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Here's my short take on Ganon, including Ganondorf: he doesn't have an "iconic ability" at all, just an iconic "general idea" of being physically strong, magically capable, and skilled with bladed weapons. He always changes specific abilities from game to game, only really keeping in that general idea.
I just rewatched all of the Ganondorf boss fights from throughout the series and you’re mostly right. He doesn’t really do anything interesting in Wind Waker or Twilight Princess that you can really pull from for an interesting Smash moveset. His attacks are mostly just basic sword slashes. Almost all of his unique abilities come from Ocarina of Time as Ganondorf and the older games as Ganon. You could also take some inspiration from Demise since Ganondorf is basically his reincarnation. I think it could be interesting to pull from Hyrule Warriors as well. While those games may not be canon, they did really flesh out the movesets of the Zelda cast and Koei-Tecmo worked directly with Nintendo so everything the characters do in those games have been officially approved.
I just rewatched all of the Ganondorf boss fights from throughout the series and you’re mostly right. He doesn’t really do anything interesting in Wind Waker or Twilight Princess that you can really pull from for an interesting Smash moveset. His attacks are mostly just basic sword slashes. Almost all of his unique abilities come from Ocarina of Time as Ganondorf and the older games as Ganon. You could also take some inspiration from Demise since Ganondorf is basically his reincarnation. I think it could be interesting to pull from Hyrule Warriors as well. While those games may not be canon, they did really flesh out the movesets of the Zelda cast and Koei-Tecmo worked directly with Nintendo so everything the characters do in those games have been officially approved.
I guess it could be said that Zelda and Ganondorf in Melee were designed the way they were on the assumption that their Ocarina of Time ability sets would be the concrete standard for their incarnations in future games. Of course, they were wrong. Nintendo really wants to push Ganon as a sword wielder since OoT outside of explicit throwbacks to the first four games, even then, they want him to wield different kinds of swords rather than the same sword every time. Nintendo also wants Light Arrows to be Zelda's preferred method of combat on the off-chance she has to throw down.
There's also the issue of Ganon being a powerful, Voldemort-tier dark sorcerer, but even then most of his magical feats are off-screen, and you can't really make a moveset out of things done off-screen. The most he has is a Blazing Bat, electric orb, or what have you with ranged magic, which at best can only fill a Neutral B.
This isn't like Bowser having his fire breath to begin with, then gaining his Ground Pound by his next appearance (depending on how you count Lost Levels), with those two moves staying with him in practically every Bowser boss from then on.
It's certainly a tough case to crack for both Ganondorf and Zelda, since, as I said earlier, both have outright diverged from what Melee assumed to be their standard ability sets. That said, I'm not quite as concerned with alienating older fans as I once was, especially since I would be more than happy to alienate the fans of the Smash 4-on newcomers by revamping them to be closer to 64/Melee newcomer moveset design.
Nintendo really wants to push Ganon as a sword wielder since OoT outside of explicit throwbacks to the first four games, even then, they want him to wield different kinds of swords rather than the same sword every time.
That's almost assigning too much intent to them. Ganondorf, in his 25 year long history as Ganondorf has used swords twice, from the period of 2002-2006. After that the character outright disappeared, which is the truly bizarre thing. With the exception of his corpse being puppeteered in A Link Between Worlds, Breath of the Wild was the first appearance of Ganon in over ten years. As people have pointed out, as the human Ganondorf, he's appeared in more Smash games than Zelda games! And yet people bizarrely still think he's overplayed and want Zelda to explore other villains, as if they haven't been doing that for years. Which I guess just goes to show how looming his presence is a character despite the Zelda developers surprising lack of interest in him. You're right though in that Ganondorf doesn't have any clearly defined ability set. The closest is as Ganon, wielding a trident (which he didn't even do in his first appearance of more bestial forms) and warping around the place. Their main interest is creating unique boss battles rather than forging a solid identity for the character beyond "powerful" and "menacing". He's set to appear in Breath of the Wild 2 now and we can be sure if he's fought as a boss there they'll probably do something different again.
That's almost assigning too much intent to them. Ganondorf, in his 25 year long history as Ganondorf has used swords twice, from the period of 2002-2006. After that the character outright disappeared, which is the truly bizarre thing. With the exception of his corpse being puppeteered in A Link Between Worlds, Breath of the Wild was the first appearance of Ganon in over ten years. As people have pointed out, as the human Ganondorf, he's appeared in more Smash games than Zelda games! And yet people bizarrely still think he's overplayed and want Zelda to explore other villains, as if they haven't been doing that for years. Which I guess just goes to show how looming his presence is a character despite the Zelda developers surprising lack of interest in him. You're right though in that Ganondorf doesn't have any clearly defined ability set. The closest is as Ganon, wielding a trident (which he didn't even do in his first appearance of more bestial forms) and warping around the place. Their main interest is creating unique boss battles rather than forging a solid identity for the character beyond "powerful" and "menacing". He's set to appear in Breath of the Wild 2 now and we can be sure if he's fought as a boss there they'll probably do something different again.
I actually was not talking about Ganondorf the man specifically; I was talking about Ganon as a whole, including Ganondorf the man, Ganon the pig, and other forms that don't adhere to those two archetypes.
Like it or not, Ganon the pig in OoT was the origin of him being a sword user. This transferred over to Ganondorf the man in WW and TP. And even the imperfect cyborg Calamity Ganon uses a sword as his main armament.
I honestly am pretty tired of Ganon in any form being a sword wielder and would like him to experiment with different fighting styles, but it is what it is.
Personally, if you asked me to do a Ganon(dorf) moveset, I'd probably go with a composite 'Dorf that dual-wields swords, since he did that both in Wind Waker and as Ganon in Ocarina of Time. Also give him a trident for use in smash attacks and/or specials, and some magical attacks, and I think you hit all the bases for conveying who Ganon is.
I would honestly base Zelda around the BotW Sheikah Runes now, and have the Light Arrows as a Special, might even be a straight copy from Byleth's Failnaught attack.
I mean, she's gonna be part of Link's adventure somehow in BotW2, so no reason to not base Smash Zelda around one of the most actively fighting Zeldas in the franchise right.
Ganondorf also surprisingly has little to work with honestly. I too advocated for Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf at some point, in general I felt Hyrule Warriors did the Zelda cast better than Smash. Pre Ultimate I'd have signed for Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Toon Link and Impa being based around the Hyrule Warriors movesets (Rapier for Zelda, Trident for Ganondorf and Naginata for Impa), but right now that boat has sailed....
I do think Impa has a shot of being based around her Age of Calamity design however. Which I think would be amazing if they did that, as it would be a natural fit and AoC Impa is the most popular version of her as of yet, and AoC is the most popular Warriors game as of yet.
I would honestly base Zelda around the BotW Sheikah Runes now, and have the Light Arrows as a Special, might even be a straight copy from Byleth's Failnaught attack.
I mean, she's gonna be part of Link's adventure somehow in BotW2, so no reason to not base Smash Zelda around one of the most actively fighting Zeldas in the franchise right.
Ganondorf also surprisingly has little to work with honestly. I too advocated for Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf at some point, in general I felt Hyrule Warriors did the Zelda cast better than Smash. Pre Ultimate I'd have signed for Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Toon Link and Impa being based around the Hyrule Warriors movesets (Rapier for Zelda, Trident for Ganondorf and Naginata for Impa), but right now that boat has sailed....
I do think Impa has a shot of being based around her Age of Calamity design however. Which I think would be amazing if they did that, as it would be a natural fit and AoC Impa is the most popular version of her as of yet, and AoC is the most popular Warriors game as of yet.
I assure you, even though the Wild era is becoming a saga of its own on par with the Hero of Time Saga, that would become dated on the spot. They're going to have to move on from the Wild saga someday. It would be the problem of FLUDD and Cape on a whole moveset-wide scale.
I assure you, even though the Wild era is becoming a saga of its own on par with the Hero of Time Saga, that would become dated on the spot. They're going to have to move on from the Wild saga someday. It would be the problem of FLUDD and Cape on a whole moveset-wide scale.
Touché, but updating a character's moveset in a crossover fighter requires taking multiple factors into account. These factors include but aren't limited to:
If the potential update is relevant now.
If the potential update has recurred many times in source material in the past.
If the potential update will gel with established moveset design.
