No tripping with Action Replay

[Eternal Yoshi]

Too bad tourneys won't use it. See Yuna's post for reason why.

 

[Devil7]

How do you know that? I could be in that situation, who knows who would. Don't assume things about me please.

I don't assume. Someone who just lost $5000 or even lost a regular tourney due to tripping (especially if thay they should have won) wouldn't just say get over it.

And people are probably right it won't be taken out, but if we ***** enough maybe it won't be in the next smash

 

[OmegaXXII]

this is the main reason why me and most of you who are competative smashers hate Brawl but even if an AR would possibly do this it would'bt work in tourneys since it would probably be banned for some reason since it's a cheating device afterall, but for personal use against my friends, it would be awesome

 

[Cooper736]

OK so lets say your at the smash final tourney with 5000 dollars riding the line. You and your opponent are both really good. Its the final round and you both have one stock left. You go and do a dash attack you opponent charges a smash, YOU trip and fall into his smash dieing. You just lost 5000 dollars because Sakuria put tripping into brawl because he doesn't want it to be a competetive game. Also certain characters who incorporate dash dancing into their attacks are more prone to tripping because they have to move more often. Also snake rarely trips on high level tourney play because of snakedashing. So tripping doesn't actually evenly affect all characters.

This is possibly the most overused and ineffective argument I've seen in any sort discussion. The fact that so few people actually reach the level of play where they're in a $5000 match invalidates your point completely. Besides, I didn't LOSE $5000. I just didn't win it. Also, I'm sick of hearing that Sakurai didn't want this game to be competitive. He wanted it to be a party game, but that by no means is a reason to say it's not competitive. You are just one of many who can't adjust to no wavedashing, so you blame the designer, not your own lack of ability.[/rant]

But back on topic, tripping does affect all players evenly. It's just that Snake happens to have a more campy style of play, where Marth or Sonic needs to actively chase their opponents. if you want to lower your chances of tripping, play Snake. Also Snake has a higher chance of winning a $5000 tournament, because he's good. And you won't trip.

And don't compare smash to football it distasteful. First we are no the fat men sitting on the coach yelling, we are the FU**ING players of the game. We are the ones who are affected by the decisions not Sakuria and his team.

Just like how football fans are affected by the decisions coaches and player make, because somehow diehard fans associate their own feelings of success and failure with their respective teams. Which is why professional sports are so popular. Which is why sports players get paid more than teachers and firemen. Which is sad.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Cooper, your analogy simply fails, becasue it's dealing with a completely different situation that does not realate. Good work.

Tripping is stupid and unnecessary, and should be removed if possible. It's as simple as that.

If you had the ability to remove it when you play with your friends, you're saying you wouldn't? Becasue 'that's how it was made'? Well, next time I buy a car, I won't bother upgrading it, or replacing parts, because if they made it ****ty in the first place, I should keep it like that.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[Devil7]

This is possibly the most overused and ineffective argument I've seen in any sort discussion. The fact that so few people actually reach the level of play where they're in a $5000 match invalidates your point completely. Besides, I didn't LOSE $5000. I just didn't win it. Also, I'm sick of hearing that Sakurai didn't want this game to be competitive. He wanted it to be a party game, but that by no means is a reason to say it's not competitive. You are just one of many who can't adjust to no wavedashing, so you blame the designer, not your own lack of ability.[/rant]

First off I didn't compete melee competativly. I played it a lot and kept up with the tourney scene but never actually played. I do however play brawl competativly. And since you think the $5000 deal is ineffective lets go with something more on your level. You pay $50 to go to a high level tourney were you could win $500. Lots of people attended these types of tourneys. And don't get sick of hearing people saying Sakurai didn't want it to be a competetive game, because he actually did say it in an interview.

But back on topic, tripping does affect all players evenly. It's just that Snake happens to have a more campy style of play, where Marth or Sonic needs to actively chase their opponents. if you want to lower your chances of tripping, play Snake. Also Snake has a higher chance of winning a $5000 tournament, because he's good. And you won't trip.

Ok you just contridicted yourself in the same paragraph. If you character needs to dash dance then you get more chances to trip and thus trip. If you snakedash then you never trip. A perfect example of how it doesn't evenly affect all characters.

