Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[LiveStudioAudience]

WB Games shutting down all those studios is pretty tough.

It's remarkable to think about 40 years ago when one of the big problems was Warner Communications not stepping in sooner to correct Atari's logistical mistakes in the market and now in the 2020s Warner Bros are more deeply involved... and managed to make things worse for the game studios underneath them. If you get the point where you're the negative comparison to the Warner that helped bring about the North American Console Game crash, then you have fundamentally screwed up as an entertainment giant.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Afaik, there were techincal difficulties with the tag-team aspect and so Diddy Kong became solo. Now, I didn't mention Diddy Kong and Dixie Kong because Brawl was on the f***ing Wii, whereas Rex/Pyra/Mythra is a more recent example. But again, maybe the Switch 2 will allow such an aspect to take place? Who knows though honestly we have to remember that Sakurai himself said that the Ice Climbers, simple as they were, were pushing the boundaries of the Switch as is.

Yeah, but I was talking about Diddy and Dixie using the transformation mechanic like in DKL2 instead of the tag team since a person you quoted seemingly suggested that. I knew the tag team for Diddy and Dixie was an obstacle in Brawl that lead to just Diddy. I was just sharing my thoughts.

 

[Watuna4343]

Yeah, but I was talking about Diddy and Dixie using the transformation mechanic like in DKL2 instead of the tag team since a person you quoted seemingly suggested that. I knew the tag team for Diddy and Dixie was an obstacle in Brawl that lead to just Diddy. I was just sharing my thoughts.

Tbh, I haven't played DKL2, so idk about that but that just shows me that if Sakurai wasn't willing to go there with Diddy Kong/Dixie Kong there's even less reason to make Pearl/Marina transform

 

[dream1ng]

WB Games shutting down all those studios is pretty tough. Thankfully, as a repercussion we’re seeing NRS collab with more crossovers.

Yes I’m very much breathing in copium, you don’t need to ask.

WB: Help me Nintendo, please can you put Scorpion in Smash

Nintendo:

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Mmm, I can see Sakurai not wanting to go that route. Because at their core, transformation characters make sense as transformation characters because they are the same person/alter egos. Pearl and Marina aren't, they are 2 different characters, I can see Sakurai considering it out of character for them to swap out.

I mean are we including Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard in "same person/alter egos" because of Trainer, even though the Pokemon are the ones fighting? Like I get what you mean, I just don't see why Pearl and Marina couldn't just like swap between each other with Super Jumps or something, like how you can jump to a teammate or back to base in multiplayer.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

I mean are we including Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard in "same person/alter egos" because of Trainer, even though the Pokemon are the ones fighting? Like I get what you mean, I just don't see why Pearl and Marina couldn't just like swap between each with Super Jumps or something, like how you can jump to a teammate or back to base in multiplayer.

Maybe like Pokemon Trainer, one can watch the fight from the background except they switch with the other to take part in the fight when it is time to switch?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

WB: "Nintendo, please! Our platform fighter was closed down before we can put Mortal Kombat content in it! We need you to add Scorpion to Smash!"

Nintendo:

 

[Thegameandwatch]

To me, the negotiations thing does not seem that hard to do. I mean, it still has difficulty, but Geno got in as a Mii costume twice and as a Spirit, so that is a (small) start.

Plus, many thought a Square Enix character was impossible, yet we had Cloud in Smash 4 and Hero and Sephiroth the following game. Some characters from Square Enix could still get in before Geno, but who knows? Maybe he could become playable as a surprise.

Square Enix alongside Microsoft are also the only 3rd party companies that has more then one DLC. Square has more if Sora counts because of their involvement of his series despite Disney being the IP holder.

One unrelated fact is that Atlus (Joker) and Mojang (Steve) are listed separately from their main companies in Smash’s title credits while Rare (Banjo) isn’t listed at all.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Square Enix alongside Microsoft are also the only 3rd party companies that has more then one DLC. Square has more if Sora counts because of their involvement of his series despite Disney being the IP holder.

