Not doing anything about mii

[Dooms]

Each of the different types of Mii Fighters have 12 special moves to choose from and there are three for each type of special move like every other character. Also, just like every other character, they have a specific moveset that is preselected each time that you try to make a custom moveset for them, which means that they have defaults. Claiming that they don't have custom moves is strange when you can change which special moves they have like the others. Claiming that they don't have defaults is just as strange because every type of Mii Fighter starts with the same moveset. Therefore, you're trying to make exceptions for the Mii Fighters by modifying the definition of the words and it's also an equivocation fallacy.

"Custom moveset" isn't applicable to Mii Fighters unless you're adding equipment. The "alternate specials" are a part of custom fighters for other characters. That doesn't apply to Mii Fighters. They don't have custom moves because custom moves aren't allowed in custom off. They don't have a default because the default is defined by "custom off" on the CSS screen. The default (if any) is that they don't exist at all OR that they have access to all of their moves. Creating a default between these two things is simply creating extra rules to limit Mii Fighters.

This discussion is going in a circle. Feel free to respond if you want, but I probably won't be replying back.

 

[Pazx]

I don't even understand why people try to restrict Miis, do they just think it's "unfair" that they were designed differently or is everyone just terrified of the most overrated character in the game?

Edit: I'm not even trying to be inflammatory I just don't get it.

 

[Rhydstone]

Giving mii's their special moves would create no problems. They're not OP, at the most they're low or mid high tier. The only reason to restrict the moves is if you didn't want to learn the MU, but with that logic you could ban dlc for not wanting to learn the MU.

 

[Illuminose]

I don't really have any personal stake in this and what happens isn't a big deal either way, so I figured I might try to compromise so that we can actually deal with this issue. That said, there's one major issue with how Miis are currently set up: way too much overhead. TOs currently have to set up 51 Mii sets on their consoles. This includes having to set up a small Mii (with "1/4 height" which you can't even do exactly on 3DS, lol) to create sets for. This logistical issue, on top of the fact that there are issues with tiny Mii Brawler in terms of balance, leads me to the conclusion that the only Mii size which should be allowed is default. I don't like set imports being allowed because they disadvantage players without the 3DS version and create logistically annoying issues to enforce like the potential for equipment (including small bonuses that may not be necessarily noticed or understood but make a difference) and non-standardized sizes. Different sized Miis are fundamentally different characters in a lot of ways that I'm sure any Mii main knows and that's not not really something we can look at and tell on the spot. It should be easy for TOs, and players for that matter, to set up Miis on the consoles.

As far as sets are concerned, we're currently working with just way too many sets. Even limiting them to 10 sets each or something to that effect isn't enough. It's still a logistical pain for TOs to deal with. The 1111/2222/3333 compromise that was initially in the CEO ruleset is actually really convenient in this case. There's no subjective arguments to deal with, and all of the Miis are pretty much fine with these sets. Heck, Brawler basically gets his optimal set. The reason for these sets is that it's a simple list, making them easy to deal with logistically, and allows Miis certain customization options without going overkill in terms of allowing set imports and having to discuss/implement a certain amount of sets.

It's a practically applicable solution for logistics and Mii mains. Unless you really want to sit here arguing on principle (which is a waste of time), I don't know what else there would be to complain about.

 

[san.]

Addressing the logistical issue:

Transferring: Doesn't matter if it's 1 or 100, you can batch transfer all miis at once. That will take around a minute or two for a single system. Mii traits are linear. 24/0 and 26/0 are essentially identical.

System: it's asinine to manually create each set per system. A system only needs a 0/0 25/0 and 50/0 Mii on the system appropriately named. It takes a minute to create them, hardly any more overhead than creating a new name. That is many times less work than what people are speaking about. The 2 players playing mii at each national may now negligibly increase tournament times.

Source: I created at least 30 miis and know how long they take.


Mii traits:

Weight difference is 6 at most and kill % are only a few% apart.

Only end lag and dodges are changed for attacks.

Mii traits are linear as size shrinks. Slow moves lose more lag than fast moves.

Safety on shield differs by a few frames at most from default to tiny.

All specials have the same frame data.

Startup is the same.

Movement ratios stay intact and are just multiplied as the mii shrinks. Swordfighter air speed will always be lacking for instance.

 

[clydeaker]

We of the smash 4 competitive community are much better than this. I know that for a fact. So i'm asking this forum a simple question, why are we still not doing anything to legalize miis?

I have an obvious solution.
Let the game decide to an extent.
Since miis are allowed without customs on or off and still retain their custom moves, they must be allowed. To truly have a custom fight with a mii according to the game, would be to fight a mii with equipment.
So for my solution, Miis should be universal allowed in custom or non custom tournaments but with no equipment, and be fully customizable in size and attire.
These sizes should fall into three main categories based on frame data:
Tiny
Medium
Large
And this does not require the mii to be absolutely like the size, but must fall into one category.

