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12 (14 if you count Sheik and ZSS separately) out of 55 was still not a great ratio imo. Not to mention 4 of those weren't even on the CSS. It could be argued that Ultimate's 22/24 (with 8 not being on the CSS) is still not great out of 89, but eh. There were more standalone (non-gender swap) women added, so maybe that's why the female roster feels more full.
I mean, you can. Said changes were absolutely arbitrary to the point you can just give her the same idle and running animations as Peach and nothing of value would be lost since again, those slight hurtbox differences don't mean a thing in an actual fight where the standard player isn't going to be sitting idle or running much instead of floating.
Daisy is a lot more iconic than other echoes like Dark Pit or alts like Alph. She’s been around since the Game Boy and has appeared in almost every spinoff game. I think she’s more than earned her spot on the roster. I can understand the argument that they should have done more to differentiate her from Peach but calling her a pointless addition is crazy to me.
Does she have any legitimately meaningful differences from the character she's Echoing?
You know, one of these days I need to make an in depth breakdown of the gender ratios of Smash.
I feel like most semiclones wouldn't work at all as alts outfits (like Toon Link as a alts of Link would make no sense at all). As for total clones like Richter, Daisy and Dark Samus, what's the point of putting them as alts costumes? You're not even saving development time, there's pretty much no difference in having Daisy as an alts aside from the fact that the devs don't have to make 8 alts for both Peach and Daisy.
Yes, her general attitude and personality is completely different from Peach. She’s a spunky tomboy while Peach is more elegant and refined. I think that justifies the extra taunts and animations of an echo compared to an alt. I don’t know anything about Pikmin so the same might be true for Alph but he’s much less recognizable with a general audience. Thats why I think she got her own slot and Alph didn’t.
I think Toon Link is the only one that outright wouldn’t work at all. For most of the others, in an alternate universe where they never made it in Smash as their own characters, I think they could have worked as alts. The only real issue is that people are now used to their individual playstyles so demoting them would be jarring. Again, I’m not advocating that they do that, just that I’d prefer it to the alternative of losing them altogether.
Dark Samus actually does have more meaningful differences compared to those two to warrant Echo over costume.
Ooh... I can't imagine feeling so strongly about such an inoffensive character.
Again, echoes don't need gameplay differences, we already know that. If she were pointless as a separate fighter they wouldn't have added her. They probably knew Peach mains (especially long-running ones since Melee) wouldn't want her to share her costume slots with another person, and that Daisy fans who have been clamoring for her inclusion all these years would at least want her personality to be done justice. This is the Smash team being mindful of people's requests, and we're still not happy...?
This!!! Why would the team spend an admittedly small, but still significant enough amount of time making a whole new Smashified design for Daisy, unique particle effects, unique non-attack animations and facial expressions, only to tuck her away as an alt, and not be able to market all that stuff as cool new additions? The amount of effort to make Daisy happen was small, but not zero. If they were gonna make her, they'd push her as a new character no matter what.
Now this is an interesting conversation about echo fighters. I've been thinking about this a lot, especially because of the inevitable cuts that are gonna be made next game. Are decloned echoes a worthwhile investment, or are they going to be kept the same to save on time and resources? What if they're cut altogether?
Well for starters, there are plenty of custom moves in Sm4sh that would at least have benefitted Daisy and Lucina. Flower Bomber especially seems like a no-brainer for a Princess literally named after a flower. Some of Marth’s customs also fit into Lucina’s beginner-friendly play style.
Just furthering my point that they really ****ed up with Daisy.
If I had a nickel for every playable Princess in Smash who was the Echo Fighter of a character with plenty of customs moves available to repurpose for Ultimate and yet they didn’t, I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot but this shouldn’t have happened twice.
When i see the main character of Cave story i always think of a german youtuber because that character was used for his Avatar!
Counterpoint: Custom moves sucked and were unbalanced.
I don’t especially like Lucina that much either because I appreciate the nuance to Marth’s moveset, that’s what makes it so good and that’s intrinsically what he was designed around. This is one case where I just kinda resign my own feelings about it and recognize it may be something they find valuable.
Thank christ they were able to combine Reflect and Counter so another move would be opened up, but they really made some lame decisions when it came to Palutena’s base specials. I agree, I really liked Heavenly Light. It’s an odd move but it sells Palutena’s whole shtick nicely and it’s a cool way to build up chip damage when opponents are in your radius. Palutena’s Up Smash already gives this impression of how she’s able to cover a surprising amount of distance, so it plays further into that.
K. Rool’s counter was a strange choice to me too. The rest of his moveset was pretty much identical to what I imagined (besides my version of the blunderbuss being a bit more complex) but I’m not sure where the counter came from. I think either a jumping stomp like Dedede or Bowser or an aerial cannonball that fell straight down vertically like his first boss fight in DKC1 would have made more sense.
I'm guessing that's because they wanted a Special Move Focused on the Belly Armor K.Rool has. I think he's also the only Super Heavyweight with a Counter which is pretty unique for the Archetype
I do agree that Gut Check is a weird move, but honestly the rest of King K. Rool's moveset is so perfectly designed that I don't mind it that much. A ground-pound that emits a shockwave like his DK64 fight would've been neat, but I'm not losing sleep over what they decided to go with since they pretty much got all of the other major moves (Crown toss, blunderbuss, propellerpack) covered, and then some.
Same. I’m quite satisfied with how he came out as a whole so I’m not stressing over a few things I would have done differently. For simplicity’s sake, it was probably smarter to go with the blunderbuss attack they did instead of what I had in my head too (though I would have personally lived it).
Based on what? Echoes have only been around for 1 game.
Well, the concept of a giant AoE that does damage but has no knockback is re-explored with Piranha Plant somewhat.
This is my new favorite term for stage hazards.
I borrowed the idea for my Magus moveset concept with his Dark Mist attack. My idea for the move is he creates a fog along the ground that acts in a very similar way to Heavenly Light. Funnily enough, my Magus idea pretty much uses Sora’s exact mechanic of cycling between elements for his neutral special but I created it before Sora was revealed. I thought it was cool how we almost got the same move for a different character.
That's the point. They gave her a minimal difference that doesn't make her 1:1 with Peach. That's why she's an Echo. I absolutely agree it was poorly done.
She has one in the Super Mario line. That wouldn't have made a difference. Popularity absolutely played a role. They just didn't do enough.
Heaveblt light was okay but I really would've liked her keeping lightweight.