One unrelated fact is that Atlus (Joker) and Mojang (Steve) are listed separately from their main companies in Smash’s title credits while Rare (Banjo) isn’t listed at all.

Doesn’t Square Enix partially own Sora?

Anyways, yeah, I see your point. If Square Enix get more characters, I am not sure if Geno will be next, but if he got in, to me, that would be icing on the cake!

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Doesn’t Square Enix partially own Sora?

IIRC, Disney fully owns him but they generally trust no one other than Nomura and by extension Square Enix when it comes to him so they still have some power even though they have no ownership.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

WB: But we have you now, we can crossover our series like you and Street Fighter. We have each other.

Nintendo: Oh WB... you're no Capcom.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

IIRC, Disney fully owns him but they generally trust no one other than Nomura and by extension Square Enix when it comes to him so they still have some power even though they have no ownership.

Yeah I'm pretty sure Disney owns Sora and Kingdom Hearts as an IP, Square just makes all of the games and own any Final Fantasy characters included, but Nomura has a say because he's the one in charge of the whole operation lol

 

[Louie G.]

Personally I don't see them implementing a "transformation" gimmick for the idols as much as I do a stance change mechanic to change the leader with both being accounted for. I think having both idols on-stage is essential for the character, both in making them stand out from Pyra / Mythra or Pokemon Trainer and helping to convey the collaborative aspect of being in an idol group. Doing simultaneous choreography, coming in for assists etc feels like the exact hook that would justify their addition at all.

If this can't be accomplished, I'd sooner expect them to just add the two idols independently from one another like what some speculate with Noah and Mio. Cramming these two characters into one slot only to never be fighting alongside one another feels archaic at worst (I think we're better off without Zelda / Sheik) and derivative at best, and IMO doesn't do service to the characters. Maybe I'm overlooking a potential angle they could take with this but my sentiment is that they lose a big part of the "WHY" if they aren't implemented in this presumed Diddy / Dixie or Rex / Pyra way. Because a troupe of musicians are an inherently collaborative partnership, while Pyra / Mythra, Pokemon Trainer and Zelda / Sheik will only be going at it one at a time.

 

[Watuna4343]

I mean are we including Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard in "same person/alter egos" because of Trainer, even though the Pokemon are the ones fighting? Like I get what you mean, I just don't see why Pearl and Marina couldn't just like swap between each other with Super Jumps or something, like how you can jump to a teammate or back to base in multiplayer.

Pokémon Trainer is the fighter. Not the 3 individual Pokémon under though. Yes they are the ones doing the fighting and have their own numbers but in the end, it's Pokémon Trainer using 3 Pokémon to fight, so it's very much 1 person still.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Disney owns Sora and Kingdom Hearts as an IP, Square just makes all of the games and own any Final Fantasy characters included, but Nomura has a say because he's the one in charge of the whole operation lol

Odd, I remember someone on this topic saying Sora was partially owned by Square Enix. Maybe they were wrong?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Personally I don't see them implementing a "transformation" gimmick for the idols as much as I do a stance change mechanic to change the leader with both being accounted for. I think having both idols on-stage is essential for the character, both in making them stand out from Pyra / Mythra or Pokemon Trainer and helping to convey the collaborative aspect of being in an idol group. Doing simultaneous choreography, coming in for assists etc feels like the exact hook that would justify their addition at all.

So essentially, you're looking for Angry Beavers from NASB2?

 

[Louie G.]

So essentiall, you're looking for Angry Beavers from NASB2?

A little bit, yeah. Like I really do like the way that character is executed, although I think Smash will be more keen to have Callie / Marie or Pearl / Marina tag along with one another and be more 'active' than simply spawning in for an assist. I imagine these kind of assists for the idols being more like, the two are both contributing in a Smash attack or spin around with hands linked for an aerial. Or a tilt has them both perform the same dance pose in unison. Spiritually I think you can compare to the Angry Beavers concept but in execution it has more Ice Climbers DNA.