Ex: A skinny medium mii

Lastly, the importing of homemade miis can easily be done by importing fighters by 3DS or even a qr code. If someone wanted to simply add a mii to a tourament, he or she could send a message to the TO or just even add it via mii maker.
After that, mii fighter creation would be as good as done.

(However for time constraints
one might not choose a costume.)

I think when EVO allowed custom moves in their rule set Mii Fighters were more widely accepted because they could use customs.

Here are some of the problems I can think of that make Mii Fighters seem unfair, illegitimate, and illegal.

Banning customs: Mii's by default get to choose their custom moves. from the point of view of a non Mii main this seems unfair if Mii Fighters get to use customs and you don't. also from the point of view of a DLC character main Mii fighters customs seem extremely unfair because DLC characters don't have custom special moves.

They take too long to set up: unless everyone has their own 3DS handy to transfer you Mii's you will need to ether spend quite a bit of time setting your Mii up or be forced to use one of the default Mii fighters. Although this argument is kind of silly in small local tournaments, in big tournaments this is a legitimate issue. This won't seem fair to a Mii Fighter main that practices with a non default height and weight.

Over all the massive amount of customizations you can apply to Mii Fighters Physically and Visually scares away the community. We ether think the Mii fighters need to be simplified into specific custom sets's like at EVO or they need to be banned. That's the biggest issue affecting Mii fighters right now.

 

[Illuminose]

It's not the transfer time, it's the fact that you have to set up a 3DS system with all of those Mii sets, which does take a long time (source: I set up all of the EVO sets on my 3DS and transferred them to my Wii U) and then transfer them to your consoles. Setting up the sets alone takes a while, and then you have to spend a whole bunch of time transferring them to each of your consoles. It's not a big issue at small locals, but for big tournaments where you're working with 100+ setups (just throwing out a number) it's a huge pain. A long amount of time spent that isn't worth it. Same goes for creating different sized Miis. Say that it takes 2 minutes per console to set up the Miis (reasonable number). Multiply that by 100 consoles and it takes 3h 20m to create the Miis for all of your consoles. Multiply that by 150 consoles and it takes 5h to do so. This is disregarding the actual time to turn on each setup, etc., which would make this time in actuality a lot longer. It's a non-trivial amount of time and it only serves to benefit the...5 Mii mains showing up to your tournament. Now compare this to creating 9 default Mii sets on a 3DS and transferring them to each of your consoles. It's blatantly more easy logistically and allows Mii players to pick up their character and play without having to set them up on each individual console that they play on. Let's say, worst case scenario, there are a few setups without the Miis set up (like what happened with some setups for customs at EVO). Now you don't have to exit the game and create the Mii, then set it up on the system. I remember watching Blue doing this on stream a couple times at Smash Attack with Mii Gunner and it's pretty ridiculous how much time it takes to do so.

Other thing about a simple, set in stone list of sets: it allows players to create the Miis on their consoles and practice with their options aka knowing what they might run into. The other advantage to a blanket 1111/2222/3333, outside of simplicity and working out fine for Miis, is that it's no longer something we need to worry about. We don't have to change/add sets as the Mii metagame evolves, we don't have to worry about changing Mii sizes as the player understanding of them evolves. It's a list of sets that covers the metagame forever, theoretically, while allowing players to prepare for the specific sets that they're going to face and being an acceptable deal for Mii mains (at least to my knowledge/from the research I've done on this topic).

 

[san.]

It's not the transfer time, it's the fact that you have to set up a 3DS system with all of those Mii sets, which does take a long time (source: I set up all of the EVO sets on my 3DS and transferred them to my Wii U) and then transfer them to your consoles. Setting up the sets alone takes a while, and then you have to spend a whole bunch of time transferring them to each of your consoles. It's not a big issue at small locals, but for big tournaments where you're working with 100+ setups (just throwing out a number) it's a huge pain. A long amount of time spent that isn't worth it. Same goes for creating different sized Miis. Say that it takes 2 minutes per console to set up the Miis (reasonable number). Multiply that by 100 consoles and it takes 3h 20m to create the Miis for all of your consoles. Multiply that by 150 consoles and it takes 5h to do so. This is disregarding the actual time to turn on each setup, etc., which would make this time in actuality a lot longer. It's a non-trivial amount of time and it only serves to benefit the...5 Mii mains showing up to your tournament. Now compare this to creating 9 default Mii sets on a 3DS and transferring them to each of your consoles. It's blatantly more easy logistically and allows Mii players to pick up their character and play without having to set them up on each individual console that they play on. Let's say, worst case scenario, there are a few setups without the Miis set up (like what happened with some setups for customs at EVO). Now you don't have to exit the game and create the Mii, then set it up on the system. I remember watching Blue doing this on stream a couple times at Smash Attack with Mii Gunner and it's pretty ridiculous how much time it takes to do so.

That's understandable. I think we just had a different set of ideas on how we thought of the problem.

From my perspective, I was thinking of different Mii players:

-Has 3DS and can transfer
-Doesn't have 3DS, but there happens to be a Mii on the system that can be used
-Doesn't have a 3DS, but there are no Miis that fit.

