Quillion
Smash Hero
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The hell? How did that happen?
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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread
- Thread starter NonSpecificGuy
- Start date
Infinity Sorcerer
Smash Champion
Truly a bruh moment.
Also wondering why SE didn't putted XV on Cloud instead of use the Pocket Edition.
LiveStudioAudience
Smash Master
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Square Enix has not been great about preservation (in fairness to them, many major video companies have not been):
Square Enix Is Safe From Final Fantasy Leaks (Because It Lost The Source Codes)
The Gigaleak from two years ago essentially confirmed how much an outlier Nintendo is because they seemingly save everything they can; hence why uncompressed audio of Star Fox 64 and all sorts of prototypes were actually found. I mean even Star Fox programmer Dylan Cuthbert was baffled by what ended up being saved:
Wtf - I haven’t seen this tool I made for StarFox 2 for almost 30 years, I wrote it in early c++ to teach myself the language more than anything else. Where the hell have hackers got all this obscure data from????!! https://t.co/9kN9UoQPMS
— Dylan Makes Games (@dylancuthbert) July 24, 2020
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Quillion
Smash Hero
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Nintendo is more future-proofed than many would like to admit yet they don't take advantage of it. Interesting fact.
Infinity Sorcerer
Smash Champion
Rather than future-proofed I would call them very paranoic respect their propierties.
Quillion
Smash Hero
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Well put. That also accurately describes their circa AM2R-onward litigiousness.
Seriously, AM2R's extremely awful timing seems to have been the inverse of how Frozen allegedly convinced Disney to stop being so litigious.
DarthEnderX
Smash Hero
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I mean...it WAS. In the 80s and 90s. But it's a pretty dead genre these days, aside from the occasional revival.
SV-001 Metal Slug.
Amaterasu.
And that's clearly not a Dark-type. So...fart sound
Ryu Hayabusa.
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Chuderz
Smash Journeyman
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Just a fair warning this post is kind of all over the place and less focused by it's still my full thoughts on this matter. I'll leave a TL;DR at the bottom with appropriate spoilers both masking the off-topic rants and my actual suggestions for improving the Final Smash system in its entirety.
I specifically avoided exclusively relying on taking/landing hits because of my preference for that exclusivity of power generation being reserved for Final Smash-Attacks.
You could try to retool some of the cast's existing moves to tie into this Super-Smash-Special concept but the problem would be that most characters don't have a move to do that with like Ness and Lucas do. I think my proposal would be more fun because it'd add more depth to the game by giving the characters with a charge something to do while waiting for a KO'd opponent to get back (like Cloud mains almost always already do) to the stage or giving the KO'd player incentive to milk waiting out on the angel-platform for as long as possible should their opponent be a character with an Arsene-esque empowered state.
A rant is approaching! I should also clarify that I'd get rid of Joker's ability to passively generate his meter because it's total bull**** beyond balancing belief. Who the **** decided that was appropriate? It's so wildly insanely unfair that it's legitimately annoying because it seems like Smash team plays favorites. Also I think the tiny amount he's guaranteed no matter what is also crap. He should basically lose a set amount every time he loses a stock and if that puts him at zero then that's just that. I think getting rid of both of these things makes the empowered state much fairer in general since not only does he get to use his specials multiple times but his entire moveset basically is empowered as well. /endminirant
Anyway I think Final Smash-Attacks could be balanced. I've gone over how I'd do it and I think I thought of everything that could possibly be done. There are just a lot of problems with how they've been put into the game. At every corner of design they've been poorly implemented.
Cutscene/inescapable attack-sequences are clearly the route to go for balance but some characters have weird reticle aimer ones or they become super-duper like ROB currently is or Wario/Charizard were in Smash 4 (btw Warioman for Wario Mega-evolutions for appropriate Pokemons' empowered states would be dope and a no brainer). Then there's Peach and Daisy's which are just an absolute nightmare that I'd personally just get rid of entirely because they're extremely boring and lame anyways.
