Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gorgonzales]

I still think it’s a shame the Koopalings have become such a contentious addition. They’re not remotely on the same level as Pink Gold Peach, they’re all distinct characters with fun designs. Like, Lemmy and Roy are not even remotely similar. Once upon a time we were even excited that they were coming back, and now people are totally burnt out on them.

I wonder what happened? Do we just associate them with the oversaturated NSMB titles? Does the main series just not do a good enough job establishing their unique personalities? Because it’s never very convincing to me when people act like they’re a scourge on Mario Kart of all things.

We got burnt out on them. For a period between NSMBW and the mid-2010's, the Koopalings were appearing in everything. Three NSMB games, Mario Kart (in a title with an already extraordinarily lacking roster), Mario & Luigi, Paper Mario, Smash Bros, the Mario & Sonic games... It got really tiring and people got sick of seeing their faces.

Doubly so considering that at least the first NSMB at least tried to have a handful of original bosses, and since then it was replaced by... the Koopalings. (and Reznor which was nice... if he didn't take 3 seconds to beat.)

We weren't really seeing anything that pushed the mold for Mario characters in the Wii U era apart from like, 3D World. You have to remember that the Koopaling-heavy period also coincided with a creative lull in the Mario brand (Paper Mario & Mario & Luigi becoming more homogenized and falling back on them to pad out the boss roster, not to mention NSMB in general), and I feel that made people judge them even more.

Personally I've had more than enough of my fill of Koopalings and would much rather see other characters, old or new, appear as bosses or characters in Mario Kart. I never found their characters especially compelling to begin with, and if you put 1 in something, the other 6 are bound to follow suit and leave barely any room for anyone else.

 

[Louie G.]

Doubly so considering that at least the first NSMB at least tried to have a handful of original bosses, and since then it was replaced by... the Koopalings. (and Reznor which was nice... if he didn't take 3 seconds to beat.)

I do love a lot of the liberties NSMB DS was taking. I've felt for a while that this game doesn't quite get its dues, it had plenty of fun bosses and new enemies on top of bringing over the mechanics from the 3D games comfortably into a 2D plane. I like it a lot as a standalone game, before the "New" brand developed such a negative connotation and the legacy of this game gets a little tarnished in the process.

I'd agree that it was kind of lame to keep reusing the Koopalings as a cushion after NSMBW. It was cool to have them back in that game, but the lack of original bosses across its sequels definitely contributed to their less than stellar reputation. So from that angle yeah, I understand how it happened.

 

[Ivander]

The only possibility I believed in regarding the ARMs fighter theory was that if it did happen, it would only be Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara and/or Min-Min, because there was absolutely no way the other characters, Twintelle, Master Mummy, Mechanica, Helix and etc would work.

And no, the Twintelle mod only solidifies why she wouldn't work as an Alternate costume character.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

We got burnt out on them. For a period between NSMBW and the mid-2010's, the Koopalings were appearing in everything. Three NSMB games, Mario Kart (in a title with an already extraordinarily lacking roster), Mario & Luigi, Paper Mario, Smash Bros, the Mario & Sonic games... It got really tiring and people got sick of seeing their faces.

Doubly so considering that at least the first NSMB at least tried to have a handful of original bosses, and since then it was replaced by... the Koopalings. (and Reznor which was nice... if he didn't take 3 seconds to beat.)

View attachment 386027

We weren't really seeing anything that pushed the mold for Mario characters in the Wii U era apart from like, 3D World. You have to remember that the Koopaling-heavy period also coincided with a creative lull in the Mario brand (Paper Mario & Mario & Luigi becoming more homogenized and falling back on them to pad out the boss roster, not to mention NSMB in general), and I feel that made people judge them even more.

It's funny looking back because in many ways Smash 4 and Mario Kart 8 largely escaped much of the perceived generic direction of Mario related titles from the era, but the general discontent about it was so common that it spilled over onto those games, and Koopalings were just an easy symbolic target for it.

 

[Gorgonzales]

This was the most hellish period of speculation for me because it felt like everyone was just throwing logic out the window. If anything I was mostly taken aback at how little some people cared about the integrity of individual characters. In a fighting game, it's their distinct personalities and abilities that make those characters valuable. Promoting them through Smash as being effectively interchangeable and keeping them glued down under some shell void of a distinctive personality sends the worst possible message. That's ignoring just how impractical the idea was to begin with.

