Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Swamp Sensei]

This would be a great move, you kill two birds with one stone — Ganondorf gets a revamped moveset and we finally get more F-Zero representation in the roster.

It really isn't.

It's just throwing Black Shadow under the bus so Ganondorf can have a good moveset. It's pretty telling that Black Shadow never gets brought up outside of this idea.

F-Zero fans usually go for Goroh anyways.

 

[dream1ng]

It really isn't.

It's just throwing Black Shadow under the bus so Ganondorf can have a good moveset. It's pretty telling that Black Shadow never gets brought up outside of this idea.

F-Zero fans usually go for Goroh anyways.

It's not throwing Black Shadow under the bus, that guy isn't going to get in unless it's this way. It'd be throwing him under the bus if he obviously could've gotten in regardless but then he was just made a clone. Not unlike Ganondorf.

It is sort of win-win. F-Zero fans do usually go for Goroh, and Goroh would be who we'd get if F-Zero got another original character. But that's not happening any time soon. At least an echo would give the series something. And you get to keep the Falcondorf moveset. While Ganondorf gets a moveset more based on the actual character.

It's not going to happen, but it's not really a losing situation for anyone other than whoever had unrealistic expectations for F-Zero's representation or those who wanted Ganondorf to stay how he is instead of being brought more in line with his character.

Thing is? Warlock Punch is not only something that fits with his moves, it fits his battle style way better than a slowly created projectile ever could. Those just leave him super open, and doesn't actually fit his playstyle(which is a brutal but slow beatdown, something he's more than open to doing within the games, quite constantly). Ganon/dorf is a character who can and will body you hard. And Smash actually exemplifies him a lot better than was expected. He does not do "fast projectiles". Even the Blazing Bats is intentionally slow. That's honestly the point behind them. Ganon/dorf is a larger character, and there's barely any fast projectiles(which don't make to put on a heavyweight either. If it's going to be a projectile that can do more than damage, as in pushing people around, it's always a bit slower to balance it correctly. Ridley's only projectile has little force behind it. Same with Bowser and Charizard's, who are all power-based characters. The stronger the projectile is, naturally the slower it is to make it useful).

Volcano Kick on the other hand is nothing like any of his moves or animations, and basically needs to go. Dark Dive is his only special right now that has no reference and is actually pretty bad. Warlock Punch, unsurprisingly, is also referenced in Hyrule Warriors and has become a minor signature move for him as well(same with the Reverse version). They're just a core part of him nowadays.

He also doesn't do projectiles that much anymore, more focusing on brutality at times. He's a physical character quite often, and his moveset is extremely fitting to his current style of characterization. It's just two moves do not work at all. Removing one of his most fitting moves also does not improve him(as noted above, the only kind of projectile that works is a slowly created one, as it's the types he actually consistently has used at any point. Mainly because he borrowed from Aganahim. Incidentally his moves have become his own(and often generally physical) that doesn't copy from others. Smash coincidentally has used and help influence his abilities slowly. Instead of copying an old character, he's now a physical powerhouse in canon, which is also when Brawl was able to use his new animations and concepts already inspired by Smash. It shaped who he is, giving him a real identity.

It would be nice to have a clearly better magical ability, but it's very difficult to pull off with a slower-paced character, without making them significantly worse. He's already using lots of magic in his physical attacks. The best is able to not remove better moves like Warlock Punch and makes it an optional move, like an extra move he can do. Much like a few others have secondary moves, holding down the A button to create his Energy Ball, and then throw it. It's also designed better in that it's very difficult to reflect(outside of normal reflective moves), but more or less can follow the canon well with a "only a Smash attack can deflect it", with a spinning version or moveable to reflect it(and only in the sense of something like Spinning Kong, not just the Screw Attack), making it actually interesting and making unique matchups. Meaning not a lot can actually reflect it outright either.

Otherwise, he needs an actual Reflector. His Forward Air is the best and most obvious example of it, since it's basically a Volleyball Strike~

I would take material the character actually uses over stuff he was given from an unrelated character from another series any day.

It's not like we're dealing with a competitively viable character anyway. Tweak away, for all I care, if it makes him more faithful to the source material.

 

[silenthunder]

I'd rather they put their resources towards adding new characters rather than tweeking characters people are already used to. Ganon has to be one of the most common characters online and he plays very different from everyone else. People wouldn't play Gannon if they hated his playstyles.

I think black shadow would be a fitting replacement but I do believe Goroh did better on the sakurai ballot as he's an assist trophy.

And even if they made ganondorph viable I'd be upset if Black Shadow wasn't. And the dorph isn't someone top player would want to see in top 8. Fast combo characters are the most hype to the most vocal audience. No matter what ganondorph would be a combo character or fast. That just doesn't fit the character.

I'd say put their efforts towards getting they're third parties back and try to get Crash. Put Sora on the base roster next time around. That'll bring the most hype.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It really isn't.

It's just throwing Black Shadow under the bus so Ganondorf can have a good moveset. It's pretty telling that Black Shadow never gets brought up outside of this idea.

F-Zero fans usually go for Goroh anyways.