But I do think it's a good frame of reference for an alternative way to handle this kind of team character, and I will admit they were part of what got me excited about the idea in the first place. Definitely was one of the most intriguing ideas that NASB put on the table.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Doesn’t Square Enix partially own Sora?

Anyways, yeah, I see your point. If Square Enix get more characters, I am not sure if Geno will be next, but if he got in, to me, that would be icing on the cake!

The copyright screen before the title screen in the KH games generally only lists Disney. The only mention of Square Enix is when the Final Fantasy copyright is listed.

Square Enix and by extension Nomura are in charge of the franchise despite not owning the IP which explains the confusion.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The copyright screen before the title screen in the KH games generally only lists Disney. The only mention of Square Enix is when the Final Fantasy copyright is listed.

Square Enix and by extension Nomura are in charge of the franchises despite not owning the IP which explains the confusion.

Even in a Smash context, Disney is the only copyright listed on Sora's Challenger Pack. Nothing about Square-Enix like Sephiroth, the FFVII costumes, the Geno outfit, Hero (along with Armor Project, Bird Studio, and Sugiyama Kobo), or the Dragon Quest costumes (also along Armor Project and Bird Studio; Sugiyama Kobo is only listed for Hero, probably in relation to the music he comes with).

Funny enough, the copyrights specify Final Fantasy VII and Super Mario RPG while not any specific Dragon Quest title.

 

[BrawlX10]

A little bit, yeah. Like I really do like the way that character is executed, although I think Smash will be more keen to have Callie / Marie or Pearl / Marina tag along with one another and be more 'active' than simply spawning in for an assist. I imagine these kind of assists for the idols being more like, the two are both contributing in a Smash attack or spin around with hands linked for an aerial. Or a tilt has them both perform the same dance pose in unison. Spiritually I think you can compare to the Angry Beavers concept but in execution it has more Ice Climbers DNA.

But I do think it's a good frame of reference for an alternative way to handle this kind of team character, and I will admit they were part of what got me excited about the idea in the first place. Definitely was one of the most intriguing ideas that NASB put on the table.

So like the PPG in Multiversus? They fight in unison.

 

[Guynamednelson]

So like the PPG in Multiversus? They fight in unison.

No, what the Beavers are like is that they're a transformation character whose specials are performed by the inactive beaver.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So what do you think of Luigi's Mansion content in Smash?

So far we only have one stage since Brawl. We have three remixes from the franchise (mostly all from the first game) and one track directly from Dark Moon. We have a number of spirits.

With the success of Luigi's Mansion 3, and the 3DS and Switch ports of the first two games, what do you think will happen?

 

[BrawlX10]

So what do you think of Luigi's Mansion content in Smash?

So far we only have one stage since Brawl. We have three remixes from the franchise (mostly all from the first game) and one track directly from Dark Moon. We have a number of spirits.

With the success of Luigi's Mansion 3, and the 3DS and Switch ports of the first two games, what do you think will happen?

I think we'll get a LM3 stage, i think the main setting was called Lost Resort. Maybe King Boo as an Assist Trophy, he would be unique. I guess Gooigi as a clone of luigi is possible as well.

No, what the Beavers are like is that they're a transformation character whose specials are performed by the inactive beaver.

I was refering that Off the Hook could be similar to the PPG as in fighting in unison gimmick. Wasn't specifically talking about the Beavers. I've played NASB2 i know how they play. (I guess i worded my last comment in a confusing maner)

 

[Thegameandwatch]

So what do you think of Luigi's Mansion content in Smash?

So far we only have one stage since Brawl. We have three remixes from the franchise (mostly all from the first game) and one track directly from Dark Moon. We have a number of spirits.

With the success of Luigi's Mansion 3, and the 3DS and Switch ports of the first two games, what do you think will happen?

They should definitely added a new stage and especially since new stages could be emphasised more in Smash 6.