I was thinking that the first 2 are fine, and the third requires finding a 3DS to transfer which can be solved if any 3DS in the entire building can be loaned/called upon from the TO desk. This issue to me didn't seem to be based on the size of the tournament, but rather the amount of requests that can happen at one time. If the mii size is already on the Wii U or the Mii is already ready on the 3DS, it only takes a few minutes at most, unless they want to type a name and gear and stuff.

From what I'm gathering from your perspective is to make all setups "Mii-ready" by the start of the tournament. This method is likely required at nationals for customs since the number of requests would be astronomical otherwise, but I don't think this method is needed for Miis at all really. At worst, the Mii would need to use default size, and that's a pretty nice worst-case scenario. This is a problem with customs-integration at tournaments, not Miis. Making 20+ mii sets is unnecessary (needed for Evo because of all of the extra restrictions at that type of place).

Other thing about a simple, set in stone list of sets: it allows players to create the Miis on their consoles and practice with their options aka knowing what they might run into.

Let's say someone likes 1221, 3113, and 2332 as sets. Once you are comfortable fighting each special individually, you'll likely be ready for sets like 1111, 2222, and 3333 as well. Sometimes people might have 1 special slightly different than the norm, and I see nothing wrong with that.

The other advantage to a blanket 1111/2222/3333, outside of simplicity and working out fine for Miis, is that it's no longer something we need to worry about.

It's tedious for me since in addition to the sets I'm used to, I now have to create 1111, 2222, and 3333 versions on top of all of the others. I have to practice almost twice the amount of sizes and special cases, since I would go from customs-on in my local region to 1111/2222/3333 at any sizable event, when I could easily just transfer sets I'm used to.

We don't have to change/add sets as the Mii metagame evolves, we don't have to worry about changing Mii sizes as the player understanding of them evolves.


It's a list of sets that covers the metagame forever, theoretically, while allowing players to prepare for the specific sets that they're going to face and being an acceptable deal for Mii mains (at least to my knowledge/from the research I've done on this topic)

We won't have to worry as much since the evolution is decreased as options are decreased. Fun for everyone except the people playing them.

 

[Auramaniji]

I think when EVO allowed custom moves in their rule set Mii Fighters were more widely accepted because they could use customs.

Here are some of the problems I can think of that make Mii Fighters seem unfair, illegitimate, and illegal.

Banning customs: Mii's by default get to choose their custom moves. from the point of view of a non Mii main this seems unfair if Mii Fighters get to use customs and you don't. also from the point of view of a DLC character main Mii fighters customs seem extremely unfair because DLC characters don't have custom special moves.

They take too long to set up: unless everyone has their own 3DS handy to transfer you Mii's you will need to ether spend quite a bit of time setting your Mii up or be forced to use one of the default Mii fighters. Although this argument is kind of silly in small local tournaments, in big tournaments this is a legitimate issue. This won't seem fair to a Mii Fighter main that practices with a non default height and weight.

Over all the massive amount of customizations you can apply to Mii Fighters Physically and Visually scares away the community. We ether think the Mii fighters need to be simplified into specific custom sets's like at EVO or they need to be banned. That's the biggest issue affecting Mii fighters right now.

1. DLC
DLC characters don't have customs, but are also NOT vanilla characters.
They were sold to us without customs, although nintendo planed to make customs for DLC characters at a point and time.

Moreover, some people out there in the near future won't have all the DLC due to the price tag of each fighter stacking up. We have 4 DLC fighters worth about 31.95 USD in bundled packs, about 15.00 USD for each fighter separately (keep in mind that this not include wii&3ds packs). Therefore, Mii is easier to access than a DLC character because he is in the vanilla version of the game.

However, I see why it is unfair to you because you have no customs but customs are NOT an advantage. You can still play an awful game with hammer spin dash and lose to a non-customs player.

2. Set up ahead of time.

I for one also agree that major touraments could have a problem setting up miis, but that could be easily fixed. Taking notes from the swordfighter fourm on legality, simply set up beforehand on what mii you are going to bring to the touranment. TOs can easily set up an inbox for mii QR codes, and making sure beforehand that each QR code is scanned into the wii u ahead of time. So when the tourament starts, each mii is there and ready to use. If any mii is found inappropriate, it will result in a DQ on the spot.

3. Size
I understand why this scares many people away from mii entirely. I remember a post on smashboards which gave a fair amount of detail describing why Miis should be banned due to size which I will link at the bottom of this post. Size is nothing to worry about unless in extremes.