Just like how football fans are affected by the decisions coaches and player make, because somehow diehard fans associate their own feelings of success and failure with their respective teams. Which is why professional sports are so popular. Which is why sports players get paid more than teachers and firemen. Which is sad.

The players of smash are more like the actual players of football. If a coach comes up with a game plan then we do. So don't say it doesn't affect us other than our feelings. If sakurai never made another smash then it would affect us right since we play it, just as if they shut down the NFL. And no more football references please.

 

[Tristan Fattest of All Kids]

http://z11.invisionfree.com/ssb_atp/index.php?act=idx
That is what will take out tripping.

 

[The Pimp]

It's part of the game but it is absolutely terrible, even if your playing with your friends it sucks to die (possibly lose) due to the fact the game decided to trip you and you get dominated by a fsmash. It does effect the game. I doubt there will be a patch to be rid of it in brawl but I'm hoping they take it out next game.

Also if I was in a tournament I would be quite angred and frustrated if I lost due to tripping.

 

[Oathblivion]

If you could take tripping out, then you could do all sorts of things with the physics engine. It would only be a matter of time before someone came and made a code for Melee physics. As much as I dislike tripping and the deletion of some of our ATs (coughwavedashcough), I would very much like to play Brawl rather than Melee 2.0. Now to go commit suicide for bringing up "Melee 2.0" again...

EDIT: AT Project? Hmmm.

 

[Yuna]

To reiterate:
We do not use cheat devices (which basically hack the game in Competitive fighting. We just don't. Because that's not playing the game, that's shaping the game into what we want. And where will it end? Should we try to find codes for introducing more gravity? More hitstun? More shieldstun? Less aerial lag? Remove the Ness/Lucas infinite grab release? Yoshi's grab release?

Where does it end? We play the game we're dealt. We can only changes it around by banning things, once we start hacking it, we're no longer playing the game the way it was programmed but creating a *******ized version to our own liking.

 

[Spartan1841]

No tripping with action replay? Thats kinda useless play the game the way it is I cant believe people whine when they trip and lose its part of the game DEAL WITH IT

 

[Devil7]

To reiterate:
We do not use cheat devices (which basically hack the game in Competitive fighting. We just don't. Because that's not playing the game, that's shaping the game into what we want. And where will it end? Should we try to find codes for introducing more gravity? More hitstun? More shieldstun? Less aerial lag? Remove the Ness/Lucas infinite grab release? Yoshi's grab release?

Where does it end? We play the game we're dealt. We can only changes it around by banning things, once we start hacking it, we're no longer playing the game the way it was programmed but creating a *******ized version to our own liking.

I completey agree. There is absolutly no way it will ever happen. Im saying if Sakurai gets enough negative feed back it won't be in the next one if there is one.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

To reiterate:
We do not use cheat devices (which basically hack the game in Competitive fighting. We just don't. Because that's not playing the game, that's shaping the game into what we want. And where will it end? Should we try to find codes for introducing more gravity? More hitstun? More shieldstun? Less aerial lag? Remove the Ness/Lucas infinite grab release? Yoshi's grab release?

Where does it end? We play the game we're dealt. We can only changes it around by banning things, once we start hacking it, we're no longer playing the game the way it was programmed but creating a *******ized version to our own liking.

Understood, but I disagree.

I think that it's stupid that such things aren't done. Look, in sports things are always changing to fix problems with the way it was played before. Measurements, equipment, all kinds of things. I COMPLETELY agree that a line must be drawn, but in this situation, it's stupid.

I get that it isn;t done, but maybe it's time something WAS done?

 

[DragonBlade]

To reiterate:
We do not use cheat devices (which basically hack the game in Competitive fighting. We just don't. Because that's not playing the game, that's shaping the game into what we want. And where will it end? Should we try to find codes for introducing more gravity? More hitstun? More shieldstun? Less aerial lag? Remove the Ness/Lucas infinite grab release? Yoshi's grab release?

Where does it end? We play the game we're dealt. We can only changes it around by banning things, once we start hacking it, we're no longer playing the game the way it was programmed but creating a *******ized version to our own liking.

Where will it end? Gravity, hitstun, shieldstun, and tripping are the only things that we can foresee manipulating at the moment, the other mechanics are much harder to locate in memory. Gravity is fully under our control already, though we are waiting on hitstun and shieldstun to do balance testing to determine exactly what values work best.