If the potential update will be a simple "press button to get result" move or a "gimmicky" move that requires further button presses, interaction from the opponent, etc.
Frankly, most of the "faithfulness crowd" who wants to revamp the older veterans only take into account the first factor in that list.
Touché, but updating a character's moveset in a crossover fighter requires taking multiple factors into account. These factors include but aren't limited to:
If the potential update is relevant now.
If the potential update has recurred many times in source material in the past.
If the potential update will gel with established moveset design.
If the potential update will be a simple "press button to get result" move or a "gimmicky" move that requires further button presses, interaction from the opponent, etc.
Frankly, most of the "faithfulness crowd" who wants to revamp the older veterans only take into account the first factor in that list.
Yeah but in Zelda's case, all her attacks are outdated. Even the newest one, Phantom. Which isn't even appropriate with the versions of Zelda that used it as a Down Special.
Breath of the Wild is turning to be a major turning point for Zelda going onward, much like what Ocarina of Time was before.
FLUDD is a weird choice to keep for Mario still, cause Sunshine wasn't as much a turning point for the Mario series, but I do feel BotW is just that game for Zelda. Mario was better off having Cappy or the Galaxy Spin as Down B, cause those are more important games in the franchise overall.
Yeah but in Zelda's case, all her attacks are outdated. Even the newest one, Phantom. Which isn't even appropriate with the versions of Zelda that used it as a Down Special.
Breath of the Wild is turning to be a major turning point for Zelda going onward, much like what Ocarina of Time was before.
It's hard to really call Zelda's specials "outdated" when she has only one concretely iconic ability in combat: shooting Light Arrows. You can say sealing evil is a loosely iconic ability, but that's a flashy overpowered move better suited to a Final Smash, and even then the various Zelda's only ever did that twice.
Besides, BotW Link being the current Link has the job of representing BotW being a turning point for Zelda, and I say this as someone who still feels alienated by his moveset changes and wishes we at least had TP and OoT Link as an explicit echo for him.
FLUDD is a weird choice to keep for Mario still, cause Sunshine wasn't as much a turning point for the Mario series, but I do feel BotW is just that game for Zelda. Mario was better off having Cappy or the Galaxy Spin as Down B, cause those are more important games in the franchise overall.
Honestly, I wouldn't call any of the 3D Mario games other than 64 a "turning point" at this point. They've gotten into the habit of releasing 3D Mario in duologies, and even 64 and Sunshine forms a loose "120 Star duology". Cappy will just be left behind just as the Luma Spin was.
That said, I would prefer to restore Tornado to his Down B, and maybe they could add a Luma to that move's animation. Wouldn't be a stretch since Tornado was more based on the Spin Jump anyway. Anything to make Mario more generalized across his platformers rather than tied to one/a few in such a weird way.
I’d honestly be fine with either a dual swords style for Ganondorf or a trident wielding moveset. Both weapons would be very unique to Smash would help him stand out as a character. If I was going to pick one weapon, I’d lean towards the trident since that was the character’s first weapon (as Ganon) and has more iconic more iconic moves utilizing it. Like I mentioned, Wind Waker’s Ganondorf doesn’t have a whole lot to pull from other than basic slashes. The same can be said for his battle in Twilight Princess.
I think primarily making the character’s moveset a hybrid between his Ocarina of Time appearance and his classic pig form from the older games would be the most interesting. He would be very unique to Smash being a slow, physically powerful character with dark magic attacks. I think he should be shown to levitate in some way through either his walk, run, or idle animations similar to other characters like Dark Samus, Mewtwo, and Sephiroth. The trident also compliments a dark mage style moveset very well. I see him having a lot of similarities to Magus from Chrono Trigger who is also a powerful dark mage wields a pole arm. Mix that with a bit of Lu Bu’s brute force and I think you have a pretty cool and unique character who directly takes from his source material.
I think I’ll make a whole moveset for him but here’s just a few rough ideas I came up with so far for his specials:
Neutral - Dead Man’s Volley - Ganondorf fires a powerful electric orb straight forward. If this move is charged, Ganondorf levitates in the air while charging and instead shoots a more powerful orb diagonally downwards. Using this move in the air will also shoot the orb diagonally downwards rather than straight foremward.
Up - Trident Toss - Ganondorf tosses his trident in one of eight directions and teleports to its location
Forward - Fire Bats - Short to medium range projectile that sends out a wave of bats directly in front of him. This would have some similarities to flamethrower style moves (slight inspiration taken from the Fire bat move from Diablo)
Down - Cape reflector - This is essentially Mario’s reflector, which would allow him to party his Dead Man’s Volley and just works well with his character.
It's hard to really call Zelda's specials "outdated" when she has only one concretely iconic ability in combat: shooting Light Arrows. You can say sealing evil is a loosely iconic ability, but that's a flashy overpowered move better suited to a Final Smash, and even then the various Zelda's only ever did that twice.
Besides, BotW Link being the current Link has the job of representing BotW being a turning point for Zelda, and I say this as someone who still feels alienated by his moveset changes and wishes we at least had TP and OoT Link as an explicit echo for him.
Honestly, I wouldn't call any of the 3D Mario games other than 64 a "turning point" at this point. They've gotten into the habit of releasing 3D Mario in duologies, and even 64 and Sunshine forms a loose "120 Star duology". Cappy will just be left behind just as the Luma Spin was.
That said, I would prefer to restore Tornado to his Down B, and maybe they could add a Luma to that move's animation. Wouldn't be a stretch since Tornado was more based on the Spin Jump anyway. Anything to make Mario more generalized across his platformers rather than tied to one/a few in such a weird way.
I agree with a lot here. At least OOT Link as a Echo to Link would've been warranted, would fit amazingly well with the designs of Sheik, Ganondorf and Young Link of course.
Zelda's most iconic abilities indeed are the Light Arrows and sealing away of evil, so that can stay, I'd straight up copy Byleth's Failnaught to give Zelda the Light Arrows in her moveset.
The Mario Tornado indeed is the best choice for a Down B after all. It's weird Mario doesn't have it, but Luigi and Dr.Mario do, making them more similar , which is weird.
I’d honestly be fine with either a dual swords style for Ganondorf or a trident wielding moveset. Both weapons would be very unique to Smash would help him stand out as a character. If I was going to pick one weapon, I’d lean towards the trident since that was the character’s first weapon (as Ganon) and has more iconic more iconic moves utilizing it. Like I mentioned, Wind Waker’s Ganondorf doesn’t have a whole lot to pull from other than basic slashes. The same can be said for his battle in Twilight Princess.
I think primarily making the character’s moveset a hybrid between his Ocarina of Time appearance and his classic pig form from the older games would be the most interesting. He would be very unique to Smash being a slow, physically powerful character with dark magic attacks. I think he should be shown to levitate in some way through either his walk, run, or idle animations similar to other characters like Dark Samus, Mewtwo, and Sephiroth. The trident also compliments a dark mage style moveset very well. I see him having a lot of similarities to Magus from Chrono Trigger who is also a powerful dark mage wields a pole arm. Mix that with a bit of Lu Bu’s brute force and I think you have a pretty cool and unique character who directly takes from his source material.
I think I’ll make a whole moveset for him but here’s just a few rough ideas I came up with so far for his specials:
Neutral - Dead Man’s Volley - Ganondorf levitates in the air and fires a powerful electric orb diagonally downwards.
Up - Trident Toss - Ganondorf tosses his trident in one of eight directions and teleports to its location
Forward - Fire Bats - Short to medium range projectile that sends out a wave of bats directly in front of him. This would have some similarities to flamethrower style moves (slight inspiration taken from the Fire bat move from Diablo)
Down - Cape reflector - This is essentially Mario’s reflector, which would allow him to party his Dead Man’s Volley and just works well with his character.
I like those ideas, a lot actually. I wouldn't do the Down B tho, you can do the cape reflection with B when Ganondorf throws the electric energy ball I feel. Down B needs to be something powerful, as say the earthquake punch of Ocarina of Time, or what about the enormous dark energy charge up projectile ?
Overall his Ocarina of Time appearance had the most to work with, so I'd mostly base Ganondorf around that.
Also Ganondorf is consistently horrible as a competitive character for 3 games in a row, a Ganon transformation mechanic might actually not result in him being OP honestly.
