Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

The Battletoads could work either as alts or echoes. The three have shared moves in the original game and Battletoads and Double Dragon. Rash’s Killer Instinct moveset pulls from a lot of their shared attacks. The have also had unique attacks in Battlemaniacs, the arcade game, and the reboot. Bill and Lance could work as either too since they play the same but there are enough weapons in Contra to vary them if you wanted to. Billy and Jimmy would probably just be alts because I’m not sure what you’d do to vary them.

 

[SPEN18]

I can't think of anyone who would legitimately fit and work well as a K. Rool clone, and that's a good thing we need more of, not less: a character with a moveset that is so unique and personal to them that it couldn't possibly work for anyone else. That's Smash at its best when it comes to selling the crossover aspect and celebrating individual characters and franchises.
When faced with the resource and time crunch, and the stressor of needing to pack in a lot of content to successfully market the game, some heavier-than-usual asset reuse and creative liberty become useful tools. But the point is never to milk those tools for all that they're worth, rather simply leverage them as necessary to cope with hard realities.

 

[Gengar84]

I can't think of anyone who would legitimately fit and work well as a K. Rool clone, and that's a good thing we need more of, not less: a character with a moveset that is so unique and personal to them that it couldn't possibly work for anyone else. That's Smash at its best when it comes to selling the crossover aspect and celebrating individual characters and franchises.
When faced with the resource and time crunch, and the stressor of needing to pack in a lot of content to successfully market the game, some heavier-than-usual asset reuse and creative liberty become useful tools. But the point is never to milk those tools for all that they're worth, rather simply leverage them as necessary to cope with hard realities.

I never beat Tropical Freeze but didn’t people say Frederick’s moveset was very similar to K. Rool’s? I imagine he’d work if that’s true.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I disagree. Even for the undercooked echoes like Daisy, Dark Samus, or Richter, being an echo gives them unique animations that better represent their personalities than just sharing their base character's taunts and idles. That alone justifies them echoes over costumes, IMO. I do understand concerns about roster bloat, but I think that could be fixed by allowing the player to individually set which echoes have their own slots and which ones are stacked on their original. That way, the player could set their own uniform standard for which characters are and are not unique enough to justify their own slot, as opposed to Ultimate's "all or nothing" approach to stacking echoes.

If you need to make a character an echo because the base's animations aren't fitting for the echo, might as well just make a unique character or semi-clone. There's a lot more cases where this is a preferable option.

I understand time constraints are a thing, and that's fine. I would much rather wait a game or two to have unique movesets for characters like Daisy and Dark Samus. There's so much more you could do to separate them from their bases, and it's honestly a disservice to them that they aren't.

I love Daisy as a character but feel absolutely nothing when I see her in Smash, because it doesn't feel like she's actually in the game. That isn't Daisy. Mate, that's skinwalker Peach. There are so many moves on Daisy that are just out of place and do not fit the character, like F-tilt, the Final Smash, all of her specials except side B, and so on.

Not as familiar with Dark Samus, but going off of its assist trophy appearance in Smash 4 and its abilities from its battles like cloning itself, that's another case where I'd prefer the full-fighter route.

Having these characters as echoes feels like a very superficial way to add them to the game. They can legally say, "Look! We have Daisy and Dark Samus!", when they're nothing more than roster padding.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Look. All ill say regarding the echo situation is

• We should be glad we got more, not less. Removing our current echoes doesn't make the roster more pure.
• I'm generally against unique characters being in as just alts, as it usually takes away from their own individuality. Bowser Jr. can't do fun and unique Jr. things because he has to do things the Koopalings can do. He doesn't even get any true alt colors.
• Most of the time people suggesting characters being lumped together as alts either don't know the characters in question or don't care about them. You very rarely see knowledge fans suggest these things.
• The fanbase is notoriously bad at determining good echoes. Most echoes are fan favorite characters from their own franchises. And the characters chosen don't have to make stretches to use the same abilities. To give some perspective, the biggest stretch in Ultimate is Daisy using a Toad. And that's not a huge stretch.
• All this leads to Black Knight being a terrible, terrible, terrible idea for an echo.
• Dark Samus is extremely lucky to be in at all (and I love her). She's an amazing character, but timing was not kind to her. The ballot came in clutch.
• Alph got robbed. Justice for Alph.

 

[Louie G.]

