No tripping with Action Replay

[strider2k]

Yea it would suck if Ken was leading 0% to Azen at 100% and the trip causes Ken to lose.

My earlier post was included for humor. I know I cannot beat them but if for some strange act of God that Ken trips 4 times to allow me to smash him, then I'd say that I'm one lucky mofo. If all of the good players get an upset because of tripping, it needs to be re-evaluated.

 

[Yuna]

Yea it would suck if Ken was leading 0% to Azen at 100% and the trip causes Ken to lose.

My earlier post was included for humor. I know I cannot beat them but if for some strange act of God that Ken trips 4 times to allow me to smash him, then I'd say that I'm one lucky mofo. If all of the good players get an upset because of tripping, it needs to be re-evaluated.

While statistically improbably, it's possible.

And since I beat all odds (I pull items all the time as Peach) in videogames, the new Yuna Strategy in Brawl might be that everyone keeps tripping against me. And if Ken trips a good 8 times in a single match, maybe, just maybe I might beat him. Improbable, but it can happen.

And even one trip is enough to screw you over in an evenly matched game. So, yeah, it will screw people over in tournaments... a lot.

 

[DRaGZ]

Like I said before in this thread, I think Sakurai put in tripping to promote air battles (I see no real indication that air tripping really exists at all, and Sakurai's posts on Luigi's final smash seems to corroborate that).

And it adds randomness to battles. Competitive battles too. That's okay I guess. People were fine with Peach pulling out Bob-ombs and sick turnips, and while those have a much lower chance of occuring, they're still random and game-changing. It wasn't ever something people could get rid of, and it worked out okay. I've seen a few competitive Melee videos where the outcome was decided by a Bob-omb (one with a very quick throw that killed the opponent and another with a stand-offish mindgame jumping around deal which ended up backfiring on the Peach).

Aaaaaaanyway...I'm okay with it.

 

[Tajem]

/argument

I'm pretty sure he was thinking about making a great game for everyone. If he wanted a game for just compettetive smashers, he would have had a ton of clones (like Dr Mario and Falco from Melee), a whole set of stages that were clones of battlefield and final destination, and a fully functional leaderboard.

Seems as though he was leaning the other way.....

Edit: Also, this is not attack on "compettitves" from a "casual"; I just think that the developers were more concerned about millions of Wii's that have been sold, rather than the sect of gamers that play this game for keeps

This.

10calzones

 

[shadydentist]

No one is worried about a Ken or an Azen losing to you because of tripping-- they're worried about Ken losing to Azen (or whoever) because of tripping.

This. Tripping is will generally only make a difference when the skill level is close.

 

[Yuna]

And it adds randomness to battles. Competitive battles too. That's okay I guess. People were fine with Peach pulling out Bob-ombs and sick turnips, and while those have a much lower chance of occuring, they're still random and game-changing. It wasn't ever something people could get rid of, and it worked out okay. I've seen a few competitive Melee videos where the outcome was decided by a Bob-omb (one with a very quick throw that killed the opponent and another with a stand-offish mindgame jumping around deal which ended up backfiring on the Peach).

Aaaaaaanyway...I'm okay with it.

Because then we'd have to ban Peach. And she wasn't broken enough to ban.

Tripping we can't even control other than "Don't dash", I guess, but then how come people have tripped out of F-tilting? I'm not sure, it only when you dash or whatever you move in a direction on the ground?

Also, you could see Peach's turnips/bombs/whatever coming (she has to pull them first). Tripping just happens.

 

[DRaGZ]

Because then we'd have to ban Peach. And she wasn't broken enough to ban.

Tripping we can't even control other than "Don't dash", I guess, but then how come people have tripped out of F-tilting? I'm not sure, it only when you dash or whatever you move in a direction on the ground?

Also, you could see Peach's turnips/bombs/whatever coming (she has to pull them first). Tripping just happens.

Hehe, you're totally right. But I figure that tripping is just another thing we'll have to contend with.

I'm already content with that fact now.