It's not the transfer time, it's the fact that you have to set up a 3DS system with all of those Mii sets, which does take a long time (source: I set up all of the EVO sets on my 3DS and transferred them to my Wii U) and then transfer them to your consoles. Setting up the sets alone takes a while, and then you have to spend a whole bunch of time transferring them to each of your consoles. It's not a big issue at small locals, but for big tournaments where you're working with 100+ setups (just throwing out a number) it's a huge pain. A long amount of time spent that isn't worth it. Same goes for creating different sized Miis. Say that it takes 2 minutes per console to set up the Miis (reasonable number). Multiply that by 100 consoles and it takes 3h 20m to create the Miis for all of your consoles. Multiply that by 150 consoles and it takes 5h to do so. This is disregarding the actual time to turn on each setup, etc., which would make this time in actuality a lot longer. It's a non-trivial amount of time and it only serves to benefit the...5 Mii mains showing up to your tournament. Now compare this to creating 9 default Mii sets on a 3DS and transferring them to each of your consoles. It's blatantly more easy logistically and allows Mii players to pick up their character and play without having to set them up on each individual console that they play on. Let's say, worst case scenario, there are a few setups without the Miis set up (like what happened with some setups for customs at EVO). Now you don't have to exit the game and create the Mii, then set it up on the system. I remember watching Blue doing this on stream a couple times at Smash Attack with Mii Gunner and it's pretty ridiculous how much time it takes to do so.

Other thing about a simple, set in stone list of sets: it allows players to create the Miis on their consoles and practice with their options aka knowing what they might run into. The other advantage to a blanket 1111/2222/3333, outside of simplicity and working out fine for Miis, is that it's no longer something we need to worry about. We don't have to change/add sets as the Mii metagame evolves, we don't have to worry about changing Mii sizes as the player understanding of them evolves. It's a list of sets that covers the metagame forever, theoretically, while allowing players to prepare for the specific sets that they're going to face and being an acceptable deal for Mii mains (at least to my knowledge/from the research I've done on this topic).

I see your point on time, but I have yet to explain my frustration when dealing with your arguments.

Not letting a character grow this the most underwhelming thing smash 4 has to offer, and sure the meta may hold stable ground during this transition into a mii-less environment free of potential outcomes. Speaking for the future, allowing a handful of mii fighters today, could possibly increase the number of possible mii mains tommorrow. As a result the meta develops, and each custom is known throughout each match up.

Also, your points on transfer are very deeply flawed. If your saying that it takes 2 minutes to transfer a mii, and then go off on a tangent to say that making nine default Mii's will help solve these times.
You don't have to set up your EVO mii on the spot, nor a homemade one. Just simply transfer it over on 3DS, setting it up on your 3DS BEFORE the event begins. In the case of a failed set up or even not having a set up at all, just DQ. If they fail to add the mii in for the system, simply scan a QR of that mii into the game using mii maker. If they take longer than 3 minutes to add their code, DQ.
I know the load times are killer when dealing with the transition between mii maker and smash, but that's the only way I can find an acceptable ruling.

 

[Illuminose]

There are practical issues with set transfers, though. For one, players who don't have a 3DS can't transfer sets which is disadvantaging players who only have the Wii U version. Getting a 3DS from someone to transfer sets isn't really a practical solution. There are also potential set legality issues as far as equipment is concerned. Going out of the game to set up Miis is just a big no in general. It takes longer than the 3 minutes you stated @ Auramaniji to get out of Smash, into the Mii Maker, load a QR code, and then back into Smash. It's a much more eloquent and easy solution to have presets on the console so that we don't end up with DQs and/or uncomfortable players who are stuck playing the default size. I'm not really contradicting either when I'm talking about transfer times. It takes objectively less time to transfer/set up 9 sets than 51 sets. There's a major time difference that is pretty obvious in my opinion.

Perhaps I stated the idea with preventing evolution incorrectly. All I mean is that we have the characters set in stone so that we don't potentially need to change presets for the future, so TOs and players can set up their consoles and be set.

@ san. I don't consider having to practice different versions for customs on and customs off a particular issue. Kirby mains, Palutena mains, etc have to do the exact same thing and they have to deal with it.

 

[san.]

@ san. I don't consider having to practice different versions for customs on and customs off a particular issue. Kirby mains, Palutena mains, etc have to do the exact same thing and they have to deal with it.

The argument is logistics, but your proposal makes things twice has difficult logistically for me. That doesn't make much sense. I already mastered all the sizes needed since I flippin spent months training the character lol.

 

[Illuminose]

The alternative I have in mind for that is allotting a specific low amount of sets, like 4 sets + 1111, for each Mii (default size). I'm interested, is that something that the Mii boards can feasibly come up with? I know that this is fine for Brawler and Swordfighter although I admittedly don't really know about Gunner (can't imagine that it wouldn't work out fine though). The only reason I didn't propose this immediately was because I honestly doubted the ability of people to agree on a low amount of sets for each Mii, but it seems more practical when I think about it.

 

[Auramaniji]

The alternative I have in mind for that is allotting a specific low amount of sets, like 4 sets + 1111, for each Mii (default size). I'm interested, is that something that the Mii boards can feasibly come up with? I know that this is fine for Brawler and Swordfighter although I admittedly don't really know about Gunner (can't imagine that it wouldn't work out fine though). The only reason I didn't propose this immediately was because I honestly doubted the ability of people to agree on a low amount of sets for each Mii, but it seems more practical when I think about it.

