Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Wunderwaft]

Hey Ganondorf was talked about. It's a really topical time to put out my Ganondorf (Tears of the Kingdom) moveset. Extreme spoilers so be warned.
Instead of a rough n tumble brawler, now he's more of a weapon-wielder befitting his depiction in Tears of the Kingdom.

Additionally, I went in with the mindset of this being a truly "new" character, one that was hypothetically introduced in today's era and without the obligatory holdovers of tradition, intentionally using as little from Ganondorf's old moveset as possible.

Ganondorf in this incarnation by far has the MOST to work with in terms of pure moveset potential so I really hope next Smash capitalizes on his renewed appearance instead of relying on the shoddy poorly considered moveset he's been stuck with and only receiving minor changes over the years.

AFTER A LONG SLUMBER, THE DEMON KING REAWAKENS...​

SPOILERS FOR THE LEGEND OF ZELDA: TEARS OF THE KINGDOM.

Spoiler: Overview

The Menace Unleashed:
Once again, the Demon King is reborn. Unlike his previous incarnation as a warlock with a penchant for brawling, this Ganondorf is a well-trained warrior through and through. He is a master of arms, using every ounce of his strength to wield powerful Gerudo weapons to cleave and crush any foes beneath him. Additionally the power of the secret stone has augmented his very being allowing him to channel his innate darkness and manifest it physically as a force that seeps into the earth and corrupts all those who touch it. Like his previous incarnation he maintains the bone-crushing power he once had, but this time his agility has gotten significantly better and his armaments allow him unprecedented range for a super-heavyweight. In terms of sheer power, he rules over all, for that is what a king must do.

Spoiler: Mechanic

Gloom:
Ganondorf's overflowing malevolence manifests physically as a black-red darkness that lies on top of surfaces, lasting for a short period of time before fading and inflicting continued damage to those that step over it. Furthermore, getting directly hit by any of Ganondorf's fearsome "gloom" attacks infects the enemy with a debuff that gives them slight damage over time. This effect is applied to all of Ganondorf's Specials and Smash attacks, meaning those attacks in particular are scary even beyond their already sizeable power.

Spoiler: Specials

Neutral Special: Gloom Cylone
-Ganondorf charges a spin attack similar to Link's except it's only one revolution. The spin itself at minimum charge is very quick and moderately powerful, acting as both a good "get-off-me" tool and as a combo finisher. It covers the area in gloom in a small area around him.

Side Special: Gloom Skewer
-Ganondorf transforms his sword into the spear and quickly charges dark energy into it before rapidly charging forward across the ground, stopping to do a lethal stab forward when an enemy is in front of him. Along the way, he leaves a trail of Gloom.

In the air, he only does the powerful stab, but that stab itself still gives him a lot of momentum for recovery. Alternatively that stab can function as a powerful albeit slow offstage stock ender.

Down Special: Gloom Eruption
-Ganondorf transforms his sword into the metal club and holds it reverse grip, charging dark energy around himself. He then stabs the club into the ground, causing a massive explosion and spreading gloom around a large area around himself. Depending on how long it's charged, the explosion and gloom spread will be bigger.
Additionally, if Ganondorf is hit with a melee attack, he will automatically armor through and activate the move, acting as a sort of counter-offensive attack.

In the attack is released in midair, Ganondorf will dive to the earth and stab it down there, detonating it all the same. While he has a stabbing hitbox as he falls, he loses his counter property. This will allow Ganondorf a way of reaching foes beneath himself while also providing another option to fall down and attempt to escape his disadvantage state.

Up Special: Gloom Vector
-Ganondorf does a powerful rising uppercut that he follows up with by summoning a bow and firing an arrow wreathed in dark energy diagonally downwards. It has a unique effect in that wherever the arrow lands, it will start generating a growing area of gloom that spreads out over a period of time before fading. Provides Ganondorf with a reliable out of shield option and also additional stage control.

Spoiler: Normals

Jab Starters: Elbow-Spinslash
-Ganondorf does a quick elbow strike with his free arm and follows up with an outward spin slash and leads to one of two different finishers. Fast and standard as far as jab starters go, though the slash has a lot of range for a jab, and knocks the enemy inwards for the follow-ups.