EDIT: Well, you don't need to dash to trip. You just need to be on the ground and move in a lateral direction. That's why you can trip during an f-tilt. I think this was discussed elsewhere on these boards.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

If this is possible, I'm sure major tournaments will turn off tripping.

 

[Yuna]

If this is possible, I'm sure major tournaments will turn off tripping.

Hack the game to prevent randomness? Yeah, no offense, but I don't think so. We'd be the laughing stock of the rest of the competitive fighting community.

You can do a lot of things to limit chance and balance the game. Hacking it using AR is not one of them. Because that would no longer be playing the game as it was programmed. That would be shaping the game as we wish it were.

 

[DRaGZ]

If this is possible, I'm sure major tournaments will turn off tripping.

Like Yuna said before, nobody, and I mean nobody hacks a game for the sake of making a tournament more balanced. It just doesn't work that way. People modify the crap out of the game within the constraints of the programmed engine (wavedashing is one way, DotA is an extreme example), but no one ever completely hacks the game. It's a slippery slope that ends up in a ditch of crap.

 

[nelohalo]

This tripping mechanic is like hitting an inside straight in poker. It gives the less skilled players a chance to win every once in a while, and so the better players get more play on their money. For money players, this is a great thing if it costs them a match every so often, as the worse players will play ten times as much if they think they have a shot at winning. In reality they just get lucky every so often. Maybe Sakurai is a good poker player...

 

[DRaGZ]

This tripping mechanic is like hitting an inside straight in poker. It gives the less skilled players a chance to win every once in a while, and so the better players get more play on their money. For money players, this is a great thing if it costs them a match every so often, as the worse players will play ten times as much if they think they have a shot at winning. In reality they just get lucky every so often. Maybe Sakurai is a good poker player...

That's an interesting analogy except that poker doesn't depend on finger dexterity. I play a lot of poker myself and I know what you're talking about, but that simply doesn't apply to Smash, primarily because tripping only really punishes when both players are at a really high level to capitalize effectively. Plus, once a newbie manages to win $50 in a match against someone who is clearly a pro, it's difficult to get him to try again. In poker, there's always the mentality that a pro could get a bad beat, so it's not as much of a gutsy move for a newbie to play another hand against a pro.

Also, in poker, you can fold if you think you're flailing and can return to fight another day. In Smash, you sort of just have to take it until it's over.

 

[fireb0rn]

Plus, once a newbie manages to win $50 in a match against someone who is clearly a pro, it's difficult to get him to try again.

exactly what I think would happen. newbies won't pay to get into tournament for the chance of someone tripping and the chance they will be able to capitalize it and the chance that they will therefore win. even so, that's winning the match, not the tournament. tripping won't make a large enough difference to allow newer players to compete against professionals.

 

[DMAJohnson]

That's an interesting analogy except that poker doesn't depend on finger dexterity.

Not to mention that in poker, your rivals cannot see the cards in your hand and part of the skill is in misdirection. In Smash, when you trip, everyone sees it right away.

 

[DRaGZ]

Well, in Poker, once you reach a certain level of play, you know enough about the opponent's hand to make an educated guess (unless he's been bluffing really hard).

But that's far beyond the point.

 

[TK Wolf]

"Random tripping has saved me some times"

But it cheated your opponent out of an earned-hit. Either way a random influence such as this is lame. Using AR seems a bit much, maybe a bunch of people can file requests for a trip option to be patched in. (You can call Nintendo and make requests that they log. If enough people request something, they miiiiiiight do something about it)

 

[GuMz]

No Cheating

 

[Spaz_Attack3000]

lulz ur color blind.

 

[Heroic]

Based on the other changes Sakurai has made to brawl, tripping wasn't added to make the game "more casual," it was added to nerf a specific technique that he felt was overused/unbalanced/not cool in melee, which was dash dancing. If you try to dance dash like players did in melee, you will be tripping a lot. As it is tripping kind of encourages more aireal gameplay, because you can't trip while in the air.

Also Makai, I don't know if you've played brawl or not, but teching out of a trip isn't exactly difficult the rare times they do occur. If you don't have the reaction time to respond to it, maybe you should go play something more simple.