I completely understand that somebody like you from massive inexperience of the game than I am is an inept suggestion.
I completely understand that you are dodging some of our comments.
But I don't understand why you aren't trying to understand that the set you want us to be isn't going to work.
Actually try out mii's 1111, start up the wii u/3ds and create a Mii brawler, Gunner, and leave it there. Now go to anther's ladder with that same Miis and tell me otherwise.

 

[Illuminose]

rofl dodging comments. I'm trying to avoid a circular argument. Literally all I'm trying to do is create a logistically sound compromise that doesn't involve set transfers due to the reasons I've stated. The post I just made says 4 sets, as in whatever combination you want, in addition to the 1111. I'm not trying to restrict Miis to 1111 and it's kinda annoying that you keep misreading my posts/ignoring my points :/ Being abrasive doesn't get you anywhere if you actually want to have a discussion.

 

[Auramaniji]

rofl dodging comments. I'm trying to avoid a circular argument. Literally all I'm trying to do is create a logistically sound compromise that doesn't involve set transfers due to the reasons I've stated. The post I just made says 4 sets, as in whatever combination you want, in addition to the 1111. I'm not trying to restrict Miis to 1111 and it's kinda annoying that you keep misreading my posts/ignoring my points :/ Being abrasive doesn't get you anywhere if you actually want to have a discussion.

Alright I see your points, that sounds pretty good to me. I just jump to conclusions when dealing with 1111.

 

[Auramaniji]

(Excuse me for double posting.)

here are practical issues with set transfers, though. For one, players who don't have a 3DS can't transfer sets which is disadvantaging players who only have the Wii U version. Getting a 3DS from someone to transfer sets isn't really a practical solution. There are also potential set legality issues as far as equipment is concerned. Going out of the game to set up Miis is just a big no in general. It takes longer than the 3 minutes you stated @ Auramaniji to get out of Smash, into the Mii Maker, load a QR code, and then back into Smash. It's a much more eloquent and easy solution to have presets on the console so that we don't end up with DQs and/or uncomfortable players who are stuck playing the default size. I'm not really contradicting either when I'm talking about transfer times. It takes objectively less time to transfer/set up 9 sets than 51 sets. There's a major time difference that is pretty obvious in my opinion.
Perhaps I stated the idea with preventing evolution incorrectly. All I mean is that we have the characters set in stone so that we don't potentially need to change presets for the future, so TOs and players can set up their consoles and be set.

I'd like to say that having 9 nine sets would be a great option for large scale tournaments. It would be easier for TO's to easily add Miis onto a console unlike my QR method above. However you are repeating what you said before with allowing Miis to evolve, because having a set already in stone is great but does not give a chance of another legal set.

Also on equipment and 3DS transfers. (And transfers in general)
We have nothing to hide in terms of equipment transfer from the 3DS version. Like I said from my starting post from above, you can easily disable equipment by turning customs OFF. (This as a result turns equipment off)
Players that do not have a 3DS are at general disadvantage from what you said, and I couldn't agree more.
In my in opinion, players should be able to access both 3DS transfers and default sets so they can have two options when selecting a Mii. Just in case the 3DS transfer somehow fails, they have default sets to fall on.

Alright I see your points, that sounds pretty good to me. I just jump to conclusions when dealing with 1111.

Excuse me for that, I wasn't thinking straight.

 

[tecmo]

Oh god this again. Lots of low tier characters would love to have their customs (DK palutena Ganondorf etc.) But in customs off tournaments they can only use 1111. What makes the mii fighters so special that they should get customs but not other low tiers.

 

[John12346]

Oh god this again. Lots of low tier characters would love to have their customs (DK palutena Ganondorf etc.) But in customs off tournaments they can only use 1111. What makes the mii fighters so special that they should get customs but not other low tiers.

I guess it's been said a lot of times, but no one ever really said it in a short, concise way, so check this out:

The reason we consider Miis eligible for using their alternate specials in a customs off format isn't to increase their viability, but rather because the game allows you to pick those alternate specials even if the ingame Customization setting is set to "Off." Even their Equipment gets disabled if they have it, but the specials are left untouched.

 

[tecmo]

I guess it's been said a lot of times, but no one ever said it in a short, concise way, so check this out:

The reason we consider Miis eligible for using their alternate specials in a customs off format isn't to increase their viability, but rather because the game allows you to pick those alternate specials even if the ingame Customization setting is set to "Off." Even Equipment gets disabled if they have it, but the specials are left untouched.

Funny, the stage select screen lists both pac land and 75m as stages does that mean they should be tournament legal? Just because the game lists something as an option doesn't mean tournaments have to use it. In customs off tourneys every other character is restricted to use of 1,1,1,1 specials so I don't think mii fighters should get to essentially ignore this rule

 

[Jigglymaster]

Funny, the stage select screen lists both pac land and 75m as stages does that mean they should be tournament legal? Just because the game lists something as an option doesn't mean tournaments have to use it. In customs off tourneys every other character is restricted to use of 1,1,1,1 specials so I don't think mii fighters should get to essentially ignore this rule

You act like competitive players want to play on Pac land and 75m. Its unanimous when we don't want to play on those stages. However, with the Mii Fighters, there are some of us that like to have access to our main character when the game allows us to have it.