I love Daisy as a character but feel absolutely nothing when I see her in Smash, because it doesn't feel like she's actually in the game. That isn't Daisy. Mate, that's skinwalker Peach. There are so many moves on Daisy that are just out of place and do not fit the character, like F-tilt, the Final Smash, all of her specials except side B, and so on.

I have a hunch that if any of the echoes will be distinguished further next game, Daisy is pretty much at the front of that list. I think Ultimate's echoes could potentially end up like Melee's clones - which means we leave some of them behind, but the ones that stick around (Falco, Ganondorf) get chipped away at and made into more unique identities. I'm like 99% certain she is safe, so we'll see where it goes from that point.

Personally I think Daisy immediately becomes a lot more justified if you remove her float in favor of better strength and speed on the ground. Not only does it suit her character better, but it becomes a unique contrast to Peach without needing to completely overhaul. Granted, I'd like to see them give her some more fitting moves as well, but we can start here. This kind of dynamic is why I feel like Lucina is one of the most effective echoes, for offering a more measured and accessible version of Marth at the expense of his strongest asset. More stuff like that please.

 

[Will]

I love Daisy as a character but feel absolutely nothing when I see her in Smash, because it doesn't feel like she's actually in the game. That isn't Daisy. Mate, that's skinwalker Peach. There are so many moves on Daisy that are just out of place and do not fit the character, like F-tilt, the Final Smash, all of her specials except side B, and so on.

Why did you mention the side special specifically? How does Daisy throwing it back ten feet in the air fit her any more than Peach?

 

[Gengar84]

If you need to make a character an echo because the base's animations aren't fitting for the echo, might as well just make a unique character or semi-clone. There's a lot more cases where this is a preferable option.

I understand time constraints are a thing, and that's fine. I would much rather wait a game or two to have unique movesets for characters like Daisy and Dark Samus. There's so much more you could do to separate them from their bases, and it's honestly a disservice to them that they aren't.

I love Daisy as a character but feel absolutely nothing when I see her in Smash, because it doesn't feel like she's actually in the game. That isn't Daisy. Mate, that's skinwalker Peach. There are so many moves on Daisy that are just out of place and do not fit the character, like F-tilt, the Final Smash, all of her specials except side B, and so on.

Not as familiar with Dark Samus, but going off of its assist trophy appearance in Smash 4 and its abilities from its battles like cloning itself, that's another case where I'd prefer the full-fighter route.

Having these characters as echoes feels like a very superficial way to add them to the game. They can legally say, "Look! We have Daisy and Dark Samus!", when they're nothing more than roster padding.

I think the best thing to do is to add them as echoes first then differentiate them into their own thing later. I agree that it sucks when one of your favorites gets stuck not being faithful to their source just because they started as an echo (like Ganondorf).

I’m getting the feeling that most people’s reception towards echoes, mine included, are based on how much they wanted or cared about the character previously. Like I’ll gladly take a bonus character but it does feel like a let down if one of your most wanted characters get in as an echo, particularly if moveset was part of your reason for wanting them.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Personally I think Daisy immediately becomes a lot more justified if you remove her float in favor of better strength and speed on the ground. Not only does it suit her character better, but it becomes a unique contrast to Peach without needing to completely overhaul. Granted, I'd like to see them give her some more fitting moves as well, but we can start here.

Thank you for mentioning float, I knew I was forgetting something lol. I think it'd be neat if they replaced it with a third jump, similar to how Daisy's signature ability in Mario Run is a double jump.

Why did you mention the side special specifically? How does Daisy throwing it back ten feet in the air fit her any more than Peach?

I'd argue it fits Daisy more than Peach. It's a better move for the tomboy to have than Peach, where it feels a little out of place considering how the rest of her kit emphasizes her regality/femininity.

I think the best thing to do is to add them as echoes first then differentiate them into their own thing later. I agree that it sucks when one of your favorites gets stuck not being faithful to their source just because they started as an echo (like Ganondorf). I’m getting the feeling that most people’s reception towards echoes, mine included, are based on how much they wanted or cared about the character previously. Like I’ll gladly take a bonus character but it does feel like a let down if one of your most wanted characters get in as an echo, particularly if moveset was part of your reason for wanting them.

I agree that the "echo to unique character pipeline" would be the ideal situation, but... just look at how Smash handles these things. It took four games to get Ganondorf to use his sword. I'm not very confident in their willingness to differentiate Daisy in the next game if she gets in.