It still kind of haunts me to this day because I see people say Doc Louis can be a Little Mac echo or something. I really wish we could wrap our heads around how body types and personality dictate character. Sakurai explicitly cited this as a reason Isabelle couldn't be an echo fighter, let alone a costume.

Amen. Every time someone says "guys!!! what if.... ALL of Olimar's costume slots were the other Pikmin captains!!" I feel like bashing my head against a goddamn wall.

Most of them are not suitable for alts due to their different proportions, but even ignoring that, having the others as alts won't allow for Olimar to be himself and embrace elements unique to him. Those characters are not Olimar, and adding them would further dilute whatever superficial character Olimar has in Smash (and those characters as well). I want Olimar to have better animations and a better moveset that fits him before we begin to even consider echos or alternate character skins for him... Which I honestly don't think are necessary to begin with. Give me a solid, 100% realized Olimar. He doesn't need an echo, or other characters to fill out his costumes. Olimar is enough, and beyond him I'd want Pikmin to be represented with unique non-clone characters like Louie, Oatchi, or Bulborb.

 

[HyperSomari64]

The ARMS theory is like if the entire vanilla Street Fighter 2 roster was a single character, that would be ridiculous and madcap.

 

[Dinoman96]

Imagine it: Waluigi gets in, but like Daisy he's only a mere echo of Luigi (or even worse, just an alt costume) and thus looks like THIS

Spoiler

 

[fogbadge]

Still when we were discussing other ARMS ideas at the time it wasn’t so bad. One thing I enjoyed during that period was all the ideas for new characters is a potential sequel

 

[Louie G.]

Still when we were discussing other ARMS ideas at the time it wasn’t so bad. One thing I enjoyed during that period was all the ideas for new characters is a potential sequel

You reminded me that “ARMS 2 protagonist” was another funny one that gained a lot of traction. Talk of an ARMS continuation was cool but something was in the water here.

I did like when people actually took the topic seriously and respected the characters individually. Min Min is who I wanted and who we got, but it excited me to conceptualize Helix, Max Brass or Dr. Coyle as well.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Give Vivian the thicc (3d) body she deserves!

My brother in Christ, you're talking about a Paper Mario character.

 

[fogbadge]

You reminded me that “ARMS 2 protagonist” was another funny one that gained a lot of traction. Talk of an ARMS continuation was cool but something was in the water here.

I did like when people actually took the topic seriously and respected the characters individually. Min Min is who I wanted and who we got, but it excited me to conceptualize Helix, Max Brass or Dr. Coyle as well.

that was fun, thinking how the unique attributes would work in smash

 

[DarthEnderX]

Personally I've had more than enough of my fill of Koopalings and would much rather see other characters, old or new, appear as bosses or characters in Mario Kart.

Here's a craaaazy concept:

Have more than one boss per World.

My brother in Christ, you're talking about a Paper Mario character.

Well I think he's quite progressive.

 

[superprincess]

Imagine it: Waluigi gets in, but like Daisy he's only a mere echo of Luigi (or even worse, just an alt costume) and thus looks like THIS

Spoiler

This wouldn't be comparable to Daisy in the slightest. I know this is a joke, but still.

The belief that Daisy was somehow done dirty by being an echo has to be one of the biggest Mario/Nintendo fan misconceptions ever. Seriously, people put her in the same camp as Falcondorf and the botched Koopalings... which just isn't the case.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

My brother in Christ, you're talking about a Paper Mario character.

Are you saying Paper Mario characters can't be THICC?

 

[Gorgonzales]

The belief that Daisy was somehow done dirty by being an echo has to be one of the biggest Mario/Nintendo fan misconceptions ever. Seriously, people put her in the same camp as Falcondorf and the botched Koopalings... which just isn't the case.

...I think she was done dirty. A lot of Peach's base kit just doesn't work for Daisy's character and I much would have rather seen her in Smash as a unique character, or semi-clone at the very least. With how identical her kit currently is to Peach (going as far as to patch out what little differences they did have in turnips), she really feels like a mod.

"Guys!! Daisy's in Smash!!"

No, she isn't? This is just a body-swap episode where Peach's brain is in Daisy's head. And Peach's brain is somehow also in Peach's head.

 

[DarthEnderX]

...I think she was done dirty.

The fact that she's playable at all means she wasn't.