Did you know I went to EVO with Testicular Cancer because it was my only chance to play my main character in a national? Did you know Im retiring because no tournaments are allowing me to play with my main when they CAN be played with Customs OFF?

Do you even give a ****?

I think you don't.

 

[Unknownkid]

Oh god this again. Lots of low tier characters would love to have their customs (DK palutena Ganondorf etc.) But in customs off tournaments they can only use 1111. What makes the mii fighters so special that they should get customs but not other low tiers.

No one wants to go and unlock them. It is too hard, too time-consuming, and too janky man. You have to think about the logistical that TO have to go through and our newcomers. Not everyone is going to purchase a $10 turbo controller and use the ganon method to get customs. Sudden a hassle. They rather pay $30 for DLC characters and stages then call it a day.

With Mii Fighter, their special moves are already unlock. You can practice with and against them. So does Palutena. Personally, I believe we should allow both Palutena and Mii Fighter with their alternative moves since they are unlocked from the start. No DLC characters and stages though. They are logistical hassle for our TOs and newcomers.

 

[tecmo]

You act like competitive players want to play on Pac land and 75m. Its unanimous when we don't want to play on those stages. However, with the Mii Fighters, there are some of us that like to have access to our main character when the game allows us to have it.

Did you know I went to EVO with Testicular Cancer because it was my only chance to play my main character in a national? Did you know Im retiring because no tournaments are allowing me to play with my main when they CAN be played with Customs OFF?

Do you even give a ****?

I think you don't.

I'm sorry you are sick, but that doesn't mean that mii fighters should get a pass to ignore a ruling that affects the entire cast, nor does the games toggle imo.

 

[Auramaniji]

I'm sorry you are sick, but that doesn't mean that mii fighters should get a pass to ignore a ruling that affects the entire cast, nor does the games toggle imo.

Sure it will the entire cast, let alone the meta. People like you will learn our matchup, and learn that we aren't as powerful as you think we are.

This is no pass. This is a rekindling of what you once ignored, coming alive again. Nor is it something you should give a complex answer for, just come clean and say why mii should be back in his grave. Give me a reason but don't cry me a river.

 

[tecmo]

No one wants to go and unlock them. It is too hard, too time-consuming, and too janky man. You have to think about the logistical that TO have to go through and our newcomers. Not everyone is going to purchase a $10 turbo controller and use the ganon method to get customs. Sudden a hassle. They rather pay $30 for DLC characters and stages then call it a day.

With Mii Fighter, their special moves are already unlock. You can practice with and against them. So does Palutena. Personally, I believe we should allow both Palutena and Mii Fighter with their alternative moves since they are unlocked from the start. No DLC characters and stages though. They are logistical hassle for our TOs and newcomers.

That is only part of the reason why most TOs prefer customs off. As I understand it a lot of TOs and top players believe that customs lead to degenerative, campy play (villedger etc) which not only boring to watch but make matches take much longer. While I disagree with this and believe that customs on makes smash 4 more interesting to watch and play, this is about customs off tournaments and with that being the premise how can we give the mii fighters their customs and not DK Gannon and friends? It's not right.

 

[Auramaniji]

That is only part of the reason why most TOs prefer customs off. As I understand it a lot of TOs and top players believe that customs lead to degenerative, campy play (villedger etc) which not only boring to watch but make matches take much longer. While I disagree with this and believe that customs on makes smash 4 more interesting to watch and play, this is about customs off tournaments and with that being the premise how can we give the mii fighters their customs and not DK Gannon and friends? It's not right.

Mii Fighters came with customs in vanilla, you can easily create a mii fighter in seconds and unlock all customs easily. Rather, DK and friends must unlock their customs in various single player modes.

Moreover, DK and low tier company do not have unqiue customs for each special, they play the same animations throughout each special they are based on. Mii on the other hand has more focus into his customs with each one being much different than the other. (Much like Palutena's customs)

To cement this, the customs off button proves that mii can still be allowed to fight. Proving that mii has no default set to rely on, also at the same time saying 1111 is not a default set and is completely custom. If mii was 1111 with customs off if you made a different set (3233), this would be legal.

 

[Doruge]

When customs are off, Mii moves become the only "customs" that are relevant. Palutena, Ganon, etc.? Their customs don't even EXIST under this setting. Trying to ban Mii moves because they're "unfair to characters with good customs" is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Jigglymaster]

While I disagree with this and believe that customs on makes smash 4 more interesting to watch and play, this is about customs off tournaments and with that being the premise how can we give the mii fighters their customs and not DK Gannon and friends? It's not right.