Jab Simple Finisher: Ore Smasher
-If Ganondorf does a simple finisher, he quickly transforms the sword into a club and swings outward, knocking them away and killing at high percent.

Jab Rapid Finisher: Flurry Rush
-If Ganondorf does his rapid finisher, he transforms the sword into a spear and does multiple stabs forward, ending with a wide cleave that knocks them away. Much weaker but does a lot of damage and has a large amount of range.

Forward Tilt: Gerudo Combination
-Ganondorf does a series of 3 diagonal cuts that lunge slightly forward. The slashes are on different inputs so the player can mix up the opponent on when he stops if it's blocked. Good reaching move and the final hit consistently kills at high percent.

Down Tilt: Flame Wreath
-Ganondorf wreaths his free hand with dark energy and chops at the opponenet's feet, his sleeve wreathed in gloom energy. Pops enemies up for aerial comboes and is a relatively quick, long-reaching, and safe poking tool.

Up Tilt: Beast Howl
-Ganondorf roars and lets loose a dark shockwave resonating around him, launching anyone away, serving to protect Ganondorf from both sides and within the air

Dash Attack: Cleave
-Ganondorf dashes forward and does a horizontal slash. Has a large amount of killing power and is decently fast, but only if it lands at the tipper sweet spot.

Spoiler: Smashes

Forward Smash: Gloom Sword
-Ganondorf wreaths his sword with energy and uses both hands to swing the gloom sword forward with all his might, increasing its normal length with a blade made of dark energy, viciously slicing enemies a fair distance away and killing very early. Mediocre speed but it's fast enough to catch people on unawares.

Down Smash: Gloom Club
-Ganondorf transforms his sword into the metal club and leaps into the air, slamming the club downwards and causing a massive shockwave. This evasive maneuver deals a large amount of shield damage and spikes enemies on the ledge on top of obviously being a great killing blow.

Up Smash: Gloom Spear
-Ganondorf transforms his sword into the spear and spins it repeatedly above his head, catching all foes above him before slashing forward and knocking everyone caught away forwards.

Spoiler: Aerials

Neutral Air: Whirlwind
-Ganondorf slashes the sword upwards in a wide arc in front of him. One of Ganondorf's most reliable moves, coming out fast, covering a wide arc in front of him and easily fitting in combos, lifting enemies further into the air in front.

Forward Air: Helm Splitter
-Ganondorf readies the sword above his head and violently slashes vertically in front of him. Very similar to his old forward air but with slightly more range on account of using a sword and is faster in general. Though it lacks as much power that the original had, the version is still extremely powerful and the versatility makes it more likely to actually be used and land.

Down Air: Wizard's Foot
-Ganondorf stomps diagonally down with one foot, spiking anyone caught underneath. It's a bit faster than his old spike, but has a narrower and more specific hitbox. Regardless it remains the same knockback power it used to, and also has increased shield damage to compensate.

Up Air: Reverse Thrust Kick
-Ganondorf does a midair splits kick aimed diagonally upwards. Has a similarly narrow hitbox but comes out relatively quickly and is very powerful. Useful for securing kills for the attacks that sent the enemy upwards.

Back Air: Reverse Punt
-Gaondorf does a backflip and then kicks behind him, spiking opponents caught in the sweetspot behind himself. Has a very strange hitbox that covers above and directly behind Ganondorf but comes out quickly and hits hard as well, making it a very reliable move to check opponents from doing aerial approaches.

Spoiler: Grabs/Throws

Grab: Flame Choke
-Ganondorf leans forward and grabs with their free hand infused with dark energy.

Pummel: Corrupt
-Ganondorf causes an explosion of dark energy to detonate, damaging the opponent.

Forward Throw: Piercing Kick
-Ganondorf lightly tosses the enemy into the air and follows up with a straight horizontal lunging kick to their midsection as they fall that knocks them at a sharp angle horizontally. It kills only at high percent, but at the ledge, it puts the enemy at an extremely disadvantageous position.

Down Throw: Volcano Kick
-Ganondorf throws the grabbed opponent onto the ground and does a crushing axe kick that explodes on impact with the ground and launches them upwards, being by far his strongest killing throw.

