Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Kriven]

I know the roster is supposed to be smaller and this is a wishlist but...

Spoiler

A roster with Rabbid Peach but no Olimar, Ike, Lucario, Meta Knight Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Diddy Kong, Falco, Pit, Sheik, Little Mac, Villager or Shulk makes me feel ripped off. And this isn't even something I'm paying for.

And that's not even getting into the choice of newcomers or third parties.

1/10 As a wishlist, this doesn't appeal to me... at all. As a prediction, I find it ludicrous.

Not a wishlist. I went hard reboot and focused only on Switch-era characters + the original batch. I don't even know half the characters on it, only that they're the latest protagonists in their franchise installation or have recently crossed over with Nintendo properties.

My wishlist is basically just Ultimate + Krystal and Dixie at this point.

 

[HyperSomari64]

For me, if there was a way harder reboot, cutting Cptn. Falcon, Fox and Ness could be a good idea?

 

[Speed Weed]

View attachment 373231

Smash 6 roster leak!!!!!

My man added generic FDC protag man instead of the character people actually know and like

 

[Perkilator]

What does everyone think of this Chun-Li concept?

Decided to make a moveset based on this video, but with a few changes.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Not a wishlist. I went hard reboot and focused only on Switch-era characters + the original batch. I don't even know half the characters on it, only that they're the latest protagonists in their franchise installation or have recently crossed over with Nintendo properties.

My wishlist is basically just Ultimate + Krystal and Dixie at this point.

Even if you go for a nuclear reboot, this roster is kind of wack.

• Diddy getting the axe before K Rool is absurd.
• Three indie reps is just insane for a base game.
• Two ARMS reps when the series hasn’t done anything since 2017 is not happening.
• Rabbid Peach is not happening. Especially after sparks of hope under performed. Even if we did get a Ubisoft rep, I’d bet on just a regular Rabbid, Rayman, or Altair before her. And that is if we get a Ubisoft character.
• If we get a nuclear reboot Gen 8 is not getting a character.
• Even for a nuclear reboot, there’s a lot of sus cuts. Shulk, Villager, Olimar, Lucario or Mewtwo, and Pit all come to mind.
• The organization as well just feels like a mess. Bayonetta and Rabbid Peach away from other third parties. The roster just feels haphazardly positioned.
• The third party cuts with what returns doesn’t make sense. Microsoft keeps everything and is the only existing third party to get a character (if the act blizz deal happens). Sega stays but loses joker. All of Capcom, Bamco, Konami, Square, SNk, and Disney go. Even if the third party cuts are nuclear, I doubt we are losing Pac Man or Mega Man.
• Speaking of third parties, I will stress that four unique third party newcomers in the base game is a lot. Even moreso when you arbitrarily thanos snap the roster.
  
  

With all that in mind, you are free to make your own predictions. It’s just if this is meant to be a realistic roster prediction, I see a lot of holes in it.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Rabbid Peach is not happening. Especially after sparks of hope under performed. Even if we did get a Ubisoft rep, I’d bet on just a regular Rabbid, Rayman, or Altair before her. And that is if we get a Ubisoft character.

Say, have we established if Ubisoft has overcome their financial issues from earlier this year? I remember they seemed a bit desperate for the Ubisoft Forward/general E3 stuff at the time...

 

[Idon]

Hey Ganondorf was talked about. It's a really topical time to put out my Ganondorf (Tears of the Kingdom) moveset. Extreme spoilers so be warned.
Instead of a rough n tumble brawler, now he's more of a weapon-wielder befitting his depiction in Tears of the Kingdom.

Additionally, I went in with the mindset of this being a truly "new" character, one that was hypothetically introduced in today's era and without the obligatory holdovers of tradition, intentionally using as little from Ganondorf's old moveset as possible.

Ganondorf in this incarnation by far has the MOST to work with in terms of pure moveset potential so I really hope next Smash capitalizes on his renewed appearance instead of relying on the shoddy poorly considered moveset he's been stuck with and only receiving minor changes over the years.

AFTER A LONG SLUMBER, THE DEMON KING REAWAKENS...​

SPOILERS FOR THE LEGEND OF ZELDA: TEARS OF THE KINGDOM.

Spoiler: Overview

The Menace Unleashed:
Once again, the Demon King is reborn. Unlike his previous incarnation as a warlock with a penchant for brawling, this Ganondorf is a well-trained warrior through and through. He is a master of arms, using every ounce of his strength to wield powerful Gerudo weapons to cleave and crush any foes beneath him. Additionally the power of the secret stone has augmented his very being allowing him to channel his innate darkness and manifest it physically as a force that seeps into the earth and corrupts all those who touch it. Like his previous incarnation he maintains the bone-crushing power he once had, but this time his agility has gotten significantly better and his armaments allow him unprecedented range for a super-heavyweight. In terms of sheer power, he rules over all, for that is what a king must do.