For crying out loud, there were differences between Peach and Daisy at launch and they removed them. That pretty much tells me all I need to know about the Smash team's stance on the matter.

If you get into Smash with a bad moveset, well... tough luck, buddy. One of my biggest hopes for Smash going forward is that they abandon the whole "we can't change this character too much because it'll alienate the people who like their current kit" mentality. Like, genuinely. That mindset NEEDS to die if we want to move this series forward.

 

[Stratos]

Master Higgins (known as Master Wigins in the United Kingdom and as Takahashi Meijin in Japanese versions) the protagonist from the Adventure Island series could come as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series, but since I've only played the first game in the series Adventure Island, I can't even think of what his Final Smash could be.

 

[Louie G.]

I think the best thing to do is to add them as echoes first then differentiate them into their own thing later. I agree that it sucks when one of your favorites gets stuck not being faithful to their source just because they started as an echo (like Ganondorf).

I'm preaching to the choir I know, but I think Ganondorf remains the one inexcusable outlier that should have never happened at all. Every other clone has gotten sufficiently reworked over time, and still makes sense working off their respective source. Fox and Falco? Marth and Roy? They're super different now, but it's not so baffling that they started out as a clone. Ganondorf is also quite a bit different, but is a relic of a time where the standards were a bit looser and we could get a clone entirely unrelated to another character. I don't think that would even be on the table in any game past Melee.

Which is to say I'm pretty content with every other clone on the roster, I think they were all pretty smart choices. I endorse further decloning of Daisy and Dark Samus, but at its core these still make enough practical sense. Ganondorf gets the benefit of FEELING completely different, one of the fastest characters in the game turned into one of the slowest, but is always gonna be weighed down by that strange association.

It doesn't bug me quite as much as some of his strongest soldiers but it definitely stands out when you map out the trajectory of every other clone in the series and just wonder how it happened in the first place.

 

[Gengar84]

I main Ganondorf now mainly because I like the character more so than that I like his moveset. Ironically, he was a lot more fun to play in Melee where he was a straight Falcon clone. Even though I’ve mained him since the latter half of Melee before Brawl came out (I mained Fox at first), I’m totally fine with a complete overhaul. As long as the end result is still fun to play, I’m happy. He’d be awesome with a float run like Sephiroth and various magic pulled from his different incarnations.

Here’s just a few ideas I’d love to see:

Up special: Trident toss and teleport
Neutral special: Dead Man’s Volley
Forward special: Fire bats
Down special: Cape reflector
Down aerial: Super slam

I can expand on those with more detail later if anyone cares but those are just rough starting points.

I think if we go this route with a revalued Ganondorf focused more on magic, they should bring back his Melee moveset and give it to Black Shadow from F-Zero. He makes a lot more sense as a slower, more powerful Falcon clone.

 

[fogbadge]

• Alph got robbed. Justice for Alph.

yes

 

[Sucumbio]

They can legally say, "Look! We have Daisy and Dark Samus!", when they're nothing more than roster padding.

I'm getting what you're saying but this is kinda unnecessary and reductive. Nintendo doesn't need a reason to do anything as they're keen on proving let alone a cheap marketing trick. Remember how proudly they showed Samus' redesign with the jet assited kicks and whatnot? These devs take painstakingly long hours doing their best and we shouldn't assume Dark Samus design similarities were a result of either laziness or "padding" when you need to pad an already giant roster and the work they put in is obviously anything but lazy.

 

[Gengar84]

I'm getting what you're saying but this is kinda unnecessary and reductive. Nintendo doesn't need a reason to do anything as they're keen on proving let alone a cheap marketing trick. Remember how proudly they showed Samus' redesign with the jet assited kicks and whatnot? These devs take painstakingly long hours doing their best and we shouldn't assume Dark Samus design similarities were a result of either laziness or "padding" when you need to pad an already giant roster and the work they put in is obviously anything but lazy.

I think it just came down to other characters out prioritizing them and Sakurai felt it was better to give their fans something rather than nothing.

 

[Kirbeh]

Why do people keep this repeating this? Seen this is exact line over and over in 2020 and it was quite irritating. Do people not know that Nintendo just publishes Smash Bros, not develops?

They already done rollback for Arms and MK8D. This is Bandai Namco's problem. This is the same issue they had with their other problem with their other fighting games like Soul Calibur and FighterZ which only begun to recifity for the latter. Even for the latter i think more Arc Systems Works doing due their success with Strive's online.