Up Throw: Flame Wave
-Ganondorf holds his foe high above and charges a powerful blast of dark energy that blasts them diagonally upwards with weak knockback, leading to more combos. Uniquely, this is the only move aside from his smashes and specials that applies gloom, making it very scary to either block or challenge Ganondorf.

Back Throw: Cast Off
-Ganondorf skewers the enemy with the gloom sword and then throws them off behind himself. Only average as a throw but at high percent and at ledge it could kill at high enough percent.

Spoiler: Final Smash

FINAL SMASH: The Demon King's Blood Moon
-Ganondorf gathers a huge amount of dark energy and activates his secret stone, causing a giant swirling pillar of darkness to sweep around him, drenching the sky in blood red and transforming him into his Demon King form. Anyone caught by this is launched into a cinematic where Ganondorf leaps out of the pillar of darkness riding a demonic horse and wielding his spear, riding out and slashing anyone caught with a giant slash of dark energy.

I have to admit I completely forgot that gloom could be incorporated as part of Ganondorf's moveset, which is funny considering how much of a pain in the ass it was in the game.

 

[fogbadge]

Not under my hypothetical scenario, no. It's not about the distance between the character's debut and Smash's release, it's about the distance between roster being assembled and the character's debut. Smash 4's roster was assembled in 2012, they left a spot that would eventually go to Greninja, whose game released in 2013. Then Smash released in 2014. Same thing with Incineroar, who debuted a year after Ultimate's project plan.

That was a one year window between roster creation and the character's release. My hypothetical has a two year window: the roster selection this year, and Gen 10 releasing in 2025. I don't know if allocating a placeholder for a character that far away is realistic, it hasn't happened before.

They weren't able to do it with Xenoblade 2, which released two years after Ultimate's roster was compiled. It was timed out. Even though it released a year before Ultimate.

And that's under the scenario of this being the year the roster was assembled. It could've been last year, isn't that when Sakurai said he was working on his new project? So, like I said, the roster would have to be compiled no earlier than 2024 to not be unprecedented in this regard.

i am not getting into an argument over a hypothetical. again

they want to make a The Legend of Zelda movie as well and if they do I'm sure that will be a success too.

not if i can help it

 

[Stratos]

not if i can help it

You mean you're going to help make The Legend of Zelda movie?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that Zelda movie deal being going through. It'll be sweet for it to hit the big screens. It's more niche than Mario, so it won't have an instant amount of tickets by default, but it also is still something that is really difficult to screw up nowadays. Even the cartoon did surprisingly well(it only went under and stopped at 13 episodes because the Super Mario Bros. Super Show went under, which it was hard tied to), and there's a huge amount of love even for the CD-i cutscenes(despite the games not being stellar gameplay-wise. Though the fan reduxes of them are actually way better due to a better controller and refined gameplay. Keeping in mind the originals were mostly mediocre too gameplay-wise, it's just that the controller was so sucky you couldn't tell that they weren't somewhat broken. Not outright messes, compared to a lot of other games, hoo boy). But mainly, Link as a character who talks was always given a unique personality. So they're able to quite easily present him in a fun and entertaining manner. He's often boring in the games, till WW started giving him something to do besides "damage grunting". He has minor dialogue otherwise, showing a small personality in a few games, and rarely has actual voice acting(a bit during the Switch era games. It's nothing major, but we know he's given actual but subtle personality).

So it's just a matter of finding a personality they want, and applying it. He doesn't need to be dialogue heavy at all. Saying few words works too. Being silent doesn't really work nor is needed. He's not really a silent protagonist anymore(and only was close to that idea at times. Zelda II immediately subverted it, and to be fair, there's more than one Link).

The movie's not an instant seller, but it's going to do pretty well as a subject, due to being an extremely popular franchise. Selling well isn't an issue on its own. Whether they properly can transfer the movie over into something interesting with a clearly stronger plot than the Mario Movie(which while a good movie in itself, clearly could've done a bit more with it. It's really the only core weakness, in that it's just way too safe. Having a tad more plot/characterization would've done rather well, as we already know that putting more into it is still quite a selling product. The RPG's are quite popular sellers, regardless of the gameplay having minor issues from time to time). However, while the Zelda franchise has an issue with its characters often not being very deep, but still interesting, this is less of an issue for a movie. Story is more important to Zelda than Mario is, so it's quite a bit easier to make a story-driven movie in itself, and there's more than enough material to have interesting characters. At worst, some will be a little less deep than hoped(a problem the Champions have. They're awesome characters, but they aren't given enough time to really shine in BOTW in itself. New Champions I cannot say yet).