 

[Ivander]

Are you saying Paper Mario characters can't be THICC?

Here's the only thicc that matters.

 

[superprincess]

...I think she was done dirty. A lot of Peach's base kit just doesn't work for Daisy's character and I much would have rather seen her in Smash as a unique character, or semi-clone at the very least. With how identical her kit currently is to Peach (going as far as to patch out what little differences they did have in turnips), she really feels like a mod.

There's really only two moves that feel weird and out of character: Toad and Vegetable. And even those can be somewhat explained, albeit with some stretch of the imagination, like Paula/Kumatora teaching Ness/Lucas PK Starstorm.

Maybe she could be a semiclone, but a unique Daisy would be unnecessary and mildly confusing. I say this as a huge fan of hers who preferred her to Peach for 9 or so years.

 

[Speed Weed]

With regards to reaction to Koopalings in MK8, I think it's important to note in this context that base vanilla MK8's roster was.....pretty bad. A lot of obvious or at least interesting choices from past games were completely missing (including the likes of Diddy Kong and Bowser Jr.), there's practically no original newcomers besides the koopalings themselves, meanwhile we get every baby character and every metal character and, well, you get the point. In this context, I think it's easy to see why 7 separate slots being taken caused such a stir - it's not an indictment of them as characters, it just felt symptomatic of a lot of the roster's issues in terms of omitting fan-favorites in favor of very repetitive or even outright filler choices

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The only thing "done dirty" about Daisy is that she has basically no reason to even exist as an Echo and should have just been an alt if they weren't going to bother giving her any meaningful changes to Peach.

Ooh, her idle stance and dash gives her a slightly different hurtbox? Big ****ing whoop; what Peach player is going to be standing still or running (instead of floating) long enough to where that affects any match up?

 

[NintenRob]

There's really only two moves that feel weird and out of character: Toad and Vegetable. And even those can be somewhat explained, albeit with some stretch of the imagination, like Paula/Kumatora teaching Ness/Lucas PK Starstorm.

Maybe she could be a semiclone, but a unique Daisy would be unnecessary and mildly confusing. I say this as a huge fan of hers who preferred her to Peach for 9 or so ye

Even the vegetable was something any character could do in Super Mario Bros 2, it isn't exactly unique to Peach. Toads more of a stretch but given how disconnected Daisy has become from Sarasaland anyway, it doesn't look out of place to me.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I could tolerate Pink Gold Peach since it was a unique enough Metal. But the extra Babies since Daisy were just asinine. We barely got one more Metal even after that(Gold Mario), so they aren't overwhelming us with them.

But yeah, base 8's roster was pretty bad. I'm glad we got tons more, but some could easily work as costumes. While not so much the Babies, Gold Mario is good as a Metal Mario alt. The various other Marios and Peaches work too(I.E. Cat Peach). It only is a problem if they would have different attributes anyway.

As for ARMS, it wasn't a matter of bodyshapes(of which Spring Man and Ribbon Girl, among others, shared one), it was, yeah, personality. You could barely justify Ribbon Girl as one since her core difference was a double jump, which, like, everyone has in Smash anyway(or just about, technically). The problem was you could only even get 3 feasible unique costumes(Spring Man, Springtron, and Ribbon Girl) without getting awkward(and maybe just two otherwise). Min Min had something special that helped her stand out(but also, was requested by Nintendo and the Creator, which helped determine it too) as is. Being a fan favorite and one of the Creator's favorites also helped.

Overall, twas a good decision in that case. Though I would've liked some of Min Min's costumes to have minor references to other characters at least, instead of being pretty much color swaps. I do like her Dragon ARMS too. Those are pretty cool. She doesn't mesh with me well in Smash, but that's fine. I'm glad we got an ARMS character to begin with, and it's neat having alternate playstyles. Is it done well? Eh, it's cumbersome. But that's not a big deal. Not everyone has easy to work with styles, and that's okay~

 

[cashregister9]

I did like the Arms 2 protagonist theory at the time because I was still huffing copium over the Arms graphic novel still existing and maybe if it came out we could have gotten arms 2.

It had so much potential, why cancel it Nintendo???

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Watch Peach transform and take on showstopping abilities to save the Sparkle Theater! The #PrincessPeachShowtime game demo is available on the Nintendo eShop and at select retailers! pic.twitter.com/cgh4kcYZHL

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) March 7, 2024

They've got me intrigued enough to try the demo at least.

