NMSC Ruleset (Open Discussion Begun) Updated April 1st

[tw1n]

Lol ya Brawl is awesome I can't wait to see who becomes the best of the best in Brawl...

 

[Alphabravo]

What about some of the other stages such as the melee stages that made it through? Do you think we should keep with what was allowed in melee and ban what was previously banned as well?

Well, not exactly. Some of the melee stages (particularly Pokemon Stadium 1) have been resized or changed in some way. We still need to do some more testing before we decide.

In my opinion it seems more like chess haha.

That is exactly what I've been thinking. That's why I told you guys on Saturday that Brawl has not become noob friendly, despite what many seem to believe.

 

[tw1n]

Ya its not even close to noob friendly. I read a small article coming from a pro melee gamer (cannot remember which tho) that said Brawl will not have as big of a population as melee did for quite some time. And its not because its worse, its actually much better. but its because almost everyone who joined the competitive scene in Melee within the past year or 2 came in with a basic template for each character. They wanted to use Falco, they had a good idea of how to play Falco thanks to others. And none of them are "ready" to learn from scratch. None of them are prepared to see what its like without a technical game right off the bat.

I reworded it alot but its still the basic concept. Sad huh?

 

[Alphabravo]

Funny, I just barely came into the melee scene two years ago and I'm more than willing to move on to Brawl. I can see why people would want to do that though.

Also, I wouldn't worry about there not being enough neutral stages; we have plenty. Besides, if it weren't for Dedede there would be more stages that aren't banned.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Has anyone considered just banning Dedede's chaingrab? Just a thought, like the IC's wobbling, or Mewtwo's Soul Stunner.

 

[Alphabravo]

Has anyone considered just banning Dedede's chaingrab? Just a thought, like the IC's wobbling, or Mewtwo's Soul Stunner.

I don't think so, here's why:

First off, Dedede's chaingrab is really only overpowered on stages that have walls. Sure, he can chaingrab people on other stages as well but the chaingrab doesn't last forever. The real solution would be to ban stages that have walls or ban Dedede's chaingrab from being used against someone when they are against a wall. However, it has recently been brought to light that neutral A rapid attacks infinite against walls. This accounts for not only Dedede but others characters as well, such as Metaknight and Falco. What do we do? Ban all rapid A neutral attacks...I don't think so. I predict that stages with walls will end up being more commonly banned in tournaments than they did in Melee.

Edit: I forgot to include the fact that Dedede's chaingrab is also overpowered on stages that have walk off blastzones. This doesn't diminish my argument, however, seeing as how any player can easily gimp another player off the side of the stage through the use of throws, high knockback attacks, etc.

 

[tw1n]

Hmm... I have a gut feeling controllers are going to be thrown. Well hopefully not everyone decides to pick up Olimar lol. What other characters are immune to the chain grab?

 

[Kashakunaki]

So far it seems about 2/3 the cast of Brawl can be chain grabbed while 1/3 can't. Diddy can escape, Lucairo can escape, Olimar can escape, I think ZS Samus can escape, as well as a couple others.

The reason no more neutral stages haven't been brought up is because most of them were pretty obvious. I was going to go down the list of 41 stages but then everyone started throwing out random stages, so that flew out the window.

 

[tw1n]

Lol my bad. I was basing it off of smashbros.com stage order. But here's my input for them all (maybe it will help get things going)

Battlefiled - Obvious
Final Destination - Obvious
Delfino Plaza - counter pick 1v1 neutral 2v2
Luigi's Mansion - neutral 1v1 and 2v2
Mushroomy Kingdom - Haven't tried it
Mario Circuit - Banned 1v1 counter 2v2 maybe
Rumble Falls - I say banned... stupid moving stages lol
Bridge of Eldin - 1v1 banned i guess, 2v2 neutral
Halbred - I think neutral for both
Lylat Cruise - Neutral for both
Pokemon Stadium 2 - Tough one. Counter 1v1 neutral 2v2
Castle Siege - Banned 1v1, counter 2v2
Wario Ware - Tough call again. Counter for both
Distant Planet - Banned
Smashville - Neutral for both
New Pork City - OH GOD NO!
Skyworld - banned 1v1 counter 2v2
Super Mario Bros. - banned
Flat Zone 2 - banned
Pictochat - Neutral both (just my opinion remember)
Shadow Moses Island - BANNED
Hyrule Temple - Banned
Corneria - Counter for both
Rainbow Cruise - Banned! (I hate moving stages sorry)
Pokemon Stadium - Neutral for both