Spoiler: Mechanic

Gloom:
Ganondorf's overflowing malevolence manifests physically as a black-red darkness that lies on top of surfaces, lasting for a short period of time before fading and inflicting continued damage to those that step over it. Furthermore, getting directly hit by any of Ganondorf's fearsome "gloom" attacks infects the enemy with a debuff that gives them slight damage over time. This effect is applied to all of Ganondorf's Specials and Smash attacks, meaning those attacks in particular are scary even beyond their already sizeable power.

Spoiler: Specials

Neutral Special: Gloom Cylone
-Ganondorf charges a spin attack similar to Link's except it's only one revolution. The spin itself at minimum charge is very quick and moderately powerful, acting as both a good "get-off-me" tool and as a combo finisher. It covers the area in gloom in a small area around him.

Side Special: Gloom Skewer
-Ganondorf transforms his sword into the spear and quickly charges dark energy into it before rapidly charging forward across the ground, stopping to do a lethal stab forward when an enemy is in front of him. Along the way, he leaves a trail of Gloom.

In the air, he only does the powerful stab, but that stab itself still gives him a lot of momentum for recovery. Alternatively that stab can function as a powerful albeit slow offstage stock ender.

Down Special: Gloom Eruption
-Ganondorf transforms his sword into the metal club and holds it reverse grip, charging dark energy around himself. He then stabs the club into the ground, causing a massive explosion and spreading gloom around a large area around himself. Depending on how long it's charged, the explosion and gloom spread will be bigger.
Additionally, if Ganondorf is hit with a melee attack, he will automatically armor through and activate the move, acting as a sort of counter-offensive attack.

In the attack is released in midair, Ganondorf will dive to the earth and stab it down there, detonating it all the same. While he has a stabbing hitbox as he falls, he loses his counter property. This will allow Ganondorf a way of reaching foes beneath himself while also providing another option to fall down and attempt to escape his disadvantage state.

Up Special: Gloom Vector
-Ganondorf does a powerful rising uppercut that he follows up with by summoning a bow and firing an arrow wreathed in dark energy diagonally downwards. It has a unique effect in that wherever the arrow lands, it will start generating a growing area of gloom that spreads out over a period of time before fading. Provides Ganondorf with a reliable out of shield option and also additional stage control.

Spoiler: Normals

Jab Starters: Elbow-Spinslash
-Ganondorf does a quick elbow strike with his free arm and follows up with an outward spin slash and leads to one of two different finishers. Fast and standard as far as jab starters go, though the slash has a lot of range for a jab, and knocks the enemy inwards for the follow-ups.

Jab Simple Finisher: Ore Smasher
-If Ganondorf does a simple finisher, he quickly transforms the sword into a club and swings outward, knocking them away and killing at high percent.

Jab Rapid Finisher: Flurry Rush
-If Ganondorf does his rapid finisher, he transforms the sword into a spear and does multiple stabs forward, ending with a wide cleave that knocks them away. Much weaker but does a lot of damage and has a large amount of range.

Forward Tilt: Gerudo Combination
-Ganondorf does a series of 3 diagonal cuts that lunge slightly forward. The slashes are on different inputs so the player can mix up the opponent on when he stops if it's blocked. Good reaching move and the final hit consistently kills at high percent.

Down Tilt: Flame Wreath
-Ganondorf wreaths his free hand with dark energy and chops at the opponenet's feet, his sleeve wreathed in gloom energy. Pops enemies up for aerial comboes and is a relatively quick, long-reaching, and safe poking tool.

Up Tilt: Beast Howl
-Ganondorf roars and lets loose a dark shockwave resonating around him, launching anyone away, serving to protect Ganondorf from both sides and within the air

Dash Attack: Cleave
-Ganondorf dashes forward and does a horizontal slash. Has a large amount of killing power and is decently fast, but only if it lands at the tipper sweet spot.

Spoiler: Smashes

Forward Smash: Gloom Sword
-Ganondorf wreaths his sword with energy and uses both hands to swing the gloom sword forward with all his might, increasing its normal length with a blade made of dark energy, viciously slicing enemies a fair distance away and killing very early. Mediocre speed but it's fast enough to catch people on unawares.

Down Smash: Gloom Club
-Ganondorf transforms his sword into the metal club and leaps into the air, slamming the club downwards and causing a massive shockwave. This evasive maneuver deals a large amount of shield damage and spikes enemies on the ledge on top of obviously being a great killing blow.

Up Smash: Gloom Spear
-Ganondorf transforms his sword into the spear and spins it repeatedly above his head, catching all foes above him before slashing forward and knocking everyone caught away forwards.