Even if we could control more than these, it would only add to the game providing they were tested thoroughly. Also, the limiting factor on how many new things could be added would be technical restraints. People have to actually find the corresponding memory locations before we worry about whether or not it is a good idea to add it. Compared to how many changes that we want to add, the amount of changes that actually work will be small, so its really nowhere near having everything to our liking.

Also, you make it seem like implementing everything to our liking is a bad thing. Do you realize how many gaming communities already have mods where they do this? Some of them are quite popular too. Is the smash community somehow inferior in a way that prevents us from doing the same?

I really don't understand why you are so against this. You just seem to say that we don't do this, but you are not really saying why. Also, please clarify who is this "we" you are referring to. We already have interest from competitive players (PC Chris, Fast Like Tree, Xelic to name a few), so "we" obviously doesn't mean all competitive players.

One more thing, the gecko can function as a cheat device, but that is just our tool. The end result will likely be a wii executable that would launch Brawl with the changes applied. This is what people would be using. Cheats are usually for getting and unfair advantage, whereas the result of this does not have that capability.

 

[Cooper736]

I think that it's stupid that such things aren't done. Look, in sports things are always changing to fix problems with the way it was played before. Measurements, equipment, all kinds of things. I COMPLETELY agree that a line must be drawn, but in this situation, it's stupid.

Also, you make it seem like implementing everything to our liking is a bad thing. Do you realize how many gaming communities already have mods where they do this? Some of them are quite popular too. Is the smash community somehow inferior in a way that prevents us from doing the same?

I really don't understand why you are so against this. You just seem to say that we don't do this, but you are not really saying why. Also, please clarify who is this "we" you are referring to. We already have interest from competitive players (PC Chris, Fast Like Tree, Xelic to name a few), so "we" obviously doesn't mean all competitive players.

The reason that any logical person should be against altering the game so much is that it doesn't just turn Brawl into Melee 2.0, it completely destroys any sense of randomness that inherently comes with a fighting game. Since no one seemed to like my football analogy (I have yet to understand why, considering that it made perfect sense), I'll throw out one a bit closer to home: Pokemon.

I belong to a competitive Pokemon community, and we've had a debate similar to this one. For those of you familiar with the game, you'll of course remember critical hits, and how they can turn any well-thought-out strategy into a complete disaster. However, they only happen 6.25% of the time; not nearly enough that it's a serious problem, but just so frequently that every time an attack does twice as much damage as it should, you remember it. Well, some people got the idea that it would be a good idea to ban critical hits from online simulators. Many agreed, but ultimately that idea was shot down. Why? Because removing luck from the game would make it a mathematical equation, not a strategy game. If Garchomp will always deal 55% to Cresselia with Outrage (I have no idea if this is actually true), then there's no point in trying to battle around that limitation.

The same thing applies to Brawl, and to competitive Smash in general. By altering the physics of the game, you want to make it procedural. Marth attacks Fox, Fox gets hit, and gets comboed from 0-60% because of hitstun (again, no idea if this is true). Whereas in real life, he could DI out, or get hit back enough to make one of a million other decisions. Smash is a game of randomness, and tripping is just one small example of that. To remove tripping is just a step away from essentially turning every match into a pre-determined story.

 

[DragonBlade]

The reason that any logical person should be against altering the game so much is that it doesn't just turn Brawl into Melee 2.0, it completely destroys any sense of randomness that inherently comes with a fighting game. Since no one seemed to like my football analogy (I have yet to understand why, considering that it made perfect sense), I'll throw out one a bit closer to home: Pokemon.

I belong to a competitive Pokemon community, and we've had a debate similar to this one. For those of you familiar with the game, you'll of course remember critical hits, and how they can turn any well-thought-out strategy into a complete disaster. However, they only happen 6.25% of the time; not nearly enough that it's a serious problem, but just so frequently that every time an attack does twice as much damage as it should, you remember it. Well, some people got the idea that it would be a good idea to ban critical hits from online simulators. Many agreed, but ultimately that idea was shot down. Why? Because removing luck from the game would make it a mathematical equation, not a strategy game. If Garchomp will always deal 55% to Cresselia with Outrage (I have no idea if this is actually true), then there's no point in trying to battle around that limitation.