I kinda already wanted Ganon when I saw him as a Boss in Ultimate, and I think they could really make him into a good fighter, if they shrink Ganon down a bit. Just make it a mechanic that works as a sort of "suicide" option, you can use it after taking 100% damage , but during the transformation you take serious damage. Ganondorf typically has awful recovery so it wouldn't even be OP by a longshot.
I agree with a lot here. At least OOT Link as a Echo to Link would've been warranted, would fit amazingly well with the designs of Sheik, Ganondorf and Young Link of course.
I actually was not talking about Ganondorf the man specifically; I was talking about Ganon as a whole, including Ganondorf the man, Ganon the pig, and other forms that don't adhere to those two archetypes.
Like it or not, Ganon the pig in OoT was the origin of him being a sword user. This transferred over to Ganondorf the man in WW and TP. And even the imperfect cyborg Calamity Ganon uses a sword as his main armament.
I honestly am pretty tired of Ganon in any form being a sword wielder and would like him to experiment with different fighting styles, but it is what it is.
I was still talking about plain old Ganon. In any form he disappeared after Twilight Princess until Breath of the Wild. I also wouldn't describe swords as his main armament in Breath of the Wild. That's misleading to anyone who hasn't played the game. He uses the ancient weapon types, which are a variety of weapons including a sword, giant axe, a spear, an arm cannon and even that chiansaw blade thingy (I think).
I would honestly base Zelda around the BotW Sheikah Runes now, and have the Light Arrows as a Special, might even be a straight copy from Byleth's Failnaught attack.
I mean, she's gonna be part of Link's adventure somehow in BotW2, so no reason to not base Smash Zelda around one of the most actively fighting Zeldas in the franchise right.
Ganondorf also surprisingly has little to work with honestly. I too advocated for Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf at some point, in general I felt Hyrule Warriors did the Zelda cast better than Smash. Pre Ultimate I'd have signed for Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Toon Link and Impa being based around the Hyrule Warriors movesets (Rapier for Zelda, Trident for Ganondorf and Naginata for Impa), but right now that boat has sailed....
I do think Impa has a shot of being based around her Age of Calamity design however. Which I think would be amazing if they did that, as it would be a natural fit and AoC Impa is the most popular version of her as of yet, and AoC is the most popular Warriors game as of yet.
I think the Sheikah Slate abilities would be better suited incorporated into Sheik's moveset. Sheik has the least referential moveset by far of the Zelda characters having a grand total of one move, up special, actually being from the Zelda series. At least Zelda is taking something with her specials even if it's stuff she never did. Of course it's natural most of everything is made up, because Breath of the Wild was the first time we ever got to see how a sheikah might actually fight. And unlike Link or Zelda, it wouldn't be any dated being put on Sheik because Sheik likely won't be appearing in any future games (though personally I'd love if they did bring back Sheik for a Zelda game with the player presuming it's a Zelda disguise only to reveal it's a different character entirely).
It's hard to really call Zelda's specials "outdated" when she has only one concretely iconic ability in combat: shooting Light Arrows. You can say sealing evil is a loosely iconic ability, but that's a flashy overpowered move better suited to a Final Smash, and even then the various Zelda's only ever did that twice.
Besides, BotW Link being the current Link has the job of representing BotW being a turning point for Zelda, and I say this as someone who still feels alienated by his moveset changes and wishes we at least had TP and OoT Link as an explicit echo for him.
Honestly, I wouldn't call any of the 3D Mario games other than 64 a "turning point" at this point. They've gotten into the habit of releasing 3D Mario in duologies, and even 64 and Sunshine forms a loose "120 Star duology". Cappy will just be left behind just as the Luma Spin was.
That said, I would prefer to restore Tornado to his Down B, and maybe they could add a Luma to that move's animation. Wouldn't be a stretch since Tornado was more based on the Spin Jump anyway. Anything to make Mario more generalized across his platformers rather than tied to one/a few in such a weird way.
I don't play Mario, but I think that kind of ignores the fact that FLUDD is considered a pretty great move for Mario. Sure it might be outdated, but we have entire characters that are outdate like Captain Falcon and Ness. I'm willing to have an outdate move or two if they work well for the character. Though for the umpteenth time I'll note my view that incorporating proper custom specials would allow us to have outdated moves in tandem with updated moves.
I’d honestly be fine with either a dual swords style for Ganondorf or a trident wielding moveset. Both weapons would be very unique to Smash would help him stand out as a character. If I was going to pick one weapon, I’d lean towards the trident since that was the character’s first weapon (as Ganon) and has more iconic more iconic moves utilizing it. Like I mentioned, Wind Waker’s Ganondorf doesn’t have a whole lot to pull from other than basic slashes. The same can be said for his battle in Twilight Princess.
I think primarily making the character’s moveset a hybrid between his Ocarina of Time appearance and his classic pig form from the older games would be the most interesting. He would be very unique to Smash being a slow, physically powerful character with dark magic attacks. I think he should be shown to levitate in some way through either his walk, run, or idle animations similar to other characters like Dark Samus, Mewtwo, and Sephiroth. The trident also compliments a dark mage style moveset very well. I see him having a lot of similarities to Magus from Chrono Trigger who is also a powerful dark mage wields a pole arm. Mix that with a bit of Lu Bu’s brute force and I think you have a pretty cool and unique character who directly takes from his source material.
I think I’ll make a whole moveset for him but here’s just a few rough ideas I came up with so far for his specials:
Neutral - Dead Man’s Volley - Ganondorf levitates in the air and fires a powerful electric orb diagonally downwards.
Up - Trident Toss - Ganondorf tosses his trident in one of eight directions and teleports to its location
Forward - Fire Bats - Short to medium range projectile that sends out a wave of bats directly in front of him. This would have some similarities to flamethrower style moves (slight inspiration taken from the Fire bat move from Diablo)
Down - Cape reflector - This is essentially Mario’s reflector, which would allow him to party his Dead Man’s Volley and just works well with his character.
Aside from the Cape as a reflector, that's all stuff he does as Ganon. So I'd much prefer actually putting that stuff on the actual character of Pig Beast Ganon and leave our current Ganondorf, who is still a rather well liked character, as is.
I agree with a lot here. At least OOT Link as a Echo to Link would've been warranted, would fit amazingly well with the designs of Sheik, Ganondorf and Young Link of course.
Zelda's most iconic abilities indeed are the Light Arrows and sealing away of evil, so that can stay, I'd straight up copy Byleth's Failnaught to give Zelda the Light Arrows in her moveset.
The Mario Tornado indeed is the best choice for a Down B after all. It's weird Mario doesn't have it, but Luigi and Dr.Mario do, making them more similar , which is weird.
I like those ideas, a lot actually. I wouldn't do the Down B tho, you can do the cape reflection with B when Ganondorf throws the electric energy ball I feel. Down B needs to be something powerful, as say the earthquake punch of Ocarina of Time, or what about the enormous dark energy charge up projectile ?
Overall his Ocarina of Time appearance had the most to work with, so I'd mostly base Ganondorf around that.
Also Ganondorf is consistently horrible as a competitive character for 3 games in a row, a Ganon transformation mechanic might actually not result in him being OP honestly.
I kinda already wanted Ganon when I saw him as a Boss in Ultimate, and I think they could really make him into a good fighter, if they shrink Ganon down a bit. Just make it a mechanic that works as a sort of "suicide" option, you can use it after taking 100% damage , but during the transformation you take serious damage. Ganondorf typically has awful recovery so it wouldn't even be OP by a longshot.
Ganondorf is pretty much always going to be a rubbish character in competitive play, as he's simply not designed for high level play. His whole niche is to min max power by sacrificing speed. So long as they stay true to that maxim he will never be high tier because it simply doesn't fit with high level play. Meanwhile, buff him any more (aside from specific weakness like projectile gimping which a reflector would solve) and you risk making him way too OP for casual play, which he borderline is already. In the hands of non professional Smash players (ie 90+% of the people who play the game) Ultimate Ganondorf is basically an instant win since casual players just aren't skilled enough to capitalize on his weaknesses. A character doesn't need to be top tier in the world championships to be a well designed character.
I agree with a lot here. At least OOT Link as a Echo to Link would've been warranted, would fit amazingly well with the designs of Sheik, Ganondorf and Young Link of course.
Zelda's most iconic abilities indeed are the Light Arrows and sealing away of evil, so that can stay, I'd straight up copy Byleth's Failnaught to give Zelda the Light Arrows in her moveset.