Then there's the fact that Final Smash-attacks are unblockable which is stupid. They all do a variety of knockback/damage which is another balancing nightmare. I'm fine with some having some extra status effects like sleep or adding a DOT but anything beyond that (and even those extra debuffs being tagged onto a Final-Smash are a big reach teetering on unfair) is just impossible to implement fairly. On top of all of this you're literally locked out of your specials while having a Final-Smash on deck which is extremely stupid.
Final Smash meter was a very important baby step in the right direction but it hardly matters since they literally messed up everything else. Having it passively build itself up on its own is also stupid. Additionally there's no penalty for losing a stock with regards to your Final Smash meter! That's just bad design!
Rant incoming! I think it's just another decision meant to keep the game dumb-downed. The design choices around casual play (i.e. children) can be so absurdly insulting to the playerbase as a whole. If Smash needs to take people that suck into account then create a baby-mode that's a quasi-moveable AI-assist in the manner of Mario Kart's. Don't lower the rest of the game and its audience to account for players that don't even really care about the game at all enough to give a **** about what they're doing! That's also fine by the way because I don't hate these kinds of players but I don't get why they're treated by Nintendo and the developers like they're so damn important that the entire franchise must be shaped around them when what literally defines their playstyle not giving a **** about what they're doing and just hitting random buttons. It's not so much about making the game more competitive as it is about giving it more depth for me but I think those two things are interlinked because depth is essentially what makes a game competitive in the first place. /endmegarant
It's like literally everything they could have possibly done wrong they did. I know people will defend it as supposedly having some intended fun factor but I don't think it's any fun to not see these beautiful attacks in a competitive setting nor do I think even taking these design blunders for granted that things like being locked out your specials and having Final-Smash-attacks be unblockable is any fun nor do I think balancing them more appropriately would negate in any of the inherent fun in their use whatsoever.
The things they actually got right were the meter itself (I also like it's minimalist design because it very unintrusive and the rainbow coloring pattern helps visually indicate the rate of progress to the player) and the fact that at least when you actually have full meter and lose a stock you lose like a quarter of your Final Smash meter but that still not enough. I also like how once you get Final Smash meter full it starts to immediately depreciate giving the player a sense of urgency to use it before it's too late incentivizing both the offensive player from the player with a full meter and defensive play from the opponent player without full Final Smash meter and this is specifically great because it adds depth to the game.
I'll leave a repost of my thoughts from my moveset expansion post in this spoiler if you care to read it though I noticed you're one of the ones that liked that post so I guess you might not need to do that. I'll leave both my thoughts on competitive Final Smash-attacks themselves and my thoughts on relegating their dedicated buttons to either L3/R3.
TL;DR
So just TL;DR refresher of what's wrong with the current Final Smash-attack/meter system:
- They're wildly different in implementation from each other when they should really be set to cutscenes or inescapable attack-sequences
- They have wildly different damage outputs and properties when they should really be more uniformed
- They build up meter on their own
- They're unblockable
- They lock you out of using your specials
- There's borderline no penalty on your Final Smash Meter for losing a stock
- The introduction of a Final-Smash meter itself
- The unintrusive minimalist design of the current Final-Smash meter
- The rainbow coloring scheme of the meter's charge is a great visual indication of progress
- The fact that Final-Smash meter immediately starts to depreciate when it's full which simultaneously incentives both offensive and defensive play around it whether it's the urgency of its use or stalling it out.
- You can thankfully spotdodge/roll past them but that's like so the bare minimum it's hardly worth mentioning. At least they didn't screw that up.
Meter no longer builds on its own at all. You fight to build your meter. If you have exactly or over half your meter when you lose a stock (or get KO'd in stamina mode) you lose half of that meter and if you have less than half your meter you lose ALL of your meter when losing a stock.
Make Final Smashes blockable but of course if your shield is weak it's either a break or a confirm, whatever Smash team thinks would be best. Assign a specific button (strictly either R3 or L3) to Final Smash attacks so that you can use your specials in the charged state.