He had one time in a Column. He said had implemented with Ultimate but it never worked probably. Most likely due how Online in Ultimate works and with many variables of modes come instead being more set and uniform like 4. The 2 things Smash 4 did better than Ultimate.

Rollback net coding was looked into during development, but it had a lot of adverse side effects. pic.twitter.com/KS7WHiWr7J

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) September 2, 2020

I assume it work only for 1v1 than anything else. Hope this convinces Sakurai to bring For Fun/Glory again

Namco is providing the manpower to actually make the game, but it's still Nintendo's game. You're severely downplaying their involvement to say they're "just the publisher." If they were so inclined, they would ask for better online to be a priority, but they don't because it hasn't been in most cases.

Also, guess who else worked on ARMS and MK8? Bandai Namco, creating half of the assets for both games. Strictly asset creation of course, but the point being it's up to Nintendo to decide how they're going to handle the online in their own games. (And getting rollback in two games is nice, but a very small victory.)

I don't blame them for not doing it in Ultimate because we know they tried and couldn't get it functioning properly. I'm well aware that Smash is a different beast compared to other fighters. My issues with Nintendo and their online aren't strictly focused on just rollback in Smash though.

I will admit, perhaps my view on the matter is pessimistic, but given Nintendo's history, I've little faith they'll improve much for the next console. I expect them to improve sure, but I'm not expecting them to fully catch up.

 

[CannonStreak]

I'm getting what you're saying but this is kinda unnecessary and reductive. Nintendo doesn't need a reason to do anything as they're keen on proving let alone a cheap marketing trick. Remember how proudly they showed Samus' redesign with the jet assited kicks and whatnot? These devs take painstakingly long hours doing their best and we shouldn't assume Dark Samus design similarities were a result of either laziness or "padding" when you need to pad an already giant roster and the work they put in is obviously anything but lazy.

Wanna know something I think? Those people who think characters like Daisy and Dark Samus are padding or laziness and all that don't seem to know that there is a lot of work to be done for characters being made, even those two and anyone else. They are not as simple as a copy and paste, nor are they that much shorter work to be had than other characters, when there is still a lot of work to be done for them. Sakurai and the rest behind the game do a lot of work, echoes and clones included, so it is not laziness or padding. In fact, I dare say that the ones who call it laziness and padding; when they have not worked on the game and likely do not know how game development works; are the ones who are lazy for not even doing research on how characters are made in games like Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

Namco is providing the manpower to actually make the game, but it's still Nintendo's game. You're severely downplaying their involvement to say they're "just the publisher." If they were so inclined, they would ask for better online to be a priority, but they don't because it hasn't been in most cases.

Also, guess who else worked on ARMS and MK8? Bandai Namco, creating half of the assets for both games. Strictly asset creation of course, but the point being it's up to Nintendo to decide how they're going to handle the online in their own games. (And getting rollback in two games is nice, but a very small victory.)

I don't blame them for not doing it in Ultimate because we know they tried and couldn't get it functioning properly. I'm well aware that Smash is a different beast compared to other fighters. My issues with Nintendo and their online aren't strictly focused on just rollback in Smash though.

I will admit, perhaps my view on the matter is pessimistic, but given Nintendo's history, I've little faith they'll improve much for the next console. I expect them to improve sure, but I'm not expecting them to fully catch up.

As long as they actually have working controllers next time and I don’t have to resort to buying an adapter that lets me use my PS4 controllers to play their console, I’m good. Its so disappointing because Nintendo always used to have pretty reliable hardware compared to its competition.

 

[Sucumbio]

Lol well okay then. But yeah that's not to say I'm not disappointed Dark Samus wasn't more fleshed out.

This idea about Smash's future is interesting. I admit I'd find it odd is I picked up say, Marth and all of a sudden his dancing blade came out as a single swipe or something. I'm used to dancing blade. It's be jarring... But is it okay if it changes? I dunno maybe not I'd hate to think I'd stop using a character because of a design change... I think there's definitely a part for "if it ain't broke don't fix it" too.

 

[Louie G.]

This idea about Smash's future is interesting. I admit I'd find it odd is I picked up say, Marth and all of a sudden his dancing blade came out as a single swipe or something. I'm used to dancing blade. It's be jarring... But is it okay if it changes? I dunno maybe not I'd hate to think I'd stop using a character because of a design change... I think there's definitely a part for "if it ain't broke don't fix it" too.