NEWS FLASH: there is no dash dance in Brawl. Well, it is in in theory, but it isn't useful since you must change direction at the beginning of the animation, making it useless. It is now just a frivolous and useless technique.

and a 1% chance to trip isn't a nerf to dash dance, especially because it is rare you will get killed because you trip, most of the time it will either:
-save your life
-make you screw a killing or combo oppurtunity
It is still an annoyance though, and should be removed if possible.

Teching out of trip? Wtf?
I don't know if it is even possible. You can roll or stamd up after it alright, but it cannot be teched that I know. Hell, even if it could be teched, the speed of the human nervous influx does not allow such a quick response. You would need to react instantly, or be pressing the L button by chance.

And let go of the join dates already. Everyone knows the True Noobs's join date is february/march 2008.

 

[Sonic_VS_Mario]

AR isnt out for wii yet when it is im gonna by for brawl tho cause maybe they will be another char like in melee you could get giga bowser

 

[Thingy Person]

Yes. Tripping is most definitely possible to be turned off through AR. Why would you not use this in tournaments? It's only really bad if it changed the game from the one you've been training for.

 

[Ryven]

I don't understand the "but it isn't the game as it was programmed" argument against this. Quake III Arena is usually played competitively with the Challenge ProMode Arena mod, which rebalances weapons, adds air control, etc. (Actually, that may not be the best example, considering the severity of the modifications, which might be enough to consider it an essentially different game.)

I mean, say somebody comes up with a boardgame, and it's really good. And aside from a few of the pieces having abilities that rely on die rolls, and which everyone agrees are fair, everything is under the control of the players. Except that every turn, you roll a one-hundred-sided die, and if you roll a one, you skip your turn.

Nobody would be crazy for suggesting that this rule be removed. If the game is truly great, and destined to be played hundreds of millions of times, someone is going to skip their turn twice in a row. Three times. Four. If you were playing the game just to screw around, it wouldn't be a problem. But if you were playing for the love of competition, for the fire that burns in your heart as you match wits with another being, and you were denied the opportunity to move four times? (A 1/100^4 chance, I believe. Not insignificant, compared to the number of turns of this game that are going to be played over the course of years.) You'd demand a rematch, almost certainly, and your opponent would be troubled - without accepting, they could never be sure they were actually more skillful, and not just luckier.

But in a tournament setting, their victory would stand.

Almost any sensible tournament ruleset would remove this rule. It's silly to leave in a comparable rule in Brawl, just because that's not the way the game shipped to us. It's OUR game now, and we change it however we **** well want.

Now, I'm not entirely convinced it should be taken out. Logistically, we would need a way to verify that everyone is using the same hack, and that that change causes as few extraneous changes as possible.

Also, it's possible that techniques will be developed to avoid tripping, or to cause it intentionally (if anyone can find a use for it), and that these might imply more depth than a game without it would have. But as it stands now, I'd rather be rid of the one-in-a-hundred-dashes tripping, given that it serves no useful function other than to insist that the game be played in the air, which seems arbitrarily limiting.

 

[Thingy Person]

Also, we can add neutral-worthy Subspace stages to the assortiment (there's a lot of them), do the stuff Yuna suggested, and make the Golden Sun music play somewhere else >_<

 

[GuMz]

Teching out of trip? Wtf?
I don't know if it is even possible. You can roll or stamd up after it alright, but it cannot be teched that I know. Hell, even if it could be teched, the speed of the human nervous influx does not allow such a quick response. You would need to react instantly, or be pressing the L button by chance.

chance? no it's reaction timing. Go play street fighter III:3rd strike and maybe that will change your opinion.

 

[DeliciousCake]

I understand where people are coming from, with tripping being an annoyance and whatever. But seriously, I've played the game so **** much already that when tripping occurs I just naturally roll out of it and continue playing without thinking. It's not as big of a deal as you all are making it out to be.

 

[Yuna]

chance? no it's reaction timing. Go play street fighter III:3rd strike and maybe that will change your opinion.

In SF3, people parry not only reaction (because the human perception system is not fast enough to parry anything in SF3 that isn't reaaaally slow on reaction) but on prediction.