It really is quite telling. Like they don't actually care about the character being interesting at all. It does help he can work as a clone of sorts to Ganondorf, but only because they actually are similar enough to work. They're both black magic users that are designed as "power" characters. It's not that the moveset is bad, it's just a bad excuse to add him alone. Now, the idea of him being a quick Echo of Ganondorf with minor move changes along with getting Goroh, an actual popular character? That would be neat in itself.

-----------------

Ganondorf was given multiple tweaks and buffs. Of course they attempted to make him viable in Ultimate, just like in 4. It's just he can't be because they didn't go the right route(giving him better approach options and a way to deal with projectiles). Not every balance attempt will work. There's no joke characters in Ultimate or anyone designed to be overall bad at all. No matter how you go about it, things won't work out perfectly. 80+ characters made that obvious to anyone. The most balanced are, like, four Echoes(Daisy, Richter, Dark Samus, Dark Pit), by not being mainly different from the original.

 

[dream1ng]

I'd rather they put their resources towards adding new characters rather than tweeking characters people are already used to.

Those aren't equal though. It's not the same resources to add a newcomer as it would be to tweak a veteran. The former is far higher. And if I had the choice between another newcomer or Ganondorf getting tweaked, I'd choose the newcomer too.

But I'd choose Ganondorf getting tweaked over a myriad of other things they do in development that take time and resources.

Ganon has to be one of the most common characters online and he plays very different from everyone else. People wouldn't play Gannon if they hated his playstyles.

It's true that Ganondorf does see a lot of use, so it's not like he's turning people away with his moveset. That's a fair point.

But if you were to imagine Ganondorf had not been yet added into Smash, and you were conceiving his moveset, the current one would not be desirable to most, I suspect. You can witness this by the fact that no other character has ever been widely suggested to be a semi-clone of a character from an unrelated series. Even when it's from the same series, you will unfailingly have those raise how the character should be unique.

People generally laud Smash for its faithful implementation of characters, and that's just something I wish was happening here.

I think black shadow would be a fitting replacement but I do believe Goroh did better on the sakurai ballot as he's an assist trophy.

Well, the Brawl poll influencing Goroh being an AT is complete conjecture. It could just be because Goroh does sort of take the place as second most visible character from the series, even if plot-wise, Black Shadow may be more important.

You can sort of see Sakurai acknowledges Goroh as the next in line for the series. Between the Melee intro, the AT, and just generally getting the most content for anyone other than Captain Falcon. Of course clones eschew that kind of thing, but in terms of original characters.

And even if they made ganondorph viable I'd be upset if Black Shadow wasn't. And the dorph isn't someone top player would want to see in top 8. Fast combo characters are the most hype to the most vocal audience. No matter what ganondorph would be a combo character or fast. That just doesn't fit the character.

The goal for the Smash team isn't to create a character that falls in line with who generally performs best competitively, it's just to create a faithful version of that character, and do their best to balance them. I'm not suggesting they'd turn Ganondorf into Joker or something.

I was just saying it's not like the current moveset was successful, from a competitive viability perspective.

I'd say put their efforts towards getting they're third parties back and try to get Crash. Put Sora on the base roster next time around. That'll bring the most hype.

I understand time and resources are finite, but they are plentiful enough to accomplish multiple things.

 

[Oracle Link]

Is it just me or is smash lacking in 2d Zelda Rep? i mean we have 3 Links all from 3d Titles and even Zelda while being from a 2d Game is from ALTTP Artwork and ergo looks completly Diffrent From how she appears in game!
Like The only 2d Link Stuf are 2 Albeit Pretty cool skinsd for Toon Link how about both of them Keep their Reffrences (LOZ and hero of legend) while using a modified version of the La Remake design

 

[Delzethin]

It really isn't.

It's just throwing Black Shadow under the bus so Ganondorf can have a good moveset. It's pretty telling that Black Shadow never gets brought up outside of this idea.

F-Zero fans usually go for Goroh anyways.

Yeah, Black Shadow's preferred driving style (and the stats of his vehicle) actually aren't a good fit for a "Falcon but slower and stronger" echo moveset. Shoving Ganondorf's current moveset onto him (sans sword attacks) would actually be a disservice to his fans.

Besides, there's a more interesting option for a Captain Falcon echo.



Can even do the knee! Seriously, that's canonically what High Jump Kick is.

 

[Oracle Link]

You know what part of zelda is too rarely brought up in smash conversation...
Gorons and Zoras they have like 0 Rep in smash (gerudos have the valley, twinrowa and ganondorf) both species are definitly not one shots and especially gorons have great moveset potential

 

[Stratos]

I read somewhere just now that Jérémie Covillault the French voice actor who plays Bowser in the French version of The Super Mario Bros Movie, mentioned a rumor that there will be a trilogy of The Super Mario Bros Movie. But as you will remember Nintendo and Universal, let alone Shigeru Miyamoto and Chris Meledandri had mentioned that there might be a Nintendo Cinematic Universe. Now which of the two is true no one knows and as some people tell me and write to us, let's stay tuned, because after all it is still the beginning, so we may wait a long time until we hear news about this.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Warlock Punch isn't as much of a problem. Just make it ranged, and armored. Not like fully ranged but semi ranged. Like a damn big blast of gloom energy about a Bowser sized distance in front of him, with some lingering effect. Down B is fine if it's turned into a different animation, like a weapon rush. With a spear possibly.