I think there are some movesets that are too canonized to make drastic adjustments to, particularly characters where Smash has taken some liberties to flesh them out and kind of make them its own. Main ones that come to mind are Fox, Ness, Captain Falcon, Marth. In fact Marth's moveset is one of the most influential in the whole game, having roots in four separate characters. Dancing Blade will certainly stick around.

But then you have characters who are either more fluid, like Mario and Link, or clearly welcome further adjustments like Ganondorf. Obviously they don't feel quite so attached to Ganon's moveset if they threw out all his smash attacks, for example. But they also don't want to completely abandon what's been established, so they ease out of it. But then some characters like Sheik, Zelda and King Dedede saw world changing new moves added in their second or third games - Burst Grenade / Bouncing Fish, Phantom Slash, Gordo Toss respectively. Imagining Dedede without Gordos is impossible for me now.

Some changes, like the one I just mentioned, make a character that much more appealing and complete without betraying those who already enjoyed them and inviting even more players in on the fun. I guess it just comes case by case.

 

[Dan Quixote]

As long as they actually have working controllers next time and I don’t have to resort to buying an adapter that lets me use my PS4 controllers to play their console, I’m good. Its so disappointing because Nintendo always used to have pretty reliable hardware compared to its competition.

Just send it back in buddy. Should Nintendo have released defective controllers in 2017? No, that's terrible, and it was clearly a rush job with no regard for consumers. But a year later when all my Joycons were drifting upward (everyone says theirs drifted side to side but mine all went up, sometimes diagonally up) they started a program to send your broken controllers to them in a box and they'd "repair" it (I'm pretty sure they just replace them with new ones) and send it back to you all fixed. More importantly, for free.

Again, not defending Nintendo here. Releasing bad hardware is bad, and not having my controllers for a whole month as they were shipped away, "repaired," and shipped back is a very obtuse way to do things. BUT not a single controller of mine has drifted in the five years since. They fixed 'em. Everywhere in my life I'm seeing people wasting money on solutions when they can just bite the bullet, mail the Joycons to Nintendo for a month, and have the issue fixed forever, and I always gotta be the one to tell people they're wasting money.

 

[Gengar84]

Just send it back in buddy. Should Nintendo have released defective controllers in 2017? No, that's terrible, and it was clearly a rush job with no regard for consumers. But a year later when all my Joycons were drifting upward (everyone says theirs drifted side to side but mine all went up, sometimes diagonally up) they started a program to send your broken controllers to them in a box and they'd "repair" it (I'm pretty sure they just replace them with new ones) and send it back to you all fixed. More importantly, for free.

Again, not defending Nintendo here. Releasing bad hardware is bad, and not having my controllers for a whole month as they were shipped away, "repaired," and shipped back is a very obtuse way to do things. BUT not a single controller of mine has drifted in the five years since. They fixed 'em. Everywhere in my life I'm seeing people wasting money on solutions when they can just bite the bullet, mail the Joycons to Nintendo for a month, and have the issue fixed forever, and I always gotta be the one to tell people they're wasting money.

It was actually my pro controllers that drifted, not the joycons. Were they offering free repairs on those too? I went through 2 official pro controllers and 2 third party and they all drifted. If they reuse the same controllers for the next console and they still fix them for free, I’ll probably send them in. Now I’ve been using PS4 controllers for years so it would almost feel weird to go back lol.

 

[Oracle Link]

I just watching Digimon adventure 2 again and just as i remember Wormmon is my favourite:

I also like stingmon which is neat! Eventhough It wouldnt be playable before agumon (Or any other digimon besides MAYBE Patamon)
It has higher chances to show up as a spirit and is probably the best choice from adventure 2 so thats counting for something!
My Second favourite digimon is patamon by the way!
Third is Agumon!
Fourth is Piyomon Maybe? SORA!

 

[Gorgonzales]

I'm getting what you're saying but this is kinda unnecessary and reductive. Nintendo doesn't need a reason to do anything as they're keen on proving let alone a cheap marketing trick. Remember how proudly they showed Samus' redesign with the jet assited kicks and whatnot? These devs take painstakingly long hours doing their best and we shouldn't assume Dark Samus design similarities were a result of either laziness or "padding" when you need to pad an already giant roster and the work they put in is obviously anything but lazy.

I never said it was lazy. I have no doubt the devs were doing their best, I just don't think the direction they took by making them echoes was the right call (assuming they don't intend on changing them much if they ever come back in future titles).