Also, while I know there's debate about how often Smash should incorporate newer versions of characters, taking stages from them I hope does happen more often. Peach's game specially has an interesting stage aesthetic that already looks pretty interesting, let alone what gameplay gimmicks it might have.

 

[Guynamednelson]

she really feels like a mod.

Ironically a mod does try to make her play differently

Timestampped because the obvious changes don't start until her up air. Also the video doesn't show off that her side-B has a chance to misfire.

 

[superprincess]

The only thing "done dirty" about Daisy is that she has basically no reason to even exist as an Echo and should have just been an alt if they weren't going to bother giving her any meaningful changes to Peach.

Ooh, her idle stance and dash gives her a slightly different hurtbox? Big ****ing whoop; what Peach player is going to be standing still or running (instead of floating) long enough to where that affects any match up?

I don't like that Daisy has zero differences from Peach but I also wouldn't go as far as making her an alt. "She has no reason to exist as an echo" yet she's the poster girl of what echoes are. Sakurai explained clearly how echoes are made, and they're actually not the same as Lucina/Dark Pit, who were upgraded costumes; Ultimate's echoes were always meant to be different characters.

Like her or not, I think we can all agree that she is the most marketable echo fighter and that the initial reveal wouldn't have had the same impact if it was anybody else. Maybe Shadow could, but I'm not sure if he would get the point across as clearly as Daisy did. The fact that Peach had a Daisy-themed alt for so many years made it clear that these weren't gonna be very ambitious clones.

I also think letting Peach and Daisy have different records/classic modes/taunts/victory poses is important considering the nature of the two characters. They're similar yet contrasting, not exactly alt material. Also, let 'em keep their 8 colors each. No reason to give them 4+4.

Maybe they could give her a few Dark Pit-level differences, but that's it. Echoes clearly don't need gameplay differences to exist.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'm not saying people shouldn't ask for them, I just think that the argument that being "RPG reps" makes them more likely or compelling is flawed. Especially when most of the same people would snub Daisy and Waluigi for being spinoff exclusives. The truth is Mario RPGs are a pretty niche (if not the most niche) subseries of the Mario universe, especially nowadays. Geno being from an RPG doesn't do him any favors. Being Geno does.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that being from the RPGs makes them more likely. If anything, it's usually the opposite. People usually lament that they never get much acknowledgment. Within the RPGs themselves, I've only seen people say that Geno is more likely now that he's back in the spotlight with the remake, but it's a "this is his best and last chance" sort of deal rather than a "he's super likely now."

Yeah, I didn't really word it right. With Smash barely having villains until recently and also barely having women until recently, a female villain would be extra rare.

I just find it weird and funny that Wendy was the first one to make it (under special circumstances, but still). When you think of the type of character that usually gets into Smash, she's not exactly the first that comes to mind. Her being the first of anything in Smash is just random. As for other female villains, I think Medusa is the most likely if that KI:U remaster happens. That's a big if, but Medusa would be a fun clone of Palutena.

Yeah, in that sense it is a bit odd/funny that Wendy is the first, I just hope she won't be the last. As for Medusa, I think semi-clone at best might work if she's going to be derivative, but I do feel she'd have to be fairly unique. That said, I also feel like Sakurai would skip her in favor of Hades if I'm being honest. I'd much prefer Medusa or at least Viridi if he goes with one of his own creations, but Hades is quite popular as well (unfortunately overshadowing Medusa's return for a lot of people) and does serve as the true big bad.

There's really only two moves that feel weird and out of character: Toad and Vegetable. And even those can be somewhat explained, albeit with some stretch of the imagination, like Paula/Kumatora teaching Ness/Lucas PK Starstorm.

Maybe she could be a semiclone, but a unique Daisy would be unnecessary and mildly confusing. I say this as a huge fan of hers who preferred her to Peach for 9 or so ye

I would have liked for her to be a semi-clone to really make her the Luigi to Peach's Mario but I'm at least happy she's here in the first place. Hopefully she'll get the Roy/Falco treatment at some point. I will ask though, why would her being unique be confusing exactly? I do think she makes more sense as having some parallels/similarities to Peach, but it's not like most of the cast doesn't already have a bunch of made-up moves.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Ironically a mod does try to make her play differently

Timestampped because the obvious changes don't start until her up air. Also the video doesn't show off that her side-B has a chance to misfire.