The same thing applies to Brawl, and to competitive Smash in general. By altering the physics of the game, you want to make it procedural. Marth attacks Fox, Fox gets hit, and gets comboed from 0-60% because of hitstun (again, no idea if this is true). Whereas in real life, he could DI out, or get hit back enough to make one of a million other decisions. Smash is a game of randomness, and tripping is just one small example of that. To remove tripping is just a step away from essentially turning every match into a pre-determined story.

If you think some gravity, hitstun, shieldstun, and trip probability changes will make the game Melee 2.0 you clearly have never played Melee competitively. Thus, you cannot see why people are not satisfied with Brawl.

And let me get this straight, you are criticizing me for applying Melee ideas into Brawl but you are saying we should apply principles from Pokemon? Pokemon is a better model for Brawl to follow than Melee??? Wow, I hope that was a joke that I missed or something.

 

[Devil7]

The reason that any logical person should be against altering the game so much is that it doesn't just turn Brawl into Melee 2.0, it completely destroys any sense of randomness that inherently comes with a fighting game. Since no one seemed to like my football analogy (I have yet to understand why, considering that it made perfect sense), I'll throw out one a bit closer to home: Pokemon.

I belong to a competitive Pokemon community, and we've had a debate similar to this one. For those of you familiar with the game, you'll of course remember critical hits, and how they can turn any well-thought-out strategy into a complete disaster. However, they only happen 6.25% of the time; not nearly enough that it's a serious problem, but just so frequently that every time an attack does twice as much damage as it should, you remember it. Well, some people got the idea that it would be a good idea to ban critical hits from online simulators. Many agreed, but ultimately that idea was shot down. Why? Because removing luck from the game would make it a mathematical equation, not a strategy game. If Garchomp will always deal 55% to Cresselia with Outrage (I have no idea if this is actually true), then there's no point in trying to battle around that limitation.

The same thing applies to Brawl, and to competitive Smash in general. By altering the physics of the game, you want to make it procedural. Marth attacks Fox, Fox gets hit, and gets comboed from 0-60% because of hitstun (again, no idea if this is true). Whereas in real life, he could DI out, or get hit back enough to make one of a million other decisions. Smash is a game of randomness, and tripping is just one small example of that. To remove tripping is just a step away from essentially turning every match into a pre-determined story.

Ok let me make this clear, I don't actually believe they will take ok tripping, would it be a good idea yes. Will it ever happen, no. Basiclly what yuna said was right, its a cheating device and it won't be used. I agree, but tripping is still the worst idea EVER. What I'm saying is that maybe Sakurai will get the picture and make a smash 4 competetive style without tripping. And no randomness does not come inherently in a fighting game, its obviouse now that you don't ever play these types of games or you would know otherwise. The reason no one liked you football analogy was because it was inaccurate thats all. By taking out random stuff you make the game based on skill and skill alone. This is the reason tourneys don't play with items and why tripping sucks. The better player should always win.

 

[itsameSMB]

Remember that if you "solve" one problem, you usually cause another.

 

[Flayl]

Remember that if you "solve" one problem, you usually cause another.

Excuse me if I fail to see the point of your post. Random control-stick related tripping wasn't added for stability purposes.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Cooper, Brawl is not like your football, or Pokemon, in that it's a very unique fighter. Anyone who has played fighting games in the past will agree that any random occurance that offsets your game and induces a potential loss is not good. Tripping *should* be removed if possible. I can understand randomness in a game like Pokemon. I can understand randomness in card games, board games, D&D... But in a fighter it's unacceptable! I don't uderstand why you're arguing against this; you clearly have no clue what makes competative fighters competative. Have you ever seen Boxing matches where onlookers can randomly reach in and trip one of the fighters?

I do agree that without randomness games become less fun and more robotic, but here's something to consider:

In counterstrike, if you crouch and sit still, your crosshair becomes very small and accurate. If you fire a single shot while crounching, that shot will *always* hit where you aimed. If you run around like a madman while shooting, there's a *chance* you will hit home. It is *your* fault for not hitting the target if you didn't take the time to aim properly. But there's a chance you will hit them regardless, which is random, and makes it more interesting.

The reason why tripping is not a good thing to have in a game like Brawl is because (besides comboing and spacing) you are being punished for *no* reason. You did nothing to deserve the trip, and it hits you whenever it pleases. In counterstrike the random bullet-fire is acceptable because you are making a trade-off. In Brawl it is not because there is no trade off; you're being penalized for *****NO REASON*****.