Why does everyone believe that the "if I don't get it what I want, then nobody should!" Mentality is such a good thing? Like listen to yourself and how selfish that sounds.

You have the chance to allow some players to play the game how they love to play it yet because "it's not fair" to the other characters, you deny people things that they need.

Shouldn't we try to make as many people as happy as possible?

If most people are happy with customs on, then that is what we will use. If most people are happy with customs off, then that is what we will use. If more people can become happy by allowing the mii fighters to use their other specials WHEN THE GAME ALLOWS IT, THEN WHY NOT?

What are we supposed to do? Like christ, just because you can't play custom DK doesn't mean that I shouldn't be allowed to play 2122 Mii Brawler when the game lets me choose my character but not let you choose yours.

Oh, I can't play mii Brawler, I guess nobody else should be allowed to play their main characters.

I declare that we ban everyone from playing their mains because im a selfish human being..

 

[John12346]

A good way to think about it tecmo, consider this: Mii Fighters being able to pick and choose which specials they want are what makes them special as characters. Think about how past Smash characters got multiple characters for the price of one(Zelda, Pokémon Trainer, Ice Climbers), or how Rosalina has a little helper to get her out of trouble, or how Shulk can modify his attributes on the fly ingame. Heck, there's even a precedent behind characters being able to pick and choose their moveset before the game even begins(Melee Zelda, Brawl Samus). Pretty sweet, eh? But yeah, I do believe that Miis being able able to outfit themselves the way they want is just a little something that makes them unique as characters, in similar ways to the ones I mentioned previously. It's definitely not a matter of special treatment, I can assure you.

Also holy **** Jigglymaster, I'm really sorry about your illness.

 

[T0MMY]

The argument set forth by @ Illuminose and others in favor of a limit/ban on Mii fighters is generally derived from one of two statements:
Mii should be limited (in both moves and/or height/weight change) because:

• Logistics
  
• Fairness

This is sourced in the spoiler collapsed below:

Spoiler

Logistics:

It's not the transfer time, it's the fact that you have to set up a 3DS system with all of those Mii sets, which does take a long time (source: I set up all of the EVO sets on my 3DS and transferred them to my Wii U) and then transfer them to your consoles.

Fairness:

What makes the mii fighters so special that they should get customs but not other low tiers.

Other thing about a simple, set in stone list of sets: it allows players to create the Miis on their consoles and practice with their options aka knowing what they might run into.

The Logistic premise is a valid argument (creating sets of Mii fighters to be used does take time to do (both in the creation and the upload process).

However, there is a simple solution to this:

- Require all special Mii designs to be uploaded with a 3DS by the competitor when needed; giving competitors a set time to do all customizations like button mapping, name tags, etc. would be suggested.
- Additionally, have a guest Mii provided on each setup as a complimentary option.*​

The Fairness premise is not a valid argument.
The reason this is not valid is because this is attempting to use the fairness principal as rationale to initiate a ban. The fairness principal applies to players, not characters.
Why?
Because any player has the option to choose any character - it is completely fair to have a character with advantages! Any player can use them! (remember to git gud)

Players who decry the fairness principal are most likely mistaking their argument with an argument of balance (see below).

Game Balance
Game balance is NOT reason to make rules changes unless there is some element that could be tweaked in order to make an otherwise competitive game viable (think Akuma soft ban) - competitive philosophy.

Game balance for the game designers (Sakurai et al) and it is NOT the job of us competitors/TO's to balance the game unless:

1. It is warranted.
2. The developers are not undertaking the balancing work.

Melee has been a strong competitive game for well over a decade despite its obvious balance issues (Fox only, Final Destination). SSB4 has a team of developers who are balancing the game in patches - there is absolutely no reasonable way to use this as an excuse for applying out-of-game rulings.

*(Guest Mii is an average height/weight Mii with a 1111 special move selection) - this is a complementary character, not to be an attempt to create an optimal character).

 

[BlueTerrorist]

I don't see the problem here. Miis are able to use any of their specials even in customs off. That is their gimmick, that is what they are made to do. There is absolutely no reason at all to limit Miis let alone ban them. Let the Miis be used in their full potential.

 

[Auramaniji]

As of right now miis are able to enter online tournaments...and have their own toggle.

Sakurai has brought mii back to life.
Edit: If that wasn't enough, 1111 isn't default when entering non custom tournaments.

 

[tecmo]

As of right now miis are able to enter online tournaments...and have their own toggle.

Sakurai has brought mii back to life.
Edit: If that wasn't enough, 1111 isn't default when entering non custom tournaments.

Right so were using a mode you can only create FFA tournaments on as a way to decide competitive rulesets? seems legit.

 

[Auramaniji]

Right so were using a mode you can only create FFA tournaments on as a way to decide competitive rulesets? seems legit.

Yes I am. Just because the mode allows users to create FFA tournaments doesn't mean we should discount everything it has to offer us.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Right so were using a mode you can only create FFA tournaments on as a way to decide competitive rulesets? seems legit.