This isn't perfect, but it's a big improvement. I like her new attacks, except for Down Smash which I feel goes too far in the other direction. Regardless, if Daisy was more like this, I wouldn't mind as much.

Maybe she could be a semiclone, but a unique Daisy would be unnecessary and mildly confusing. I say this as a huge fan of hers who preferred her to Peach for 9 or so years.

You're free to think that, but I really don't believe changing a handful of her moves would make her mildly confusing. I want her to be more physical, she's not the type to sit back and let a Toad do the work for her. I'd change Float to a triple jump like what she has in Super Mario Run. Neutral B and Down B could also be different, but I don't want to be here all day so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Arcadenik]

I would like Daisy to have some changes to have more references to Super Mario Land games.

Change Vegetable from Super Mario Bros. 2 to Carrot from Super Mario Land 2.

Give Daisy rabbit ears whenever she floats. It is a reference to Bunny Mario from Super Mario Land 2.

Replace Toad with Superballs from Super Mario Land. Let Daisy throw Superballs. Daisy is athletic.

Replace Parasol with Propeller Flower from Super Mario Bros. Wonder. Flower motifs suit Daisy.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I would like Daisy to have some changes to have more references to Super Mario Land games.

Change Vegetable from Super Mario Bros. 2 to Carrot from Super Mario Land 2.

Give Daisy rabbit ears whenever she floats. It is a reference to Bunny Mario from Super Mario Land 2.

Replace Toad with Superballs from Super Mario Land. Let Daisy throw Superballs. Daisy is athletic.

Replace Parasol with Propeller Flower from Super Mario Bros. Wonder. Flower motifs suit Daisy.

I do like that Superball idea. Maybe letting her use some stuff from Wonder like blowing bubbles would be good too. It'd be fun if it served as an extra mobility option if she Side-B's into it.

I do envision her as more of an up-close-and-personal fighter, and if it were up to me I'd design her to be a Zone Breaker who wants to get in your face. I'd love it if she was more brawl-ish and energetic for her moves; I'm talking throwing more punches and kicks to better contrast with Peach's regality.

I really think she should play different, at least in the sense of how Mario and Luigi are different in gameplan despite having a few things in common.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I don't like that Daisy has zero differences from Peach but I also wouldn't go as far as making her an alt. "She has no reason to exist as an echo" yet she's the poster girl of what echoes are. Sakurai explained clearly how echoes are made, and they're actually not the same as Lucina/Dark Pit, who were upgraded costumes; Ultimate's echoes were always meant to be different characters.

Like her or not, I think we can all agree that she is the most marketable echo fighter and that the initial reveal wouldn't have had the same impact if it was anybody else. Maybe Shadow could, but I'm not sure if he would get the point across as clearly as Daisy did. The fact that Peach had a Daisy-themed alt for so many years made it clear that these weren't gonna be very ambitious clones.

I also think letting Peach and Daisy have different records/classic modes/taunts/victory poses is important considering the nature of the two characters. They're similar yet contrasting, not exactly alt material. Also, let 'em keep their 8 colors each. No reason to give them 4+4.

Maybe they could give her a few Dark Pit-level differences, but that's it. Echoes clearly don't need gameplay differences to exist.

If she's the poster girl for Echoes, they ****ed up royally.

Especially when this was a flat out lie:

Like, if you make Dark Pit more unique in comparison when he's only got three moves with different properties, what worth are you?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There's a difference between "zero differences" and "zero tangible differences". Daisy is the latter. Yes, she has does have them. They're just unnoticeable to begin with because they almost will never come up. Which is blatantly a major problem. If she didn't have those, she would've worked fine as an alt.

If she had zero, she would be an alt. This does seriously matter when determining her own slot. Every single character who was taken from a costume and turned into a playable character was given some kind of difference(no matter how godawful). This is an actual reasoning Sakurai uses. The slight hurtbox differences, as poor as they are, is enough to get her a different slot. And actually the philosophy. Since any kind of difference changes how results can possibly go(not that I pretend for one moment Daisy's bare difference wouldn't ever affected a result), this became the rule to split them due to that. There is no such thing as costumes with unique differences in Smash. It's developed differently.

I'd rather update her with some more differences, even if they're somewhat minor(I.E. Dark Samus, Dark Pit, and Richter) as a bare minimum.