It's veryyyyyy possible to make it work without being all too drastic.

 

[Wunderwaft]

There is absolutely no way they can fit TotK's Ganondorf into Falcondorf in Smash, the character fights quite nothing like him, he doesn't even punch once in his boss fight. If anything TotK Ganondorf fights more like Byleth funnily enough. I don't get this obsession with completely preserving the entire moveset when you can just preserve the core theme of Ganondorf in Smash while still making him faithful to his games.

 

[fogbadge]

You know what part of zelda is too rarely brought up in smash conversation...
Gorons and Zoras they have like 0 Rep in smash (gerudos have the valley, twinrowa and ganondorf) both species are definitly not one shots and especially gorons have great moveset potential

don’t you try and take my throne as king of the Zelda fans, jafar

 

[Speed Weed]

Whenever people talk about Black Shadow in Smash, I just think about that SmashWiki April Fools' edit where someone turned his disambugation page into an entire manifesto about how much he sucks and why you should stop wanting him in Smash. It is absolutely glorious.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

This whole debate will come full circle when a new F-Zero finally comes out and Ganondorf is an unlockable racer similar to Black Shadow.

 

[fogbadge]

This whole debate will come full circle when a new F-Zero finally comes out and Ganondorf is an unlockable racer similar to Black Shadow.

along side a new chibi-robo and a 3D remake of mother 3

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Honestly, the most likely outcome is probably keeping Facondorf and just adding TotK Ganon as a new character.

Falcondorf might be disliked here (for very valid reasons), but people love that moveset. It’s stuck around for 20 years at this point. He was the most popular character online according to Sakurai. The cake has been baked in already. It’s gonna be hard to revamp Ganon and keep everyone happy.

Adding a new character kills two birds with one stone. You get your unique canonical Ganon and Falcondorf. Tears of the Kingdom, the biggest Zelda release so far, gets content. It’s not like getting a second Ganon would be out of the question. We have two Zeldas and three Links. I know some people might want different Zelda characters who aren’t triforce wielders. Personally, I don’t really care. Just make a fun canonical moveset and I’ll be happy.

 

[Diddy Kong]

along side a new chibi-robo and a 3D remake of mother 3

And the new Donkey Kong game that should've been released since last year. Don't forget Metroid Prime 4 either.

TotK Ganondorf won't be a full new character. The Ganondorf we'll get will be an awkward love child between Ultimate and TotK Demon King Ganondorf and we'll love it.

"We tried not to change Ganondorf too much for his old fans who love him as a dysfunctional mess, please understand [laughs]"

AND WE WILL ALL SUCK IT UP!!! And Ganondorf might end up being mid tier even. A solid mid tier even, like not in the 40% worst characters of the games mid tier.

And the real hardcore fan base will gather around newcomer Impa who is the real star of the show with a Age of Calamity styled moveset that's borderline OP and gets nerf bombed by the first patch like Smash 4 Greninja.

These are my predictions. Now offer me Mighty Bananas as compensation.

 

[RileyXY1]

I'm not expecting major changes to veterans' movesets unless we get a reboot with massive roster cuts and Sakurai completely steps down as director.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

And the new Donkey Kong game that should've been released since last year. Don't forget Metroid Prime 4 either.

TotK Ganondorf won't be a full new character. The Ganondorf we'll get will be an awkward love child between Ultimate and TotK Demon King Ganondorf and we'll love it.

"We tried not to change Ganondorf too much for his old fans who love him as a dysfunctional mess, please understand [laughs]"

AND WE WILL ALL SUCK IT UP!!! And Ganondorf might end up being mid tier even. A solid mid tier even, like not in the 40% worst characters of the games mid tier.

And the real hardcore fan base will gather around newcomer Impa who is the real star of the show with a Age of Calamity styled moveset that's borderline OP and gets nerf bombed by the first patch like Smash 4 Greninja.

These are my predictions. Now offer me Mighty Bananas as compensation.

This screams wishlist stuff, especially the Impa shenanigans.

Personally, TotK Ganon wouldn’t even be in my top 3 Zelda newcomer choices. Heck, he probably isn’t in my too 5 choices. But I am expecting it. It just makes too much sense with the way the Zelda cast has been approached. It also gives Sakurai the out of preserving Falcondorf in all his glory/infamy.

I find people tend to let their own personal biases get in the way of their predictions. It would be nice if the next smash game would perfectly bend to one’s desires, but that is never going to happen. It’s important to keep your predictions relatively grounded. It’s been especially clear to me in a post ultimate world, people have been letting perfect be the enemy of good. Maybe it’s because Ultimate gave them too little of what they wanted. Maybe Ultimate gave them everything they wanted and the sky is the limit. Who knows, but people tend to have their personal wants and predictions overlap to a worrying degree.