At least Luigi’s current grab is from the 3rd game as a teaser before the game’s release.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

So what do you think of Luigi's Mansion content in Smash?

So far we only have one stage since Brawl. We have three remixes from the franchise (mostly all from the first game) and one track directly from Dark Moon. We have a number of spirits.

With the success of Luigi's Mansion 3, and the 3DS and Switch ports of the first two games, what do you think will happen?

I definitely think it should get some stuff from 3, and I think Gooigi would be a fun option for an alt (just like a single one though, not like half of Luigi's colors like Alph does) as long as it doesn't end up like Crafted Yoshi, but I doubt it would lol

 

[Laniv]

So what do you think of Luigi's Mansion content in Smash?

So far we only have one stage since Brawl. We have three remixes from the franchise (mostly all from the first game) and one track directly from Dark Moon. We have a number of spirits.

With the success of Luigi's Mansion 3, and the 3DS and Switch ports of the first two games, what do you think will happen?

Possibly a ScareScraper stage? Players fight while avoiding LM ghosts, and whoever defeats one gets a prize (maybe a stat boost?)

Of course all of this will come with King Boo as a fighter babyyyyy

 

[dream1ng]

So what do you think of Luigi's Mansion content in Smash?

So far we only have one stage since Brawl. We have three remixes from the franchise (mostly all from the first game) and one track directly from Dark Moon. We have a number of spirits.

With the success of Luigi's Mansion 3, and the 3DS and Switch ports of the first two games, what do you think will happen?

The stage will return, and a bit of new music

It's hard out here for a spin-off.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Even in a Smash context, Disney is the only copyright listed on Sora's Challenger Pack. Nothing about Square-Enix like Sephiroth, the FFVII costumes, the Geno outfit, Hero (along with Armor Project, Bird Studio, and Sugiyama Kobo), or the Dragon Quest costumes (also along Armor Project and Bird Studio; Sugiyama Kobo is only listed for Hero, probably in relation to the music he comes with).

Funny enough, the copyrights specify Final Fantasy VII and Super Mario RPG while not any specific Dragon Quest title.

Well that's because Dragon quest is unique compared to FF7 and KH1 where it's representation in smash covers multiple games instead of the one they went with.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Well that's because Dragon quest is unique compared to FF7 and KH1 where it's representation in smash covers multiple games instead of the one they went with.

The Chocobo design does not come from VII, rather it comes from one of the Chocobo spin-offs.

Yet the copyright still lists Final Fantasy VII specifically.

My point is that there's an oddity between the IPs when it comes to copyright.


Futhermore, this presents credence to the concept that each Final Fantasy is under its own copyright meaning Nintendo/Sakurai ONLY got the rights to VII, which includes the Chocobo, even if the design is not from it.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

The Chocobo design does not come from VII, rather it comes from one of the Chocobo spin-offs.

Yet the copyright still lists Final Fantasy VII specifically.

My point is that there's an oddity between the IPs when it comes to copyright.


Futhermore, this presents credence to the concept that each Final Fantasy is under its own copyright meaning Nintendo/Sakurai ONLY got the rights to VII, which includes the Chocobo, even if the design is not from it.

Ifrit in the Midgar Stage specifically is another example where the character design was taken from a game that is unrelated to FF7. The design is more based on the design from FF8.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Ifrit in the Midgar Stage specifically is another example where the character design was taken from a game that is unrelated to FF7. The design is more based on the design from FF8.

Seems designs weren't limited to VII so long as the thing has a presence within VII for copyright.

But something like say, Tidus or Kefka, off-limits unless their games got licensed separately.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

A bit of a weird question, but it's one that's been on my mind a lot as of late. What does the next game need to have for you to be satisfied? There's often a lot of talk of what we think is likely or what unlikely addition we'd want included, but I wanna gauge a little just what the bar is for people to be happy with the game.