The Mario Tornado indeed is the best choice for a Down B after all. It's weird Mario doesn't have it, but Luigi and Dr.Mario do, making them more similar , which is weird.
I like those ideas, a lot actually. I wouldn't do the Down B tho, you can do the cape reflection with B when Ganondorf throws the electric energy ball I feel. Down B needs to be something powerful, as say the earthquake punch of Ocarina of Time, or what about the enormous dark energy charge up projectile ?
Overall his Ocarina of Time appearance had the most to work with, so I'd mostly base Ganondorf around that.
Also Ganondorf is consistently horrible as a competitive character for 3 games in a row, a Ganon transformation mechanic might actually not result in him being OP honestly.
I kinda already wanted Ganon when I saw him as a Boss in Ultimate, and I think they could really make him into a good fighter, if they shrink Ganon down a bit. Just make it a mechanic that works as a sort of "suicide" option, you can use it after taking 100% damage , but during the transformation you take serious damage. Ganondorf typically has awful recovery so it wouldn't even be OP by a longshot.
Yeah, I was debating about the down special and what it should be. I was currently thinking the Earthquake Punch would make for a cool down aerial attack that he dives downwards similar to characters like Sephiroth.
So I decided to make some substantial changes to my prediction roster. Thanks to the feedback of both dream1ng
and @SPEN18 , I was able to make some important changes in order to make what I believe to be my finalized version of my prediction roster (at least, for the time being.)
After reading over both of your responses a few days back, I began taking your suggestions and comments into consideration and planned out what I could do to address this feedback, which quickly resulted in the following plan of action: I would take two of the five third-parties I chose for the base game, and move them to the DLC lineup, at the expense of getting rid of two of the characters I already had in said lineup.
Not only would this reduce the number of third-parties in the base game to a more manageable number of three, but it would also open up two more first-party slots, which I could easily dedicate them towards being characters that would get added to the roster solely on popular request.
I will put my explanations inside multiple spoiler tags for the sake of convenience, and to make my post less bloat-y.
Of course, planning this all out in my head would basically be a three-step process here. First, I would have to decide which two of the five third-party newcomers in the base roster would work just as well as DLC, and I feel that I have a good answer to that question; I could easily repurpose Zero and Ryu Hayabusa as DLC fighters, thanks to both characters having the easy potential to bring a respectable amount of content with them.
Zero would be able to pull content from both the MMX and MMZ series (and knowing Capcom's track record, they would be more than eager to pour in a lot of content for newcomers), while Ryu Hayabusa would be able to have a Terry situation, where he brings in content from both his home series of Ninja Gaiden, and also content from Dead or Alive, which he appears as a major recurring character in.
This would leave Bomberman, Arle, and Iori as the three third-party newcomers in Smash 6's base game, which I feel is a perfectly acceptable lineup; Bomberman would be the biggest of the three, being a long-standing request for Smash not unlike Mega Man before him, Arle would be a character that would please mainly the Japanese crowd while not being totally unheard of elsewhere, Iori would be the one character I could see Sakurai picking out completely for himself while also appealing further to SNK and fighting game fans in the process, and overall, all three would be characters I feel that could be put in the base product without being too costly, especially in Iori's case.
However, moving Zero and Ryu to DLC would require the removal of some of my other picks to free up space. I wouldn't consider my removed choices here to be characters I suddenly find unreasonable to be in Smash, especially since we obviously have no idea how the next game will handle DLC length-wise, but you can consider these characters I booted here to be two "honorable mentions" if Smash 6 at least has as many DLC newcomers as Ultimate did (11-12).
The first choice I made was to replace Dante with Zero. Easy enough, considering that both are Capcom characters, but with Zero also not having to worry about dealing with any Mature rating-related complications on top of being an easy way to expand the Mega Man series representation in Smash. The second decision, however, was a bit harder for me to make, but I ultimately chose to axe the second Microsoft DLC slot, on the basis of not wanting to have my prediction boil down to "they'll totally hit the exact same notes they did for Ultimate". I still think Doomguy has an edge over Chief and Crash when it comes to Microsoft's library of characters, but I don't mean this to say that I think those two are out of the running, either. Either way, axing this second slot is how I give Hayabusa some room in the DLC.
Now for the most tricky part, which would be finding two characters from Nintendo's cast that I feel could be added on nothing but popularity within the fanbase. Before I discuss the two I actually did pick, I'll go over some choices that I consider to be runner-ups in this department.
-Normally, Geno would instantly qualify for one of these slots, but alas, Geno isn't normal. After what happened in Ultimate, while Nintendo and Sakurai are likely very much aware of Geno demand, I feel that it's become clear that it's not worth trying to fish the character out of Square-Enix's depths when they have a lot more profitable options than him. It probably hurts some of you for me to say this, but I feel that this is the ugly truth for the character, which is a shame since Mario RPGs as a whole have become a dying species.
-Krystal was a semi-popular Brawl-era request, and she was actually considered for that game as well, but I feel that the popularity for the character trailed off a while ago--besides being an Assist Trophy in Ultimate, Krystal has had some negative stigmas attached to her, between being an easy target for people to make fun of when it comes to certain fandoms, and also being associated with some controversial entries in the Star Fox series (other than Star Fox Zero, which is its own can of worms). That, and I feel that she has perpetually lived in Wolf's shadow within the Smash community as well, since most fans seemed to be satisfied with him as the third Star Fox character in Brawl, and the outcry from him getting cut in Smash 4 eclipsed any outcry over Krystal not making the cut anyways, from what I remember seeing. This could potentially change, however, if the "3D action game remake" project Bandai-Namco is rumored to help Nintendo on turns out to be Star Fox Assault or something similar.
-Characters like Lyn and Hector have been names that have popped up frequently when it comes to more FE characters represented in Smash, but I feel that the hard truth is that unless a popular FE character could serve as an Echo or semi-clone to someone else on the roster, they're going to get passed up for whoever's the protagonist of the latest installment that Intelligent Systems is going to force on recommend to Sakurai.
-Ashley is a runner-up for similar reasons to Krystal, being an Assist Trophy character who has both a notable fandom and hatedom that I feel is overshadowed by something else that fans want more; in this case, I feel that the demand for Ashley has diminished in favor of the demand for more Wario Land-related content in Smash. Ever since Ultimate did barely anything to remedy this issue that people already had gripes about back in Smash 4, I feel that the want for Ashley has subsided for people just wanting anything substantial for the Land side of Wario's series, and I honestly can't blame them. I could probably see Captain Syrup rising over Ashley in the future if Smash 6 does nothing to remedy the Wario Land issue like Ultimate before it.
-Tom Nook is a weird case for me. There's no denying that he's a popular Animal Crossing character, but the one thing that stops me from adding him is Isabelle already being present on the roster. It would feel incredibly awkward if there were three characters that had the Villager framework, if you ask me, mainly just because unlike Fox or Marth's cases, I feel that the Villager should remain relatively unique on the roster, and adding in a second semi-clone for him would make him no longer really stand out in my eyes. Maybe you could cycle Isabelle out for Nook, but I feel that would be more effort than it would be worth doing, if you ask me.
-Out of all of the characters I've listed here, I feel that Bandanna Waddle Dee is easily the "third place" runner-up here. He has a lot going for him that under normal circumstances would make me have easily given him a slot, but under the current circumstances, he's in a weird limbo thanks to Sakurai being very peculiar about how he handles Kirby's content in Smash. It's been discussed to death, but the fact that the Kumazaki era of Kirby games has gotten table scraps so far in Smash makes me feel that the bar for Bandanna Dee is artifically a lot higher than it would be normally. I would love to be proven wrong, but as of now, I doubt Sakurai will budge much with how he treats Kirby content he didn't make or supervise.
As for all the characters from smaller series that I'm not listing here, I feel that the IP revival slot is pretty much dedicated for one of these types of picks. On a similar note, while I like the idea of Diskun too much to get rid of him from my prediction, you can treat his slot as a general "weird legacy character" slot if you'd like.
So, after reviewing all of the major Nintendo universes in Smash, I settled on two characters that I felt were prime-fit for being included solely on popularity; I have decided to choose Waluigi and Porky Minch as these two characters.