Letting emotions and want get in the way of your predictions is how you get really backwards logic. Like cutting Sheik for a unique Impa or that Geno was a secret front runner the whole time despite being incredibly niche. It’s important to reign in what you want and not have that dictate your reality. I would kill for a Smash game with Heavy, Spyro, Saki, and Officer Howard. I can be realistic enough to say despite my best wishes that isn’t going to happen. I can wish that we would see hard revamps for characters like Sonic, Ganon, Samus, or Young Link, even if they also is a pipe dream. Conversely, I don’t care if Genshin Impact or Bandana Dee get in Smash, but they probably will.

No one is perfect at separating their biases. But it’s important to divorce what you want from what you can realistically expect.

 

[Opossum]

I'll be honest, like...the argument of "we need to preserve his old play style" makes zero sense to me because the next game will almost certainly have substantial cuts to the roster. Those playstyles will be lost too, but at least Ganondorf fans would have, you know, the actual character in the game to play as anyway.

You never see anyone say "we need to preserve Piranha Plant's playstyle" when someone brings up Plant as a possible likely cut.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I'll be honest, like...the argument of "we need to preserve his old play style" makes zero sense to me because the next game will almost certainly have substantial cuts to the roster. Those playstyles will be lost too, but at least Ganondorf fans would have, you know, the actual character in the game to play as anyway.

You never see anyone say "we need to preserve Piranha Plant's playstyle" when someone brings up Plant as a possible likely cut.

I get what you're saying, but... wouldn't it be easier to just keep Falcondorf's moveset and give it to TOTK Ganondorf at that point? Like, preserving the old moveset as much as possible should (at least in theory) cut back on a good chunk of the workload compared to a brand new moveset for a character who hadn't had any meaningful changes for some odd 20 years. Heck, how do we even know they're gonna add TOTK Ganondorf to begin with? They didn't add BOTW Zelda despite what everybody and their grandma thought, y'know...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

PP wasn't around for 20+ years with a popular moveset. These comparisons don't really work. It's purely cutting a veteran who was there since Brawl or earlier(any kind, and especially without a very good reason like Licensing or Technical Issues. Cutting for the sake of cutting is meaningless and fanbase alienation at best) when essentially removing the moveset, and removing veterans is not a popular thing with the core fanbase(the casuals) either.

Nobody should be cut either if it can be helped, obviously. Clone characters aren't even considered easy cuts in development at all. The most highly technical ones to create are often the lowest priority, and sometimes so are ones who they intend to replace. There's a lot they could replace or remove, but it's extremely varied as to why. Keeping in mind the biggest cut was Mewtwo as well, and even they tried to get it back after Brawl as best as possible. After that, we had technical problems otherwise(all of Pokemon Trainer combined, Ice Climbers) and regular clones have had some bits of lower priority(Lucas, Wolf). Echoes are probably not going to ever be lower priority due to ease(with the only likely cut to ever happen would be if their parent is gone... which makes sense. They don't transfer movesets over to a new character entirely. That's not even what happened with Toon Link, as he was a unique case of updating with the rest of the GameCube cast, but existed as a design before even Wind Waker. It was just the latest young design, but was clearly not a graphical update. We've never had a case since, and we know Young Link is nothing more than a unique base that created a clone character in Toon Link). They've done nothing similar ever since, and it makes sense why. It's not a good practice to cut characters and replace them with similar variants, as it's always fanbase alienating. It's not a legitimately helpful practice. It's why movesets get updates while never leaving the core part of what makes them notable in Smash. Even the most changed up moveset, Bowser, still is a giant bruiser with lots of power and reasonable speed, along with the ability to breathe fire, grab opponents, and grow in size to become a Kaiju for a short time. The core didn't change, just pretty high tweaks. Ganondorf is pretty much the same thing in Ultimate. It's the same core feel, though not all can work with the Sword by that point(which is fair, as it's pretty different hitboxes, with at most some of the animations are slightly similar. The Down Smash and Up Smash have similar motions in which he swings his Sword VS swinging his Foot. They're still widely different regardless).

The reality is, Falcondorf is a highly popular moveset among most of the fanbase. It's not going to get cut when it doesn't solve anything but annoy most of the fanbase. We're still far more likely to get another Dorf(which also makes more sense, since only two of them even share a similar bodyshape, as the rest are just completely different entirely. And even TP's Dorf was pretty clearly highly different, much to many player's dismay. Going from a pretty good character into a "barely can move 2 inches in a few seconds" with an extreme speed reduction was not a good choice at any point. They barely salvaged him a little in 4, making him more fun to use because of the super armor and feeling like playing a murderous warrior with extreme strength. Ultimate kept the best of both worlds, but didn't much improve him otherwise(like giving him a way to deal with projectiles). While you could probably throw the moveset onto TOTK Dorf with ease, his bodyshape isn't really the same either, meaning it would be more like getting a new clone character compared to actually updating the moveset to be better. ...In which case, you don't cut a popular veteran for the sake of it. You just add a new character who will also be interesting and popular. There is no valid reason to remove Ganondorf's moveset, nor Sheik's, etc. Transferring it over to another character is just as bad, if not worse, because it's a laughable attempt at pleasing the fanbase, barely adhering to the vocal minority while doing nothing for majority who buy the actual game. They're the most important. TOTK Dorf obviously does not work with the Falcondorf moveset(though it can borrow some animations here and there), but is a popular enough character to be a new addition. Worst case scenario that is realistic is that he never gets added at all and we keep the same Zelda roster(with Young Link not making it back either). Best case is TOTK Dorf gets added as a 7th total character(though with YL likely to be gone, we'll still have 6. It's slightly better in that it's only up to 2 of each version of a character, though at least they're different people regardless. On another note, WW Dorf actually does fight like a brawler along with weapons and using magic to summon... and that's all the magic he bothers with, which is pretty close to the concept behind his Smash design. Magic is scarcely used.

