I found them horrendously boring and dull) and I loved the fact that I could play as "anybody". It lets me enjoy the game by playing as my favorite characters or people that would never have a chance at actually being in the game.

Being limited to Guest Miis and 1111 only is not "anybody". This is not the character I originally mained. I mained a character that was able to be made in the way I best see fit. The CREATE A CHARACTER. Even if you let me play with any moveset as a guest mii I still won't be satisfied. This is not what I signed up for.

The community is literally killing my interest with this character. All I'm doing at this point is hoping for some actual good DLC characters that I'd actually enjoy and then hope that people don't suddenly decide to ban DLC characters too the moment I get what I want.

Sorry if I sound a bit disrespectful to people like you, but it really is people like you who have killed my enjoyment for this game. I just want you all to know that.

 

[wizrad]

Da homie san. gets me. Shout out to san.

Also, you should know that the guest Miis aren't the ones in the Mii Fighters' art. They have different skin tones and hair colors. And how can you eyeball something as small as a few clicks on the size sliders? I know I can't, and I wouldn't be confident in my ability to do so. Fact is, we don't really know the sizes of the guest Miis. We know they look pretty close to mid/mid, but we don't know that. The same thing goes for not knowing if all of the guests are the same size. If the only reasoning behind using guest Miis is that they are already on the system (which seems the only legitimate argument to me), why don't we just use the console owner's Mii, too? That's already on the system, and I'm pretty sure it's the first one you can select, so it's even faster! It might even be a better size for us Mii mains (:

As for no other character being able to change their size, someone on the Brawler boards said something like, "Miis can change sizes, Shulk has Monados, Kirby has Copy Abilities, Meta Knight has a sword, Mario has a mustache". Very well put.

Edit: As for not having a 3DS, the TO should have one in case people don't bring theirs or don't have one. That's basically what they're there for, to provide for competitors and make things go smoothly.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You act as if the movesets are the only thing I care about. If I wanted to care about that stuff, I would have picked Shiek. I play Mii Brawler because I hate the rest of the cast (I found them horrendously boring and dull) and I loved the fact that I could play as "anybody". It lets me enjoy the game by playing as my favorite characters or people that would never have a chance at actually being in the game.

Being limited to Guest Miis and 1111 only is not "anybody". This is not the character I originally mained. I mained a character that was able to be made in the way I best see fit. The CREATE A CHARACTER. Even if you let me play with any moveset as a guest mii I still won't be satisfied. This is not what I signed up for.

The community is literally killing my interest with this character. All I'm doing at this point is hoping for some actual good DLC characters that I'd actually enjoy and then hope that people don't suddenly decide to ban DLC characters too the moment I get what I want.

Sorry if I sound a bit disrespectful to people like you, but it really is people like you who have killed my enjoyment for this game. I just want you all to know that.

I'm sorry I ruined the game for you. You have every right to be mad at me for doing so.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Thus, I propose each Mii have one standard moveset and size, chosen by the Mii's player community, similar to AA's custom moveset project. It'd be a custom Mii project, I suppose.

You will NEVER get the players of these three characters to agree on one build.

Brawler you will come close on; most of them will accept 0/0 size, Uppercut + Onslaught + Helicopter Kick + Feint Jump. There will be those who want more range, or want a different Up-B or Side-B though. Not many, but they will be upset if these options aren't available. I'm one of them; I refuse to play 0/0 Brawler and I insist on having Piston Punch instead of Helicopter Kick.

Swordfighter is even worse in this regard, almost every single one of his moves is legitimately useful and there is just no way you'll find a 'one true Swordfighter' that makes everyone happy. Not when all three of his down-Bs are very different and legitimately useful. Not when his side-Bs all have big trade-offs so they're a matter of personal preference. Not when neutral B likewise has three very different moves. About the only one you'll get agreement on is the Up-B, and even then there are a few who prefer the ones that aren't Hero's Spin.

Gunner has the same problems. With the recent grenade nerfs, Charge Shot and Laser are realistic choices to consider now. All of the side-Bs are entirely different moves and while I think Stealth Burst is terrible you'll get some real debate on whether Flame Pillar is better than Missiles or not. The Up-B is a user preference thing due to trade-offs. The Down-Bs all have their uses.