I took out all the stages I didn't get to play in. Just my opinion on alot of them so hopefully it will get things moving. Brawl is coming up fast

 

[Twin_A]

I think stages with walk off blast zones shouldn't be banned from tournaments just because of dedede. In my opinion it is the same concept of not getting grabbed by the IC's. Against a Falco or Falcon, if done properly, you could chain grab from zero to death. So the trick is not to get grabbed And thats not as hard as it sounds. My first match against Paul I only got grabbed maybe 1 or 2 times but avoided nearly all of his attempts.

Point in hand: Stages with walls either ban the stage or ban those moves in those stages. Walk off blast zones: Don't necessarily need to be banned.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

That wasn't exactly my approach there Paul, but I see your point. And I completely agree with Twin_A. The reason I said ban his chaingrab was because then stages like the Bridge of Eldin would be playable, or the Mario Kart one. Obviously you don't ban their neutral A attacks. I would think of that as in the last game. Fox can infinite ANYBODY on levels with walls, and not all of those stages are banned. PK Stadium's not, Corneria's not, Green Green's is not, etc.

And in response to your edit, all you have to do with Marth on Yoshi's Story in the last game is grab and F-smash. If you don't DI right on the very first f-smash that's tipped you die. Same thing with this game on smaller levels, you can be gimped, but if you are you basically set yourself up for it. Don't play near the edge of the stage.

 

[Alphabravo]

I think stages with walk off blast zones shouldn't be banned from tournaments just because of dedede. In my opinion it is the same concept of not getting grabbed by the IC's. Against a Falco or Falcon, if done properly, you could chain grab from zero to death. So the trick is not to get grabbed And thats not as hard as it sounds. My first match against Paul I only got grabbed maybe 1 or 2 times but avoided nearly all of his attempts.

Yes, that's true, but when I did manage to get a grab off it was instant death for you. That doesn't sound fair to me at all, seeing as how Dedede's chaingrab infinite is extremely easy to do once you get them against a wall. The point is, Fox's infinite shine and Ice Climber's wobbling in Melee weren't banned because they were difficult to pull off. Dedede's chaingrab, however, is easy to do. Not only that but neutral rapid A attacks are really easy to do as well; these lead to infinites against walls as well.

That wasn't exactly my approach there Paul, but I see your point. And I completely agree with Twin_A. The reason I said ban his chaingrab was because then stages like the Bridge of Eldin would be playable, or the Mario Kart one. Obviously you don't ban their neutral A attacks. I would think of that as in the last game. Fox can infinite ANYBODY on levels with walls, and not all of those stages are banned. PK Stadium's not, Corneria's not, Green Green's is not, etc.

That is true as well but those stages you mentioned don't exactly have vertical, "perfect" walls. First off, the only walls that spawn on pokemon stadium occur when the stage shifts to "fire" part. Only when the stage transforms to this particular part do walls that Fox can infinite on appear. The part of the stage does not last forever either, because the stage either shifts back to its original form or to another part.

The only walls that exist on Green Greens are the destructible boxes on the sides. These boxes can easily be destroyed, either intentionally or accidentally, rendering Fox's shine infinites useless at that point.

Though Corneria has a wall Fox cannot infinite off of it, therefore it is not banned.

That's why stages such as Princess Peach's Castle are banned. Because the walls remain and never disappear, go away, get destroyed, etc. Despite the fact that Fox's shine infintes are difficult to accomplish, these stages are banned regardless.

Stages that we have decided are currently banned because of Dedede's chaingrab involve either walls or blastzones that do not get destroyed, go away, disappear, etc. (with the exception of Shadow Moses; however, once the wall(s) are destroyed walk off blastzones appear).

Also, the fact that the Bridge of Eldin and Mario Kart stages are banned is not solely tied to Dedede's chaingrab infinite. Players can also camp on the edge of the stages with projectiles. Characters such as Pit, Falco, and Link could spam projectiles all day and rack up insane amounts of damage before being touched themselves. However, I know what everyone is thinking: Well...if they camp near the edges of the stage aren't they setting themselves up to get gimped? In many ways, yes. However, several slower characters such as Bowser, Dedede, and Donkey Kong will not only have a difficult time approaching said campers but will have an even tougher time "catching" them. Faster characters such as Fox could potentially spam their laser and then run away to the other side of the stage as soon as the enemy player gets too close.