It's a good thing Smash doesn't do massive roster reboots either, including moveset ones. They're purely alienating and doesn't do anything to improve the games. Canon is not as important as a properly functioning moveset. And trying to adhere to canon only works if you started the character off based upon that, and even then, it's not guaranteed to work. Ganondorf's moveset worked great in his first appearance too. A good middle of the road quick clone. They just failed to really do much with making it more viable again overall(which again, is understandable because there's 80+ characters. Or even in the 70 range at the start of Ultimate's base).

 

[Schnee117]

I get what you're saying, but... wouldn't it be easier to just keep Falcondorf's moveset and give it to TOTK Ganondorf at that point? Like, preserving the old moveset as much as possible should (at least in theory) cut back on a good chunk of the workload compared to a brand new moveset for a character who hadn't had any meaningful changes for some odd 20 years. Heck, how do we even know they're gonna add TOTK Ganondorf to begin with? They didn't add BOTW Zelda despite what everybody and their grandma thought, y'know...

No because TotK Ganondorf especially doesn't fit a brawler style moveset.
You're looking at either Big Body Byleth or a Heavy Samurai in the vein of Nagoriyuki, Hakumen and Genjuro.

It's nothing to do with whether or not they actually add him, it's that he's gonna be the popular Zelda pick for a while and that if he does get in, people are not going to accept the Falcondorf moveset.

 

[Opossum]

If Piranha Plant is too new of an example for some people to get behind, fine. There's Jigglypuff, a character who has been here even longer than Ganondorf. She's a popular suggestion for a cut, and move the goal post all you like, but the people who push back against the idea never bring up "but her playstyle!" It's always either a faulty "Original 12 will never be cut" claim or a claim of her being easy to make. She's proof that the playstyle preservation reasoning seems to only apply to Ganondorf, somehow.

Dismissing criticism of the current Ganondorf moveset with "well actually it's popular and is used a lot online and casually" ignores the fact that yeah, it's "popular," but also INCREDIBLY divisive and controversial. That can't be ignored. It's not just a vocal minority; this crops up even in casual circles.

You might be of the opinion (read: opinion) that being functional matters more than being canon, but in the eyes of many, there's a big problem: Ganondorf's current moveset is neither.

 

[Laniv]

Obviously, the solution is to cut Ganondorf entirely and replace him with Ganon, the big blue pig with the trident.

 

[Arcanir]

The problem with the suggestion of a second Ganondorf is that I'm not sure there would be a scenario this would play out. If there isn't a roster cut and the next game is a DX, we're not getting a large number of newcomers again similar to Ultimate, and of that small amount we'd get there's a larger number of potential newcomers from both first and third party options that can easily take precedence over another Ganondorf. It's particularly the case when we do consider that a common complaint with the Zelda roster is that it's only the triforce holders and that complaint would definitely be worse if we got a second Ganondorf. There would be reason for them to not prioritize a second Ganondorf over other more popular options. If we get a roster cut, then it's like Opossum said: If we're losing many movesets to begin with, then Ganondorf's being lost and changed to something else alongside them isn't exactly sticking out much more than those other lost movesets. Especially when the character himself would still be retained in some capacity.

Either way, I don't think there's a scenario where I'd see a second Ganondorf be done. It doesn't feel like something that would play out over other options, and quite frankly is still a band-aid solution since it would come with its own problems.

 

[Sucumbio]

Based: New Dorf with a "classic" DLC later
Colaced: ... and for free as a bonus if you buy the whole pass!
Trace of Lace: a ballerina alt consume

 

[HyperSomari64]

Trace of Lace: a ballerina alt consume

For all the characters, and a Clown costume for Assist Trophies and Poke Ball.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh, it sticks out wayyyyyy more than others. It's a Mewtwo situation. Losing the character is flabbergasting. Ganondorf is even worse in that he doesn't have the excuse of "being difficult to actually implement", as he's one of the easier additions. He's a vastly popular moveset(and Mewtwo's wasn't as popular of a moveset), which makes it a significantly worse situation. And he's popular because the moveset is used perfectly with a heavyweight and powerful character who directly has a murderous vibe that the moveset is designed for. Basically? Him being a physical powerhouse is intentionally part of his core characterization. Even in TOTK, he's still this. He just no longer uses the same kind of attacks, meaning he wouldn't work as an update. We really only got two Ganondorf design options; OOT and TP. WW would've been fine if his entire design wasn't completely diferent.