In pokemon randomness is ok, because it follows more of a random card-game, luck-of-the-draw style. Brawl is a fighter, which means players need more in their arsenel than just 'selecting this move, hoping it works'. Once you understand spacing, and the flow of the game, you will understand why randomness is simply not good!

And according to you, adding randomness makes a game... a game? Math has no place in gaming? Excuse me, have you heard of Sudoku, Billiards, or Chess?

 

[Devil7]

Cooper, Brawl is not like your football, or Pokemon, in that it's a very unique fighter. Anyone who has played fighting games in the past will agree that any random occurance that offsets your game and induces a potential loss is not good. Tripping *should* be removed if possible. I can understand randomness in a game like Pokemon. I can understand randomness in card games, board games, D&D... But in a fighter it's unacceptable! I don't uderstand why you're arguing against this; you clearly have no clue what makes competative fighters competative. Have you ever seen Boxing matches where onlookers can randomly reach in and trip one of the fighters?

I do agree that without randomness games become less fun and more robotic, but here's something to consider:

In counterstrike, if you crouch and sit still, your crosshair becomes very small and accurate. If you fire a single shot while crounching, that shot will *always* hit where you aimed. If you run around like a madman while shooting, there's a *chance* you will hit home. It is *your* fault for not hitting the target if you didn't take the time to aim properly. But there's a chance you will hit them regardless, which is random, and makes it more interesting.

The reason why tripping is not a good thing to have in a game like Brawl is because (besides comboing and spacing) you are being punished for *no* reason. You did nothing to deserve the trip, and it hits you whenever it pleases. In counterstrike the random bullet-fire is acceptable because you are making a trade-off. In Brawl it is not because there is no trade off; you're being penalized for *****NO REASON*****.

In pokemon randomness is ok, because it follows more of a random card-game, luck-of-the-draw style. Brawl is a fighter, which means players need more in their arsenel than just 'selecting this move, hoping it works'. Once you understand spacing, and the flow of the game, you will understand why randomness is simply not good!

And according to you, adding randomness makes a game... a game? Math has no place in gaming? Excuse me, have you heard of Sudoku, Billiards, or Chess?

ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTLY, will it ever happen, like a snow balls chance in hell. Maybe at local tourneys but not on a high level unfortunatly.

 

[AbsoluteZero255]

Just an opinion about moveset swapping:

I think moveset swapping is just a way of getting glitches.

 

[ShengNu]

i dont think the tripping is that big a deal as many make it out to be... normally if i ever trip i see it ocur but i dont get hit cause im already holding a direction for the control stick so my char rolls... tripping isnt that serious..

 

[Cooper736]

And let me get this straight, you are criticizing me for applying Melee ideas into Brawl but you are saying we should apply principles from Pokemon? Pokemon is a better model for Brawl to follow than Melee??? Wow, I hope that was a joke that I missed or something.

Clearly you do not understand the point of an analogy. I am comparing two similar games, not relating them. No, I do not think Pokemon is a model for Brawl, but I do think the physics of chance in the two is comparable.

Let me put some anger to rest here, and say that I do in no way think tripping is a good idea. I hate tripping, and no strategic value comes from it. However, there's no way someone so invested in the Smash games as Sakurai would put something as ridiculous as tripping in the game for no reason. The fact that no one knows why tripping exists is no reason to remove it from play. If that were the case, the Ice Climbers would still be the character you only use because you got it from Random.

Hope that satisfies some of you. I share your opinion of tripping, I just don't believe in removing a chance physic because it doesn't make sense as of now.

 

[Thingy Person]

Let me put some anger to rest here, and say that I do in no way think tripping is a good idea. I hate tripping, and no strategic value comes from it. However, there's no way someone so invested in the Smash games as Sakurai would put something as ridiculous as tripping in the game for no reason. The fact that no one knows why tripping exists is no reason to remove it from play. If that were the case, the Ice Climbers would still be the character you only use because you got it from Random.

Oh, please. A completely random event that occurs 1/100 of the time when you tap your analog stick is supposed to be an integral part of the game's mechanics?

We know exactly why it's there, but it's so ridiculous that no one dares to be sure.

 

[Dantarion]

Tripping = Balls.

YOU WANTED TO DASH!

SAKURAI SAYS **** YOU!