Norcal/Bay Area/DBR:NorCal Nevers: Everything in Moderation. Including Moderation.

[whiteboyninja]

There once was a critter named fmif.
He never quite got enough sleep.
Then jeff came and knee'd him off a cliff,
and Fmif couldnt even utter a peep.

 

[Zoap]

one problem there white. ITS NOT FMIF its FMF lol but great story none the less, and surprisingly truthful. maybe it was so it rhymed lol who cares

 

[frotaz37]

fmif? o_O ......

 

[Zoap]

you know since the brackets were not so great with so many ppl missing i decided to tinker wit the program. It seems as long as u have byes you can continue to add players. So in the case of this biweekly we actually had enough byes to replace ppl with. if we use the program again ill show u guys how to do it. Only thing is if u go over the original brackets limit say u have 33 for a 32 man brackets u have to creat a whole new one.

 

[sidefx]

or you can have a side sub bracket on a piece of paper

 

[whiteboyninja]

to those of you who didnt get the joke...Falcomist was playing on the projector screen, using FMF as his tag. i commentd that FMF sounds kinda like fmif, and that fmif sounds like something from dr. seuss. so then i was bored and decided to do that, even though falco's beak got kinda messed up

 

[FALCOMIST]

There once was a critter named fmif.
He never quite got enough sleep.
Then jeff came and knee'd him off a cliff,
and Fmif couldnt even utter a peep.

LOL nice xD ummm make the falco GREEN xD.

 

[MyKo]

F"KN W T F

AGHHHH..

they should randomly put Dr. Seuss in Brawl...to tick people off..LLOLL!!!

 

[Serendipity]

OMG!!!!!!!!!! OMG EVERYONE!!!! It's JUstins Birthday~!~~~~!!~!~

HAPPY BIRTHDAY JUSTIN!!!! FMF!!!! He's 18 now!!!!! everyone gets to smash him 18 times b4 an actual mathc starts!!!! ^_^

 

[Dread101]

Happy Birthday Fmf!!!!!

 

[MyKo]

HAPPY BDAY Falco buddy. xP

..too bad your bday can't be when everyone can smash..24/7 for it..omfg ILL DO IT i swear i would until my hands come off lol. ^^

 

[mcc]

my hands dont hurt from smash anymore so if anyone feels like smashing for 20 hours straight, call me

 

[FALCOMIST]

OMG!!!!!!!!!! OMG EVERYONE!!!! It's JUstins Birthday~!~~~~!!~!~

HAPPY BIRTHDAY JUSTIN!!!! FMF!!!! He's 18 now!!!!! everyone gets to smash him 18 times b4 an actual mathc starts!!!! ^_^

Thx u Yen i really appreciate it ^^ Azn Dread on Fire xD. 3rd place also not so bad at all ^^.


[QUOTEHAPPY BDAY Falco buddy. xP

..too bad your bday can't be when everyone can smash..24/7 for it..omfg ILL DO IT i swear i would until my hands come off lol. ^^][/QUOTE]

OO Myko i think my hand would fall off just practing walk on edge for 24/7 xD.

 

[ShadowBTZO]

GREAT MATCHES too ppl i played like seriously-_-.

IM ALSO APOLOGIZING TO EVERYONE FOR THE SINGLE FINAL AND SHOWED A BAD SHOWING OF MY FALCO BEING RAPPED.

SORRY AGAIN NOT USED TO CROWDS AND LOTS OF PPL WATCHING.

More johnz I see...lolz jk good sh*t at the tournament and happy birthday man haha

Also I would be more than happy just to write up the brackets and do seedings and everything...I don't like the way the system seeds people automatically (yeah I guess you could just do it manually). Whatever makes it easier though, I just don't want what happened this last week to happen again

 

[SuperRad]

More johnz I see...lolz jk good sh*t at the tournament and happy birthday man haha

Also I would be more than happy just to write up the brackets and do seedings and everything...I don't like the way the system seeds people automatically (yeah I guess you could just do it manually). Whatever makes it easier though, I just don't want what happened this last week to happen again

if you are using tio and standard bracketing you can manually seed the top people then have the rest be random. it seems to work well.

unless im not understanding what you are saying.

