No tripping with Action Replay

[Darkfur]

And there isn't an action replay for Wii...

We can assume that they did simple file swaps.

FALSE

I'm pretty sure there's a thread floating around that shows an Action Replay for Wii. Can't search for it cause the engine sucks.

TRUE

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149371&highlight=Action+Replay

 

[Senshuu]

Whee, turn off moves with invincibility frames and very few chances to mess you up.

You know, in golf they can't turn off wind so the ball has less a chance of flying into somebody's eye.

(Weird analogy, but try to get what I'm saying.)

 

[Yuna]

Pray tell, what in the video tells you they used a cheat device? In fact, I saw it mentioned that they "swapped some files around", meaning they most probably hacked it. For one thing, the characters actually stretched. This never happens when you use moveswap codes in other games.

For another, Competitive Gaming never uses cheat devices in Competitive Play. They either don't hold tournaments in broken games or they suck it up and play it the way it was programmed.

 

[R3Dirkulous]

I think senshuu makes a very good point. Athletes play with outside factors every day such as football. What if all of a sudden in the 4th quarter it starts snowing and your down 14 points?? Or what if its on the last freakin drive of the game?? Outside factor my friend, it makes the game more fun..I'd even go as far to say more competitive (gonna get nailed for that). You gotta be ready for the unthinkable and recover when necessary. A great Qb retired today by the name of Brett Favre, Imagine if he complained about the weather LOL.
Also, if you guys are gonna make a big deal about join dates...then im up sh** creek. I've played smash bros since its N64 debut, but just becuase I just now joined the forums does not make me less skilled at the game. Brawl has gotten me extremely hyped and so naturally I joined a forum to display my excitement.
Piece guyz!

 

[strider2k]

No major serious tournament hosted by MLG, smashboards, or whatever will ever endorse hacked or action replay games. Hacked games are a liability they want to avoid. What if the provider of the hacked game added +5% damage to Mario's downsmash secretly? Things like that are what tournament directors want to avoid. By using action replay, we are basically telling the Halo 3 fanboys that our game is flawed and needs to be fixed. One thing I learned from a job as a programmer is REGRESSION TESTING. Adding a subtle change may have a ripple effect of the whole product. What if the tripping algorithm ties with the random number generator that determines the stale move reduction algorithms.

 

[Ti11erTheKi11er]

It doesn't seem it happens A mess load of times just once in a great while...

 

[Yuna]

I don't understand your mindset. Are you saying you shouldn't modify the game because it wasn't an option intentionally put in the game by the god of Smash Himself, and therefore isn't considered a "canonical" way to play? I'm sure the true competitive scene would unanimously agree to disable random tripping if there were such an option. Should we not still disable if the option wasn't granted directly by the smash developers? If anything so uncontrollable can upset a match so greatly, it should be removed if possible, and we may have the capability to.

Competitive gamers never modify the code of games to suit their needs. It's not done. Where would we stop? Should we also modify the falling speeds? Modify ceiling heights for balance? Modify characters so they become more balanced?

No, we set down rules and ban things, but we do not hack the game.

1. Tripping doesn't come up alot
2. Tripping has actually helped me more that it has screwed me over.
3. It does come second nature like Xsyven had said. You trip, you tech out of it right away.
4. I lol at people's join date showing that they joined SWF because they heard it was the place to talk about brawl.

That's all I can think of right now.

1. 1 out of every 100 dashes. Do you know much people dash? A lot. In every tournament, statistically, every single player who makes it to the Top10 should have tripped at least a good 20-40 times depending on how many sets they had to play.
2. How so? And just because you have never suffered greatly from tripping doesn't mean no one will.
3. Doesn't mean the game just punished you for doing something as natural as dashing. It'll also screw up combos, edgeguards, approaches, etc., etc., etc. It's not just what you don't get punished for, it's also what you just got scewed out of.
4. I don't lol at join dates. I lol at stupidity no matter where it comes from (this is not directed at you).

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

1. 1 out of every 100 dashes. Do you know much people dash? A lot. In every tournament, statistically, every single player who makes it to the Top10 should have tripped at least a good 20-40 times depending on how many sets they had to play.

That number of dashes drops exponentially when the player realizes running in place is not "awesome mindgames psyching your foe out".

