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Norcal/Bay Area/DBR:NorCal Nevers: Everything in Moderation. Including Moderation.

K

KizzoGirl

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
545
The club is getting a Wii, and might be used as a tournament console (not really). And when the tournament is over, we can all play Wii Sports Tennis (not really).
 
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usea

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
773
Scamp said:
Lastly, you say in your example that there are 8 pools and 8 spots in the final bracket. That's 64 people and only four rounds. (Two advance from the top pool each round.) Since you say the guy goes 2-0 for the first five pools, I can only conclude that something is unclear to you. But I'm not exactly sure what it is. Is it that the pools are not round-robin, which people usually associate when someone says pools?
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I understand that the pools are really just X-person brackets that are only played out for 2 rounds. I didn't put a lot of thought into the example numbers, I was mostly trying to illustrate my point. Was my fault that in a 64 man tournament, there would be many more than 8 spots in the final bracket? There are a lot of considerations to make for this format such as pool size, number of pools, final bracket size, etc to make when drawing up the design after entry is closed.

Not trying to harp on the format or anything, I think it's very cool. I just wanted to know more about it and point out some downsides that immediately came to mind (which I'm sure you were aware of). It obviously has a lot of upsides as well, like natural skill-matching.

How do you think the format would work out for a non-specialized tournament, such as a normal singles tournament with 200 entrants? What considerations would have to be made to actually finish it in time? How do you decide how large to make the pools and the final bracket?

Sorry to disrupt this topic btw :(
 
Scamp

Scamp

Smash Master
BRoomer
Joined
May 30, 2002
Messages
4,344
Location
Berkeley
I wouldn't worry about interrupting the topic. They're talking about Daft Punk and making faces. Next we'll be talking about Moby and Etch-A-Sketch.

Anyway, I must stress that the SBS or DRIFT is not really viable for a huge tournament. It's far better for a local group of say 50 people or less that know each other well enough to rank everyone with a decent degree of accuracy.

I don't think it'd be a good idea to do it with more than 48. With 50 people and 8 TVs it'd take about 5-6 hours to do the whole thing assuming everything is run smoothly.

I think the optimal size for the DE pools is eight. I suppose you could do four, but then you'd have two people advancing after one match. If you do two matches in a DE pool of four then you could have one person advancing and one person demoted. Good for smaller tournies, I guess.

Wait, opposite of advancing. DE-vancing? I suppose it's retreating. Demoted is good, but then maybe I should say promoted instead of advancing. Yeah, I should. Advancing would be going to the final bracket.

Anyway, with more than eight (and it'd probably have to be a power of 2) you'd have matches where people wouldn't care as much because they wouldn't be in any danger of demotion and they'll have no chance of promotion. (I'm thinking a 16 man DE pool for this.) Thus I really don't think you can do DE pools bigger than eight for this format, unless you adjust a few things.

But yeah, if there were 64 people I'd probably cram 16 into the final bracket. That's be 8 rounds which would make for a loooooooooong *** tournament. Maybe you could start eliminating the bottom two pools after every two rounds. Off the scrubs.
 
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petoo0

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
981
Location
Palmdale/UC Berkeley
well it sounds to me like this ranking crap is just too complicated for something like power rankings....w/e. seems pointless and a huge waste of time to me .
 
Scamp

Scamp

Smash Master
BRoomer
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Messages
4,344
Location
Berkeley
petoo0 said:
well it sounds to me like this ranking crap is just too complicated for something like power rankings....w/e. seems pointless and a huge waste of time to me .
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I don't see what you're trying to accomplish with this post.

Firstly, you should at least try to understand something before calling it crap. Everyone I've explained it to so far in person is interested and thinks it can be a good idea. The point is for people to have more relevant tournament matches which in turn will help make a more accurate power ranking.

You know what's really complicated? Ranking people with a limited supply of matches to draw conclusions from. Try making your own power ranking list sometime.


Secondly, what's truly pointless are backhanded comments from someone with minimal interest. Don't go posting up how you'd rather be in SoCal and then go and try to undermine my efforts to make the NorCal community more competitive. If you've got a problem, please express what it might be other than it's "too complicated." Because of that, it seems that either you're too stupid to grasp what I'm trying to do or you just didn't make a real effort to understand it.

I don't think the former is true and I certainly hope the latter isn't true, but I just don't see any other reason for what you said right now.
 