 

[froz3ntear]

happy birthday falcomist. you're an old man now... the big one eight. You can now smoke legally?... yay?... hahaha but don't... studies show smoking degrades ssbm skill...

 

[ShadowBTZO]

if you are using tio and standard bracketing you can manually seed the top people then have the rest be random. it seems to work well.

unless im not understanding what you are saying.

Yeah i know...I said that in the parenthesis in my post XD. There are also people who don't make the top 8 seeds, but who would have been like 9th and 10th seeds, and they are at risk of playing each other, which I don't like. I'm just trying to make things easier though, we could always do all this with tio I suppose.

 

[SuperRad]

Yeah i know...I said that in the parenthesis in my post XD. There are also people who don't make the top 8 seeds, but who would have been like 9th and 10th seeds, and they are at risk of playing each other, which I don't like. I'm just trying to make things easier though, we could always do all this with tio I suppose.

then seed everyone that needs to be seeded manually, you can do more then 8 =P

and i cant read <_<
>_>

 

[ShadowBTZO]

then seed everyone that needs to be seeded manually, you can do more then 8 =P

and i cant read <_<
>_>

Oh...haha I didn't know that, ok then that needs to be done instead IMO, I haven't messed with the program too much just because I've been doing brackets and sh*t by hand for years so I kinda prefer it xP, but ok I can't think of any other reasons off of the top of my head to not use it then. I think alot of people weren't signed up though because either someone forgot, or the announcement of shoutouts ending wasn't loud enough (i didn't hear it >.> haha).

 

[froz3ntear]

I have a basic question bout the brackets (im stupid). How do rankings work on brackets? do wins in the winner bracket count more than wins in the loser bracket?... or does everyone that gets a 2-2 record rank the same and everyone with a 3-2 record rank the same?

 

[SuperRad]

I have a basic question bout the brackets (im stupid). How do rankings work on brackets? do wins in the winner bracket count more than wins in the loser bracket?... or does everyone that gets a 2-2 record rank the same and everyone with a 3-2 record rank the same?

its based on what round of the losers bracket you go out in. losers finals: 3rd place, losers semis:4th, losers quarters: 5th/6th, etc.

Oh...haha I didn't know that, ok then that needs to be done instead IMO, I haven't messed with the program too much just because I've been doing brackets and sh*t by hand for years so I kinda prefer it xP, but ok I can't think of any other reasons off of the top of my head to not use it then. I think alot of people weren't signed up though because either someone forgot, or the announcement of shoutouts ending wasn't loud enough (i didn't hear it >.> haha).

haha yeah its a neat program. seems like it would make bracketing easier once you figured all the ins and outs.

 

[froz3ntear]

its based on what round of the losers bracket you go out in. losers finals: 3rd place, losers semis:4th, losers quarters: 5th/6th, etc.

Oh, but do wins in the winner bracket cause you to skip rounds in the loser bracket? Like if someone wins 3 times in the winner bracket then loses twice

is compared to someone who loses the first round then wins 3 rounds then loses the last round, can they both have 3-2 records but the first guy has a better rank?

 

[Scamp]

Oh, but do wins in the winner bracket cause you to skip rounds in the loser bracket? Like if someone wins 3 times in the winner bracket then loses twice
is compared to someone who loses the first round then wins 3 rounds then loses the last round, can they both have 3-2 records but the first guy has a better rank?

Anyone who goes 1-2 will place in the same place (assuming no byes, of course) but after that wins in the winners bracket are kinda like 2 wins in the losers bracket, give or take a little.

This is why people tend to put more emphasis on who people played rather than what place they got (other than top 2, which means you beat everyone else anyway) because having an easy bracket can pull results way too much.

 

[froz3ntear]

Anyone who goes 1-2 will place in the same place (assuming no byes, of course) but after that wins in the winners bracket are kinda like 2 wins in the losers bracket, give or take a little.

This is why people tend to put more emphasis on who people played rather than what place they got (other than top 2, which means you beat everyone else anyway) because having an easy bracket can pull results way too much.