 

[XtremeCJ]

Haha how is this supposed to work? Use AR in a tournament? :D No way!

 

[Yuna]

That number of dashes drops exponentially when the player realizes running in place is not "awesome mindgames psyching your foe out".

You do realize you need to, you know, dash normally, too, right? Not everyone uses dash dancing.

In the average set, you play 2-3 matches. In each match, you dash (not dash dance) an average of, say, 20-50 times depending on who you are. In that one set, you're statistically liable to trip once.

In an average 3 sets, you're statistically liable to trip at least twice.

 

[HugS]

nah, too much trouble to go through

You've never been to a tournament I'm assuming...

It's also too much trouble to set up the stocks, time, items, stages, and other things that would make a game more competitively playable, right?

I'm not saying the two are completely comparable, I'm just noticing that the majority of people posting so far have never been to a smash tournament and really do not know what they are talking about.

 

[Tajem]

Tripping really doesn't seem like that big of a deal. At the very least, people are still going to play competitively.

Besides, I doubt the minor drawbacks of tripping will cost someone a whole set.

 

[Sculelos]

You do realize you need to, you know, dash normally, too, right? Not everyone uses dash dancing.

In the average set, you play 2-3 matches. In each match, you dash (not dash dance) an average of, say, 20-50 times depending on who you are. In that one set, you're statistically liable to trip once.

In an average 3 sets, you're statistically liable to trip at least twice.

Yea... trips aren't really a big deal though. If you trip in front of a charged f-smash guess what? You get invinability frames so you can tech out of it. If you trip in an edgeguard they will recover and you will need to knock them off again. I can see how some people dislike this but it adds a little bit of depth in strategy.

Really I don't see how tripping could change the outcome off a match unless it was super close and you tripped at the worst possible moment. But the chances of this happening are very unlikely.

 

[DRaGZ]

I feel like that...maybe a tripping was put in to promote air battles a lot more and more approaches using jumps rather than dashes. I mean, I do remember very early on that Sakurai wanted to put a lot more emphasis on air battles, maybe this is one of the ways he wanted to encourage that. I dunno really.

In any case, that only makes sense if air tripping doesn't exist (I'm still not sure if it does or not, I need to play it/see it for myself).

Meh.

 

[Yuna]

Yea... trips aren't really a big deal though. If you trip in front of a charged f-smash guess what? You get invinability frames so you can tech out of it. If you trip in an edgeguard they will recover and you will need to knock them off again. I can see how some people dislike this but it adds a little bit of depth in strategy.

Really I don't see how tripping could change the outcome off a match unless it was super close and you tripped at the worst possible moment. But the chances of this happening are very unlikely.

Tripping really doesn't seem like that big of a deal. At the very least, people are still going to play competitively.

Besides, I doubt the minor drawbacks of tripping will cost someone a whole set.

Both players have a lot of damage. One players get knocked out and is about to get edgeguarded to death. Insert trip. The player recovers and wins the match. Last game in a set.

Or someone was about to win, but tripped and the opponent proceeds to win despite being really far behind through a comeback. Doesn't mean the other player wasn't supposed to win to begin with.

It does not add depth or strategy. It adds stupidity. We'll now have to constantly be on the lookout for trips. We'll also dash less in fear of it.

Tripping is like teching. You're not entirely invincible for the entirity of the action and the opponent can also tech chase. What's stupid about this is that you're being punished for something you shouldn't be punished for!

From a competitive gaming point of view, tripping is ludicrous. You might not think it is, but the Competitive players do. Ask any competitive player of any game and they'll scoff.

 

[Tajem]

The point I was trying to make was that it's not going to happen often enough to really worry about it.

In other words, this scenario you just cooked up has a slim chance of ever occuring. On top of that, tripping is so random that the other play may not react fast enough to punish you for it.

 

[shadydentist]

Tripping is an indefensibly horrible idea. Nevertheless, its uncommon enough so that its annoying, but usually not game-changing. I think this may be something we all just have to deal with.

 

[Yuna]

The point I was trying to make was that it's not going to happen often enough to really worry about it.

In other words, this scenario you just cooked up has a slim chance of ever occuring. On top of that, tripping is so random that the other play may not react fast enough to punish you for it.

The animation of tripping is fast. The time it takes from tripping to getting up is not. It's not hard to punish.