There's zero good reasons to cut the character and moveset. There's no good reason to transfer it over either. The moveset is hard tied to the character. Tweaking it is all that works without causing unnecessary dissent from most of the fanbase. It also throws Black Shadow hard under a bus as an excuse to add him while not actually caring about how the character could work(if he was an Echo of Falcon, he would not be using Dorf's moveset. Echoes don't work that way. They're extremely similar to the original. Ganondorf always played highly different from Falcon, even in Melee, and that's the only game where he played remotely similarly to him too). The point doesn't work. You're just getting a second Falcon moveset, not a redone Ganondorf cloned moveset in that way. But more importantly, you can tweak Ganondorf or add another Ganon or Dorf instead if you want a moveset that's more faithful to the games(which mind you, the moveset is surprisingly more faithful than expected. Except for Dark Dive and Volcano Kick, which don't really fit him in any way. The rest fit him perfectly).

You want an F-Zero character? Samurai Goroh exists. You want an Echo of Falcon? Blood Falcon actually works as intended. Unless you want Black Shadow to be a very fast character with very few differences from Falcon, then fair enough(though his bodyshape is more fitting to OOT Ganondorf anyway). But that's all you'd get with Black Shadow as a Falcon Echo. You want Black Shadow to play like Ganondorf? That means he'd be a Clone or Echo of Ganondorf. You want him to entirely take the moveset? Ganondorf gets fully cut and it's a replacement entirely. We don't get a new Ganon or Dorf either. Because there's no point to. You got the moveset, right? Sounds pretty dumb, but that's pretty much the point behind the wish. No, they won't make a new Dorf or Ganon just for the sake of it. TOTK Ganondorf isn't actually likely as a newcomer, he's just more likely than Ganondorf being completely changed over instead(meaning both or nothing). We know what a transferred over moveset entails, and it's literally Young Link to Toon Link... which ultimately is a different character in how they play overall and is just a new clone added while cutting the old one. Keep in mind this is the sole time a character was replaced, and they entirely cut them, not updated them to a different moveset overall. It's a one-time thing, but the only precedence we have for having a character's moveset on another(and do keep in mind it's not the actual moveset, but a similar one which is no different as if they didn't cut Young Link in any way) is because we're entirely cutting the original character. Yes, that means the precedent isn't entirely one either. There's zero good reason to believe Ganondorf would get uber changed and his old moveset would be on another. It's vastly unrealistic and doesn't follow any design philosophies.

TOTK Dorf's other thing is this; can he even do Falcondorf's current moveset model-wise without issues? If yes, then that's how TOTK Dorf would get in, just being a graphical update with minor moveset changes. He might have a somewhat new playstyle(much like Bowser does), but that's it. If it's not plausible, TOTK Dorf is lost to the void if he's not the 7th Zelda character. Hell, Ultimate Dorf plays quite differently from the first two Dorf styles. You can't make the same approaches due to speed and smash attack differences. He's already pretty heavily tweaked going into Ultimate. That's the most they've done. Tweak, but never change the core. Why would they want to change that? It's alienating, and even the current ones came close to doing so. That said, the most likely scenario overall is TOTK Dorf is at best some kind of Spirit and OOT/TP Dorf(depending what they find more interesting at the time) gets a costume(s) based upon him, while maybe the sword getting an aesthetic difference in some costumes too. I mean, Dorf has legitimately swung the Sword of Sages, which is a much thinner sword in canon, like his normal Broadswords in various games. Outside of WW, he does heavy swings and full power stabs. He can use a light sword like that, so they don't need to even change the sword usage in any way. Though once again, this only works if the animations aren't janky and can be transferred over properly. It may just be an Isabelle situation where the model is just too plain different(akin to WW Dorf being too different to OOT and TP Dorf. ...HW Dorf I have yet to look at to say much about, but I remember him being more or less OOT/TP-like).

-------------------

...I'm all for funny DLC costumes, that said.

 

[dream1ng]

Eventually the roster is going to go through more substantial shifts once the ample cuts begin, which are an inevitability, and then the sacrosanct way in which the current lineup is held will erode by necessity.

I'm not celebrating cuts, but I do think they'll bring us to a healthier perspective with less clinginess to everything on the roster. There's the pervading perspective that being fine with cuts is the same as supporting cuts. It's not - I don't wish for omission - it's just acknowledging a reality of games and not shying away from expecting it. It'd be a different story were Smash the only series that cut its characters.

But if you look at other fighting game fanbases, their attitude towards cuts is far less severe, because they happen regularly and usually in greater quantities. We are lucky Smash has had such good retention, but our volatile temperament around attendance can't be preferable.

Our current course isn't tenable. Sakurai has intimated as much. Things will change, we will lose characters, including to an extent and featuring some not commonly envisioned to lose. And it's not something to cheer, but skirting the idea will only leave more with which to reconcile. Not to say disappointment is unwarranted, but we can't act like this roster will remain mostly unaltered in perpetuity. I think we would benefit from returning to the old ethos of normalizing cuts and changes, because I believe the last few chapters of Smash have spoiled the audience, distorting how commonplace loss actually is.

Being more open (not eager, just open) to broader content loss would not just help prepare us for when it arrives, but can also de-escalate our current position where we don't really view the characters simply as... fighters on a roster in a video game. I'm a huge Smash fan like the rest of you, but at the end of the day, a lot of the roster can be removed or replaced, and not only would we still be fine, we'd land where so many other fanbases already live.