All characters get a competitive Final Smash so some characters will have two Final Smashes, this can be addressed in advance rules (i.e. locking characters to their competitive Final Smash). Competitive Final Smashes are essentially cutscenes/inescapable-attack-sequences that do a fixed amount of damage across the entire cast (I'd keep it a strict 30 damage; 40 tops) and knockback is exclusively determined (balanced) by the exact weight of the character on the receiving end. Some characters already have competitive Final Smashes (based on my criteria) so they're fine as is and just need the updates everyone else is getting. Some characters' "uncompetitive" Final Smashes can be incorporated into Super Smash Attacks instead in some cases. Peach's and Daisy's heals would be an example of NOT fitting either a retooled Super Smash Attack or a competitive Final Smash. All of these competitive Final Smashes will be locked to either an R3 or L3 input. Final Smash attacks with reticle aimers will be considered uncompetitive. If competitive Final Smash attacks are not turned on in advanced rules then every character with what is considered an uncompetitive Final Smash Attack will have that Final Smash attack defaulted to. Nerfed versions of "big-blaster" Final Smash attacks (Samus, Inkling, Mario/Doc) could potentially be retooled into Super Smash attacks I believe.
R3 and L3 are now able to be button mapped. They can only be mapped to auto-lock and Final Smash although a tag-in feature for Squad Strike will be tied to inputting R3 and L3 together simultaneously.
Make Final Smashes blockable but of course if your shield is weak it's either a break or a confirm, whatever Smash team thinks would be best. Assign a specific button (strictly either R3 or L3) to Final Smash attacks so that you can use your specials in the charged state.
All characters get a competitive Final Smash so some characters will have two Final Smashes, this can be addressed in advance rules (i.e. locking characters to their competitive Final Smash). Competitive Final Smashes are essentially cutscenes/inescapable-attack-sequences that do a fixed amount of damage across the entire cast (I'd keep it a strict 30 damage; 40 tops) and knockback is exclusively determined (balanced) by the exact weight of the character on the receiving end. Some characters already have competitive Final Smashes (based on my criteria) so they're fine as is and just need the updates everyone else is getting. Some characters' "uncompetitive" Final Smashes can be incorporated into Super Smash Attacks instead in some cases. Peach's and Daisy's heals would be an example of NOT fitting either a retooled Super Smash Attack or a competitive Final Smash. All of these competitive Final Smashes will be locked to either an R3 or L3 input. Final Smash attacks with reticle aimers will be considered uncompetitive. If competitive Final Smash attacks are not turned on in advanced rules then every character with what is considered an uncompetitive Final Smash Attack will have that Final Smash attack defaulted to. Nerfed versions of "big-blaster" Final Smash attacks (Samus, Inkling, Mario/Doc) could potentially be retooled into Super Smash attacks I believe.
R3 and L3 are now able to be button mapped. They can only be mapped to auto-lock and Final Smash although a tag-in feature for Squad Strike will be tied to inputting R3 and L3 together simultaneously.
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yeah nintendo is probably one of the best at preserving their games
Lionfranky
Smash Lord
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Agumon, Amaterasu, Spyro
Geno Boost
Smash Master
i forgot to mention mine
my non-humanoid characters i want are a lot such as Grovyle, Rayman, Crash, Sukapon, Club Penguin, Ms. Pac-man, Boshi, Hakkun
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Quillion
Smash Hero
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What do you mean by not having moves that are suited to super specials? Just plainly powering them up will work for 90 percent of them.
Also making all Final Smashes cutscene-type would make them even more boring. I already hate how transformation-type FS was scrapped.
Geno Boost
Smash Master
Curious does anyone think Sony rep in smash is actually possible? You know someone like Kratos or even Q*bert
I know getting Sony character to smash would probably be a big deal
I know getting Sony character to smash would probably be a big deal
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Quillion
Smash Hero
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I'll only think it's remotely possible when Sony IE puts one of their IPs on Xbox.