 

[dream1ng]

i am not getting into an argument over a hypothetical. again

The point wasn't the hypothetical scenario I posed, it was that just because Gen 10 may be out, doesn't inherently mean it will be reflected on Smash 6's roster. It comes down to the timing of multiple factors. The hypothetical was just an example of it not panning out.

 

[fogbadge]

You mean you're going to help make The Legend of Zelda movie?

i mean i'm going to burn illumination to the ground

The point wasn't the hypothetical scenario I posed, it was that just because Gen 10 may be out, doesn't inherently mean it will be reflected on Smash 6's roster. It comes down to the timing of multiple factors. The hypothetical was just an example of it not panning out.

and my point was there's yet to be a smash game without a fighter from the latest pokemon gen and based on what sakurai told us he deliberately leaves it to work that way

 

[Delzethin]

Which Pokémon generation gets a newcomer always comes down to timing...and it's more specific than most casual fans realize. Can often come down to when a generation hits shelves in the middle of the game's development. Remember, it takes roughly half a year to create a new fighter from scratch, and Smash doesn't like pulling newcomers from games that aren't at least close to finished at the time the decision is made. Sakurai got burned by Roy in Melee--a delay late in FE6's development pushed it back past Melee's launch date when it was originally slotted to be out first, and it led to Melee getting Roy's personality dead wrong--and Smash has actively avoided repeating that. Corrin was not an exception to this--Fire Emblem Fates was out in Japan 7 1/2 months before Corrin was added to Smash 4, so all of the character's details and abilities had been finalized by the time Sakurai asked around.

Basically, Smash 6 will only have a newcomer from Gen 10 if Gen 10's first games are out far enough ahead of Smash 6's launch date that there's time to wait for Gen 10's first games to be close to ready, pick a newcomer from the then-nearly-finished product with all of the characters' art, lore, and other details intact (Which is how Greninja was chosen, remember?), and still have more than enough time to finish the chosen newcomer's development and test how they interact with everything else in the game. If any of that isn't doable, we're looking at a Gen 9 newcomer instead.

Greninja made it into Smash 4 because Gen 6 began a year before Smash 4 hit shelves. That's probably the closest Smash can cut it when it comes to new generations.

 

[dream1ng]

and my point was there's yet to be a smash game without a fighter from the latest pokemon gen and based on what sakurai told us he deliberately leaves it to work that way

It's only worked so far because the distance between the project plan and the Gen was a year. If the character is too far away from the roster creation it won't work, because they'll be past that stage of development, like they were with XC2.

Sakurai leaves a spot for the Pokemon, but he has the rough knowledge of when that placeholder will get filled. TPC/GF knows when the gen is targeted for, and therefore when the characters will be ready. Sakurai works off that, because communication with the various devs is part of Smash development. And so far they've all been ready within the following year. Past that, and there's precedent of the window having lapsed.

If the character doesn't fit the timeframe, they're not going to wait to start developing Smash or put development on pause, thereby pushing back the release, for the sake of the promotional Pokemon. They'll just go for who they can promote at that time. Or they'll do DLC.

 

[fogbadge]

It's only worked so far because the distance between the project plan and the Gen was a year. If the character is too far away from the roster creation it won't work, because they'll be past that stage of development, like they were with XC2.

Sakurai leaves a spot for the Pokemon, but he has the rough knowledge of when that placeholder will get filled. TPC/GF knows when the gen is targeted for, and therefore when the characters will be ready. Sakurai works off that, because communication with the various devs is part of Smash development. And so far they've all been ready within the following year. Past that, and there's precedent of the window having lapsed.