They could axe a popular character. Or a longstanding character. People would be upset. Understandably so. And then they'd keep playing and we'd come to terms with it. Because ultimately the stakes are not high. You've cut a character in a video game. Happens all the time elsewhere. It's not good for the fans, but I think it's good for perspective. Popularity matters but isn't always enough to prevent being cut or altered.

Though don't conflate popular/longstanding with seminal to an essential series and start punching a strawman. There are obviously some characters who run zero risk of being cut. Though, imo, not as many as others here would suggest.

For all we know, not being able to really match Ultimate, and/or Sakurai's potential more hands-off role in the future may be the impetus needed for a bigger sea change in Smash going forward. It seems more plausible now than ever before.

What we can do is appreciate what we have, celebrate positive developments, and remember that if a character is on the roster, they will always be on the roster in at least one game, and that game will always exist and be able to be played. You can never take away that W.

And no, I'm not saying they'll cut or revamp Ganondorf. Though it's not like his functionality is behind glass either. I'm speaking of general attitudes.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If there isn't a roster cut and the next game is a DX, we're not getting a large number of newcomers again similar to Ultimate, and of that small amount we'd get there's a larger number of potential newcomers from both first and third party options that can easily take precedence over another Ganondorf.

There are no newcomers more important than Ganondorf. To Smash, or Nintendo.

It also throws Black Shadow hard under a bus as an excuse to add him while not actually caring about how the character could work

There's no way TO care about how he could work. Like Captain Falcon or Fox, his home series provides nothing to use for a moveset.

Whatever Nintendo gives him, will be correct, because there's nothing for it to conflict with. Unlike Ganondorf.

(if he was an Echo of Falcon, he would not be using Dorf's moveset. Echoes don't work that way.

Ken and Chrom work that way. Especially Melee 'dorf.

You want an F-Zero character? Samurai Goroh exists. You want an Echo of Falcon? Blood Falcon actually works as intended. Unless you want Black Shadow to be a very fast character with very few differences from Falcon, then fair enough(though his bodyshape is more fitting to OOT Ganondorf anyway). But that's all you'd get with Black Shadow as a Falcon Echo. You want Black Shadow to play like Ganondorf? That means he'd be a Clone or Echo of Ganondorf. You want him to entirely take the moveset? Ganondorf gets fully cut and it's a replacement entirely. We don't get a new Ganon or Dorf either. Because there's no point to. You got the moveset, right? Sounds pretty dumb, but that's pretty much the point behind the wish. No, they won't make a new Dorf or Ganon just for the sake of it. TOTK Ganondorf isn't actually likely as a newcomer, he's just more likely than Ganondorf being completely changed over instead(meaning both or nothing).

 

[SPEN18]

Adding TOTK Ganon and also retaining Falcondorf as a separate fighter would IMO simply make the latter look even more awkward and outdated than ever.

Smash should be moving forward, increasing immersion and better realizing the dream of bringing its characters to life in a shared virtual universe, i.e. making characters more themselves and more distinct from each other rather than packing in clone after clone just for the sake of a big character count. Keeping in outdated concepts which were only added out of bare necessity more than two decades ago is not the way to sell people on a compelling new Smash that truly sets itself apart from past iterations of the franchise.

 

[Kriven]

Smash 6 roster leak!!!!!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

View attachment 373231

Smash 6 roster leak!!!!!

I know the roster is supposed to be smaller and this is a wishlist but...

Spoiler

A roster with Rabbid Peach but no Olimar, Ike, Lucario, Meta Knight Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Diddy Kong, Falco, Pit, Sheik, Little Mac, Villager or Shulk makes me feel ripped off. And this isn't even something I'm paying for.

And that's not even getting into the choice of newcomers or third parties.

1/10 As a wishlist, this doesn't appeal to me... at all. As a prediction, I find it ludicrous.

 

[dream1ng]

Echo is almost certainly going to be a malleable category that adapts to whichever clones a game produces, and I would be shocked if its parameters don't increase past the current confines defined solely by what exists right now. So many other aspects of Smash have lost their original perceived constraints predicated based on what was available at the time. Later to be amended upon further developments.

I imagine echo will too undergo reevaluation, once some new clone who carries that label but challenges the current view of what echoes are shows up and necessitates a redrafting of the criteria. As it is now, echo already encompasses clones of varying faithfulness to the model.

Echoes can have different moves, and despite common belief, echoes can have different attributes (Ken is faster than Ryu). And yet, other echoes are basically exactly the same. It's an ill-defined category by design, because the main point of the term was to mitigate backlash. There were "echoes" in Smash before the label. Look at the reception to Lucina and especially Dark Pit versus the clones of Ultimate, once the term was created.

So if some echo ended up being slower and stronger, maybe has a move or two different, all the fanbase is going to do is go "ok", because the sliding scale of what echo was thought to mean has already changed since it was first revealed, and is loose enough to not seem overly prohibitive.

There are no newcomers more important than Ganondorf.

That's true. But a second Ganondorf, maybe not.