Perkilator
Smash Legend
There was a problem fetching the tweet
For me:- Fire Emblem Heroes
- Dragalia Lost
- Luigi’s Mansion 3
- NEO: The World Ends with You
- Kirby and the Forgotten Land
Geno Boost
Smash Master
For me it would be
-Pac-man world
-Pokémon mystery dungeon
-Startropic
-Pro Wrestling NES
-Shin Megami Tensei
-Nester’s Funky Bowling
-Other Rareware games series
-Alex Kidd
-Taito games series
-Other FF games series
-Porky
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PeridotGX
Smash Hero
I think that it's possible, and if there's a holdup it would be on Nintendo's side, not Sony's. Right now, Playstation's trying to advertise their IPs anywhere they can. They're doing a ton of Fortnite collabs (available on all systems), they're bringing their games to PC, they're doing a **** ton of Movie/TV adaptations, so on so forth. If Sakurai and Nintendo asked, they would probably say yes - Some Nintendo fans might get interested in the character and their series, and buy a PlayStation (or the PC port) to give them a try. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Sony's already benefitted from Smash - Persona 5 and FF7R aren't Sony IP, but they either are or were exclusive to their ecosystem. Meanwhile, Nintendo isn't really playing nice - no PC ports, no Fortnite collabs, etc. They might not want to risk "losing" fans to Sony, a stilly prospect in my opinion but something to think about.
surely crash counts as humanoid
chocolatejr9
Smash Hero
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I still think they're still burned after the Phillips CD-I incident, and don't wanna risk a repeat...
we know I’ve been telling everyone that for years. Though you missed out the part where was made by the guys who did gta
Ivander
Smash Legend
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I think it's very possible, especially if Microsoft stays on board for later Smash Bros. games. I'm just curious on who it might be, since while Kratos is a notable pick in terms of Sony reps, he's not exactly popular in Japan. And so far, Smash Bros. has been rather focused on characters Japan wants, which does include Western characters, since Banjo-Kazooie was also a popular request in Japan.
The West does get thrown a few bones here and then, like Ridley and Dark Samus. But who Sony's first character will be in Smash we'll probably have to wait until it happens.
HyperSomari64
Smash Champion
Mah Boi...
PeridotGX
Smash Hero
I think the frontrunner is Ratchet & Clank, at least from Sony's perspective. If Sony wants to "convert" Nintendo fans, it would be best to start with a character that Nintendo fans would like. The Rachet games wouldn't be out of place on a Nintendo system, and unlike Sony's other cartoony series it isn't dead. They would just be a far better sell to Nintendo audiences than, say, Ellie.
After Rachet, I think Kratos and Aloy are most likely. I think Kratos is ahead right now, but if the Horizon series continues to thrive, the latter could certainly take the lead. They're far more in-line with most of Sony's output, but still a bit more to the tastes of Nintendo fans than Nathan Drake.
Diddy Kong
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Serious question: should we petition to the mods to have us open character specific support threads? Cause it's already proven that selection of characters are chosen before we know there's another Smash Bros. coming. So with that in mind, now is the best exact time to voice our wants in terms of characters.
Chuderz
Smash Journeyman
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Specifically I was speaking with regard to your saying that while certain characters would have their own way to charge the Super-Smash-Special meter like Ness' and Lucas' PSI magnet most of the rest of the cast would just garner the meter with taking/landing hits. I'm saying that most characters don't have this and I'd rather they either have either a Rebel's Guard or Limit Charge equivalent dedicated to its own button because I'd rather Final Smash-attacks are earned by landing/generating hits exclusively. It doesn't really matter I guess in that your proposal would be the other possible route to getting them to function but I'd just personally like the player to have a more active role in generating a Super-Smash-Special.
I think with regards to Final Smash-attacks the overwhelming factor in skillful use is simply landing them which can vary from character to character and they already do. I really love how Banjo summons the jinjonator from the ground to land his for example and I think every character with a horizontal swipe like Joker's should also get the ability to go in the reverse of the initial direction like his does. Cloud swipes like Joker but he doesn't get to reverse course like his and I think that's unfair.