Incorrect, there is an option for regular tournaments created by nintendo themselves and not by the players. The same rules apply there and there are tournaments that ban customs but allow mii fighters with all of their specials. To treat mii fighter's special moves as customs is now 100% false according to the game.

 

[tecmo]

Incorrect, there is an option for regular tournaments created by nintendo themselves and not by the players. The same rules apply there and there are tournaments that ban customs but allow mii fighters with all of their specials. To treat mii fighter's special moves as customs is now 100% false according to the game.

Again tournament mode is not the way we should be deciding competitive rulesets. Even if you get into one of those it's always 3 minute timer and sudden death on and no other stages besides FD. That's still not competitive imo.

Ultimately I feel that the way nintendo classifies the Miis and their customs shouldn't affect the decision at all. If we played the way nintendo intended us to, we'd be playing with all items timed FFAs in our friends houses, rather than at competitive tournaments

 

[LimitCrown]

Incorrect, there is an option for regular tournaments created by nintendo themselves and not by the players. The same rules apply there and there are tournaments that ban customs but allow mii fighters with all of their specials. To treat mii fighter's special moves as customs is now 100% false according to the game.

The tournaments in Tourney mode don't ban stages like the ones made by other people. It is also possible to prevent the Mii Fighters from being selected, which is something that you can't do in the regular Smash mode. Also, how does Tourney mode prove that the Mii Fighters don't have defaults or custom moves? Those statements are still completely false.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Again tournament mode is not the way we should be deciding competitive rulesets. Even if you get into one of those it's always 3 minute timer and sudden death on and no other stages besides FD. That's still not competitive imo.

Ultimately I feel that the way nintendo classifies the Miis and their customs shouldn't affect the decision at all. If we played the way nintendo intended us to, we'd be playing with all items timed FFAs in our friends houses, rather than at competitive tournaments

There is a legit reason behind the 3 minute timer. It's because nintendo wants the games to run fast and have everybody be done with the tournament on a fast schedule.

Do not compare that with the mii fighter toggle.

Also, our rules are based on what isn't broken.

Time mode = Causes broken strats and detremntal gameplay, we don't use it for this reason
Items = Same as Time mode
Banned Stages = Same as Time Mode
Mii Fighters = Same as Time M- wait.... no? Last time I checked Mii fighters don't add broken strats and detremental gameplay. So if the game allows it, why are we not allowing it?

Are mii's broken? Nope. Considering the best Mii Brawler using the ever so powerful tiny mii brawler with helicopter kick couldn't even get to top 8 at EVO, it's not broken. There is no reason to limit it.

You act as if we don't make miis 1111 only it will no longer be competitive, why do you say this?

The tournaments in Tourney mode don't ban stages like the ones made by other people. It is also possible to prevent the Mii Fighters from being selected, which is something that you can't do in the regular Smash mode. Also, how does Tourney mode prove that the Mii Fighters don't have defaults or custom moves? Those statements are still completely false.

This post is for you too.

 

[Doruge]

Again tournament mode is not the way we should be deciding competitive rulesets.

Then how should we decide them? Because I'd much rather base rulesets off of the actual game, rather than base them off of basically nothing other than your personal opinion of what's "fair".

 

[Jigglymaster]

Mii Fighters
- The game allows it
- It's not Broken

Why do be ban it?

Because people are selfish, thats why.

 

[tecmo]

There is a legit reason behind the 3 minute timer. It's because nintendo wants the games to run fast and have everybody be done with the tournament on a fast schedule.
The reason for three minutes doesnt really matter It is still not competitive and we shouldn't be basing anything about competitive smash off of it. So if that stage was universally


Do not compare that with the mii fighter toggle.

Also, our rules are based on what isn't broken.

Time mode = Causes broken strats and detremntal gameplay, we don't use it for this reason
Items = Same as Time mode
Banned Stages = Same as Time Mode
Mii Fighters = Same as Time M- wait.... no? Last time I checked Mii fighters don't add broken strats and detremental gameplay. So if the game allows it, why are we not allowing it?

Are mii's broken? Nope. Considering the best Mii Brawler using the ever so powerful tiny mii brawler with helicopter kick couldn't even get to top 8 at EVO, it's not broken. There is no reason to limit it.

You act as if we don't make miis 1111 only it will no longer be competitive, why do you say this?


This post is for you too.

The reason for it being three minutes is entirely irrelevant. It still isn't competitive nor should we base this decision on tournament mode. But more important is your second point, because it is a common misconception. We ban things for other reasons too. In brawl for example we banned the mario bros stage despite the fact that if it was practiced the better player on that stage would win( ie it was competitive) the reason it was banned was it tested skills that only applied on itself and nowhere else. So it didn't make sense to keep it legal. I feel it also makes sense to keep customs off the mii fighters in customs off tournaments, and yes that means 1,1,1,1

Edit: I just noticed your next post, way to keep it civil dude /sarcasm

I'm done here but Jigglymaster you should really learn to have a discussion without resorting to name calling.