I guess it really is down to a matter of time. I do want Daisy to come back in a future game, and I hope by that point they've eased up on the whole "no veteran overhauls" mentality. I want to see her throwing fists and being the cool princess she was always meant to be.

I think there are some movesets that are too canonized to make drastic adjustments to, particularly characters where Smash has taken some liberties to flesh them out and kind of make them its own. Main ones that come to mind are Fox, Ness, Captain Falcon, Marth. In fact Marth's moveset is one of the most influential in the whole game, having roots in four separate characters. Dancing Blade will certainly stick around.

But then you have characters who are either more fluid, like Mario and Link, or clearly welcome further adjustments like Ganondorf. Obviously they don't feel quite so attached to Ganon's moveset if they threw out all his smash attacks, for example. But they also don't want to completely abandon what's been established, so they ease out of it. But then some characters like Sheik, Zelda and King Dedede saw world changing new moves added in their second or third games - Burst Grenade / Bouncing Fish, Phantom Slash, Gordo Toss respectively. Imagining Dedede without Gordos is impossible for me now.

Some changes, like the one I just mentioned, make a character that much more appealing and complete without betraying those who already enjoyed them and inviting even more players in on the fun. I guess it just comes case by case.

I agree with this. Even in the event of a reboot that overhauls most characters, Fox, Falcon, and Marth should remain largely unchanged. They have legacy platform fighter moveset designs and really don't even have anything wrong with them. There isn't much else you could add or change without it becoming gimmicky.

 

[fogbadge]

I just watching Digimon adventure 2 again and just as i remember Wormmon is my favourite:
View attachment 382194
I also like stingmon which is neat! Eventhough It wouldnt be playable before agumon (Or any other digimon besides MAYBE Patamon)
It has higher chances to show up as a spirit and is probably the best choice from adventure 2 so thats counting for something!
My Second favourite digimon is patamon by the way!
Third is Agumon!
Fourth is Piyomon Maybe? SORA!

anime debut. ineligible

 

[Dan Quixote]

It was actually my pro controllers that drifted, not the joycons. Were they offering free repairs on those too? I went through 2 official pro controllers and 2 third party and they all drifted. If they reuse the same controllers for the next console and they still fix them for free, I’ll probably send them in. Now I’ve been using PS4 controllers for years so it would almost feel weird to go back lol.

I'm not sure. Like I said, it was five years ago, and since I've had functional Joycons for so long and the grip to slot them back into a traditional controller layout, I've never owned a pro controller... until two days ago when my parents got me one for Christmas lol.

Still, I sure hope they'll fix it.

 

[Louie G.]

I agree with this. Even in the event of a reboot that overhauls most characters, Fox, Falcon, and Marth should remain largely unchanged. They have legacy platform fighter moveset designs and really don't even have anything wrong with them. There isn't much else you could add or change without it becoming gimmicky.

I think it's telling that Fox and Marth are above average in pretty much every game they've been in.

Definitely some of the most functional and intuitive movesets in the game that also manage to breathe life into characters whose source game was somewhat lacking in material. I don't think Fox's moveset gets enough credit for the way it represents the Arwing's functionality without feeling overt and gimmicky. Perfectly executed character from literal day one, and arguably even a little ahead of its time design-wise.

 

[SPEN18]

I never beat Tropical Freeze but didn’t people say Frederick’s moveset was very similar to K. Rool’s? I imagine he’d work if that’s true.

His boss fight in TF never struck me as very similar to KRool, no, though it's been a while since I played it myself. Some of KRool's moves you could come up with suitable variations, but I don't think it would work overall without really forcing it, no. For one thing just from looking at them, I couldn't see Fredrik making sense with belly armor.

 

[Oracle Link]

anime debut. ineligible

Digimon itself didnt start out as an anime but as a Tamagotchi!
Or do you mean wormmon in particular cause that same thing didnt stop lucario!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The reason Lord Frederick's moves look similar to K. Rool is because some of K. Rool's moves in the original boss fight are very simple.

I mean one of them is literally running across the screen. Of course that one is going to be reused. The more standout ones like the boomerang crown aren't reused.

 

[fogbadge]

Digimon itself didnt start out as an anime but as a Tamagotchi!
Or do you mean wormmon in particular cause that same thing didnt stop lucario!

lucario was made for games wormmon was made for anime

 

[SPEN18]

Marth's moveset was genius. The tipper and counter mechanics were really creative ways of representing Fire Emblem all the way back in Melee.