-When it came to answering the question "After Ridley and K. Rool, who was the one Nintendo character that had the most buzz about not being in Smash?", it's clear that despite the controversy and backlash that ensued afterwards, Waluigi was undoubtedly the one snub from Ultimate that generated the most buzz on the Internet. The months following Ultimate's reveal, it was practically impossible to go a single day without someone mentioning or joking about Waluigi being excluded from the playable roster (culminating in the Piranha Plant reveal in November leaving everyone confused and bewildered), and this is on top of the character having been a popular in-joke in Nintendo's fanbase for both the years prior and the years following this. Even if Geno took up the mantle of being the hot topic among Mario characters afterwards, his own disconfirmation still had nowhere near the same ripple effect as Waluigi's did. Now, some may wonder why I've put Waluigi on here while excluding Bandanna Waddle Dee, even if it seems that Sakurai is prejudiced against both characters; That's because while I feel that Sakurai is somewhat reluctant to put Waluigi in at this point, especially after witnessing some of the snub backlash himself, I feel that it's still more likely for him to cave in and put Waluigi on the roster, than to give Kirby more representation from the games he didn't direct, sadly enough. Overall, I feel that Waluigi has become the new Ridley, being a character who seems to be arbitrarily excluded from a roster, but has the demand to power through said exclusion anyway.
-Continuing off this metaphor, we have Porky Minch as the new K. Rool in a sense, being a villain who hasn't seen much action in quite a long while, but is still a popular Smash request in spite of this fact. Throughout my time in the Ultimate speculation scene, one of the few first-party names that I kept hearing get brought up in discussion no matter the circumstances was Porky, and that was very much thanks to his peculiar absence in Ultimate, with there not being a lot of Mother antagonist-related Spirits in-game, including Porky himself, and the tipping point here was the Absolutely Safe Capsule spirit using the "empty" sprite for its artwork. In hindsight, I imagine that Porky's boss fight from Brawl was intended to return for Ultimate, but it couldn't make the cut in time, and that's why he is absent as a Spirit. However, said absence made him a very recurring, popular request for Ultimate's DLC, and these requests kept persisting even to the very end of the second Fighter's Pass. The EarthBound/Mother fandom is a very dedicated fandom, and their efforts have worked in their favor a lot in the past (at least, when it comes to everything but getting Mother 3 localized). So in conclusion, I imagine that things can once again work in their favor for Smash 6, and I feel that Porky is thus one of the likeliest "popular demand" candidates for the next installment.
Now that I have made and explained all my changes I have decided to make to my prediction roster, here is what the roster itself looks like now!
As with last time, please feel free to give me any further feedback on my roster, and especially the new changes I have made to it.
I like most of the changes you made, and if you want, I can give a more thorough feedback to your selection. I don't have much to say about Octoling, Waluigi, the Pokemon, revived IP, or Howard, I agree with all of those inclusions. Also, I think Toy Link is a nice update to the secondary, smaller Links, and Diskun, as a character people go "eh" about actually fits the criteria for a Sakurai being Sakurai choice well.
Edit: I've actually come down a bit more on Diskun, thinking on it more. Even as a wtf addition, Japanese-only characters are avoided in the selection process. I think he fits in terms of being an idiosyncratically Sakurai choice, but in terms of regionalized obscurity I think he misses the boat. Also in part because the surprise characters also seem to be valued on being well-known despite unanticipated, if WFT, DHD and PP are anything to go by.
Now, Impa I don't have a problem with in theory as much as I'm concerned all her popular appearances are from spin-offs. If you're making this roster, that wouldn't be a problem. With Sakurai, that might be. I just worry the Hyrule Warriors stuff would be overlooked, as spin-off stuff usually is. And then in terms of the mainline appearances, the feasible incarnations are now fairly old. I think she should get in, I just question the actual likelihood of it happening at this junction.
With Raven Beak, I can't imagine he gets in unless he recurs. Which would be... tricky. I agree over his importance to his series, but plotline importance isn't really that much of a factor for inclusion so much as frequency of attendance. A one-off Metroid character is going to have a tough go to get in, I don't see it as overly realistic. Past that, at this point, Metroid is also not in the place where additional representation will likely be urgent.
I think the most glaringly questionable addition though is Porky. He's really not the K. Rool, because he's really not that popular. He's certainly not popular enough to be included due to popularity. A lot of his popularity this time stemmed simply from the fact people thought he still had a chance because he didn't have a true spirit of himself. If you're going to carve out spots for popular inclusions, those inclusions can't be somewhere in the twenties or thirties in terms of popularity. It just doesn't make sense, it's passing over so many more popular characters, including all six of the characters you otherwise considered, only Hector aside.
Then I think Bomberman is a good choice for a base third-party, Arle... is within the realm of possibility, and Iori... frankly I don't think he'd get priority over all the third-parties that could be added. I think you'd have to be looking at things through the lens of deliberately wanting to give SNK another slot to land on him, which isn't really how it works, but... there are less likely outcomes on the roster, so I can live with it.
For the DLC, I think most of it is good. If not a bit safe. Don't get me wrong, they're characters people would like to see, but there's almost too much "this is what the fans want" for it to be realistic. Eggman, Zero, Crono, Hayabusa and Doom Slayer are all good choices, I just don't think we'd get them all at the absence of characters people didn't really entertain as much.
I do contend Noah being DLC though. By the time of the next Smash, XC3 is not going to be an upcoming title, it's going to be, probably, several years old. Him being DLC instead of base doesn't make sense, they wouldn't withhold a first-party character like that.
I notice you've also cut Joker and replaced him with "Atlus character". I don't think it would play out like that. Maybe he'd get cut for the newest Persona character, which I still kind of doubt, but I even more doubt him getting replaced by, like, Nahobino. Or any other Atlus IP; that's a bit like cutting Kazuya for Nightmare. So I would either reinstate him, replace the "Atlus" slot with a specifically Persona one, or add him back and add a SMT slot. Even though it just makes more sense to just specify it as Nahobino, because it doesn't need to be open-ended.
And then Kris. I get why you put the character there, but... there are just a number of more well-known indies to the point I can't imagine that'd be the first they'd choose to include. Even past ones from Undertale, characters like Shovel Knight and Cuphead are just a lot more prolific. That inclusion, frankly, seems a little biased.
Overall though it's a good selection. I would be happy with that roster. I think the biggest problem is Porky, who just... just isn't going to make it. Especially as the next K. Rool. Earthbound has had its day, and there are characters far more popular than him. Frankly it's lucky to have the amount of representation it already has. And also I'd put Noah in base, because timing-wise DLC doesn't make sense.
I haven’t delved a whole lot into speculation for the next Smash game so far. But I do have 2 points of curiosity about it that I’d like to bring up.
1 - I have heard a teensy bit of speculation that the next Nintendo Console will release in holiday of 2023. I’m not sure if I could see it happening then, but let’s just assume it’s true.
What would that mean for the release of the next Smash game? Ultimate’s DLC would have only been fully completed for two years at that point, but apparently Sakurai only took a short break after that DLC was done before getting started on his next project or so the story goes.
2 - If I have my information correct, then the mixed state of Ultimate’s online was more on Namco then on Nintendo. Either way Ultimate came out before Guilty Gear Strive released and started getting fighting game devs to notice the importance of rollback. So there is also that to consider.
But I hear that the director of Tekken is pretty stubborn on rollback so I can’t help but wonder what it means for the online play of the next Smash game if Namco is still involved.
That’s not to say Namco involvement means doom and gloom. There’s more to a game than online play and I don’t like the idea of assuming Namco would contribute nothing good just because of that. But I do wonder about it.
Honestly, that's part of the reason I hope Nintendo at least considers doing another Smash Ballot: keep in mind, that was what made them realize Ridley and King K. Rool were such popular requests, despite it being so obvious to Smash fans. Those types of characters could REALLY use a similar sort of push...
Honestly, that's part of the reason I hope Nintendo at least considers doing another Smash Ballot: keep in mind, that was what made them realize Ridley and King K. Rool were such popular requests, despite it being so obvious to Smash fans. Those types of characters could REALLY use a similar sort of push...
Pretty sure Sakurai said they're not doing this again lol
Even if they did, I'm not sure if Raven Beak would get enough votes. Once again none of those one-off Zelda characters had the same push/popularity K. Rool and Ridley had.