A whiffed parry also brings with it zero risk unless the opponent just happened to throw out an attack within those very few frames between when you press forward and back again for a block.

In other words, no, people are not parrying on reaction. Not even the likes of Daigo and Justin Wong. Tripping is relatively slow, though. Doesn't mean you're not open when you get up.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

As soon as editing software is released to remove tripping from Brawl, my dollar is down. When I play with my friends, we will use a no-tripping version of Brawl, and we will enjoy skilled matches against one another.

At my local gaming cafes, I will attempt to convince the owner to use no-tripping versions of Brawl especially during the tournaments held there. I don't see this being a problem if you know the owner and they share the same values as you.

Big-time tournaments would not 'hack' the game, I know this.

What I find stupid is the rule. Why not? In this case, tripping is stupid to keep in. It's a fighting game, it's meant to be competative. What we're suffering here is the programming of people who are concerned with $ more than competition.

In Sakurai's attempt to make the game friendly to anyone, the competative scene has been screwed.

Tournaments may not hack the game as a rule, because contraversey would arise, and people would not know where to draw the line, but I firmly believe that exceptions should be made, for Brawl's case in particular.

If it were up to me, hacking the game to remove a completely unnecessary, *stupid* mechanic which can be removed easily and flawlessly, would be fine.

But, to the main question, no. Modifying Brawl to suit a competative standard will most likely not happen, unless a small uprising occurs, and petitions and outrages are made, which I also don't see happening. It would require a fundemental changing of the thinking and rules of those who govern such events.

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, I'm saying it's stupid that it won't.

 

[DragonBlade]

Regardless of whether or not it is a good idea or if it will work, we are already taking steps towards making this and more happen. We have the tools, and some people who are capable with more joining daily. Also, as more Wii homebrew develops, it gives us even more options. Eventually we plan to get to the point where no additional hardware is needed to play a tweaked version of Brawl.

 

[Cooper736]

Wow DragonBlade, that post wasn't blatant advertising. Anyway, to the actual point:

No, it's stupid to ban tripping from the game. Am I saying that tripping is a great game mechanic, designed to bring out the best fighting from both opponents? Absolutely not; tripping is a horrible addition to the game. But that in no way makes it banable. I'll relate what's going on here to an NFL draft: a group of fat guys are sitting on a couch. These gentlemen have never played professional football in their lives, but they've been fans for years. As they watch the coaches pick various college students for their team, they scream at the TV, trying to tell the coaches what they should've done, because somehow they feel that years of spectating qualify them to make important, game-breaking decisions, and to do it better than the people whose job it is to do that.

Now apply that to competitive Smash. A bunch of players think they know more about the game than Sakurai, the project director. With such advanced knowledge, why shouldn't they be able to manipulate the game as they please? Tripping is stupid, let's take that out! And hey, you know what? I've been playing competitive Smash for five years, and never in my life have I seen anything as stupid as Dedede's chain grab. Heck, we already took out tripping. Let's just take away a little bit of Dedede's grab range. That'll balance that right out. But still, Pikachu's Dsmash seems a bit too strong. What do you say we gimp it like Peach?

Tampering with the game is something no player, casual or competitive, should do. Sakurai and the Brawl team put the game through extensive tests, just like the Melee team did. If they deemed tripping to be acceptable in competitive play, then so be it. Besides, it makes the game more realistic, right? And it's only a 1/100 chance on every step....

 

[NES n00b]

Tampering with the game is something no player, casual or competitive, should do. Sakurai and the Brawl team put the game through extensive tests, just like the Melee team did. If they deemed tripping to be acceptable in competitive play, then so be it. Besides, it makes the game more realistic, right? And it's only a 1/100 chance on every step....

They didn't deem it to be acceptable in competitive play. They probably thought people would laugh when they trip. He made it a party game. Getting rid of something that is just an arbitrary advantage/disadvantage giver is a no brainer. But apparently, developer's intent supercedes logic especially when it comes to Smash bros. Those people that mod PC games are fine....for some reason.