I gotta admit, though, the whole kit loses something when you take away the tipper. I feel like, assuming it would work, Lucina should have been tuned with like a weak base and tip but strong mid-blade, or something like that, rather than removing that aspect of the spacing mechanic altogether.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Marth's moveset was genius. The tipper and counter mechanics were really creative ways of representing Fire Emblem all the way back in Melee.

I gotta admit, though, the whole kit loses something when you take away the tipper. I feel like, assuming it would work, Lucina should have been tuned with like a weak base and tip but strong mid-blade, or something like that, rather than removing that aspect of the spacing mechanic altogether.

Isn't that just Roy and/or Shulk?

The tipper mechanic is genius. But I also think it's time to move away from it to. Lucina's complete lack of tipper is fine and gives her a niche.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think it's telling that Fox and Marth are above average in pretty much every game they've been in.

Definitely some of the most functional and intuitive movesets in the game that also manage to breathe life into characters whose source game was somewhat lacking in material. I don't think Fox's moveset gets enough credit for the way it represents the Arwing's functionality without feeling overt and gimmicky. Perfectly executed character from literal day one, and arguably even a little ahead of its time design-wise.

Yessir! Marth is my first character I use online cause he's just so " right " or whatever. I know Mario should fill this role too but until Ultimate I felt Marth was more well rounded despite not having a projectile. Mario is a god at this game lol Marth is... Somehow not as good at Ultimate he was in 4 or Brawl or Melee as if he's progressively getting edged out by not adopting newer moves. Oooooo maybe this is the path to the school of smash modernization!

 

[Gorgonzales]

Isn't that just Roy and/or Shulk?

The tipper mechanic is genius. But I also think it's time to move away from it to. Lucina's complete lack of tipper is fine and gives her a niche.

I'm curious, why do you think the tipper should be moved away from? It's a really unique tool that emphasizes/rewards proper spacing and is so influential in platform fighters that you got whole characters in other games based on the mechanics of the tipper, like Clairen from Rivals of Aether. Yes, Ultimate's tipper isn't the best version of the mechanic, but we don't have to stick with Ultimate's tipper.

There are lots and lots of things about Smash that should change. But I really don't think tipper is one of them.

 

[Mamboo07]

Toadette/Peachette would be cool.
Baby Mario/Luigi maybe...
Who else would make decent echos?

King D-Mind for Dedede.

Differences would be using belly mouth to inhale and wielding the axe instead of a hammer.

 

[Louie G.]

Lucina's complete lack of tipper is fine and gives her a niche.

Yeah, even though Lucina isn't a very interesting character to me I understand the intent behind her to create a Marth "for beginners" in a way. If you're not into the elegant, intricate playstyle of Marth and just want to go hog wild with a sword then it's nice to have the option. And then it comes at the expense of Marth's strongest ace in the hole. Personally I think Lucina should be made a bit weaker than she currently is (or Marth made even stronger) to accentuate this, I don't think she should be the outright optimal choice, but I digress.

I agree that something is certainly lost in the process, but... well, that's kind of the point I guess, and people seem to enjoy it. So it feels like a nice option to keep around, although I'd personally choose to see Roy return over Lucina as our "rushdown Marth".

 

[Sucumbio]

DarthEnderX had a good idea but I don't remember something about giving chrom a new moveset and making lucina his clone

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Nintendo: "DK's main villain is basically just a poor-man's copy of Bowser. See if Retro can come up with something a little more creative."

DK Fans: "We want our discount Bowser back!"

Too many differences in characterization and overall personality between the two for that kind of description of K Rool to really land for me, but hypothetically the similarities that were there may have played a factor to certain people at Nintendo. Its hard to say one or another.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm curious, why do you think the tipper should be moved away from? It's a really unique tool that emphasizes/rewards proper spacing and is so influential in platform fighters that you got whole characters in other games based on the mechanics of the tipper, like Clairen from Rivals of Aether. Yes, Ultimate's tipper isn't the best version of the mechanic, but we don't have to stick with Ultimate's tipper.

There are lots and lots of things about Smash that should change. But I really don't think tipper is one of them.

You misunderstand me.

Marth should always keep the tipper. It should never be removed.

I just think other characters should stop having variations of the mechanic as that robs it of its uniqueness. We have Roy and Lucina as clever variants. I don't think we need any more.