Ah. Thank you for clearing that up.. I always assumed that the same record meant same rank, but was curious if staying in the winner bracket had some significant advantage cause i hear like "it's going to be a long way back up if he gets into loser bracket first round."

 

[Ian]

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[petoo0]

LOL. that was funny. so dumb and randomn

 

[Afro Justin]

so when's the next biweekly? And we're doing SBS or DRIFT (whichever it is now) again some time while i'm down, right? I'm coming home for christmas! w00t. dec 15th - January 7th, i think...

 

[Art?]

afro justin can you please get lost on the way here kthxbye.

 

[Afro Justin]

wow... someone sure seems anxious to see me... I <3 you, too, Arturo...

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Guys, how about we do a Swiss biweekly once?

In case you don't know, I'll give you a general idea of what it is. Some of the details can be tweaked to smashers' likings:

1st round random seeding (it can be seeded if necessary but it generally works out to be the same).

2nd round, those who are 1-0 will play another who is 1-0, same for 0-1.

In each subsequent round, you play someone with a record similar to yours (or as close as possible). The number of rounds is usually at least 5.

And that is basically it. Everybody gets to play the same number of matches. Whoever has the best record left at the end wins.

Possible modifications:

- The top 4, or 6, or 8, or whatever can be put into a final bracket.

- Each round after the first can be worth more points (or more matches can be played), as the idea is that in each round, you're getting to play people closer to your skill level with each iteration. Thus if you had an unfortunate seed for your first 1 or 2 rounds, it could all be evened out in the 3rd round.

- A points system could also be made out of remaining stocks in matches. If so I think matches with a larger number of stocks should be used. I think this will also motivate people to play differently in their matches if it's not all about the W. Not necessarily better, but different (just as the Swiss system isn't necessarily better, just different).

- Some sort of stage rules modification would probably be necessary to try to reduce irregularities.

So yeah, I think it would be really fun, and it would let people that don't normally get to play a lot of matches some more tourney time. Nobody would be crying for friendlies either since everyone would be having a match in the near future.

Lemme know what you kids think......

 

[MyKo]

lol holy crap i cant read at 2am..i need to try 8 hours later. brb (Zz).. ^^

 

[froz3ntear]

Guys, how about we do a Swiss biweekly once?

In case you don't know, I'll give you a general idea of what it is. Some of the details can be tweaked to smashers' likings:

1st round random seeding (it can be seeded if necessary but it generally works out to be the same).

2nd round, those who are 1-0 will play another who is 1-0, same for 0-1.

In each subsequent round, you play someone with a record similar to yours (or as close as possible). The number of rounds is usually at least 5.

And that is basically it. Everybody gets to play the same number of matches. Whoever has the best record left at the end wins.

Possible modifications:

- The top 4, or 6, or 8, or whatever can be put into a final bracket.

- Each round after the first can be worth more points (or more matches can be played), as the idea is that in each round, you're getting to play people closer to your skill level with each iteration. Thus if you had an unfortunate seed for your first 1 or 2 rounds, it could all be evened out in the 3rd round.

- A points system could also be made out of remaining stocks in matches. If so I think matches with a larger number of stocks should be used. I think this will also motivate people to play differently in their matches if it's not all about the W. Not necessarily better, but different (just as the Swiss system isn't necessarily better, just different).

- Some sort of stage rules modification would probably be necessary to try to reduce irregularities.

So yeah, I think it would be really fun, and it would let people that don't normally get to play a lot of matches some more tourney time. Nobody would be crying for friendlies either since everyone would be having a match in the near future.

Lemme know what you kids think......

Sounds like a great idea to me. Hope it happens next biweekly =).

 

[Serendipity]

omg christmas shopping round 2!!!! I hate shopping!!!!! AGSuiaskhhd!!!.....

omkai here i go!-_-

I wanna smashhh......Sigh

 

[EnigmaticCam]

Guys, how about we do a Swiss biweekly once?

In case you don't know, I'll give you a general idea of what it is. Some of the details can be tweaked to smashers' likings:

1st round random seeding (it can be seeded if necessary but it generally works out to be the same).

2nd round, those who are 1-0 will play another who is 1-0, same for 0-1.