For me, moveset redesigns are the main thing I'd want over anything else. I'm fine with new characters and stages, but I'd hope for a 50-60 overall roster in regards to base game, since they kinda play second fiddle if the returning vets are using the same moves as in Ultimate. I really wanna see what updates can be made now that there isn't an incentive to rush through development. Of the 15-20 characters that are solidly in my want pile, I'd be pretty satisfied with just one or hopefully two of em, be they kinda a side want or one of my never evers.

 

[Watuna4343]

A bit of a weird question, but it's one that's been on my mind a lot as of late. What does the next game need to have for you to be satisfied? There's often a lot of talk of what we think is likely or what unlikely addition we'd want included, but I wanna gauge a little just what the bar is for people to be happy with the game.

For me, moveset redesigns are the main thing I'd want over anything else. I'm fine with new characters and stages, and I'd hope for 50-60 of each for base, but they kinda play second fiddle if the returning vets are using the same moves as in Ultimate. I really wanna what updates can be made now that there isn't an incentive to rush through development. Of the 15-20 characters that are solidly in my want pile, I'd be pretty satisfied with just one or hopefully two of em, be they kinda a side want or one of my never evers.

For me the next Smash Bros to satisfy me would simply need to exist lol. But seriously, growing up with Brawl, I would love to have all of that single player content but I'd honestly be more than satisfied with an upgraded Melee-esque adventure mode and like 3-4 side modes (a la Target Smash, Boss Battles, Smash Run etc.). Like imo, that would be very much enough to satisfy me. The roster size is something I don't really care about. Obviously if the total roster is 30 characters it will be disappointing but that's not gonna happen in the first place, what I mean is realistically whether the roster has 50 characters or 60, I don't care. Because even with Ultimate having all these characters, the replayability of the game is weakening by the day for me just because there's not much more to do at this point... (if at all)

 

[Kirby Dragons]

A bit of a weird question, but it's one that's been on my mind a lot as of late. What does the next game need to have for you to be satisfied? There's often a lot of talk of what we think is likely or what unlikely addition we'd want included, but I wanna gauge a little just what the bar is for people to be happy with the game.

A good number of newcomers, with the newcomers themselves being satisfying choices.
A lot of the common moveset complaints being addressed.
Investing single player modes.
Good online.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

A bit of a weird question, but it's one that's been on my mind a lot as of late. What does the next game need to have for you to be satisfied? There's often a lot of talk of what we think is likely or what unlikely addition we'd want included, but I wanna gauge a little just what the bar is for people to be happy with the game.

For me, moveset redesigns are the main thing I'd want over anything else. I'm fine with new characters and stages, but I'd hope for a 50-60 overall roster in regards to base game, since they kinda play second fiddle if the returning vets are using the same moves as in Ultimate. I really wanna see what updates can be made now that there isn't an incentive to rush through development. Of the 15-20 characters that are solidly in my want pile, I'd be pretty satisfied with just one or hopefully two of em, be they kinda a side want or one of my never evers.

Well, a more typical number of newcomers in base game would be nice.

I'm hoping Sakurai and his team are like "okay we brought nearly every stage back in ultimate so this time we should probably focus on mostly new stages".

This is what I'm hoping that I think is realistic, I suppose? Primarily the first one, but I do feel (or hope at least) there will be genuine thought towards making the stage roster really fresh with minimal returnees.

I would also like some moveset reworks like Sonic and Lucario, but given Sakurai's opinions on things like that I don't find it particularly likely I guess?

And this is just me being hopeful, but I'd really like for all of the victory themes to be given new renditions this time so they all fit with each other instead of Ultimate's weird mishmash of Brawl themes, Smash 4 themes, new themes for Zelda and Mother, cut up versions of Yoshi's and Ice Climbers' themes, and original tracks from games like Joker's victory theme.

 

[DarthEnderX]

slides a picture of Robin across the table

Robin doesn't just die if he gets knocked off an edge when he doesn't have mana because all his recovery moves cost mana though.