And in response to your edit, all you have to do with Marth on Yoshi's Story in the last game is grab and F-smash. If you don't DI right on the very first f-smash that's tipped you die. Same thing with this game on smaller levels, you can be gimped, but if you are you basically set yourself up for it.

Yes, it is possible to be gimped that way in Melee, however, that kind of kill not only relies heavily on damage percents but the method at which the other player DI's as well. With proper DI that kind of kill can easily be avoided whereas on stages with walk off blastzones if the player is close enough to the edge and they get hit, grabbed and thrown, etc off the stage then NO amount of DI can save them.

Don't play near the edge of the stage

It is possible, however, a 1v1 competitive match just doesn't solely rely on the actions of just one player but both players that are participating. Yes, one player could attempt to avoid the edges, however, the other player could manipulate, mindgame, force, etc the other player to the edge of the stage and KO them. Everyone is vulnerable to manipulation. To further elaborate, people say that Chudat is cheap as hell with his chaingrabs/grab combos in melee and that it isn't fair. In response, other people say to stop complaining and just "avoid" getting grabbed. Well, ask anyone who has played Chudat and they'll tell you that it is nearly impossible to not get grabbed by his Ice Climbers. The point is, Chudat was able to find the weakness/opening in the opponent's playstyle and, therefore, take advantage of it.

I'll defend Dedede to the death.

 

[Twin_A]

I'll defend Dedede to the death.

I have a lot of respect for you Paul.

And yes that is true that once I got grabbed it was game over for my Link. So let me ask then, are we just going to ban the D3 chain grab if it can be used to walk you off the stage or infinite? Because I don't see a problem with his chain grab on stages like FD or Battlefield. It racks up decent damage getting them there, and it sets you up in an advantageous position with them off the stage and you having all the room in the world to retreat if needed.

 

[Alphabravo]

I have nothing against Dedede's chaingrab, only his infinites. I want Dedede's chaingrab to remain legal; that's why I'm debating. I'm providing reasons as to why the stages should be banned entirely as opposed to just banning his chaingrab.

Also, if we make the decision to only ban his chaingrab on stages that have walk off blastzones/walls then we also have to ban all rapid A neutral attacks on those stages as well. If we start to ban techniques left and right then it gets too messy.

 

[tw1n]

Also, if we make the decision to only ban his chaingrab on stages that have walk off blastzones/walls then we also have to ban all rapid A neutral attacks on those stages as well. If we start to ban techniques left and right then it gets too messy.

I understand what you mean there. With that I agree to walk off blast zones as banned at least in 1v1. But his chaingrab in itself should be respected. Oposite to that tho, his infinite neutral A against a wall should be banned. Thats why I feel shadow moses should be banned. It is too hard to kill someone in that stage

 

[Kashakunaki]

I was going to respond to Erich and Kyle but Paul pretty much did it for me.

I'm on his side of things.

Banning his chaingrab is ridiculous. That would be the same as banning all chaingrabbing in Melee just because it "easy racks up damage"

Walk off blastzones should be banned due to Dedede because it is an EASY kill. It doesn't take some elaborate predictation of DI and button input. It's just Z, dthrow, run, Z, dthrow, run, rinse and repeat. Banning a technique so that merely an extra stage or two can be played seems a little ridiculous to me.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Whoa there guys, it was only a suggestion. I don't own the game, and I haven't played it enough to produce an uber strong argument. I'm just throwing stuff out there. I also play character's that D3 can't chaingrab, so I'm not arguing either for it or against it, just a thought.

Gimps will always exist!! They rely only on DI, not damage. If you die at a small stage from a tipper with good DI, then you were too high. But if you don't DI right from Marth's first f-smash, you DI to your death. Now enough about the gimps, because I probably agree with you, just pointing out a fact.

Good way to word that Davis, I agree there. There are plenty of other stages to choose from. If you think of D3's chaingrab in terms of IC's in the last game, then that would make sense. They can chaingrab almost anyone on any level. I guess D3 kind of took that ability from them. They both have an inescapable chaingrab, but only on certain people. Hmmm...

 

[Alphabravo]

Actually, Ice Climber's also have a chaingrab in Brawl.