Trips are statistically set to happen once in at least every 4 games a competitive player plays. That's enough already since it's a random occurence (with odds) that punishes you for something you really shouldn't be punished for. And the cost can be great due to no fault of the player except they decided to dash.

 

[Yigguth]

tl;dr
I talk to the guy that made the moveswap vids frequently, and he did it by swapping the moveset files.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

We should also action replay it so Peach only pulls normal weak veggies, Judgement is only a 5 (we don't need those random self damage 1s or instant KO 9s), Luigi's green missile never misfires, and King Dedede can only throw Waddle Dees.

There we go, no random chances screwing up the super ultra skill fest that is Smash Bros.

 

[Mechageo]

We should also action replay it so Peach only pulls normal weak veggies, Judgement is only a 5 (we don't need those random self damage 1s or instant KO 9s), Luigi's green missile never misfires, and King Dedede can only throw Waddle Dees.

There we go, no random chances screwing up the super ultra skill fest that is Smash Bros.

Yeah, lets make the Knee of Death easier, too.

Stuff Yuna said in this thread.

Your points may be valid, but you certainly like to be offensive, don't you?

 

[Sculelos]

The animation of tripping is fast. The time it takes from tripping to getting up is not. It's not hard to punish.

Trips are statistically set to happen once in at least every 4 games a competitive player plays. That's enough already since it's a random occurence (with odds) that punishes you for something you really shouldn't be punished for. And the cost can be great due to no fault of the player except they decided to dash.

Perhaps but thats just the random factor that you have to account for. I'm more then willing to accept it. I feel sorry for those who are upset about it being in Brawl.

 

[billywill]

I think tripping has some type of reason for it. I mean Saukrai worked hard to balance the game...Adding a random factor like that would be blasphemy. Hey maybe I'm wrong but my goal is to find everything about tripping once I get Brawl (after I unlock all characters, beat SSE, beat all event, target practice, all trophys, ect.) lol

 

[Yuna]

I think tripping has some type of reason for it. I mean Saukrai worked hard to balance the game...Adding a random factor like that would be blasphemy. Hey maybe I'm wrong but my goal is to find everything about tripping once I get Brawl (after I unlock all characters, beat SSE, beat all event, target practice, all trophys, ect.) lol

There is. He thought it'd be more fun. He talks about tripping on the Dojo, so we know it was done on purpose.

 

[Riolu]

If tripping was a really big problem maybe trip-less tournaments would become standard. But it's not a very big problem.

 

[Igneous42]

Using a cheating device in tournaments = dumb. I don't care if adding tripping was a dumb concept or not. It's in the game, part of Brawl deal with it.

 

[Wiwiweb]

There is. He thought it'd be more fun. He talks about tripping on the Dojo, so we know it was done on purpose.

Never saw that. Where ?

 

[Yuna]

Never saw that. Where ?

It's in one of the updates IIRC. I just can't seem to find it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway, he didn't specifically say "Because I think it'd be more fun" but since he talked about it, he must've put it in there. And what other possible reason would there be? He could hardly have thought it'd make the game more competitive.

 

[Wiwiweb]

Oh you're right, I found it :

You’re gonna slip! Trust me, you’re GONNA slip!

It's not a joke ^^ It's the banana update.


Seriously, you meant this ?

Increased likelihood of slipping

Link.

 

[GhostAnime]

i dont mind the idea of using AR to remove tripping. i'm sure if Sakurai added a random explosion, people would be singing a different song.

 

[SGX]

I actually wouldn't mind if No-Tripping via AR became a widely known standard. ESPECIALLY if the Japanese adopted it. (which is very unlikely)

It's like saying to Sakurai: "Hey, we need to hack your beloved game to make it playable on any decent level."

Which might just tell him something..

 

[Yuna]

Oh you're right, I found it :
It's not a joke ^^ It's the banana update.
Seriously, you meant this ?
Link.

Yeah those. They prove that Sakura intentionally inserted random "slipping" into the game. It's not a glitch.

So why would he do it? A big FU to all competitive players? Or maybe it's his misguided idea of "fun".

 

[Tristan_win]

Sakurai has publicly said he doesn't want brawl be competitive, he's clearly added tripping to make the game more random, and worst yet he removed L canceling. Clearly Sakurai doesn't like us of the smash competitive community and hope we will just play the game in the small view point he design it to be played. This goes against everything the smashboards is meant to represent and on those ground he should be ignored.