In each subsequent round, you play someone with a record similar to yours (or as close as possible). The number of rounds is usually at least 5.

And that is basically it. Everybody gets to play the same number of matches. Whoever has the best record left at the end wins.

Possible modifications:

- The top 4, or 6, or 8, or whatever can be put into a final bracket.

- Each round after the first can be worth more points (or more matches can be played), as the idea is that in each round, you're getting to play people closer to your skill level with each iteration. Thus if you had an unfortunate seed for your first 1 or 2 rounds, it could all be evened out in the 3rd round.

- A points system could also be made out of remaining stocks in matches. If so I think matches with a larger number of stocks should be used. I think this will also motivate people to play differently in their matches if it's not all about the W. Not necessarily better, but different (just as the Swiss system isn't necessarily better, just different).

- Some sort of stage rules modification would probably be necessary to try to reduce irregularities.

So yeah, I think it would be really fun, and it would let people that don't normally get to play a lot of matches some more tourney time. Nobody would be crying for friendlies either since everyone would be having a match in the near future.

Lemme know what you kids think......

I like the sound of that. I've always wanted to know how the swiss system works.

 

[Afro Justin]

don't we get more matches with DRIFT? And isn't the point of that also to put people in a match with someone in a similar skill range? Not to be knocking the Swiss system or anything, it just seems like it doesn't have a clear benefit over DRIFT...

 

[froz3ntear]

don't we get more matches with DRIFT? And isn't the point of that also to put people in a match with someone in a similar skill range? Not to be knocking the Swiss system or anything, it just seems like it doesn't have a clear benefit over DRIFT...

It does put people in a similar skill range.

Say Art and I are at about the same level.
If I get put up against a monster like Lunin in first round... I'd go 0-1,
And Art plays Iceninja and goes 1-0.

I have a 0-1 record now and art has a 1-0 record. It doesnt mean hes better than me... still 4 more rounds to go.

I'll end up playing Iceninja, and Art will end up playing Lunin.
We would than be narrowing down the skill level so Art and I would have 1-1 records and play each other to further make the skill levels more accurate
One of us will end up with 2-1, the other with 1-2, then we will play someone else with the same record.

so it balances out in 3rd round then continues to further devide the skill level.

In single elimination, a huge factor for ranking is luck, and thats why we have double elimination to further eliminate the luck factor and make the rankings more accurate, basically the more rounds that are played, the more accurate the rankings will be, so five is plenty... yay for swiss.

with the fairest system of all being round robin... a 30 man round robin would be fun.

 

[Scamp]

Swiss is, in effect, very similar to DRIFT. Neal pointed that out several times.

Usually in a Swiss system everyone is seeded much like DRIFT was. The reason is to help prevent repeat matchups, which is what you typically try and avoid. If you do random matchups with everyone who is 1-1 or 2-2 or whatever, there is a good chance for a repeat matchup. Of course, you can just manually switch them.

Also, since people tend not to attend tourneys in powers of 2, you'll usually have lopsided fields of records. I mean like 3 people who are 3-0. 5 who are 2-1, etc. You need to pull someone from the 2-1 to play someone from the 3-0, or else you give out lots of byes.


But anyway, both systems provide a similar number of matches. It all depends on how many rounds of each you want to do. The major pain of Swiss is setting up each round, especially if you want to prevent repeat matches from happening.

DRIFT can be considered a form of Swiss.

 

[Afro Justin]

maybe i was unclear with what i was saying Bryant... I wasn't disputing that it puts people of similar skill levels against each other... That's why I used the word "also." They both do.

And according to that, Scamp, Drift would in essence be not just a derivation of Swiss, but possibly a "better" form of it, would it not?

 

[whiteboyninja]

well we tried DRIFT and it went pretty cool. i'd love to try the swiss one, too! lets give it a go. maybe this way we can have multiple formats for biweeklies and rotate or something so things dont get old.

plus this swiss system seems like it would be fantastic for getting accurate results for NCPR observation. i would highly reccomend taking a good look and rounds 3 and on.

i like this because it leaves a little less to chance compared to the bracket. the unfortunate downside is it takes longer.

i also really like the idea of the top 8 being in a bracket, because i can see someone in the upper middle skill range could end up with the same rank as a high end person by losing the first 2 and going 4-2 after that, as opposed to someone like lunin who might be undefeated until he runs in to king or spectre.

but yeah. lets give it a try =D

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Well, I never intended to argue that Swiss necessarily had any advantage or disadvantage over DRIFT, I was simply suggesting that we try something different that we had not done before.