If the character doesn't fit the timeframe, they're not going to wait to start developing Smash or put development on pause, thereby pushing back the release, for the sake of the promotional Pokemon. They'll just go for who they can promote at that time. Or they'll do DLC.

see this is why I said I don’t want to argue hypotheticals because you’re entire flawed argument is based on one

we don’t know the next smash is in development
we don’t know when the next console will be out
we know gen 10 will be 2025 cause that’s how they do things
we have no reason to think the next smash game would have a small dev time
we don’t know when the Pokémon placeholder gets filled in
we know greninja had to be based on concept art
we know tpc like the newest gen to be promoted cause of everything they do
we know it takes less than a year to make a character
and did sakurai ever what year any of the project plans were

 

[Dukefire]

It has been 5 years since the reveal, so if any plans for the next smash bros development has begun, then Gen 9 seems to be the best choice. Plus, Scarlet and Violet's DLC (Legends Arceus as well) isn't finished yet.

It is just me, but which pokemon in Gen 9 is the majority pick as the next rep?

 

[Perkilator]

It has been 5 years since the reveal, so if any plans for the next smash bros development has begun, then Gen 9 seems to be the best choice. Plus, Scarlet and Violet's DLC (Legends Arceus as well) isn't finished yet.

It is just me, but which pokemon in Gen 9 is the majority pick as the next rep?

Well, Meowscarada and Tinkaton are fan favorites, from what I’ve seen.

 

[Dukefire]

Well, Meowscarada and Tinkaton are fan favorites, from what I’ve seen.

Tinkaton- a small pokemon packing with a giant hammer, strength and intelligence. All gauging into shooting down Corviknights. Would be deemed as a heavyweight as the hammer weights a TON.
Meowscarada- A magician pokemon with attack and speed stats with a personality of deep devotion and jealousy. Considered as a mid to light weight with its potential of setting up traps and mind games.

 

[fogbadge]

Well it should be dachsbun

 

[dream1ng]

see this is why I said I don’t want to argue hypotheticals because you’re entire flawed argument is based on one

Hypothetical scenarios are the exact necessary rebuttal to a sweeping absolute claiming Gen 10 will incontrovertibly be on the roster, because all it takes to dismantle that claim is to provide plausible counter-scenarios. Which by their nature are hypothetical.

Your defence so far has mainly been claiming that my arguments are hypothetical. Of course they are. So are yours. You may be treating your claim as fact, but it is just a hypothesis. And you know what hypotheses are, don't you? They're hypothetical.

But the counter-scenarios are not implausible. Which means there are possible outcomes where Gen 10 isn't on the roster.

we don’t know the next smash is in development
we don’t know when the next console will be out

I've never claimed we did. My point was giving realistic scenarios without Gen 10 on the roster, not accounting for every possible outcome.

we know gen 10 will be 2025 cause that’s how they do things
we have no reason to think the next smash game would have a small dev time

I agree. And those are the estimate I've given in all my examples.

we don’t know when the Pokémon placeholder gets filled in
we know greninja had to be based on concept art
we know it takes less than a year to make a character

But we can look at how far away characters have been who still get added, and compare them to how far away characters who miss the boat are, and establish a tentative window where future additions seem feasible versus infeasible.

It's better than basing it on how they included the most recent gen without factoring in the relation in timing to the project plan.

we know tpc like the newest gen to be promoted cause of everything they do

The thing is, if Gen 10 is too distant when they're choosing base, Gen 9 will still be the newest gen at time of selection.

and did sakurai ever what year any of the project plans were

Yes, Brawl's was 2005, 4's was 2012 and Ultimate's was 2015.

 

[fogbadge]

Actually we’re both forgetting that sakurai is now semi retired as probably won’t be as hands on in the next smash game so everything that came before probably doesn’t matter

 

[Sucumbio]

Tinkaton- a small pokemon packing with a giant hammer, strength and intelligence. All gauging into shooting down Corviknights. Would be deemed as a heavyweight as the hammer weights a TON.
Meowscarada- A magician pokemon with attack and speed stats with a personality of deep devotion and jealousy. Considered as a mid to light weight with its potential of setting up traps and mind games.

Is it okay I read that in the Pokedex voice from the show? Lol!

 

[SPEN18]

Actually we’re both forgetting that sakurai is now semi retired as probably won’t be as hands on in the next smash game so everything that came before probably doesn’t matter

I definitely see many comments which seem predicated on Sakuraisms continuing in full force. Let's not fall into the trap of assuming the next game will be so much like Ult in roster philosophy.