Pretty sure Sakurai said they're not doing this again lol
Even if they did, I'm not sure if Raven Beak would get enough votes. Once again none of those one-off Zelda characters had the same push/popularity K. Rool and Ridley had.
I know, but it doesn't stop us from toying with the idea, yeah? I mean, we just spent the past few days talking about 4th Party characters in Smash, so...
Honestly, that's part of the reason I hope Nintendo at least considers doing another Smash Ballot: keep in mind, that was what made them realize Ridley and King K. Rool were such popular requests, despite it being so obvious to Smash fans. Those types of characters could REALLY use a similar sort of push...
Do you really think Raven Beak is going to chart so high as to get included based on that? Those positions are typically reserved for the characters who place within the top, like, five, overall. Or cheat. Or have extenuating factors to offset lower placement like clone fodder or cheap/easy acquisition (for third-parties).
I think Raven Beak doesn't even make top ten, and will be challenged to retain the popularity he does have once MP4 and those characters become more real. Especially if one of them is Sylux.
I think Smash left quite an impact on me. Every time I see Nintendo references in the Kirby games, I immediately think of Smash. Even in the games before the Smash series started (Kirby Super Star and Dream Land 3). Kirby is really one series that truly has that Smash spirit in it.
Honestly, that's part of the reason I hope Nintendo at least considers doing another Smash Ballot: keep in mind, that was what made them realize Ridley and King K. Rool were such popular requests, despite it being so obvious to Smash fans. Those types of characters could REALLY use a similar sort of push...
King K. Rool, sure. Ridley though, no. Sakurai knew Ridley was a popular character and knew why he was wanted. Sakurai just felt that Ridley was more suited as a boss than a character. But Sakurai and Nintendo already knew even before the Smash Ballot, Ridley was a very notably requested character. Why do you think Ridley was the very first revealed character after Inkling and "Everyone is Here."?
Part of what I think helped Ridley was some of the characters getting design reboots to different designs rather than just the latest version, like how Zelda got her LttP/LBW design and Ganondorf his OoT design, so it may have allowed Sakurai to do whatever he wanted with Ridley's design to make him work for Smash Bros.
Yeah, honestly I think the ballot was more the straw the broke the camel's back when it came to Ridley. Sakurai attributes Ridley's inclusion to the ballot, but he had acknowledged the popularity several times beforehand. And at that point the demand had actually declined a bit due to Sakurai's comments supporting his infeasibility.
I think Ridley still performed fairly well and Sakurai had a "**** it, fine" moment, knowing that he'd still keep facing the fanbase until it happened.
While we’re on the subject of potential rosters for the next Smash game, I thought it would be fun to throw together a couple of Fighter’s passes of some of my favorite third party characters that I feel might actually have a chance to get in. While these characters may not be the most likely options, I think they all have valid reasons to be chosen:
For those that don’t know these characters based on the images, I’ll break each character down and why I feel they are at least worthy of consideration for Smash.
1) Rash, Pimple and Zitz (The Battletoads)
I’ve already said quite a lot about these guys but in short, they were the first characters that led to RARE’s breakout success and eventual relationship with Nintendo. Several people that worked on Battletoads helped create DKC.
2) Magus/Guile (Chrono Series)
Chrono Trigger is a beloved RPG on the SNES with a popular but somewhat controversial follow up on the PS1 in Chrono Cross. While Crono is the most likely and best representative of the first game, Magus can represent the series as a whole due to his connection with Guile.
3) Sarah Kerrigan (StarCraft)
StarCraft was the first game to popularize E Sports and competitive gaming as a whole. Kerrigan herself is a very iconic character and would add the first female villain to Smash as well as an RTS representation.
4) Fulgore (Killer Instinct)
Killer Instinct was basically Nintendo’s fighting game series before Smash Bros. was created. As I mentioned before, Nintendo and RARE had a very close relationship and Fulgore would be another great callback. There are also rumors of a new game in the works by Bandai-Namco.
5) Alphen and Shionne (Tales of Arise)
Lloyd has historically been the popular fan request from the Tales series in Smash but Tales of Arise has done a great job gaining mainstream popularity for the series, essentially making it equivalent to Persona 5. This duo also offers a very interesting dynamic between a close range fighter with recoil damage and a gunner with healing magic.
6) Zero (Mega Man X)
Probably the most generally popular of the whole group. He’s had both an assist trophy as well as a Mii outfit so not much more has to be said.
7) Bill Rizer/Lance Bean (Contra)
Another popular NES character. Contra was a huge part of my childhood and Bill offers a ton of potential for a very unique moveset. The soundtrack from the first game is among the most iconic in gaming.
Sora was the winner of the Smash ballot so I feel that a second Kingdom Hearts character wouldn’t feel out of place. Xemnas is my personal favorite but I think it would be cool to incorporate all three forms as a Pokémon Trainer style transformation character.
9) Jinx (League of Legends)
I admittedly knew basically nothing about this franchise before watching Arcane other than that it was extremely popular. Arcane was such an amazing show that it’s turned me into a fan of the series. I’d love to see either of the main characters, Vi or Jinx, but Jinx seems more generally popular.
10) Scorpion with Sub-Zero echo (Mortal Kombat)
Mortal Kombat is one of the most iconic video game franchises of all time. It’s biggest hurdle, which may prevent its inclusion, is its lack of presence in Japan due to the excessively violent nature of the recent games. The franchise has been proven to be able to remain popular while being kid friendly with original movie and cartoon series. I think we can add both characters if we base the movesets off the classic games and just change the specials.
11) Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors)
The Warriors franchise has been a huge part of gaming and Nintendo specifically. Four franchises in Smash have their own Warriors spinoff games and Fire Emblem Three Hopes will mark the fourth using Nintendo’s properties. I think Lu Bu is a great representative for Warriors as a whole since Dynasty Warriors started it all.
12) Illidan Stormrage (WarCraft)
WarCraft is one of the highest grossing franchises in all of gaming and has been extremely influential on the industry as a whole. It has even branched out into a very successful digital card game in Hearthstone and even had a Hollywood movie adaptation. There are a ton of great choices for characters including Arthas and Thrall but I went with Illidan partially due to personal preference and partially for his unique weapons and agility that lends itself well to a game like Smash.
So I decided to make some substantial changes to my prediction roster. Thanks to the feedback of both dream1ng
and @SPEN18 , I was able to make some important changes in order to make what I believe to be my finalized version of my prediction roster (at least, for the time being.)
After reading over both of your responses a few days back, I began taking your suggestions and comments into consideration and planned out what I could do to address this feedback, which quickly resulted in the following plan of action: I would take two of the five third-parties I chose for the base game, and move them to the DLC lineup, at the expense of getting rid of two of the characters I already had in said lineup.
Not only would this reduce the number of third-parties in the base game to a more manageable number of three, but it would also open up two more first-party slots, which I could easily dedicate them towards being characters that would get added to the roster solely on popular request.
I will put my explanations inside multiple spoiler tags for the sake of convenience, and to make my post less bloat-y.
Of course, planning this all out in my head would basically be a three-step process here. First, I would have to decide which two of the five third-party newcomers in the base roster would work just as well as DLC, and I feel that I have a good answer to that question; I could easily repurpose Zero and Ryu Hayabusa as DLC fighters, thanks to both characters having the easy potential to bring a respectable amount of content with them.
Zero would be able to pull content from both the MMX and MMZ series (and knowing Capcom's track record, they would be more than eager to pour in a lot of content for newcomers), while Ryu Hayabusa would be able to have a Terry situation, where he brings in content from both his home series of Ninja Gaiden, and also content from Dead or Alive, which he appears as a major recurring character in.
This would leave Bomberman, Arle, and Iori as the three third-party newcomers in Smash 6's base game, which I feel is a perfectly acceptable lineup; Bomberman would be the biggest of the three, being a long-standing request for Smash not unlike Mega Man before him, Arle would be a character that would please mainly the Japanese crowd while not being totally unheard of elsewhere, Iori would be the one character I could see Sakurai picking out completely for himself while also appealing further to SNK and fighting game fans in the process, and overall, all three would be characters I feel that could be put in the base product without being too costly, especially in Iori's case.
However, moving Zero and Ryu to DLC would require the removal of some of my other picks to free up space. I wouldn't consider my removed choices here to be characters I suddenly find unreasonable to be in Smash, especially since we obviously have no idea how the next game will handle DLC length-wise, but you can consider these characters I booted here to be two "honorable mentions" if Smash 6 at least has as many DLC newcomers as Ultimate did (11-12).