Spoiler: Aerials

Neutral Air: Whirlwind
-Ganondorf slashes the sword upwards in a wide arc in front of him. One of Ganondorf's most reliable moves, coming out fast, covering a wide arc in front of him and easily fitting in combos, lifting enemies further into the air in front.

Forward Air: Helm Splitter
-Ganondorf readies the sword above his head and violently slashes vertically in front of him. Very similar to his old forward air but with slightly more range on account of using a sword and is faster in general. Though it lacks as much power that the original had, the version is still extremely powerful and the versatility makes it more likely to actually be used and land.

Down Air: Wizard's Foot
-Ganondorf stomps diagonally down with one foot, spiking anyone caught underneath. It's a bit faster than his old spike, but has a narrower and more specific hitbox. Regardless it remains the same knockback power it used to, and also has increased shield damage to compensate.

Up Air: Reverse Thrust Kick
-Ganondorf does a midair splits kick aimed diagonally upwards. Has a similarly narrow hitbox but comes out relatively quickly and is very powerful. Useful for securing kills for the attacks that sent the enemy upwards.

Back Air: Reverse Punt
-Gaondorf does a backflip and then kicks behind him, spiking opponents caught in the sweetspot behind himself. Has a very strange hitbox that covers above and directly behind Ganondorf but comes out quickly and hits hard as well, making it a very reliable move to check opponents from doing aerial approaches.

Spoiler: Grabs/Throws

Grab: Flame Choke
-Ganondorf leans forward and grabs with their free hand infused with dark energy.

Pummel: Corrupt
-Ganondorf causes an explosion of dark energy to detonate, damaging the opponent.

Forward Throw: Piercing Kick
-Ganondorf lightly tosses the enemy into the air and follows up with a straight horizontal lunging kick to their midsection as they fall that knocks them at a sharp angle horizontally. It kills only at high percent, but at the ledge, it puts the enemy at an extremely disadvantageous position.

Down Throw: Volcano Kick
-Ganondorf throws the grabbed opponent onto the ground and does a crushing axe kick that explodes on impact with the ground and launches them upwards, being by far his strongest killing throw.

Up Throw: Flame Wave
-Ganondorf holds his foe high above and charges a powerful blast of dark energy that blasts them diagonally upwards with weak knockback, leading to more combos. Uniquely, this is the only move aside from his smashes and specials that applies gloom, making it very scary to either block or challenge Ganondorf.

Back Throw: Cast Off
-Ganondorf skewers the enemy with the gloom sword and then throws them off behind himself. Only average as a throw but at high percent and at ledge it could kill at high enough percent.

Spoiler: Final Smash

FINAL SMASH: The Demon King's Blood Moon
-Ganondorf gathers a huge amount of dark energy and activates his secret stone, causing a giant swirling pillar of darkness to sweep around him, drenching the sky in deep red under the light of the blood moon and transforming him into his Demon King form. Anyone caught by this is launched into a cinematic where Ganondorf leaps out of the pillar of darkness riding a demonic horse and wielding his spear, leaping out and slashing anyone caught with a giant slash of dark energy.

 

[MrMcNuts]

Since there's some Rayman fans here and he's one of the most requested western characters figured I'd share they showed off Rayman's model in the upcoming expansion

Idc bout the whole it's not a full game or etc I'm just happy my boy looks beautiful

 

[Sucumbio]

For me, if there was a way harder reboot, cutting Cptn. Falcon, Fox and Ness could be a good idea?

Nah they all stay unless the next game is a 3rd party game lol.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Since there's some Rayman fans here and he's one of the most requested western characters figured I'd share they showed off Rayman's model in the upcoming expansion
View attachment 373260
View attachment 373261
Idc bout the whole it's not a full game or etc I'm just happy my boy looks beautiful

That second pic is Ubisoft dragging him back to the vault once the DLC releases...

 

[dream1ng]

Not a wishlist. I went hard reboot and focused only on Switch-era characters + the original batch. I don't even know half the characters on it, only that they're the latest protagonists in their franchise installation or have recently crossed over with Nintendo properties.

My wishlist is basically just Ultimate + Krystal and Dixie at this point.

Well, you also went pretty scorched earth on the third-parties. Keeping Sonic, Bayo and Steve I get, but also... Banjo? Banjo is kept over Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu, Cloud, Sora, Snake etc? Don't get me wrong, he's one of my favorites, but... c'mon.

And then the ones you added... if you're gonna cut so many big names, I think you'd have to do a little better than what you replaced them with. Crash is fine, Shovel Knight and Frisk (though I think Sans is 'bigger') aren't bad picks or anything, but for them to stand in stead of what we already had, they're a little out of their depth. Cadence especially. Also the third-parties are entirely western-oriented, which isn't realistic.