 

[DragonBlade]

Wow DragonBlade, that post wasn't blatant advertising. Anyway, to the actual point:

Well, I don't really want to have to describe it in all of my posts, and it wouldn't really help simply saying, "There are some people working on it, but I won't tell you anything about it." Also, knowing smashboards, most people would be more offended that we would even think of such an idea. I can't link to my original post here for that reason.

 

[Bud]

I may have found the answer to tripping, however give me few weeks to run tests and make videos, it takes forever to test tripping. Ive been working on finding a trip cancel and I have pulled it off but I dont know the button configuration. I ususally just run back and forth on FD, and when I start to trip is start to hit buttons in sequences. Once I sort of rolled as I was falling into the tripping animation, so Im guessing it has to do with my shield buttons and others I dont know. If anyone wants to look for it also, I dont care about making the discovery post with the actual buttons. But this may turn tripping from something that takes skill away, to one of the most skillful moves to control in gameplay. The roll gives you invincibility frames and perhaps could separate the good from the best. I will be testing as much as I can, but in a fast moving summer course so my time is limited. I am hopeful for this discovery and hope I can figure out what I did, but its just really hard to test tripping and be ready to react when all your doing is running back and forth. I welcome help with the search and hopefully we can beat this plague in the early game.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I really hope that there is a way to remove tripping, I love foxtrotting and pivoting out of foxtrots, but that just increases your odds of tripping so much.

 

[Hybrid222]

This would end up making action replay makers very happy as every tournament savy brawler would own an AR.

 

[Devil7]

Wow DragonBlade, that post wasn't blatant advertising. Anyway, to the actual point:

No, it's stupid to ban tripping from the game. Am I saying that tripping is a great game mechanic, designed to bring out the best fighting from both opponents? Absolutely not; tripping is a horrible addition to the game. But that in no way makes it banable. I'll relate what's going on here to an NFL draft: a group of fat guys are sitting on a couch. These gentlemen have never played professional football in their lives, but they've been fans for years. As they watch the coaches pick various college students for their team, they scream at the TV, trying to tell the coaches what they should've done, because somehow they feel that years of spectating qualify them to make important, game-breaking decisions, and to do it better than the people whose job it is to do that.

Now apply that to competitive Smash. A bunch of players think they know more about the game than Sakurai, the project director. With such advanced knowledge, why shouldn't they be able to manipulate the game as they please? Tripping is stupid, let's take that out! And hey, you know what? I've been playing competitive Smash for five years, and never in my life have I seen anything as stupid as Dedede's chain grab. Heck, we already took out tripping. Let's just take away a little bit of Dedede's grab range. That'll balance that right out. But still, Pikachu's Dsmash seems a bit too strong. What do you say we gimp it like Peach?

Tampering with the game is something no player, casual or competitive, should do. Sakurai and the Brawl team put the game through extensive tests, just like the Melee team did. If they deemed tripping to be acceptable in competitive play, then so be it. Besides, it makes the game more realistic, right? And it's only a 1/100 chance on every step....

OK so lets say your at the smash final tourney with 5000 dollars riding the line. You and your opponent are both really good. Its the final round and you both have one stock left. You go and do a dash attack you opponent charges a smash, YOU trip and fall into his smash dieing. You just lost 5000 dollars because Sakuria put tripping into brawl because he doesn't want it to be a competetive game. Also certain characters who incorporate dash dancing into their attacks are more prone to tripping because they have to move more often. Also snake rarely trips on high level tourney play because of snakedashing. So tripping doesn't actually evenly affect all characters. And don't compare smash to football it distasteful. First we are no the fat men sitting on the coach yelling, we are the FU**ING players of the game. We are the ones who are affected by the decisions not Sakuria and his team. People who do nothing but surf smashboards flaming and trolling, that play only with their friends are the fat guys that are yelling. And while they put the game through extinsive test the players put it through more test thats why you have DDD chain grab, snakedashing, marth screwing ness and lucas. And if you trip in a fight then that makes you the worst fighter ever. I also don't think they will ban certain moves since a single move is not what makes a charcter but all of his moves together.

