Not doing anything about mii

[blackghost]

Is 0/0 Brawler STILL a problem? We were all rather shocked at what we found. We were shocked by WindKong too at first. Eventually, after the shock wore off, we found solutions. Has anyone really bothered to try that with 0/0 Brawler? Picking stages other than Smashville, perhaps?

LOl people to this day STILL see windkong as OP (despite results not agreeing with them)
How long has Japan and Europe run miis fully available?

 

[Jiggly]

for simplicity sakes, I think it's best to keep to the guest miis, but allow any custom set. Its so easy to set up on the spot too. Making 3 miis across a bunch of different systems may prove a bother, so it may be best to stick to default size. I prefer 25/0 with mii gunner, but I understand if that can't happen.

 

[wizrad]

It doesn't matter if it's a bother, that has nothing to do with competitiveness and everything to do with laziness. Importing a Mii from a 3DS is as fast or faster than making one from a guest and it allows Miis to be competitive without arbitrary and unwarranted restrictions. Until there is a valid reason to ban Mii sizes, there is no reason to do so. Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[san.]

I play both Swordfighter and Gunner with multiple sets each, so it will be faster for me to transfer.

 

[wizrad]

Also, for those who want Brawler banned because he can combo into a kill at 40%, watch CEO's grand finals. Immediately after the match begins, Nairo almost kills ZeRo at 26% with the same basic combo as Brawler, with ZeRo only surviving because he got lucky and fell out of the up B. ZSS, a character that is a better version of Brawler in probably every area, can kill earlier. And yet, no one wants her banned. Why is that? Oh right, I forgot, because "Miis aren't real characters" and Samus without her armor is.

ZSS d-throw > up air > up air > up B kills at 26%
Brawler d-throw > fair > fair > up B kills at 40%

Which is more ridiculous?

 

[Rashyboy05]

Also, for those who want Brawler banned because he can combo into a kill at 40%, watch CEO's grand finals. Immediately after the match begins, Nairo almost kills ZeRo at 26% with the same basic combo as Brawler, with ZeRo only surviving because he got lucky and fell out of the up B. ZSS, a character that is a better version of Brawler in probably every area, can kill earlier. And yet, no one wants her banned. Why is that? Oh right, I forgot, because "Miis aren't real characters" and Samus without her armor is.

ZSS d-throw > up air > up air > up B kills at 26%
Brawler d-throw > fair > fair > up B kills at 40%

Which is more ridiculous?

Not to sound like a Zamus hater but doesn't she have combos with her Down-B that can potentially lead to a spike that can kill even earlier? I remember Nairo pulling one on Fatality at Smashcon.

 

[wizrad]

Probably. Personally, I have no problem with ZSS. Wanna know how to not get killed super early? Play better than your opponent. I know, I know, that totally goes against the idea of competitiveness, but ZSS is not a Mii, so we can't ban her just because we don't like her.

 

[NegaNixx]

Not to sound like a Zamus hater but doesn't she have combos with her Down-B that can potentially lead to a spike that can kill even earlier? I remember Nairo pulling one on Fatality at Smashcon.

There was also Nair -> D-Smash -> Down B Spike on Mr. R

It started at 8 Percent.

Nair to Down B spike is true on most of the cast from 50% to 75% (Based on Pit)

Up-Air to Up B strings start as early as 25%.

This character is super volatile. Way more so than Brawler. And can confirm solidly into kill moves from around 10% to approximately 160%+ It's so stupid.

I love it!

Brawler is not on the level of ZSS, Shiek, Diddy, Luigi, Ness and Meta Knight (Maybe Fox though the percentage is higher, he does it really easily.) when it comes to confirming kills because the window is so much smaller.

Gunner and Swordfighter are solid, but not broken in any way and Brawler is probably high tier. Their viability is perfectly fair, their logistics are simple. Why are we alienating a part of our community? The Toggle says we're good to go. And all of our rules besides stage striking and suicide clause are based on toggles in the game. Why's this any different? Because people don't want to practice it against it and be beaten by something they refuse to learn.

That's uncompetitive and downright "scrubby" by definition.