SuperRad

SuperRad

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
4,965
Location
San Francisco, CA [Sometimes Santa Cruz]
I love the idea personally. Why? because I go to biweeklies and go two and out (or atleast, have at everyone ive attended so far). So this would give me a chance to play much more tournament matches. I mean, friendlies are great and all, but i always feel like my best experience comes from tournament matches, whether its because people try harder or its just that I get put under more pressure to win.

so yeah, i would support trying this format at a biweekly.
 
P

petoo0

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
981
Location
Palmdale/UC Berkeley
Scamp said:
I don't see what you're trying to accomplish with this post.

Firstly, you should at least try to understand something before calling it crap. Everyone I've explained it to so far in person is interested and thinks it can be a good idea. The point is for people to have more relevant tournament matches which in turn will help make a more accurate power ranking.

You know what's really complicated? Ranking people with a limited supply of matches to draw conclusions from. Try making your own power ranking list sometime.


Secondly, what's truly pointless are backhanded comments from someone with minimal interest. Don't go posting up how you'd rather be in SoCal and then go and try to undermine my efforts to make the NorCal community more competitive. If you've got a problem, please express what it might be other than it's "too complicated." Because of that, it seems that either you're too stupid to grasp what I'm trying to do or you just didn't make a real effort to understand it.

I don't think the former is true and I certainly hope the latter isn't true, but I just don't see any other reason for what you said right now.
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what was i trying to accomplish...uhhh nothing. i was stating in opinion...but i dont know maybe i am too stupid to do that. ranking people is complicates? yea thast probably true...but how sure are you that this method will give 100% accurate rankings...are people going to be completely satisfied...ever...no there will still be debates about who is where, why they are there, and who they think should be there. my point was that you dont have to do this to get power rankings...cuase guess what the best will still be the best. however if your doing this so that people who go to biweeklies and pay to enter have a chance to play lots of people and get there moneys worth then /claps. but dont sit here and insult my intelligence because i didnt insult yours. and yes id rather be in so cal right now...why? well guess what i lived there the past 18 years...so yea nor cal doesnt seem all that great at this point.
 
ShadowBTZO

ShadowBTZO

Smash Lord
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
1,123
Location
Salinas, CA
petoo0 said:
what was i trying to accomplish...uhhh nothing. i was stating in opinion...but i dont know maybe i am too stupid to do that. ranking people is complicates? yea thast probably true...but how sure are you that this method will give 100% accurate rankings...are people going to be completely satisfied...ever...no there will still be debates about who is where, why they are there, and who they think should be there. my point was that you dont have to do this to get power rankings...cuase guess what the best will still be the best. however if your doing this so that people who go to biweeklies and pay to enter have a chance to play lots of people and get there moneys worth then /claps. but dont sit here and insult my intelligence because i didnt insult yours. and yes id rather be in so cal right now...why? well guess what i lived there the past 18 years...so yea nor cal doesnt seem all that great at this point.
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Well as you said people will never be satisfied, but that isn't what Scamp is trying to do. There are some people who don't show up often, so if they showed up to just 1 and we did this system, it would show how they do against the people around them. Personally I think it is a really good idea, helps because some people don't play people around there rank too much. I get what you mean, but we weren't planning on basing the ranks on this, this would just help them alot. I don't think I need to defend Norcal though XD, Norcal's too good:p
 
Scamp

Scamp

Smash Master
BRoomer
Joined
May 30, 2002
Messages
4,344
Location
Berkeley
Petoo0 I didn't insult your intelligence. Well, I did if you want to take it that way, but I hope that's not the case. We've had conversations before, and I don't think you're stupid. It says exactly that in my post. If anything I was more insulting to your post. However, I can see how you could take it the wrong way, and for that I apologize.

And yeah, the format probably won't make a difference among the top eight or so. But it certainly will help those who are, say, just off the top 25 and want to be on it. One random win won't get you on the list, but consistant play against good competition will. So I mostly think it's really helpful for the bottom 15 spots or so.

On top of all that, I really think it'll help a lot of players get better. Faster.
 
U

usea

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
773
I think I'll keep up with this topic to see how the format works out. I love it :) The best part imo is definitely how it sorts players by skill and thus you play people near your skill level. That is one of the least fun parts of tournaments, when you play somebody way worse or way better.
 
P

petoo0

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
981
Location
Palmdale/UC Berkeley
ShadowBTZO said:
Well as you said people will never be satisfied, but that isn't what Scamp is trying to do. There are some people who don't show up often, so if they showed up to just 1 and we did this system, it would show how they do against the people around them. Personally I think it is a really good idea, helps because some people don't play people around there rank too much. I get what you mean, but we weren't planning on basing the ranks on this, this would just help them a lot. I don't think I need to defend Nor Cal though XD, Nor Cal's too good:p
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I understand that BTZO, thanks...I didn't intend to mean the entire system was useless...just didn't make sense to me to base the power rankings of off that. But yes it would allow people to show what they got. And yes Nor Cal is too good. We need to team again at a biweekly man..too good.