 

[Wubblez]

Wow DragonBlade, that post wasn't blatant advertising. Anyway, to the actual point:

No, it's stupid to ban tripping from the game. Am I saying that tripping is a great game mechanic, designed to bring out the best fighting from both opponents? Absolutely not; tripping is a horrible addition to the game. But that in no way makes it banable. I'll relate what's going on here to an NFL draft: a group of fat guys are sitting on a couch. These gentlemen have never played professional football in their lives, but they've been fans for years. As they watch the coaches pick various college students for their team, they scream at the TV, trying to tell the coaches what they should've done, because somehow they feel that years of spectating qualify them to make important, game-breaking decisions, and to do it better than the people whose job it is to do that.

Now apply that to competitive Smash. A bunch of players think they know more about the game than Sakurai, the project director. With such advanced knowledge, why shouldn't they be able to manipulate the game as they please? Tripping is stupid, let's take that out! And hey, you know what? I've been playing competitive Smash for five years, and never in my life have I seen anything as stupid as Dedede's chain grab. Heck, we already took out tripping. Let's just take away a little bit of Dedede's grab range. That'll balance that right out. But still, Pikachu's Dsmash seems a bit too strong. What do you say we gimp it like Peach?

Tampering with the game is something no player, casual or competitive, should do. Sakurai and the Brawl team put the game through extensive tests, just like the Melee team did. If they deemed tripping to be acceptable in competitive play, then so be it. Besides, it makes the game more realistic, right? And it's only a 1/100 chance on every step....

I agree with this. It's there. Should it be removed? No. It will happen, so get over it. And for the $5000 scenario. So what? He could trip, I could trip, either of us could trip in a match. If it happens well that just sucks, go on living your life.

 

[Devil7]

Easy for you to say since you'll never be in that position. Also another point is that the better player should ALWAYS WIN. Not lose because of some 1/100 chance mechanic.

OH wait I just discovered a AT its the bigger that Wave Dashing. Its called LUCK. If you have lots of you don't even need skill, you opponent will just trip into all of your attacks regardless. Awesome isn't, I will try and post some vids soon.

 

[Wubblez]

Easy for you to say since you'll never be in that position. Also another point is that the better player should ALWAYS WIN. Not lose because of some 1/100 chance mechanic.

OH wait I just discovered a AT its the bigger that Wave Dashing. Its called LUCK. If you have lots of you don't even need skill, you opponent will just trip into all of your attacks regardless. Awesome isn't, I will try and post some vids soon.

How do you know that? I could be in that situation, who knows who would. Don't assume things about me please.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Oh, not that kind of tripping? I agree that tripping is a random factor that takes away from the competitiveness of the game and Sakurai just wanted it in there to make it more casual. Like MARIO PARTY! We don't want smash to turn into Mario Party, so tripping should be taken out, just like random items.

I made that analogy after I lost my first online tournament bracket match due to tripping.

1. 1 out of every 100 dashes. Do you know much people dash? A lot. In every tournament, statistically, every single player who makes it to the Top10 should have tripped at least a good 20-40 times depending on how many sets they had to play.
2. How so? And just because you have never suffered greatly from tripping doesn't mean no one will.
3. Doesn't mean the game just punished you for doing something as natural as dashing. It'll also screw up combos, edgeguards, approaches, etc., etc., etc. It's not just what you don't get punished for, it's also what you just got scewed out of.
4. I don't lol at join dates. I lol at stupidity no matter where it comes from (this is not directed at you).

You cannot tech out of tripping at all. I tried to in slow motion and couldn't. You don't get invincibility frames unless you attack out of it, which isn't worth it since you can get shield grabbed.

Tripping we can't even control other than "Don't dash", I guess, but then how come people have tripped out of F-tilting? I'm not sure, it only when you dash or whatever you move in a direction on the ground?
Tripping just happens.

Yes. Tripping happens from more than dashing. i tripped out of fsmashing, ftilting, and walking. Seriously. There was a time where I landed from a jump and my character landed on his backside. Without Tingle.

 

[Zarckoh]

I just hope that this works, I dislike tripping and this would help many tourneys.