That said, the new director will likely be drawing inspiration from Sakurai's model, so not everything will be different of course. And statements based on what's happened in the past are still more grounded than assuming a new director would usher in a radical shift in a particular area, but then again, said statements based on past trends are also on shakier ground than ever before.

As much as I don't like to admit it, some things like "obligatory newgen mon" have a lot to do with Nintendo and not just Sakurai himself, but still a fresh perspective on things might be the best chance we've had in a while for getting a reversal of trends like that. After all, there are creative ways to use evergreen oldgen mons to still market the newer games, for example. In general, I hope the next director comes with ideas to freshen things up like that, as some of Sakurai's roster trends, whether they're completely his fault or not, have started to run their courses.

 

[fogbadge]

I definitely see many comments which seem predicated on Sakuraisms continuing in full force. Let's not fall into the trap of assuming the next game will be so much like Ult in roster philosophy.

That said, the new director will likely be drawing inspiration from Sakurai's model, so not everything will be different of course. And statements based on what's happened in the past are still more grounded than assuming a new director would usher in a radical shift in a particular area, but then again, said statements based on past trends are also on shakier ground than ever before.

As much as I don't like to admit it, some things like "obligatory newgen mon" have a lot to do with Nintendo and not just Sakurai himself, but still a fresh perspective on things might be the best chance we've had in a while for getting a reversal of trends like that. After all, there are creative ways to use evergreen oldgen mons to still market the newer games, for example. In general, I hope the next director comes with ideas to freshen things up like that, as some of Sakurai's roster trends, whether they're completely his fault or not, have started to run their courses.

well my thinking is that if sakurai is going to be less hands on next time then I’d think there’s a good chance they’ll just do what they did with ultimates dlc

and if you’re right and the new Pokemon is more to do with nintendo than sak then yes the debate still may count. though I think the new Pokémon is down to TPC and I don’t think they care what’s feasible

 

[SPEN18]

well my thinking is that if sakurai is going to be less hands on next time then I’d think there’s a good chance they’ll just do what they did with ultimates dlc

and if you’re right and the new Pokemon is more to do with nintendo than sak then yes the debate still may count. though I think the new Pokémon is down to TPC and I don’t think they care what’s feasible

It won't just be "what they did with Ult's DLC" for base game because the base game selection process is always necessarily different than the DLC selection process. For example, the rate of third party newcomers in Ult's DLC would not be sustainable for base game newcomers.

 

[Opossum]

Honestly, even leaving my bias aside, the only way I can see them adding a fully unique Paldea Pokémon in a hypothetical post-Paldea Smash game is if they went for Gholdengo, and that's only if they wanted to celebrate the 1000 Pokémon milestone, since that's pretty much the entire reason why Gholdengo exists.

 

[Dukefire]

If there is something that Sakurai kept in all the games he created, it is simplicity. In the form of "Kirbyism".

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

If there is something that Sakurai kept in all the games he created, it is simplicity. In the form of "Kirbyism".

Wait, Kirbyism? Is this referring to the simplicity of Smash's design, or Smash's idolization of Kirby as a character?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Wait, Kirbyism? Is this referring to the simplicity of Smash's design, or Smash's idolization of Kirby as a character?

Pretty sure he was referring to fabled GameFAQs user Heart2Heart (a.k.a. Kokoro) and their hatred towards Sakurai and his Kirby and Kid Icarus bias.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Wait, Kirbyism? Is this referring to the simplicity of Smash's design, or Smash's idolization of Kirby as a character?

The former.

 

[Delzethin]

Won't lie, I think Ultimate's DLC lost the plot a little when it came to "Kirbyism". One or two newcomers with high learning curves is fine, but the Fighters Passes had several.

Wonder if that's another reason why Byleth and Pyra/Mythra are so commonly played? Their movesets and fighting styles are easier to wrap one's head around. On top of half the community underestimating how popular first party characters can be, but that's a different topic.