I play baseball I can't just ban Knuckleballs because I don't like them. Gyro Balls, Slurve Balls are all things I've got to deal with because they're part of the game. Miis are also part of the game and the game finds a way for us to handle them with the Customs: Off Toggle. So we deal with them. That's how competition works.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

And all of our rules besides stage striking and suicide clause are based on toggles in the game. Why's this any different? Because people don't want to practice it against it and be beaten by something they refuse to learn.

No. That's not true.

They're worried about top players. Top players who spend 329765 hours a day training combos under a waterfall (running only the purest crystal water, imported straight from the sweat of Sakurai's brow and blessed in a shrine by Saints ZeRo, Ken, Hungrybox, etc. etc.), who will shrivel up and die if even the slightest more complexity and variety is added to the game they are the true saviors of.

Think of the top players. Do you want them to die? Do you? Why do you hate top players!? Their hearts and minds simply cannot take even the tiniest bit more strain. We must not do this to them. Do as ZeRo says. Ban the Miis or neuter them into uselessness.

Do it for Saint ZeRo.

 

[Quarium]

Life would be so much easier if Sakurai just didn't create Miis at all qq

That's a joke btw(it holds truth but it is still a joke), I think Miis should be allowed to use all of their moves And regular size. Can't be hard to just create a regular size default mii with each custom set already on every Wii U before the tourneys so a player can just choose them.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Can't be hard to just create a regular size default mii with each custom set already on every Wii U before the tourneys so a player can just choose them.

Workable, but more effort than really needs to be spent. There would be some merit in setting up the most common choices, mind you. Making sure each station has the 2 or 3 most common variations of Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner is actually a really good idea. It's helpful for people who don't own a 3DS, or forgot theirs. "Wait, I can't import my Uppercut/Onslaught/Helicopter Kick/Feint Kick Brawler" becomes a non-issue when we KNOW that's the most common Brawler loadout, overwhelmingly so, to the point that having it pre-made is practical and helpful.

Doing so for 'each custom set' is impractical. That's dozens of variations, possibly hundreds, for each Mii type on the wild guess someone might want them. Allowing 3DS Importing and on-site creation to suit the user's needs is far more practical for those cases.

Thus I advocate "identify a few common sets, pre-make those, then allow 3DS Import and on-site creation as needed to fill in the gaps."

 

[GeneralLedge]

I wonder if TOs are inclined to buy full bundles for character DLC, or just individual characters.

"Lloyd" would be a more interesting display name than "1133", if available.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I wonder if TOs are inclined to buy full bundles for character DLC, or just individual characters.

"Lloyd" would be a more interesting display name than "1133", if available.

I have a better idea. Let's not shift the cost for optional content to TOs. They should poll their community and ask the Mii players "Hey, do you guys want Lloyd and Black Knight and Inklings and so on available in your Mii costumes? ...You do? Okay, cool, are you guys willing to chip in $5 apiece to help me buy them for our tournament stations? If so, I'll let it rock. Otherwise you're using built-in, non-DLC costumes."

 

[Gawain]

I never really cared for the mii characters. I will continue not to care as long as they remain non time wasters. If that means leave them out then so be it. If not, whatever,as long as they don't waste time.

 

[blackghost]

I never really cared for the mii characters. I will continue not to care as long as they remain non time wasters. If that means leave them out then so be it. If not, whatever,as long as they don't waste time.

what does this even mean? this thread is about getting miis (deservedly) in ALL tournaments. not personal opions on the characters.

 

[Gawain]

what does this even mean? this thread is about getting miis (deservedly) in ALL tournaments. not personal opions on the characters.

Yeah, and that's how I see it. If they create a burden on TOs and players then they shouldn't be allowed. If it turns out that they do not then that's fine too.

I still think standardized miis is the only way to go ifthey go at all because of this.

 

[BlueBirdE]

If miis get access to their other moves its only fair that other characters do too.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Little Mac has access to his super armor and KO punch; Diddy has access to his banana; Sheik has access to her needles and bouncing fish; Rosalina has access to Luma.

What's the problem...?

 

[wizrad]

The problem is that those characters aren't Miis. If Miis were other, preexisting characters that had access to all of their specials with customs off, there would be no debate at all.