Ian said:
and changing subject!!!

Petoo0
is Palmdale the name of your hometown or the name of your crew or both?
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Both...we used to be called DI-nasty...but kinda lame so we just go as Palmdale.

Scamp said:
Petoo0 I didn't insult your intelligence. Well, I did if you want to take it that way, but I hope that's not the case. We've had conversations before, and I don't think you're stupid. It says exactly that in my post. If anything I was more insulting to your post. However, I can see how you could take it the wrong way, and for that I apologize.

And yeah, the format probably won't make a difference among the top eight or so. But it certainly will help those who are, say, just off the top 25 and want to be on it. One random win won't get you on the list, but consistent play against good competition will. So I mostly think it's really helpful for the bottom 15 spots or so.

On top of all that, I really think it'll help a lot of players get better. Faster.
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Yes, I agree with the system helping people to get better faster...thats something i can completely see. i was just saying...well i think you understand what i was saying before so i won't get into it again. no hard feelings. I have no complaints about the smashers here though, let me clarify that. so far the smashers i have met have been awesome and have really been helpful in getting me situated with the scene up here. and thanks to them.

~SIDE NOTE~ ummm guys lol is this weekend biweekly (is there one this weekend) at SJSU or SFSU? Im' confused on that. I haven played smash since NCT2 so yea...If its this weekend I may go...however next weekend I'll be home for the break.
 
Scamp

Scamp

Smash Master
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Messages
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Berkeley
The real beauty for the system is that every match people have something to play for. The first match sets you up to advance if you win the second match, so both of those people want to win. If you lose your first match then you'll want to win your second match so you won't get dropped.

I guess this doesn't apply to the last round (excepting the top DE pool) and for people who lost their first match in the bottom bracket. Maybe I can devise a way to make those matches more interesting.

Compare that with pools where people may stop caring once they have enough points to advance (or may lose on purpose to their scrubby friends) and swiss where people may stop caring once they are mathematically eliminated. I suppose Double-Elimination all the way makes every match important, but no one wants to do that anymore. Seriously, so outdated.


If we do run the SBS next tourney I'd recommend announcing it as soon as possible so people can say if they're going and we can get an approximate total. Furthermore, while I have a prediction I don't really know how long it'll take so I'd suggest we run this first before teams, starting at 11 AM sharp.

For some reason, I really liked Kurtis' idea to call it DRIFT, silly as it may be. People drift up and down in the pools, and it's kind of catchy. But I guess I'm in the minority on this, and SBS kinda has my gamertag in it.

Should I start a new thread on this instead of writing a bunch of things here?
 
F

froz3ntear

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Messages
533
Location
San Jose
Scamp said:
I suppose Double-Elimination all the way makes every match important, but no one wants to do that anymore. Seriously, so outdated.
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I'm all for the SBS format if it happens for the next biweekly, but double elimination has always been the standard and I still love the beauty of it. Efficient in time and gives reasonably good results, rank 1 and 2 always end up in finals one way or the other. I don't care really as long as I get to play... muahahahah and of course if the system is fair and logical.

Of course if we wanted the most accurate results in the world, we'd have a full 30 man round robin... now that would be hillirious and lots of fun.

NORCAL biweeklys, most accurate tournements in the U.S...
Duration of tournement: 4 - 40 hours.
 
ender

ender

open your parachute
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Joined
Oct 7, 2002
Messages
8,027
there is the sacramento Biweekly going on this Saturday. I dunno how far you can travel though.

attendees will be people including Simna Kev$ and myself. Zoap and co. or Sherridan and Co. might show up as well, but I havnt talked to them in a few days.
 
Scamp

Scamp

Smash Master
BRoomer
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May 30, 2002
Messages
4,344
Location
Berkeley
I need a sarcasm meter in my posts.

It seems the date is set. Can anyone confirm format/times and so on?

I still say start singles at 11.
 
Zoap

Zoap

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 7, 2004
Messages
3,430
Location
California
drift sounds cool, just change it to SDS or SDP, the first being Scamps Drift System and the second being Scamps Drift Pools. Other than that it sounds would be a good idea, only thing i dont like is this can really hurt ppl that dont show up esp in the higher teen area. And time of coursee is an issue. If u do it at 11 make sure u put it in the title lol
 
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