The Miis aren't at all like Custom Moves on other characters, where we've found there are outright superior choices in each slot on most of them.

 

[Tinkerer]

Here is my opinion: Every character has a fixed moveset while customs are off, and if the Miis don't follow suit, it isn't fair to the other characters.

This is kind of a crucial argument I see coming back time and time again in these threads and as a justifier for certain rulesets (like Xanadu's). Makes me wonder if this has actually ever been a problem? Japan plays with default size, customizable Miis, and you never hear any complaints about that and works very well as a compromise to let Mii mains play their character while still having a consistent weight/height so every matchup isn't different. The feared "they'll switch customs against different characters" never really ever happened with customs on all characters, let alone with Miis.

Seriously, almost all of the "Miis with all moves allowed are unfair" stuff seems to be purely based on theorycrafting and assumptions about what players and audiences think, even though there's a big scene in Japan and a small one in Europe already running this stuff without problems. Practical proof always trumps long theory.

 

[ZarroTsu]

It isn't fair to everyone who doesn't play the character. Because they'll feel like inferior players, and inferior human beings, and inevitably quit smash brothers. We need to protect the delicate part of our community, or it will never grow.

It's much more efficient to let the minority quit smash brothers instead. That way, everyone who matters is happy.

Other fighting game communities will herald us for our wisdom.

 

[wizrad]

You will NEVER get the players of these three characters to agree on one build.

Brawler you will come close on; most of them will accept 0/0 size, Uppercut + Onslaught + Helicopter Kick + Feint Jump. There will be those who want more range, or want a different Up-B or Side-B though. Not many, but they will be upset if these options aren't available. I'm one of them; I refuse to play 0/0 Brawler and I insist on having Piston Punch instead of Helicopter Kick.

Swordfighter is even worse in this regard, almost every single one of his moves is legitimately useful and there is just no way you'll find a 'one true Swordfighter' that makes everyone happy. Not when all three of his down-Bs are very different and legitimately useful. Not when his side-Bs all have big trade-offs so they're a matter of personal preference. Not when neutral B likewise has three very different moves. About the only one you'll get agreement on is the Up-B, and even then there are a few who prefer the ones that aren't Hero's Spin.

Gunner has the same problems. With the recent grenade nerfs, Charge Shot and Laser are realistic choices to consider now. All of the side-Bs are entirely different moves and while I think Stealth Burst is terrible you'll get some real debate on whether Flame Pillar is better than Missiles or not. The Up-B is a user preference thing due to trade-offs. The Down-Bs all have their uses.

The Miis aren't at all like Custom Moves on other characters, where we've found there are outright superior choices in each slot on most of them.

I know, it's not really what any of us wants, but we need to make some compromise with the rest of the community. They see that we can use more specials than they can and they feel cheated and want Miis banned, which has already happened. Many other characters have choices on their specials too, based on matchup. I think it's already been brought up in this thread. However, their players generally stick to one moveset that is the most generally useful. I think Swordfighters would go to Shuriken, Chakram, Spin, and Rainbow Slash and Gunners would stick with Grenade, Missile, up B 1, and either Shine or Bomb Drop.

Anyways, it's all in the interest of fairness, too. Other characters can only use one set of specials with customs off, so we should follow suit. It may not be easy for us to decide on which set, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Chakram

AA's a lot better for its unique cross-stage recovery (especially since they made it so you can't slide off the ledge anymore) and SL is good for rapid-fire punishment (and low horizontal recovery).

Of course therein lies why Swordfighter has trouble determining a compromise on a single moveset.

 

[NegaNixx]

What's the problem with allowing any customization in Moveset but standard(ized) size? The Moveset allows the Mii mains to keep their customization while the standard size allows all the not Mii mains to practice against them. That way people only have to worry about knowing >81 (3^4) different move combinations instead of 64x64 (? I think that's the number of variants in Mii maker) size combinations. It doesn't even have to be the default Miis we're given just standard size so that we can have our Vegetas, Hank Hills, and Felix the Cats.