Plus, some of the big names you cut were still present in the Switch-era, like Diddy, Villager, Shulk, and basically all the Pokemon. I mean, the Pokemon selection is depressing. Not even TPC is going to care about promoting Gen 8 in Smash 6, at least use that slot for a popular mon like Mewtwo or Charizard. Though it's Pokemon, it should have more than three spots. Especially with how many the Mario metaverse got.

And I know it's not that big a series, but ARMS having two characters while Kid Icarus has been removed entirely is a little whack. Hell, ARMS having two characters while AC only has one is whack.

I can tell you that if this was Smash 6's roster, people would be mad. Not even because it was a reboot, just based on the character selection. And I couldn't blame them, tbh. Even for a reboot, it cuts a lot of big names, retains a few strange choices, and replaces them mostly with recency picks.

For me, if there was a way harder reboot, cutting Cptn. Falcon, Fox and Ness could be a good idea?

In theory if you just wanted to focus on currently active series, this has logic to it. But I don't think anyone would prefer a roster that discards everything but the current stuff. Even in a reboot. Not even Nintendo goes that hard with recency.

And those three are series staples. I mean Fox is one of the original eight. I don't think there's any good reason to cut any of the original eight. I can see cutting Jiggs, but those three are the faces of their respective franchises, so you're also cutting Star Fox, F-Zero and Mother (assuming Lucas is gone too).

 

[DarthEnderX]

Ganondorf’s boss battle was only particularly intersting in OoT (I haven’t gotten that far in TotK yet) in regards to intersting moves to pull from. I think he just performed basic sword stikes in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker.

HW 'dorf is best 'dorf.

 

[Gengar84]

HW 'dorf is best 'dorf.

Yeah, I think HW did both Ganondorf and Sheik better than Smash. That game had so many fun characters that I can’t help but feel that Smash is a bit of missed potential, particularly with Ganondorf.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't even know half the characters on it, only that they're the latest protagonists in their franchise installation or have recently crossed over with Nintendo properties.

My guy, here using Spark Notes.

Not even Nintendo is that cooperate.

 

[Stratos]

Regarding the new Pokémon as a newcomer to the next Super Smash Bros. game, I'd say it will either be from Pokémon Scarlet and Violet or the next generation.

 

[fogbadge]

Regarding the new Pokémon as a newcomer to the next Super Smash Bros. game, I'd say it will either be from Pokémon Scarlet and Violet or the next generation.

gen 10 will be out before then

 

[PeridotGX]

Regarding the new Pokémon as a newcomer to the next Super Smash Bros. game, I'd say it will either be from Pokémon Scarlet and Violet or the next generation.

Why are you phrasing this like it's even slightly controversial.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If they change his recovery I think he becomes way more viable. Replace it with a canonical move and he pleases purists and competitive players. What that move is, I don't know.

The only one he outright has is a Teleport, though that's a Ganon thing, not a Dorf thing. Dorf really hasn't borrowed from his dark form, like... ever(in Smash, I mean). So it's fairly unlikely.

That said, some kind of thing more akin to a flying hand strike still works well(which is actually fairly similar to something Phantom Ganon does, who is an actual created clone of sorts). So a lunge not too much unlike how Fire Fox would be, or Fire Wolf more in particular.

 

[dream1ng]

gen 10 will be out before then

Probably yes. But it depends when Smash 6 started/starts development. It seems the window to include an unreleased character is about a year, and if Gen 10 came out in 2025, Smash 6's roster would have to be compiled no earlier than next year.

But if we get the next system no later than next year, and the precedent of Smash showing up within the first year and a half holds, with a three-ish year dev cycle, the roster may already be decided.

Like, if the project plan was made this year, and the game released in 2026, even though Gen 10 came out the year before (2025), that's two years after the project plan, which may be too late to work into base. And if they instead opted for a different newcomer, that could also hinder the chance of a Gen 10 showing up as DLC.

Of course, they could break precedent in any number of ways, all of this is merely hypothetical. But there do seem potential outcomes wherein we wouldn't get a Gen 10 character in 6. At least in base.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I’m thinking the next Smash will be released Early 2027 at the earliest so Gen 10 will probably be prioritized by default. Unless Rika goes on to take Ash’s Role entirely outside of just being Main Characters, in which I think Weed Cat and Meowscarda could get priority.

 

[fogbadge]

Probably yes. But it depends when Smash 6 started/starts development. It seems the window to include an unreleased character is about a year, and if Gen 10 came out in 2025, Smash 6's roster would have to be compiled no earlier than next year.