I agree with Gawain in the idea of standardization (which I've said multiple times) but I don't think we should ever go straight to banning a character just because it's convenient. 1111 guest would be better than that, but that's like choosing eating bugs over starving.

 

[Pazx]

Yeah, and that's how I see it. If they create a burden on TOs and players then they shouldn't be allowed. If it turns out that they do not then that's fine too.

I still think standardized miis is the only way to go ifthey go at all because of this.

I have good news: they don't create a burden on TOs or players (aside from having to learn a new matchup).

Edit: they don't need to be standardised either for this to be true.

 

[wizrad]

They don't, but standardization keeps them in line with the rest of the non-customs cast, and makes it so that no one can whine about how 'unfair' it is.

 

[ZarroTsu]

They're going to whine anyway.

 

[wizrad]

Yeah, but they'll seem more like children than grown competitors, so they'll be ignored and fade away slowly.

 

[Pazx]

They don't, but standardization keeps them in line with the rest of the non-customs cast, and makes it so that no one can whine about how 'unfair' it is.

You have to consider this: I don't care. You shouldn't either. Why would we cater the rules to (players you consider to be) whining children?

 

[wizrad]

I don't consider them children unless they whine when they have no reason to. Miis being able to change their specials mid-set is an advantage completely different from any other character's inherent advantages. Despite Miis moves not being customs, they are still parallel to customs, and giving three characters access to more moves than anyone else does seem legitimately unfair.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Hasn't proven to be unfair so far. If we're going to worry about 'fair', let us talk of banning Sheik first.

No, I am not serious about that. We shouldn't be banning them just yet. Even if Sheik is extremely anti-fun to go up against.

However, I am going to ask why we should be bothered to constrain the Miis in that way in the pursuit of 'fairness' when their unrestrained forms haven't been ruining tournaments left and right? Tell me what practical and real issue is generated by the Miis having their design level advantage operate properly? I am not interested in some hypothetical argument about 'fair'; the Miis are inherently unusual characters, and haven't been disruptive to tournaments so far. Why are we restricting them before they've proven to be a consistent problem?

 

[wizrad]

Don't get me wrong, having Shotput and Piston Punch handy for when I need them is nice, so I'm not personally against allowing Miis all of their customs. I just think that, to make a reasonable, universal ruleset, we need compromise. No one is going to cater to us other than ourselves, and the anti-Mii sides will always be against allowing us everything, so they'll ban us entirely. In the middle is allowing one, generally preferred moveset and size for each Mii.

 

[blackghost]

You have to consider this: I don't care. You shouldn't either. Why would we cater the rules to (players you consider to be) whining children?

First off you should be proud I can almost hear raven saying this.
back on topic thats a major concern i have with this community we cater to the players that whine the most not the players presenting reasoning and facts to back up argument. If a TO wants to put on a tournament all he has to do is ecide if the miis are standard size or not and let the mii players make thier miis whena match starts it literally takes the same amount of time as making a name. This isn't hard.

 

[Harlow]

I think Brawler 1122 is too broken to allow in the meta. I don't mind allowing just 1111, 2222, and 3333 though.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

"In a world of compromise, some don't." - H&K slogan.

"I'm sick of compromising with people who keep coming up with ridiculous arguments as to why their points matter. We tried compromising, and they neutrered the Miis into uselessness with 1111-only fixed size. They're driving off players like Dapuffster and more by doing this. They need to stop ruining harmless fun that doesn't compromise how tournaments play out." - Me.

At this point I am treating 'compromise', in the same sentence as 'Miis', to be a profanity. We'll talk about compromise when open-design, proper-functionality Miis are destroying the game. Which they aren't.

 

[Pazx]

I think Brawler 1122 is too broken to allow in the meta. I don't mind allowing just 1111, 2222, and 3333 though.

Something seems off...

 

[Rashyboy05]

I think Brawler 1122 is too broken to allow in the meta.

>1122 Brawler
>Too Broken
>No Mii Brawler of that set has even been Top 8 on a National yet
>Coming from a guy who mains Shiek
K den.

 

[wizrad]

No Mii Brawler of any set has made any impact on a national level. Puffster only tied for 13th at Evo.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I think Brawler 1122 is too broken to allow in the meta. I don't mind allowing just 1111, 2222, and 3333 though.