The first choice I made was to replace Dante with Zero. Easy enough, considering that both are Capcom characters, but with Zero also not having to worry about dealing with any Mature rating-related complications on top of being an easy way to expand the Mega Man series representation in Smash. The second decision, however, was a bit harder for me to make, but I ultimately chose to axe the second Microsoft DLC slot, on the basis of not wanting to have my prediction boil down to "they'll totally hit the exact same notes they did for Ultimate". I still think Doomguy has an edge over Chief and Crash when it comes to Microsoft's library of characters, but I don't mean this to say that I think those two are out of the running, either. Either way, axing this second slot is how I give Hayabusa some room in the DLC.
Now for the most tricky part, which would be finding two characters from Nintendo's cast that I feel could be added on nothing but popularity within the fanbase. Before I discuss the two I actually did pick, I'll go over some choices that I consider to be runner-ups in this department.
-Normally, Geno would instantly qualify for one of these slots, but alas, Geno isn't normal. After what happened in Ultimate, while Nintendo and Sakurai are likely very much aware of Geno demand, I feel that it's become clear that it's not worth trying to fish the character out of Square-Enix's depths when they have a lot more profitable options than him. It probably hurts some of you for me to say this, but I feel that this is the ugly truth for the character, which is a shame since Mario RPGs as a whole have become a dying species.
-Krystal was a semi-popular Brawl-era request, and she was actually considered for that game as well, but I feel that the popularity for the character trailed off a while ago--besides being an Assist Trophy in Ultimate, Krystal has had some negative stigmas attached to her, between being an easy target for people to make fun of when it comes to certain fandoms, and also being associated with some controversial entries in the Star Fox series (other than Star Fox Zero, which is its own can of worms). That, and I feel that she has perpetually lived in Wolf's shadow within the Smash community as well, since most fans seemed to be satisfied with him as the third Star Fox character in Brawl, and the outcry from him getting cut in Smash 4 eclipsed any outcry over Krystal not making the cut anyways, from what I remember seeing. This could potentially change, however, if the "3D action game remake" project Bandai-Namco is rumored to help Nintendo on turns out to be Star Fox Assault or something similar.
-Characters like Lyn and Hector have been names that have popped up frequently when it comes to more FE characters represented in Smash, but I feel that the hard truth is that unless a popular FE character could serve as an Echo or semi-clone to someone else on the roster, they're going to get passed up for whoever's the protagonist of the latest installment that Intelligent Systems is going to force on recommend to Sakurai.
-Ashley is a runner-up for similar reasons to Krystal, being an Assist Trophy character who has both a notable fandom and hatedom that I feel is overshadowed by something else that fans want more; in this case, I feel that the demand for Ashley has diminished in favor of the demand for more Wario Land-related content in Smash. Ever since Ultimate did barely anything to remedy this issue that people already had gripes about back in Smash 4, I feel that the want for Ashley has subsided for people just wanting anything substantial for the Land side of Wario's series, and I honestly can't blame them. I could probably see Captain Syrup rising over Ashley in the future if Smash 6 does nothing to remedy the Wario Land issue like Ultimate before it.
-Tom Nook is a weird case for me. There's no denying that he's a popular Animal Crossing character, but the one thing that stops me from adding him is Isabelle already being present on the roster. It would feel incredibly awkward if there were three characters that had the Villager framework, if you ask me, mainly just because unlike Fox or Marth's cases, I feel that the Villager should remain relatively unique on the roster, and adding in a second semi-clone for him would make him no longer really stand out in my eyes. Maybe you could cycle Isabelle out for Nook, but I feel that would be more effort than it would be worth doing, if you ask me.
-Out of all of the characters I've listed here, I feel that Bandanna Waddle Dee is easily the "third place" runner-up here. He has a lot going for him that under normal circumstances would make me have easily given him a slot, but under the current circumstances, he's in a weird limbo thanks to Sakurai being very peculiar about how he handles Kirby's content in Smash. It's been discussed to death, but the fact that the Kumazaki era of Kirby games has gotten table scraps so far in Smash makes me feel that the bar for Bandanna Dee is artifically a lot higher than it would be normally. I would love to be proven wrong, but as of now, I doubt Sakurai will budge much with how he treats Kirby content he didn't make or supervise.
As for all the characters from smaller series that I'm not listing here, I feel that the IP revival slot is pretty much dedicated for one of these types of picks. On a similar note, while I like the idea of Diskun too much to get rid of him from my prediction, you can treat his slot as a general "weird legacy character" slot if you'd like.
So, after reviewing all of the major Nintendo universes in Smash, I settled on two characters that I felt were prime-fit for being included solely on popularity; I have decided to choose Waluigi and Porky Minch as these two characters.
-When it came to answering the question "After Ridley and K. Rool, who was the one Nintendo character that had the most buzz about not being in Smash?", it's clear that despite the controversy and backlash that ensued afterwards, Waluigi was undoubtedly the one snub from Ultimate that generated the most buzz on the Internet. The months following Ultimate's reveal, it was practically impossible to go a single day without someone mentioning or joking about Waluigi being excluded from the playable roster (culminating in the Piranha Plant reveal in November leaving everyone confused and bewildered), and this is on top of the character having been a popular in-joke in Nintendo's fanbase for both the years prior and the years following this. Even if Geno took up the mantle of being the hot topic among Mario characters afterwards, his own disconfirmation still had nowhere near the same ripple effect as Waluigi's did. Now, some may wonder why I've put Waluigi on here while excluding Bandanna Waddle Dee, even if it seems that Sakurai is prejudiced against both characters; That's because while I feel that Sakurai is somewhat reluctant to put Waluigi in at this point, especially after witnessing some of the snub backlash himself, I feel that it's still more likely for him to cave in and put Waluigi on the roster, than to give Kirby more representation from the games he didn't direct, sadly enough. Overall, I feel that Waluigi has become the new Ridley, being a character who seems to be arbitrarily excluded from a roster, but has the demand to power through said exclusion anyway.
-Continuing off this metaphor, we have Porky Minch as the new K. Rool in a sense, being a villain who hasn't seen much action in quite a long while, but is still a popular Smash request in spite of this fact. Throughout my time in the Ultimate speculation scene, one of the few first-party names that I kept hearing get brought up in discussion no matter the circumstances was Porky, and that was very much thanks to his peculiar absence in Ultimate, with there not being a lot of Mother antagonist-related Spirits in-game, including Porky himself, and the tipping point here was the Absolutely Safe Capsule spirit using the "empty" sprite for its artwork. In hindsight, I imagine that Porky's boss fight from Brawl was intended to return for Ultimate, but it couldn't make the cut in time, and that's why he is absent as a Spirit. However, said absence made him a very recurring, popular request for Ultimate's DLC, and these requests kept persisting even to the very end of the second Fighter's Pass. The EarthBound/Mother fandom is a very dedicated fandom, and their efforts have worked in their favor a lot in the past (at least, when it comes to everything but getting Mother 3 localized). So in conclusion, I imagine that things can once again work in their favor for Smash 6, and I feel that Porky is thus one of the likeliest "popular demand" candidates for the next installment.
Now that I have made and explained all my changes I have decided to make to my prediction roster, here is what the roster itself looks like now!
As with last time, please feel free to give me any further feedback on my roster, and especially the new changes I have made to it.
I really like this roster, but I do have a couple of recommendations:
-Incineroar being a base game character and Greninja being a DLC character seems strange. Greninja is the most popular Pokemon period (if the 2021 poll is to be believed), while Incineroar isn't even the most popular starter in his generation. While I imagine you moved Greninja to DLC to have a Wii U/3DS newcomer as DLC, I think it would be better to keep him in the roster and move Incineroar to DLC or (if you really want to keep the "one DLC veteran per previous Smash entry" theme) add Corrin instead.
-Impa, Raven Beak, and Porky seem like odd inclusions. While Impa is an active combat character in the spin-offs, she's either an old woman with no combat abilities or a retainer we see little of in the mainline entries. While I understand wanting to cut Sheik to add a character that fills a similar role and has more appearances in the Zelda series, I think Sheik is enough of a Smash staple to justify keeping her in the game. Likewise, Raven Beak is likely just a one-off Metroid character in the vein of the hunters from Prime 3 and Hunters. Porky would be cool, but he doesn't have the fan demand to justify being another K. Rool.