But if we get the next system no later than next year, and the precedent of Smash showing up within the first year and a half holds, with a three-ish year dev cycle, the roster may already be decided.

Like, if the project plan was made this year, and the game released in 2026, even though Gen 10 came out the year before (2025), that's two years after the project plan, which may be too late to work into base. And if they instead opted for a different newcomer, that could also hinder the chance of a Gen 10 showing up as DLC.

Of course, they could break precedent in any number of ways, all of this is merely hypothetical. But there do seem potential outcomes wherein we wouldn't get a Gen 10 character in 6. At least in base.

well going by what’s happened before, while the roster is indeed settled on quite early the Pokemon newcomer is usually just a place holder. we also know that sakurai is allowed behind the scenes at game freak as he said so when talking about greninjas inclusion. and the time between XY coming out and smash 4 was less than a year apart. so a gen 10 Pokémon is still feasible in your hypothetical scenario

 

[Perkilator]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I don’t necessarily see this as likely, but it’d be cool nonetheless.

 

[dream1ng]

I’m thinking the next Smash will be released Early 2027 at the earliest so Gen 10 will probably be prioritized by default. Unless Rika goes on to take Ash’s Role entirely outside of just being Main Characters, in which I think Weed Cat and Meowscarda could get priority.

Not sure if we're gonna go nine years or more between Smash releases

Also if choosing a character based on the anime results in choosing a character that doesn't promote the newest gen (at that time), I don't think it's gonna happen. Because it's not about reflecting the anime, it's about pushing the newest games.

well going by what’s happened before, while the roster is indeed settled on quite early the Pokemon newcomer is usually just a place holder. we also know that sakurai is allowed behind the scenes at game freak as he said so when talking about greninjas inclusion. and the time between XY coming out and smash 4 was less than a year apart. so a gen 10 Pokémon is still feasible in your hypothetical scenario

Not under my hypothetical scenario, no. It's not about the distance between the character's debut and Smash's release, it's about the distance between roster being assembled and the character's debut. Smash 4's roster was assembled in 2012, they left a spot that would eventually go to Greninja, whose game released in 2013. Then Smash released in 2014. Same thing with Incineroar, who debuted a year after Ultimate's project plan.

That was a one year window between roster creation and the character's release. My hypothetical has a two year window: the roster selection this year, and Gen 10 releasing in 2025. I don't know if allocating a placeholder for a character that far away is realistic, it hasn't happened before.

They weren't able to do it with Xenoblade 2, which released two years after Ultimate's roster was compiled. It was timed out. Even though it released a year before Ultimate.

And that's under the scenario of this being the year the roster was assembled. It could've been last year, isn't that when Sakurai said he was working on his new project? So, like I said, the roster would have to be compiled no earlier than 2024 to not be unprecedented in this regard.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Something to keep in mind is Ganondorf does not have a lot of kill moves despite hitting hard; his only reliable ones are his Up Smash(barely), Forward Smash, Warlock Punch, and Reverse Warlock Punch. Volcano Kick is godawful and would go anyway, but you're cutting his only usable ones(and at most, only one would be good by that point) in half or less. Why would you take away his other kill options(namely the usable ones)? Especially when one has Super Armor or is a fast enough version to work. Warlock Punch, regardless, is not only a move that fits his canon self(he has done a charged energy punch in canon, so it cannot be legitimately claimed it's got no basis in canon whatsoever), but it makes him unable to kill even more. There's zero good reason at this point to remove it, because you aren't improving him by adding a slow as hell chargeable projectile(the only kind that could ever fit his playstyle), which only makes him an easier target to hit. And it won't get Super Armor either, because that's an extremely poor way to balance a powerful projectile. The point behind strong ones is that they're hard to hit with but deal massive damage and force, especially in these kind of games. And if it's charge-based, it means you have to leave yourself wide open to get its full effect. Being able to roll to temporarily keep the current charge is fine, but that's how they're balanced out. No matter how powerful it could be(even to the point of not reflectable), it will have a downside like that. Otherwise, it won't exist. There is no "other way" to balance it.

I mean, if they reboot Ganondorf moveset and remove his killing moves, the solution is to simply... add others killing moves? This is such a non-issue, you're acting like if they remove moves they won't get replaced by other moves. Besides, Ganondorf is so low on the tier list that, if anything, any argument about balancing actually help his case for a moveset changes more than hurt his case.

For me, if there was a way harder reboot, cutting Cptn. Falcon, Fox and Ness could be a good idea?

(not sure if you're asking a question or stating your opinion because it's written as an opinion but with a question mark, I'm going to act like it was a question).