Personally I really don't see any problem with hacking the game open and ripping the hazarded tripping from it's core. My only concern would be if we did this would trip able attacks lose there tripping properties?

Also some pointed out the MLG wouldn't accept us if we used a cheating device well I think a game that has a random luck fact that leaves you completely open to get killed wouldn't be very popular and they might see adding brawl to their list would be a waste of space.

We don't need the MLG to live as a competitive community and we don't need Sakurai.

 

[Tyr_03]

Although random tripping is really stupid, induced tripping from certain moves will doubtlessly prove to be an important factor in competitive play. Were it possible to turn off random tripping and leave in induced tripping I suppose I would support it whole heartedly but at the moment I find it very unlikely that the widespread competitive community would accept this way around the problem. Bottom line is that either random tripping will be solved by some sort of adv. technique in the future or Brawl simply will not be the same calibur of competitive game as melee was. Any random factor in a game reduces its competitive viability. This is why we do not use all stages for melee competitions. I doubt AR or anything like it will ever be the solution.

 

[Yuna]

Although random tripping is really stupid, induced tripping from certain moves will doubtlessly prove to be an important factor in competitive play. Were it possible to turn off random tripping and leave in induced tripping I suppose I would support it whole heartedly but at the moment I find it very unlikely that the widespread competitive community would accept this way around the problem. Bottom line is that either random tripping will be solved by some sort of adv. technique in the future or Brawl simply will not be the same calibur of competitive game as melee was. Any random factor in a game reduces its competitive viability. This is why we do not use all stages for melee competitions. I doubt AR or anything like it will ever be the solution.

Induced tripping is actually less useful since most of those moves are combomoves usually. It's only when you manage to induce a trip at 70% when your move would've launched them too far to combo that it's useful and even then, it can be teched out of/attacked out of/etc. But it's a mindgame and opens up for a tech-chase, though.

It's just that I'd rather prefer to have a guaranteed combo after my D-tilt.

 

[firedragon_jing]

OK, I don't get this, the whole point of NO ITEMS in a competetive match is so someone doesn't get a lucky break and wins the match, to make it more even. With tripping this causes the unfair matches to return, giving the chance for someone to luck out at the last second and win the match. This is going to cause a lot of controversy.

 

[Thingy Person]

Delete this post.

 

[TheRooster]

There is. He thought it'd be more fun. He talks about tripping on the Dojo, so we know it was done on purpose.

/argument

I'm pretty sure he was thinking about making a great game for everyone. If he wanted a game for just compettetive smashers, he would have had a ton of clones (like Dr Mario and Falco from Melee), a whole set of stages that were clones of battlefield and final destination, and a fully functional leaderboard.

Seems as though he was leaning the other way.....

Edit: Also, this is not attack on "compettitves" from a "casual"; I just think that the developers were more concerned about millions of Wii's that have been sold, rather than the sect of gamers that play this game for keeps

 

[strider2k]

Gustav in Ratatouille said "anyone can cook". I guess Sakurai is saying "anyone can play". Without MLG, shoryuken, or any other large tournament organizer, how else are we going to propel Brawl to the mainstream. It can't be just "host your tournament in your mom's garage" type of thing. The best we can do is to live with it. If Azen, SepirothKen, Isai, or <insert_expert_name_here> loses to me in a tournament because of tripping, then we have problems.

 

[WastingPenguins]

If Azen, SepirothKen, Isai, or <insert_expert_name_here> loses to me in a tournament because of tripping, then we have problems.

No one is worried about a Ken or an Azen losing to you because of tripping-- they're worried about Ken losing to Azen (or whoever) because of tripping. Based on the many many Brawl vids I've seen, you usually trip at least once, maybe twice a match. Some of those same vids have me pretty convinced that tripping CAN cause you to lose a stock if you're really unlucky, and losing a stock can easily decide the outcome of the match.

Honestly I think tripping will be the biggest thing to hold Brawl back from reaching the competitive limelight of Melee. The first time someone gets ****** over and loses an important tourney match (with hundreds or even thousands of dollars on the line) all because they tripped at an unfortunate time... well I think the community is gonna have to take a long hard look at the game to say the least.