Does Hero really play that badly?

Probably my most disliked besides Steve.

If showing up in spin-offs was all it takes to be a frontrunner, then we would have had Daisy much earlier and we wouldn't have constant Waluigi discussion as he'd already be in.
Same with Toad.

Toad is playable in a bunch of mainline games.

Well that's because Dragon quest is unique compared to FF7 and KH1 where it's representation in smash covers multiple games instead of the one they went with.

Uh...Sora has alts from 3 different KHs games.

 

[fogbadge]

WB: Help me Nintendo, please can you put Scorpion in Smash

Nintendo:

I think WB is more likely to throw itself off the cliff

So what do you think of Luigi's Mansion content in Smash?

So far we only have one stage since Brawl. We have three remixes from the franchise (mostly all from the first game) and one track directly from Dark Moon. We have a number of spirits.

With the success of Luigi's Mansion 3, and the 3DS and Switch ports of the first two games, what do you think will happen?

I am still very fond of the stage. a bit more music wouldn't go a miss I suppose. as for what I think will happen, not much. bit more music and a few more collectibles sure. and while I think it is possible we'd get a stage based on 3 I'd say it was less likely than others

 

[Perkilator]

A bit of a weird question, but it's one that's been on my mind a lot as of late. What does the next game need to have for you to be satisfied? There's often a lot of talk of what we think is likely or what unlikely addition we'd want included, but I wanna gauge a little just what the bar is for people to be happy with the game.

For me, only two things:

1. Sufficient veteran reworks across the board
2. A sufficient amount of single player content

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Robin doesn't just die if he gets knocked off an edge when he doesn't have mana because all his recovery moves cost mana though.

Um... yes he does? That's the entire drawback of the durability mechanic.

A bit of a weird question, but it's one that's been on my mind a lot as of late. What does the next game need to have for you to be satisfied? There's often a lot of talk of what we think is likely or what unlikely addition we'd want included, but I wanna gauge a little just what the bar is for people to be happy with the game.

For me, moveset redesigns are the main thing I'd want over anything else. I'm fine with new characters and stages, but I'd hope for a 50-60 overall roster in regards to base game, since they kinda play second fiddle if the returning vets are using the same moves as in Ultimate. I really wanna see what updates can be made now that there isn't an incentive to rush through development. Of the 15-20 characters that are solidly in my want pile, I'd be pretty satisfied with just one or hopefully two of em, be they kinda a side want or one of my never evers.

I just want it to have its own identity with cool new universal mechanics (air dashes are a good example but if the devs find something else that's cool, I'd be down for whatever that is too), an amount of single-player content that's more than the bare minimum and a decent amount of newcomers, so its existence would be justified alongside Ultimate despite any potential cuts in a console where both are playable.

I would also like to say a good netcode but I've given up on that hope for as long as Bandai Namco works on the series. Might become more optimistic if we ever find out that work on the netcode is outsourced though.

 

[Pupp135]

A bit of a weird question, but it's one that's been on my mind a lot as of late. What does the next game need to have for you to be satisfied? There's often a lot of talk of what we think is likely or what unlikely addition we'd want included, but I wanna gauge a little just what the bar is for people to be happy with the game.

For me, moveset redesigns are the main thing I'd want over anything else. I'm fine with new characters and stages, but I'd hope for a 50-60 overall roster in regards to base game, since they kinda play second fiddle if the returning vets are using the same moves as in Ultimate. I really wanna see what updates can be made now that there isn't an incentive to rush through development. Of the 15-20 characters that are solidly in my want pile, I'd be pretty satisfied with just one or hopefully two of em, be they kinda a side want or one of my never evers.

I don’t think there’s anything at the moment that would make the next game a deal breaker for me, assuming that the overall gameplay doesn’t get severely worse.

There are a few nice to haves (ranked vs unranked online, a few characters that I play/want being playable, and a more fleshed out Squad Strike), but these are inessential for me in the end to still enjoy the next game.