 

[dream1ng]

Actually we’re both forgetting that sakurai is now semi retired as probably won’t be as hands on in the next smash game so everything that came before probably doesn’t matter

No, everything that came before doesn't not matter, because until we see the effect of whatever Sakurai's role is in the future, the chance that the practical difference is negligible is entirely possible, and then all those earlier scenarios would still be entirely feasible.

Especially because promotional characters don't happen because of Sakurai, they come at the behest of the dev, and because the window to add future characters boils down more to logistics and avoiding counterproductivity or delays during development than some Sakurai eccentricity.

Again, my point is to only provide plausible scenarios. Not say any specific one is a definitive certainty.

 

[fogbadge]

No, everything that came before doesn't not matter, because until we see the effect of whatever Sakurai's role is in the future, the chance that the practical difference is negligible is entirely possible, and then all those earlier scenarios would still be entirely feasible.

Especially because promotional characters don't happen because of Sakurai, they come at the behest of the dev, and because the window to add future characters boils down more to logistics and avoiding counterproductivity or delays during development than some Sakurai eccentricity.

Again, my point is to only provide plausible scenarios. Not say any specific one is a definitive certainty.

hold on, what were we debating i forgot?

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Won't lie, I think Ultimate's DLC lost the plot a little when it came to "Kirbyism". One or two newcomers with high learning curves is fine, but the Fighters Passes had several.

Wonder if that's another reason why Byleth and Pyra/Mythra are so commonly played? Their movesets and fighting styles are easier to wrap one's head around. On top of half the community underestimating how popular first party characters can be, but that's a different topic.

I think this is one of the main reasons why I was hesitating to justify the "Kirbyism" topic. I can count the amount of gimmickless Ultimate DLC characters on one hand, and I consider that a bit of a betrayal of the concept. Unfortunately, it's not exactly the only thing about Ultimate that contradicts "Kirbyism".

By the way, that last statement you made is far too small a font for how important a point it is.

 

[Stratos]

I'm in a quandary, I can't decide if I'd like a The Super Mario Bros. Movie trilogy or Mario Cinematic Universe or Nintendo Cinematic Universe or Super Smash Bros. Cinematic Universe.

 

[dream1ng]

hold on, what were we debating i forgot?

Just saying it's possible Gen 10 doesn't work timing-wise to be in base for Smash 6.

Once these things start materializing publicly, we'll have a better idea of the timeframe.

I'm in a quandary, I can't decide if I'd like a The Super Mario Bros. Movie trilogy or Mario Cinematic Universe or Nintendo Cinematic Universe or Super Smash Bros. Cinematic Universe.

I'll take the option with the fewest movies by Illumination lol

Fwiw the first two are almost certainly going to happen. As are other Nintendo properties getting movies. Whether they become connected we'll have to see.

 

[fogbadge]

Just saying it's possible Gen 10 doesn't work timing-wise to be in base for Smash 6.

Once these things start materializing publicly, we'll have a better idea of the timeframe.

oh alright then, just ti be clear i'm not against gen 9 pokemon being in smash

I'll take the option with the fewest movies by Illumination lol

now that we can agree on without debating

 

[dream1ng]

oh alright then, just ti be clear i'm against gen 9 pokemon being in smash

In that you don't want it to happen, or you don't think it will happen?

I'm there on the former. I think the options that actually stand a chance are pretty meh. Though in theory they could also use general popularity now to influence who gets chosen, unlike with Greninja and Incineroar.

Unrealistically, if Gen 10 came out before Smash 6, but came out too late to affect base, they could just choose, y'know, an older Pokemon that people actually like and isn't a flavor of the week. Then add the promo Pokemon via DLC. Wouldn't that be nice, if idealistic.

 

[fogbadge]

In that you don't want it to happen, or you don't think it will happen?

I'm there on the former. I think the options that actually stand a chance are pretty meh. Though in theory they could also use general popularity now to influence who gets chosen, unlike with Greninja and Incineroar.

Unrealistically, if Gen 10 came out before Smash 6, but came out too late to affect base, they could just choose, y'know, an older Pokemon that people actually like and isn't a flavor of the week. Then add the promo Pokemon via DLC. Wouldn't that be nice, if idealistic.

sorry I meant not against

 

[Swamp Sensei]

We talk about cuts a lot of the time here, so I thought I'd finally throw my hat in the ring.