 

[Gorgonzales]

If she's the poster girl for Echoes, they ****ed up royally.

Especially when this was a flat out lie:
View attachment 386030

Like, if you make Dark Pit more unique in comparison when he's only got three moves with different properties, what worth are you?

Omg, that's actually really funny looking back. They straight up lied to our faces

Besides, I think claiming that echoes have any "poster boy" is being disingenuous because I feel like the dev team doesn't even know what the heck qualifies as an echo. At this point the answer to "what's an echo?" is quite literally "whatever Sakurai feels like". Seriously. It's the reason Ken is classified as one.

And if Daisy hypothetically is supposed to be the poster girl for an echo and a sign for what future echoes entail...

 

[cashregister9]

Besides, I think claiming that echoes have any "poster boy" is being disingenuous because I feel like the dev team doesn't even know what the heck qualifies as an echo. At this point the answer to "what's an echo?" is quite literally "whatever Sakurai feels like". Seriously. It's the reason Ken is classified as one.

I genuinely think they only created the "Echo" label to shut people up

not knowing it would spawn a new discourse.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It's the reason Ken is classified as one.

There's a lot more similarities between Ken and Ryu than Marth/Roy, Fox/Falco/Wolf, Link/Young/Toon Link, etc. That's why he's called one.

 

[7NATOR]

Honestly, I thought that they would do a Custom move situation with ARMS Characters and have all 15 on the roster in the game for some time

I think even for me, I look back at that and ask myself How I let myself think that

-----------

As For Daisy, If she gets changed, it's understandable, but I would actually say that Daisy is an example of how I can see why people like Echoes so much. I Don't really find myself playing Peach at all, but I Like playing Daisy because she has that Spunk and flavor. They have the Same movesetnd properties, but Daisy is a better character for me personally, which Is why I enjoy her and not Peach. I would play her more but She is a hard character to play

But if you do want to Change her, Make her use her Noggin in more moves. I did like when Peach did use her Noggin for her Up air, and I think that move would Fit Daisy more to be honest, so there you go.

Actually on Echo Fighters, I wonder how many of you use the Echoes more than the OG's, for me it Goes

Lucina -> Marth
Roy = Chrom
Dark Pit ->>>>>>>Pit
Dark Samus ->>>>> Samus
Daisy ->>>>>>>>>Peach
Simon ->>>Richter
Ryu = Ken

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Simply put, if they wanted to make Daisy function exactly 1:1 with Peach, they shouldn't have made her an Echo at all. If they wanted to make her an Echo, they should have given her at least one attack that actually has different properties like Richter's Holy Water (intentionally; I'm well aware someone will bring up the Turnip error).

 

[Kirbeh]

Ironically a mod does try to make her play differently

Timestampped because the obvious changes don't start until her up air. Also the video doesn't show off that her side-B has a chance to misfire.

I like some of these changes, especially the Up and Down Airs, Down Smash not so much.

I still haven't gone back to actually play more of Super Mario Wonder (only played the first world,) but I am aware of the badges and power-ups it introduces. Personally, I'd like to see them pull from Wonder to give Daisy a few differences, maybe even for the other characters as well.

So, instead of Peach's float for example, what if she makes use of the Parachute Cap? Maybe she gets the Wall-Climb Jump for a wall jump or the Boosting Spin Jump for a new Up Special (already has the flower motif as a bonus)? Replace both of the princesses' Toads (and make him playable!) with the Bubble Flower to serve as counterparts to the Bros. Fireballs. Give Daisy a tether grab by using the Grappling Vine?

As for changes to normal attacks, I do like the aforementioned Uair and Dair from the mod, but I also feel like a dropkick would be fitting for Daisy on her forward air. Maybe something like Cerebella's dropkick from Skullgirls?

Spoiler

 

[7NATOR]

Omg, that's actually really funny looking back. They straight up lied to our faces

Besides, I think claiming that echoes have any "poster boy" is being disingenuous because I feel like the dev team doesn't even know what the heck qualifies as an echo. At this point the answer to "what's an echo?" is quite literally "whatever Sakurai feels like". Seriously. It's the reason Ken is classified as one.

And if Daisy hypothetically is supposed to be the poster girl for an echo and a sign for what future echoes entail...

I genuinely think they only created the "Echo" label to shut people up

not knowing it would spawn a new discourse.