Well personally I don't think they're going to remove any of those 3 characters. Falcon is just way too iconic, at this point he's arguably one of Smash mascot alongside Mario and Kirby. Fox I think he's going to stay as a legacy pick, Star fox was heavily popular back in the 64 and Gamecube era I don't see them removing him (Falco and Wolf are more debatable). As of Ness I would say he's the most likely to get cut because Earthbound is one of the least popular Nintendo franchise with playable representation in Smash, but I feel like he have to stay because it's important to have a balance between new and classic characters. I also think that aside from third party and a few other exception, it's a bad idea to remove completely a franchise represented in Smash, and I'm assuming that they would rather cut Lucas than Ness.

I could see those 3 franchises having way less content in the next Smash (especially Earthbound, it feels like a miracle that this franchise had 4 stages in Ultimate), but I don't think they're going to remove them completely.

 

[Kriven]

For me, if there was a way harder reboot, cutting Cptn. Falcon, Fox and Ness could be a good idea?

I went back and forth on them a lot but decided that they were kind of "Smash Bros Characters" at this point.

 

[Kriven]

 

[HyperSomari64]

I went back and forth on them a lot but decided that they were kind of "Smash Bros Characters" at this point.

Same can apply for Samus, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Roy.

 

[MrMcNuts]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I don’t necessarily see this as likely, but it’d be cool nonetheless.

Really like their fighter choice too for some reason, can't put my finger on it though

 

[chocolatejr9]

Really like their fighter choice too for some reason, can't put my finger on it though

If you want, I can lend a "hand"...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, if they reboot Ganondorf moveset and remove his killing moves, the solution is to simply... add others killing moves? This is such a non-issue, you're acting like if they remove moves they won't get replaced by other moves. Besides, Ganondorf is so low on the tier list that, if anything, any argument about balancing actually help his case for a moveset changes more than hurt his case.

Incorrect. Though I get how the context was missed. I wasn't quoting everything.

I spoke of specifically removing Warlock Punch for a terrible projectile that makes his character significantly worse. There is no good reason to switch the moves. Warlock Punch is blatantly a canon move at this point(with very minor tweaks too from his Earthquake Punch. It was one of his few moves which were already canon as of OOT or its artwork. His particular air animation for Wizard's Foot is from OOT, and his Forward Air is from the artwork. He adhered to canon as a clone to a minor degree from the start). His two projectile moves are also canon, but do not help further his game. They do nothing to further his approaching or range problem, because they strictly only work as "slowly creating projectiles". That's literally how they work, and are the only two moves he knows that actually fit a slower character who is about immense power. He's a tanky character by design too, so that's how they balance out the projectiles. I covered it quite well why the moves are actually awful for Ganondorf.

I was never replying to a strict revamp in that context, which actually can make the projectiles cool. But I don't really believe for one second a revamp is even in the realm of possibility, so I don't really argue against the changes there, since it serves no purpose. I'm not responding to what you think I am.

I stand that Warlock Punch is perfect for the version of Ganondorf we have. The projectiles are a potential interesting secondary kill option, as long as it doesn't remove his already good ones(only Volcano Kick is legitimately bad, honestly). That, and you missed the context of what made the kill options viable, how easy they are to hit with(which is pretty few of them). Which I made clear is what I meant earlier, even editing it in due to it being misunderstood on what I was referring to when I talked about kill options.

Overall, you're responding to something I was not arguing against. Honest mistake due to weird context, though.

 

[MrMcNuts]

If you want, I can lend a "hand"...

Might go out on a limb here and take a wild guess

 

[toonito]

Re: My thoughts on Pokemon Gen 9 or 10 in Smash

I agree with your main point.

my rambling speculation on Pokemon and Smash below:

Smash has more leeway in terms of release windows ranging between 2 (64-Melee) and 7 years (Melee-Brawl) while Pokemon has become fairly consistent with release windows. Smash has stuck to the 1 game per console so its likely it'll stay the same for Smash 6.

N64: 1996
SSB: 1999
GC: 2001
SSBM: 2001
Wii: 2006
SSBB: 2008
Wii-U: 2012
SSB4: 2014
Switch: 2017
SSBU: 2018

With the exception of Melee, Smash games tend to come out at least a year after a new console is released. Since the N64 consoles tend to come out every 5-6 years so if this holds a new console should be out by next year (this year was the earliest a new console could've debuted) and Smash 6 would be out by 2024 at the earliest.

For Pokemon, since Gen 5 a mainline new gen Pokemon game has released every 3 years. However, their anniversaries were in 2006 and 2016. Both of those years had mainline games released as well. If Pokemon sticks to the 3 year schedule then the next gen should be in 2025. If Pokemon is to align Gen 10 with the 30th anniversary then it will release in 2026. one of these "guidelines" is bound to break.