However, a couple things I personally like about Swiss, comparatively:

- In the beginning you assume nothing about the skill levels of the players, and you can get the same results with brackets that force you to use some kind of not-entirely-objective seeding mechanism. DRIFT requires a lot of decisions to be made about seeding, and the difference in 1 spot of seeding (8th vs 9th especially), can make a lot of difference.

- In DRIFT, you don't also necessarily get the same amount of matches, which everyone does in Swiss. With each iteration of the separated brackets in DRIFT, those who didn't get 1st or 2nd in the lowest bracket are effectively irrelevant to the tourney after that point. After the "top 8" it is also unclear when the rankings are, 9th and beyond.

I think the central point that I am trying to make is that seeding is very necessary, and must also be very detailed in DRIFT (and the seeding process becomes increasingly more complicated each round, as we try to deal with balancing avoiding repeat matchups, regional seedings, and overall rank in the small bracket of 8), and that the system has high sensitivity to initial conditions (by initial, I mean the seeding in each subsequent round, not just the very first one), where Swiss has very low sensitivity to initial conditions. Mathematically speaking, sensitivity to initial conditions is something that is a defining feature of chaotic systems.

That is not to say that there aren't seeding technicalities in the Swiss system, but there are set and well-defined priorities. You may not play the same person twice. But you may also not play someone who differs from you by a certain number of wins/points (a parameter that is the choice of the organizer). This second condition has priority over the first. In addition, if there is an odd number of participants, there must necessarily be a bye. There are selection rules about byes. The most frequently used rule is that the lowest ranked player who has not already gotten a bye (chosen at random in case of a tie) receives a bye and full points for the round.

Now, I realize that I must provide evidence that the Swiss system will provide accurate results for the players in the middle, because clearly without a well-defined tiebreaker system, there exists a possibility of a large number of people in the middle separated by few points. There are 2 ways that I would modify (not by my own invention, just from having researched Swiss variations) our tourney so as to get well-defined rankings.

The first is that we use the system in which successive rounds are worth more points. It's basically the same as the proposes system at this tourney: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=90182
There are 15 possible points, which allows for 16 different ranks (though they may not necessarily all be achieved). In a 2^n man double elimination bracket, there are 2n ranks, because 2^(k-2) tie for the (2k)th and (2k-1)th ranks (except when k=1, i.e. 1st and 2nd place). Thus to have 16 ranks, you need a 256-man bracket, or at least 129 players. And again, we could take the top 8 or whatever and put them into a bracket at the end.

The second system that could be used is where players are put into a group of 4 (or however many desired) to do a round robin (where I would suggest 3 matches played: 1 random, and 1 counter by each person, after stage knock-out), and then some rounds of Swiss could be done after that, which may or may not have the thing with each round being worth more, and/or a final 8 bracket.

Hope everyone had to patience to read all of that, hoping to hear what people's thoughts are.

EDIT:

This thing took a long time to write so people posted in the meantime. One more comment, which is a follow-up to Scamp's last post:

The Swiss system requires making sure that the matchup selection rules be applied in each round, which can take time. These rules however don't require a preset knowledge of relative skill levels. DRIFT does (at least the way we ran it did), and must be weighted against regional seeding and avoiding repeat matchups. The thing that I don't like about many tourney systems is that people can often just ride on their seeding for a long time, e.g. Husband at MLG, e.g. anyone originally seeded top 8 in DRIFT. In Swiss, we're going to pretend we don't know anything about anyone, and I claim we will get possibly more accurate results than a seeded double-elim bracket.

Of course people will have different opinions about "accuracy." If it deviates too much from what we see in the normal biweekly brackets, people will cry inaccuracy simply because it's different, not realizing that accuracy and precision are 2 independent and unrelated quantities ^_~