I think the Main thing that Separates Echoes from Non-Echos (even ones that are Clones) is that

-Echo Fighters have Similar body Types to their Original Fighter
-Echo Fighters are mainly Balanced against their Original Fighter only

I think that's why Ken, even with the Differences he has, is Considered an Echo Fighter of Ryu, Because I think they could mostly Balance against Ryu to have Ken's Balance in Check.

Even Clones like Dr. Mario probably have to be tested against the Cast because his Speed, Damage, Hitbox Angles, and Different Specials compared to Mario are too different for them to be balanced Similar

As for the Echo Label, that's probably the reason, especially since they Essentially made up Half of the Base Roster, so if they didn't make that Distinction to the Fans clear, people would have been upset at such a Small Newcomer roster where half the Newcomer roster are clones

 

[superprincess]

I would have liked for her to be a semi-clone to really make her the Luigi to Peach's Mario but I'm at least happy she's here in the first place. Hopefully she'll get the Roy/Falco treatment at some point. I will ask though, why would her being unique be confusing exactly? I do think she makes more sense as having some parallels/similarities to Peach, but it's not like most of the cast doesn't already have a bunch of made-up moves.

Daisy being a wholly unique fighter when her silhouette and proportions are so similar to Peach would naturally cause some confusion. I'm not saying they have to be 1:1 but Gorgonzales specifically said they'd prefer her to be unique, to which I replied that it'd be confusing.

Semi clone Daisy would be ideal, but I also don't think it'd be worth spending so much time and resources on differentiating a character who doesn't really have an established fighting style or any "must have" moves from their series.

You're free to think that, but I really don't believe changing a handful of her moves would make her mildly confusing. I want her to be more physical, she's not the type to sit back and let a Toad do the work for her. I'd change Float to a triple jump like what she has in Super Mario Run. Neutral B and Down B could also be different, but I don't want to be here all day so I'll leave it at that.

I never said changing two moves would be confusing, I said that a unique Daisy would be confusing. Oh, and she doesn't have a triple jump in SMR. It's a double jump. Giving her multiple midair jumps would kinda go against Smash's whole philosophy (the only characters who get multiple midair jumps are the Kirby ones + the winged ones). Removing float would also need extensive rebalancing given how much she relies on it currently, and at that point, is it even worth including her as a quick effortless pick?

If she's the poster girl for Echoes, they ****ed up royally.

Especially when this was a flat out lie:
View attachment 386030

Like, if you make Dark Pit more unique in comparison when he's only got three moves with different properties, what worth are you?

The problem is that y'all look at echo fighters as "clones lite" when they're really just "alt costumes premium". Sakurai explained that the team decides on a character and then tweaks them until they feel right. In the case of Daisy, solely changing her personality through her facial expressions and non-attack animations made her feel like Daisy, so they stopped there. And it's fine.

Besides, I think claiming that echoes have any "poster boy" is being disingenuous because I feel like the dev team doesn't even know what the heck qualifies as an echo. At this point the answer to "what's an echo?" is quite literally "whatever Sakurai feels like". Seriously. It's the reason Ken is classified as one.

Ken is the exception, obviously. The only reason he's classified as an echo is because they had to market him as a partner to Ryu, which is the character's whole brand.

Also, there's quite a few ways to tell apart an echo from a non echo clone. Echoes are always the same exact size as their partners and they're only balanced relative to them, not against the whole roster. All parameters and stats are also the exact same with the exception of Ken's speed.

Also, yes, Daisy is the closest echo fighters have to a poster girl. She's the one they announced first (at E3 no less) and the example they used when showcasing the stacking feature. It's even in the options.

Simply put, if they wanted to make Daisy function exactly 1:1 with Peach, they shouldn't have made her an Echo at all. If they wanted to make her an Echo, they should have given her at least one attack that actually has different properties like Richter's Holy Water (intentionally; I'm well aware someone will bring up the Turnip error).

Dark Samus functions exactly the same as Samus too, with some hurtbox shifting due to some animations like her dodge rolls and jumps.

Again, Sakurai detailed how echoes are chosen and designed. Daisy felt like Daisy after they got her attitude right. She didn't need attack changes, so they didn't add them. Simple.

Anyways... I'd be willing to entertain the idea of a Luigified Daisy (in a world with infinite dev resources) but if Smash can't even get THE Zelda villain right... maybe Mario's #2 princess isn't the priority.