I disagree because I think cutscene Final Smash-attacks are visually interesting, can always be used to incorporate unplayable cast members from the characeters' games and can justify more absurd attacks that'd never be able to work for an actual move like Steve's house of TNT creepers for example. I think they're much easy to make too but that's just a guess on my part, I don't really know that.
There could be a best of both worlds where every character is given a "competitive" cutscene Final Smash while also retaining their more uncompetitive reticle, aimer or Peach and Daisy's insane healing because this could be addressed in advanced options by toggling on "competitive Final-Smash" and should this feature not be turned on the characters will default to their aforementioned "uncompetitive" Final Smash-attacks. I think cutscene Final Smash-attacks are the best possible route to making them balanced. I also said inescapable attack-sequences too (which I think are kind of different) but I presume you think of that as a cutscene too which is fair enough.
I think the old transformation Final-Smash-attacks could much better utilized by retooling them into an Arsene-esque empowered state for the characters that could justify having them though I'd definitely drop the infinite jumps with Wario-man. Charizard and Sonic could still fly in their respective mega/super forms but I'd make the player hold the jump-input to have that function and should they let go the character will fall normally.
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Geno Boost
Smash Master
I kinda view being Neckless as less humanoid
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I found it weird that Evil Ryu was just a one-off - I honestly figured that we'd be getting more.
I feel like they'd add spirits for Fire Emblem: Three Hopes, even if it's just one spirit for the new character. (or two if they have alternate genders - I haven't followed the game too closely)
Kirby and the Forgotten Land might work, but I'm not sure if they'd just add a spirit for Elfilin or if they'd include more, like Kirby's Mouthful Mode car form.
I was a little surprised that we didn't get spirits for Persona 4 Arena Ultimax; something like Yu, Aigis, Teddy, and Elizabeth could work. The upcoming release of the Capcom Fighting Collection could have justified a set of Darkstalkers spirits, like Morrigan, Lilith, Demitri, and Jon Talbain.
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feels like cheating but ok
Ivander
Smash Legend
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Maybe. Rachet & Clank would certainly fit in easily with Smash's style. Although Rachet and Clank don't seem to have much presence in Japan either. It's something I've noticed with quite a bunch of Sony series is that they don't have much Japanese presence. Both Horizon games did decently in Japan though.
Another game that could be likely for Smash if it does become a series is Bloodborne, as it is very popular worldwide, including Japan. And the Hunter from Bloodborne has a very recognisable design and good moveset potential like the above three.
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How about a total humanoid?
Lionfranky
Smash Lord
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The only character that Japanese fans exclusively wanted was Hero. Banjo is kinda reverse. Rest of DLC have world wide appeal. So, I am not sure it's really that biased toward Japan. It's just that each newcomer takes much more time and resource. Character that was really skewed toward west was Little Mac who actually got flak, negative reception from Japanese fans.
Ivander
Smash Legend
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Was it really negative reception? Or was it them just joking about how Mac got fit after Captain Rainbow? Like, I don't think there was really any negative reception to Little Mac aside from him once being rather powerful and easy to use early on in Smash 4's life. Much like Min-Min. Also, Namco Bandai wanted Little Mac.
And no, Dragon Quest was not exclusively wanted from Japan only. The West was the reason why Dragon Quest 8's Hero was picked as a Hero Alt. And while Banjo & Kazooie may have had alot of popularity in the West, it was noted by Sakurai himself that there were alot of Japanese votes for Banjo & Kazooie as well.
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DarthEnderX
Smash Hero
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Just things I want that won't even get Miis or ATs:
StarTropics
Pro Wrestling
Gradius
Rygar
Blaster Master
Crystalis
Maniac Mansion
Wizards & Warriors
Lionfranky
Smash Lord
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I remember Banjo scoring high, but in Japan? Do you have link?
I guess I should've said relatively instead of exclusively. But my point stands
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Early on there were definitely some reports of a lot of the JP side of the fanbase calling him the equivalent of a Literal Who. And not in the "I legitimately don't know who this is" way, but rather in the way that the more toxic side of the Western part of the fanbase uses it. "Who even asked for this Literal Who," that kinda stuff. It eventually died down, but it was there.