It's a compromise that works for both. Mii Fighters become more standardized and therefore easier to practice against and confirm against, but also hold that personality that each individual player brings. It's not like it takes long to make a custom Mii for the few Mii mains there are (of note @ Jigglymaster , Keitaro, and M2K).

Logistics is simple, Practice for and against is simple, variety is still there, the characters aren't broken (news flash they never were), we don't alienate the players of three characters, we keep good players from leaving and backing the scene It's a fair compromise.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I know, it's not really what any of us wants, but we need to make some compromise with the rest of the community.

I'm done compromising. '1111 only' was a compromise that worked out terribly. Evo has proven this isn't a real problem. Japan has proven this isn't a real problem. Every step of the way, Mii players have compromised and tried to be as helpful as possible. Standardized loadouts, pre-made sizes via QR code, and publishing research to help people make informed opinions. We're not the villains in this matter.

So why is it that a very loud minority of players have managed to cry so much that tournament organizers, fearing the opinions were actually much more widespread, shut down the proper form of the characters some of us enjoy?

Oh, because 'fairness'. Nevermind that we've shown there is no balance problem here for these unusual characters to fully work as intended. If their unique gimmick is a fairness problem, then I demand Rosalina be forced to jettison Luma at every opportunity and play without her unique puppet advantage. I demand we hack the game to remove Mac's armored smashes, because that's his unique advantage. Everyone reading this should of course realize those 'demands' are insane and unhealthy for the game, and punishing to fans of those characters. We shouldn't actually do these things to Rosalina or Little Mac. Yet we do it to the Miis, and it's wrong there too.

Oh, because 'combo practice for top players.' Why is anyone so worried about ZeRo's meal ticket? ZeRo should worry about ZeRo's meal ticket. Nobody else should, except perhaps PRDisaster2King since they apparently live together. Let's quit insulting top players' intelligence by presuming they can't put in the time to practice against the more common variations of the Miis, and can't recognize size differences that the game makes pretty clear. Top players can adapt, or their claim as 'top players' is perhaps rather shaky.

Oh, because Pokemon. This is such a bizarre response I don't even know where to begin.

Oh, because a single stage in the Event Mode forces Miis on to 1111. We're now letting wacky single player challenge modes, built around forcing the player to cope with odd circumstances, dictate multiplayer design?

At this point I am angry and tired of compromising on an issue that is not a problem, demonstrably not a problem. I want to play the character I enjoy, in their proper form. I am upset that a ridiculous minority of players with some of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard have managed to frighten tournament organizers enough that the thing I enjoy has been effectively neutered to the point of not being worth playing.

The only 'compromise' I want to see at this point is that these complainers will stop, and let me have fun with something that does not hurt the game. We can have arguments about Fixed Size later, if it proves to actually be an issue (and so far it has not).

 

[GeneralLedge]

To be fair, we've seen 0/0 Brawler cause some issues; but I think that's more of a problem with how powerful grabbing is than the character's ability to exploit it.

Regardless, worst case should be to find the lowest size threshold where Brawler's nutso mobility doesn't exploit the game's grab mechanics, and go from there. Instead of go "Oh one size is broken, so ban everything ever for all time because I'm busy watching CSI and can't bother testing other sizes."

But we seem to love putting a cast on a scraped knee instead of just a bandaid.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Is 0/0 Brawler STILL a problem? We were all rather shocked at what we found. We were shocked by WindKong too at first. Eventually, after the shock wore off, we found solutions. Has anyone really bothered to try that with 0/0 Brawler? Picking stages other than Smashville, perhaps?

 

[wizrad]

0/0 Brawler is not broken. Even if OIP was still in, 0/0 Brawler would still not be broken. Could he make it to top 3? Perhaps, if he's explored more and it is discovered that his neutral isn't as bad as we thought. However, as things stand, there is no way any Brawler could be broken. There's no way he could be better than Sheik or Pikachu or Luigi or Rosalina or even Zamus. He's basically just a worse version of Luigi and ZSS anyways.