To point something out, Ice Climber's chaingrab infinite in Melee (wobbling) wasn't widely banned because the smash back room decided for it to remain legal; despite the fact that there infinite was impossible to escape from if done correctly. Also, it could be done to anyone on any stage. Dedede's chaingrab, though useful, cannot be done on every character and does not last forever. In addition, it is also possible to escape from his chaingrab.

Dedede's chaingrab= LEGAL

 

[tw1n]

Dedede's chaingrab= LEGAL

Agreed. Just walk off blastzone stages = banned. How many unbanned stages do we have so far?

 

[Twin_A]

the only difference is that IC's couldn't walk you off of the level and yes I know they could just rack up damage and smash.

Ok so we'll just find the stages to ban. All I know is Paul you are going to have a field day online with that grab haha

 

[Kashakunaki]

I think we've got a pretty workable list of stages at this point... I'll try update the first post this weekend, but no guarentees.

So, thoughts on 4 stock or 3 stock for teams?

 

[Twin_A]

hmm, tough call. I think 3 stocks for teams will work. Unless we find it easier to kill people in doubles.

 

[tw1n]

Ya I'm thinking 3 stocks. But lets test some more

 

[DuskMarthWater]

I wouldn't know. I've played the game once.

 

[Alphabravo]

the only difference is that IC's couldn't walk you off of the level and yes I know they could just rack up damage and smash.

Yes, Dedede's chaingrab does knock you off the stage, however, with the addition of instant sweet spotting and the fact that edgeguarding in this game is overall more difficult, knocking them off the stage doesn't seem to be that useful at this point (with the exception of characters that have tether recoveries; meaning they can be edgehogged, rendering their recovery in that situation almost useless).

 

[Alphabravo]

Sorry, double post. Smashboards was laggin on me.

Anyways, I think it's still a bit too early to decide whether doubles should be 3 or 4 stock. We still need to do more testing.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

I would agree with Paul on that.

 

[tw1n]

Well Brawl is just around the corner from being in all of our homes :D So more testing can be done even easier

 

[Kashakunaki]

Good thinking Olimar's tether recovery can't be ***** because he can't get CG =D!

I'm leaning toward four stock double matches, but I think a few more games are needed.

I need people to play Brawl with =(
I can't play it by myself. Stupid Japanese and their internet not working.

 

[Twin_A]

He can't get chain grabbed YET. I'm sure I will find a way to Cg him haha (or someone will)

 

[tw1n]

ya Sonic = god fast so hopefully I can pull it off :D If not... F*CK

 

[Kashakunaki]

Alright everyone, I updated the first post.

I'm really iffy about the neutral stages for teams, so if I could get more feedback on those that would be great.

In general I'd like you guys to look over that list veeeery carefully and let me know what you think.

 

[tw1n]

The new update seems pretty fair so far. But in as for Castle Siege on singles I vote banned.

And distant planet on doubles is a tough one but environmental hazards are pushing me away... more testing lol

 

[Kashakunaki]

We've hardly played on those two stages so that's why I was unsure.

 

[tw1n]

There is a "official" stage thread. Its pretty similar to how we have it but they are allowing stages with walk off blast zones... they obviously have never been chaingrabbed by 3D lol

 

[Kashakunaki]

Where is this? If it is that Montage bull **** than **** that.

Those people in that Montage crew are full of blithering butt ****ing morons. Oh my GOD. They're so ****ing ignorant and full of themselves. I don't think they could shove their heads any farther up their elitist ***** if they tried.

If it isn't... well... that's stupid. Besides, the Smash Back Room will probably have the final say, or we'll go with a large tournament organizer's set up rules (i.e. MLG).

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Yea. I agree with Davis. Unless our own rule set becomes the standard for tournaments, we'll obviously have to switch our rule set over to the standard one. Oh well. *Sigh*

You sound pretty angry with the Montage people. Wow.

 

[tw1n]

Ya no kidding lol. But our rules will be our standard until the "official" tournament rules start opening up

 

[Kashakunaki]

Yeah, I never really said anything along those lines, Erich. And if I did, that's not what I meant.

Until MLG or the Smash Back Room says an official word, these will be our rules.

 

[Twin_A]

So I'm guessing most of the rules will be determined while at tourneys huh? For us I mean. We can only do so much now, but while playing we can realize "oh wow this is a good idea" or "thats so ****ing broken"