View attachment 373231

Smash 6 roster leak!!!!!

It's not the size, it's what you did with it

 

[ZephyrZ]

Every change we've seen to Ganondorf to make him match his canon abilities so far (flame choke, Doriyah, ect) have been recieved really well by his fans. I think it shows that he doesn't need Falcon's framework to be popular. Heck, I'd argue that at this point he doesn't resemble Falcon that closely anyway and is more of a weird amalgamation of himself and the captain.

There's several reasons Gandondorf's moveset is so popular. It's flashy. It's simple. And he hits really hard. It makes it easy for anyone to play Ganondorf and have fun doing it. And on top of that it's on fan-favorite Ganondorf.

I think that's what's core to Ganondorf. His simplicity and his raw poper. Warlock Punch embodies this, but I don't think it's neccessary to keep it in order to keep Ganondorf true to his Smash playstyle.

I think as long as a Ganondorf moveset hits those criterea (simple, flashy and very strong) he'll continue to be a fan favorite, revamp or otherwise. I believe The Doriyah shows that.

I also don't think Black Shadow would actually be that popular as a successor to our current Ganon for similar reasons. At least part of Ganondorf's popularity is that he's Ganondorf. And he'd probably have to lose things like the Doriyah anyway.

 

[Gengar84]

I’m kind of mixed on Ganondorf in Smash. I’ve been a Ganondorf main since Melee and I do find his moveset fun to use but at the same time, I really prefer when a character can stay as true as possible to their abilities in the mainline games. Ganondorf’s boss battle was only particularly intersting in OoT (I haven’t gotten that far in TotK yet) in regards to intersting moves to pull from. I think he just performed basic sword stikes in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker. Classic Ganon also has a lot of interesting moves Ganondorf can pull from. There’s also Hyrule Warriors that have him two interesting movesets. I think it would be cool if they could basically make him an amalgamation of all of Ganondorf’s portrayals. As he is now, he’s kind of a mix between Captain Falcon, Ike, and Cloud and doesn’t have a ton of truly original moves.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Something to keep in mind is Ganondorf does not have a lot of kill moves despite hitting hard; his only reliable ones are his Up Smash(barely), Forward Smash, Warlock Punch, and Reverse Warlock Punch. Volcano Kick is godawful and would go anyway, but you're cutting his only usable ones(and at most, only one would be good by that point) in half or less. Why would you take away his other kill options(namely the usable ones)? Especially when one has Super Armor or is a fast enough version to work. Warlock Punch, regardless, is not only a move that fits his canon self(he has done a charged energy punch in canon, so it cannot be legitimately claimed it's got no basis in canon whatsoever), but it makes him unable to kill even more. There's zero good reason at this point to remove it, because you aren't improving him by adding a slow as hell chargeable projectile(the only kind that could ever fit his playstyle), which only makes him an easier target to hit. And it won't get Super Armor either, because that's an extremely poor way to balance a powerful projectile. The point behind strong ones is that they're hard to hit with but deal massive damage and force, especially in these kind of games. And if it's charge-based, it means you have to leave yourself wide open to get its full effect. Being able to roll to temporarily keep the current charge is fine, but that's how they're balanced out. No matter how powerful it could be(even to the point of not reflectable), it will have a downside like that. Otherwise, it won't exist. There is no "other way" to balance it.

By reliable, I meant being easy to hit with. That’s only 3-4 moves at best. Sorry for the confusion.

Volcano Kick, and as I said, Dark Dive, both don't fit his character and are actually terrible moves. While the latter isn't nearly as bad, it doesn't really do much for him that a Teleport or even Dark Fists don't do better. They both fit how he fights more while keeping the character core. And he still is pretty clearly Falcondorf in terms of animations entirely to this day. It's pretty silly to pretend he's that far off when he hasn't even remotely shed the moveset. That said, it's a big core to his identity.

His biggest canon ability actually missing that directly would make him remotely better is his reflector. He's able to use his cape to instantly reflect a projectile. The lack of this is what is making him horrible in competitive play. At most, Volcano Kick otherwise has done so. Warlock Punch is not some bad move(outside of, what, Brawl and arguably Melee at best?) at this point. It's a good move, one that resembles his Earthquake Punch(it's pretty much the same ability, just done in a different manner. Like, there's no tangible difference between them except what the target and element is. Ganondorf barely uses electricity, and he only has a minor usage of his darkness magic in Smash too, so removing it is even worse. He actually uses his core elements in Smash pretty well. ...Volcano Kick is, coincidentally, not a core element or anything).

Spoiler

I have yet to see his boss fight in TOTK, and I'm aware of the Fireblight Ganons, but they are a weird one in that they're supposed to be more akin to Phantom Ganons, so more like created creatures than strictly Ganon himself. Phantom Ganon also reappears in TOTK.

 

[ZephyrZ]

It's so funny to me that when talking about super heavies, people act like a move has to kill at 60% to he a kill move.

Basically every aerial or tilt Ganondorf has kills with good positioning at a reasonable percent.

 

[Sucumbio]

If they change his recovery I think he becomes way more viable. Replace it with a canonical move and he pleases purists and competitive players. What that move is, I don't know.