*scratches head*

You know the "22" on the end of that set is the 'problem area', right?

As in, "2222" is equally as 'broken'?

......

I request a ban on referring to Mii Fighter moves by their string of numbers. Nobody seems to know what they're talking about anymore.

 

[blackghost]

I think Brawler 1122 is too broken to allow in the meta. I don't mind allowing just 1111, 2222, and 3333 though.

wait you are actually serious? wheres your data to back up this insane claim? here's how you beat mii brawler; ready its super complex: dont. get. grabed. at. the. ledge. wow super hard.

 

[NegaNixx]

You all would be terrible politicians.

Why are you attacking the poor guy? He's wrong yeah, but still simply state that even with A-Grade level representation Mii-Brawler has barely made noise at a competition. You're not gonna win any long term argument that way, you're just gonna antagonise a part of the community that disagrees with you.

@ Harlow The Mii Brawler set in question, 1122 (and it's closely related set 2122) are not broken, I assume by posting that set you mean helicopter kick is broken, presumably because it can kill you early, 40% or something. While it's true it can kill you that early off a grab set up the effectiveness stops at around 75% (I believe) and after that Mii Brawler really struggles to kill, it's like the case of Melee Marth; He either kills you at 20% or kills you at 200% (hyperbole). Dapuffster (Top Mii Brawler Main) also placed outside of top 8 (tied for 13th) at EVO using one of those two set ups, and Dapuffster has proven himself to be exceptional at the game.

He doesn't kill from 40% till forever, only roughly a 40% gap, in which simply playing safe and passive can really screw him over. He has as Shiek your disadvantage state is great, Bouncing Fish away or N-Air out of the combo. Learn how to DI the move to maximize your longevity (I can't remember it off the top of my head). You'll see there are kinks in the armour.

This has been your relatively PC post of the night.

 

[wizrad]

You DI behind the Brawler to avoid HK.

 

[Harlow]

wait you are actually serious? wheres your data to back up this insane claim? here's how you beat mii brawler; ready its super complex: dont. get. grabed. at. the. ledge. wow super hard.

It just feels like a broken character to me, that comment was more a casual feeling than an opinion I care enough about to actually try to defend.

lmao is this how Smashboards normally acts? You guys need to settle yourselves down, sometimes people don't agree with your opinions on what rulesets should be used.

 

[wizrad]

Which is why we're having a debate in this thread. People don't agree, so we try to fix that with arguments. Arguments backed up by logical reasons, not "x is broken" without explaining.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

You all would be terrible politicians.

Thank you. I will take this as praise considering most of them are useless drains upon society, vastly overpaid for the 'work' they do to establish what amounts to corporatism.

Why are you attacking the poor guy? He's wrong yeah, but still simply state that even with A-Grade level representation Mii-Brawler has barely made noise at a competition. You're not gonna win any long term argument that way, you're just gonna antagonise a part of the community that disagrees with you.

Remaining absolutely patient becomes hard when you have to repeat the same points over and over and over and over and over and over. It becomes hard when people ignore demonstrable evidence ("equipment works on Miis in Customs off!" "No it doesn't, here is proof", then it comes back up again just days later, then again and again?). It becomes hard when people say 'broken' about a character that has no major wins to their name.

It becomes hard when a freaking Sheik player talks about other characters being 'broken.' That requires such an amazing amount of bad-faith that they deserve to be called out.

Mii players are getting angry because they're getting nowhere being nice. Offering calm points, producing verifiable evidence of how Miis actually work, looking at tournament results, cooperating with TOs to reduce logistical/time-using concerns... not a damn bit of it has mattered. We've gone from 'Mii Freedom' to 'Miis locked in to 1111-only 50-50ish size because that satisfies some whiny punk definition of fairness... or outright banned in some venues.' All this, from some of the most absurd justifications I've ever seen frightening TOs into following the will of a very whiny minority.

When a Sheik player comes in to throw fuel onto the fire, they shouldn't be surprised - nobody should - when the previously calm crowd decides to drag him in and let him feel the heat too.

I am done playing 'politics' over this.