I think people think about cuts wrong. The developers usually don't think about cuts in binary terms. They usually try to get as many characters back as they can. It's much more common for characters to get out-prioritized and left on the cutting room floor due to time and resources. Some characters that got included were originally a lower priority like Brawl Lucario or Smash 4 Bowser Jr. We also know that Brawl had some characters like Roy, Dr. Mario and Mewtwo planned, but removed due to lack of time.

As such, I based my list over what I believe each character's internal priority is. I did separate first and third party characters. I believe they are considered by different metrics, and they're a lot harder to predict. Third parties are thus, not ordered by likeliness.

This isn't the first draft of this list either. I actually asked for some critique, so while the majority of the opinions are mine, I was persuaded to make some minor changes here and there. I will say, I value Smash mainstays a lot. I also believe that very few Smash 4 and Ultimate newcomers are 100% safe, even if I'd bet money on characters like Greninja, Little Mac, Ridley or K. Rool staying from here on out.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Spoiler: The list

https://i.imgur.com/LGBACQw.png

Some of the text got messed up, but I can't really fix it.

EDIT: Okay, I guess I'll have to link it instead of uploading it directly. Fine I guess.

 

[Sucumbio]

Not everything is awesome about Smash, and Smash can and should be open to criticism.

That said are there any cringe inclusions that are on par with ... Say...

"GRWOAAAAAARRRR!" (YES I COUnted the A's... l... I apologize if anyone likes this quote... Me I'm like......... Lol! Why this choice after all the great sound work? )

And now for a nice lullaby

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Not everything is awesome about Smash, and Smash can and should be open to criticism.

That said are there any cringe inclusions that are on par with ... Say...

"GRWOAAAAAARRRR!" (YES I COUnted the A's... l... I apologize if anyone likes this quote... Me I'm like......... Lol! Why this choice after all the great sound work? )

What on earth are you trying to say?

 

[Dukefire]

Opening next Smash Bros roster discussions is always a disaster waiting to happen. Though, how severe it is all depends on the storm it creates. For now, best to stay low until official information (not including leaks as it is not true most of the time).

 

[Idon]

Not everything is awesome about Smash, and Smash can and should be open to criticism.

That said are there any cringe inclusions that are on par with ... Say...

"GRWOAAAAAARRRR!" (YES I COUnted the A's... l... I apologize if anyone likes this quote... Me I'm like......... Lol! Why this choice after all the great sound work? )

And now for a nice lullaby

After googling the quote, I believe they are talking about a "quote" from Rhea from Fire Emblem 3 Houses and voicing their distaste for them as they are cringe.

I think.

 

[Perkilator]

Not everything is awesome about Smash, and Smash can and should be open to criticism.

This is literaly the only sentence in this entire post that I could comprehend.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We talk about cuts a lot of the time here, so I thought I'd finally throw my hat in the ring.

I think people think about cuts wrong. The developers usually don't think about cuts in binary terms. They usually try to get as many characters back as they can. It's much more common for characters to get out-prioritized and left on the cutting room floor due to time and resources. Some characters that got included were originally a lower priority like Brawl Lucario or Smash 4 Bowser Jr. We also know that Brawl had some characters like Roy, Dr. Mario and Mewtwo planned, but removed due to lack of time.

As such, I based my list over what I believe each character's internal priority is. I did separate first and third party characters. I believe they are considered by different metrics, and they're a lot harder to predict. Third parties are thus, not ordered by likeliness.

This isn't the first draft of this list either. I actually asked for some critique, so while the majority of the opinions are mine, I was persuaded to make some minor changes here and there. I will say, I value Smash mainstays a lot. I also believe that very few Smash 4 and Ultimate newcomers are 100% safe, even if I'd bet money on characters like Greninja, Little Mac, Ridley or K. Rool staying from here on out.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Spoiler: The list

https://i.imgur.com/LGBACQw.png

Some of the text got messed up, but I can't really fix it.

EDIT: Okay, I guess I'll have to link it instead of uploading it directly. Fine I guess.

I'm only curious as to why Dark Pit isn't with the other normal Echoes. 3rd party ones are more awkward, sure.

Rest make sense to me~