So if Smash 6 can't come out no earlier than 2024 and Gen 10 can't come out no earlier than 2025-2026 then if Smash 6 = 2024, Gen 9 gets the Smash slot. any later then Gen 10 is likely to get the slot.

If it's Gen 9, which Pokemon might make it in Smash 6?
Based on the current Pokemon roster in Smash:

6 have been starters
1 baby
1 legendary
2 which aren't a starter, baby, or legendary.

since Brawl a starter pokemon has made it in Smash. Brawl was also the last time multiple Pokemon made a Smash game. Also Ivysaur is the only non-bipedal pokemon on the roster.

it seems likely that a bipedal starter would be the most likely pick so Meowscarada or Quaquaval could be added.

 

[Stratos]

I read somewhere that after the success of The Super Mario Bros. Movie, they want to make a The Legend of Zelda movie as well and if they do I'm sure that will be a success too.

 

[Idon]

His two projectile moves are also canon, but do not help further his game. They do nothing to further his approaching or range problem, because they strictly only work as "slowly creating projectiles". That's literally how they work, and are the only two moves he knows that actually fit a slower character who is about immense power. He's a tanky character by design too, so that's how they balance out the projectiles. I covered it quite well why the moves are actually awful for Ganondorf.

Okay, rest of the argument aside this isn't true at all. Slow projectiles are actually one of the best tools for both anti-zoning and approaching in fighting games, including smash, especially if they're large and strong. Throwing out a projectile and running behind it is a very common way to "get in" with the projectile adding as both a shield against other attacks and forcing a reaction from the opponent to either block or evade. Additionally, it prevents other zoning characters from being able to launch their own projectiles until they deal with the incoming projectile.

Off the top of my head and just in Smash alone, characters that benefit from slow projectiles are like Robin's Arcthunder, Duck Hunt's Frisbee, especially Mario and Pikachu's diagonally down traveling projectiles, heck, there's even a very slow character that greatly improved with the addition of a projectile and has remained a core part of his cut:

One of his best and most used moves even despite its numerous intended drawbacks like ricochet.

Regardless, I do feel it kind of strange you're taking a character viability and moveset stance on this while simultaneously arguing for Warlock Punch, one of the worst moves in the entire game and completely useless in purpose and also keeping him the same when Ganondorf is the de facto worst character in Smash 3 games in a row.

 

[Kriven]

Samus, Sheik, Ice Climbers, Roy.

Ice Climbers almost stayed for this reason. It came down to Roy or Marth and I went Marth. Samus... wasn't cut from my roster. I strongly disagree regarding Sheik.

I would argue Mr. Game & Watch and ROB also are kind of "Smash Bros. Characters," but I don't feel like they or the other "Smash Bros. Characters" removed are quite up there in terms of Star Power. They lack the celebrity status afforded to Fox/Falc/Ness.

Ultimately the prompt was to do a hard cut of the roster and totally rebuild it primarily with Switch-relevant characters and a more "reasonably" sized roster. It's more of a follow-up to Brawl than Wii U or Ultimate, with approximately the same number of newcomers as 64 --> Melee and Melee --> Brawl.

I like to make rosters with prompts. If you want to give me a prompt and see what I come up with, I'll be happy to do so.

Addressing some other generalized comments:

Sora, Cloud, Sephiroth, Hero - Gone because Disney/Squenix are unreliable. I honestly think these are the characters Sakurai specifically has in mind when he says "we will never have everybody is here ever again."

Banjo, K.Rool, and Ridley aren't cut because we Boomers would revolt after twenty years trying to get them in. Mega Man / Pac-Man / Diddy have had 4-3 games to enjoy the limelight. Now they have to restart their cycle of relevancy. (Also, ya'll almost got Ghostly Adventures Pac-Man).

Other third-parties are largely gone to focus the core identity of Super Smash Bros. back on Nintendo properties.

Indie characters: Nintendo published Shovel Knight in Japan, Link has literally met Cadence, and Toby Fox actually went to Sakurai's house.

Indie characters are the third-party all-stars of the 2010s, the generation being represented in the roster. All of the other franchises have fallen off hard.

Rabbid Peach is with the Mario characters, and she would have a Mushroom icon.

Spring-Man and Taro are in because I have a pretty hard "Protagonist / Mascot" bias. It feels weird to have supporting / side characters without their leads.

Shulk died to pay for the swordies sins.

If I were to do one that was prompted more as "Ultimate Continues," I probably would have included mainly third-party characters who weren't in yet, because Ultimate is more about all of gaming and not Nintendo. Lara Croft, Tails, Frogger, Master Chief... something like that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Blanking. I see zero purpose in continuing this. I've said my piece multiple times.

 

[Schnee117]

Here's the thing; that's not how the Energy Ball and Dead Man's Volley are designed. They're Charge Shot clones, that he specifically creates above his head, giving him a very tiny wall to work with. He is not Aganahim, who does a completely different animation either. And even then, Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere are still mild inconveniences to "use as a wall", nothing good like King Dedede's Gordo. You still have to charge them fairly slowly to get said wall.

Meanwhile Warlock Punch, is, get this, almost identical to the original Earthquake Punch in every way but the exact element used and what it attacks. To make Energy Ball and Dead Man's Volley be even close to canon, they have to follow their own rules to avoid cannibalizing the moves. It will always appears above his head, and even with Super Armor(which notably is why Warlock Punch stopped being bad and moved to mediocre territory), they still follow clear rules in what makes them actually worth noting.

If Warlock Punch is fine with a different target (not the ground) and element then Dead Man's Volley and Energy Ball are perfectly fine being launched from in front of Ganondorf rather than over his head. Canon adherence is nice but it can't get in the way of making a moveset work and Ganondorf choosing to launch a projectile from in front of him rather than over his head is at the bottom of the barrel in terms of things that absolutely must adhere to canon.

Even Miguel O'Hara would let this slide. It's a stupidly pedantic point that no one but you cares about.

 

[PeridotGX]

I wonder if Sakurai ever regrets adding Ganondorf in Melee. One small decision two decades ago spiraled into an incredibly weird situation with no clear solution, and it could have all been averted by adding Paula as a Ness clone or something.

 

[Louisacommie]

the first unique zelda newcomer since 2001

though would much be different if versions of Darunia and Ruto and Nabooru appeared in each 3d game even if in minor roles, like unless we fanfic an entire Goron, zora, and Gerudo, relevant section into wind waker, the wind waker version of Darunia would just have to be a trader, Ruto could be a ghost sage that teaches Medli, same with Saria not that the kokiri are relevant to this hypothetical, some Gerudo could be added to wind waker as cameos like the gorons, not with there own island or plotline or dungeon or anything.

then Twilight princess the Zora queen whose son you protect is Ruto I guess, And Darunia is an important goron, and the Gerudo are added though scattered without there own town as cameos, maybe the TP version of Nabooru complains about arbiters ground monsters ruining their homes,


the first Darunia could be in skyward sword otherwise it be really high level fanficy to write in anyother race

then the champions are renamed to be Darunia, Ruto, and Nabooru, and Revalli is now a woman named Medli. and to keep the relance of the characters as high as possible they are not dead and just sealed in the divine beast, and then replace there replacements in totk serving the same gameplay purpose.

I guess other consistent reborn reps is anytime impa is an old lady besides skyward sword she always has a granddaughter named Paya,

if the Twilli ever come back a woman named after Midna is the most important of them

the Deku princess in Majoras Mask gets a name and that name is reused for a Deku champion if they are ever relevant again

idk if anything like that would get us more zelda characters or if they would be like pig ganon and impa and Kotake and Koume and tingle and beetle and Dampe the gravedigger or Epona in characters that are reused through multiple eras of zelda and it not having relevance to smash

 

[Idon]

the first unique zelda newcomer since 2001

though would much be different if versions of Darunia and Ruto and Nabooru appeared in each 3d game even if in minor roles, like unless we fanfic an entire Goron, zora, and Gerudo, relevant section into wind waker, the wind waker version of Darunia would just have to be a trader, Ruto could be a ghost sage that teaches Medli, same with Saria not that the kokiri are relevant to this hypothetical, some Gerudo could be added to wind waker as cameos like the gorons, not with there own island or plotline or dungeon or anything.

then Twilight princess the Zora queen whose son you protect is Ruto I guess, And Darunia is an important goron, and the Gerudo are added though scattered without there own town as cameos, maybe the TP version of Nabooru complains about arbiters ground monsters ruining their homes,


the first Darunia could be in skyward sword otherwise it be really high level fanficy to write in anyother race

then the champions are renamed to be Darunia, Ruto, and Nabooru, and Revalli is now a woman named Medli. and to keep the relance of the characters as high as possible they are not dead and just sealed in the divine beast, and then replace there replacements in totk serving the same gameplay purpose.

I guess other consistent reborn reps is anytime impa is an old lady besides skyward sword she always has a granddaughter named Paya,

if the Twilli ever come back a woman named after Midna is the most important of them

the Deku princess in Majoras Mask gets a name and that name is reused for a Deku champion if they are ever relevant again

idk if anything like that would get us more zelda characters or if they would be like pig ganon and impa and Kotake and Koume and tingle and beetle and Dampe the gravedigger or Epona in characters that are reused through multiple eras of zelda and it not having relevance to smash

Forgive me for not understanding but this sounds less like smash and some sorta concept for a different new Zelda game?