-Noah and Iori should be swapped. I don't think there's any reason to keep Noah as a DLC character when Xenoblade 3 is releasing later this year and this game will presumably be releasing in the future. Likewise, Iori seems more suited to be a DLC character when you consider that 5 of the 6 fighting game characters we've gotten have been DLC (and the one that wasn't DLC didn't have any unique mechanics that Ryu didn't) and DLC fighters are usually the ones with expansive, unique mechanics.
-I think you should consider adding Bandana Waddle Dee and Crash Bandicoot as base game newcomers. I know you said you opted to avoid BWD because Sakurai hasn't really touched Kirby content he didn't have a hand in creating, I think the merits of his inclusion are just too great to ignore at this point. He's the most popular Nintendo newcomer after Waluigi, he only continues to grow in importance in the Kirby series (now being Kirby's de-facto Luigi for two games now), and Kirby seems to be having a renaissance with Forgotten World. Likewise, Crash is a solid candidate for the most popular request during Ultimate's DLC period and him being owned by Microsoft now provides a direct bridge to his inclusion while leaving room for Doom Marine as Microsoft's DLC character.
-I also think you should consider keeping Joker and Roy/Chrom. I understand Roy and Chrom are being out-prioritized by more unique Fire Emblem characters and Joker is presumably being out-prioritized by a more modern Atlus character, but these characters have made such a splash among Ultimate's player base that their absence would definitely be felt.
I do have one controversial opinion that probably separates me from most other RARE fans. Out of all major Rare characters, Conker is the one I want in Smash the least. I personally feel he doesn’t offer as much variety when we already have Banjo and he wouldn’t really be able to carry over his vulgarity that made him popular. RARE made a lot more than just platformers and it would be kind of a disappointment to me to get another N64 3D platforming mascot as RARE’s only other character. On top of that, I was never really a huge fan of the character to begin with and the Battletoads and Killer Instinct are some of my favorites of all time. Joanna Dark would also be a really great and unique addition with all the cool guns from Perfect Dark.
That is just my personal opinion though and I realize I’m in the minority. I’m not trying to say that Conker fans are wrong for wanting him over other characters. I’m just explaining why he doesn’t personally interest me that much as a Smash character until we get a few other RARE characters first.
Yeah, that’s what I’m getting at. Toning Conker down almost defeats the whole reason he was created in the first place. Most other characters can be toned down fine and still keep their core character but Conker loses most of what made him stand out. That said, I’m sure he could still have some amount of edge, even in an E rated game, but would his fans be satisfied if he was toned down to that level? I’ve never been a huge fan of the character in the first place so I’m not the best person to answer that question.
So my personal issue with Conker in Smash is even if everything did somehow fall into place and they got it just right where people were happy with his attitude while keeping with the E rating, he’s still another 3D N64 platforming mascot at the end of the day. It seems like a lot of trouble for less variety when we could just have the Battletoads, Fulgore, or Joanna Dark with no need for any censoring and would represent completely different genres or console generations in the case of BT and KI.
I have to say this take is completely ridiculous and laughable. Anyone who actually played BFD knows vulgarity was never even a key factor to Conker's personality like at all, in fact he always avoided any M-rated profanity in his dialogues and usually tried to keep things polite whenever a character was being offensive to him. With real vulgar characters like Bayonetta being in the game with no problem, I really have to laugh at this kind of argument still being a thing.
As for variety, Bad Fur Day has a lot incorporated into it that makes it much more than just another platformer and its concept, story, levels and mechanics are far too different from Banjo-Kazooie's to be even considered similar. Besides Conker is like Rare's second poster boy and was a huge part during the Nintendo and Rare partnership era, so it's honestly hard to imagine a second rare rep that's not him.
I have to say this take is completely ridiculous and laughable. Anyone who actually played BFD knows vulgarity was never even a key factor to Conker's personality like at all, in fact he always avoided any M-rated profanity in his dialogues and usually tried to keep things polite whenever a character was being offensive to him. With real vulgar characters like Bayonetta being in the game with no problem, I really have to laugh at this kind of argument still being a thing.
As for variety, Bad Fur Day has a lot incorporated into it that makes it much more than just another platformer and its concept, story, levels and mechanics are far too different from Banjo-Kazooie's to be even considered similar. Besides Conker is like Rare's second poster boy and was a huge part during the Nintendo and Rare partnership era, so it's honestly hard to imagine a second rare rep that's not him.
First off, I did play Bad Fur Day when it first came out on the N64. I never beat the game but I got far enough to have a good idea of the tone of the game. While Conker himself may not have been as vulgar as a lot of the other characters, it was a major part of the appeal of the game. I’ve been a huge RARE fan from the NES through the end of the N64 and played a ton of their games. They were actually my favorite developer at the time. I don’t appreciate your accusation that I’ve never played the game just because I have a different opinion than you do.
Secondly, I wasn’t suggesting that Conker couldn’t have an original moveset. Like you said, Conker does have a lot of tools to pull from to separate himself from Banjo. I’m just saying that from a personal standpoint, he wouldn’t interest me at all. I just don’t like the character for starters. Secondly, even if he does have a unique moveset, he’s still another 3D platforming animal mascot from the N64 era. Smash already has a lot of platforming characters and a lot of people also want Crash who fits that mold. I feel like it is a lot more interesting to go with a genre that isn’t as heavily represented in Smash. If you count the DK characters, all of RARE’s characters in Smash are animal based platforming characters. I love DKC and Banjo was very deserving but I personally don’t think we need another of the same type of character when the company has so much more to offer.
Finally, it’s just my personal opinion, as I’ve stated multiple times. I don’t know why you’re getting so bent out of shape about it. I never attacked anyone for wanting the character. I was just trying to explain why I personally don’t have any interest in seeing him in Smash. I’m sorry if I offended you with what I said but I think Ihave a right to my opinion.
I’ve already said quite a lot about these guys but in short, they were the first characters that led to RARE’s breakout success and eventual relationship with Nintendo. Several people that worked on Battletoads helped create DKC.
Pretty sure it was Rare's deliberate pivot away from quantity of output to quality of output which lead to their investment in the very high-end graphical systems which allowed them to produce their pre-rendered 3D graphics which impressed Nintendo in a tech demo presented to them that was the basis of their relationship.
Pretty sure it was Rare's deliberate pivot away from quantity of output to quality of output which lead to their investment in the very high-end graphical systems which allowed them to produce their pre-rendered 3D graphics which impressed Nintendo in a tech demo presented to them that was the basis of their relationship.
I do think that had a big part of it as well. I recently watched a video on YouTube by the user Top Hat Gaming Man that gave a detailed history of the Battletoads games and that video made that point that it was their first breakout hit. Before that point, RARE mostly made many smaller games that weren’t as highly regarded like you said. I think the success of the Battletoads is partially what led RARE to that decision to shift their focus. It is fully possible that the video I watched wasn’t giving entirely accurate information but the timeline makes sense.
Basically, in a direct sense, I believe you are correct in your assessment but I think the success of the Battletoads is what helped RARE get to that point in the first place.
Sorry, I know I told Yamato that I’d stop talking about RARE and the Battletoads so I’ll just leave things there.
First off, I did play Bad Fur Day when it first came out on the N64. I never beat the game but I got far enough to have a good idea of the tone of the game. While Conker himself may not have been as vulgar as a lot of the other characters, it was a major part of the appeal of the game. I’ve been a huge RARE fan from the NES through the end of the N64 and played a ton of their games. They were actually my favorite developer at the time. I don’t appreciate your accusation that I’ve never played the game just because I have a different opinion than you do.
Secondly, I wasn’t suggesting that Conker couldn’t have an original moveset. Like you said, Conker does have a lot of tools to pull from to separate himself from Banjo. I’m just saying that from a personal standpoint, he wouldn’t interest me at all. I just don’t like the character for starters. Secondly, even if he does have a unique moveset, he’s still another 3D platforming animal mascot from the N64 era. Smash already has a lot of platforming characters and a lot of people also want Crash who fits that mold. I feel like it is a lot more interesting to go with a genre that isn’t as heavily represented in Smash. If you count the DK characters, all of RARE’s characters in Smash are animal based platforming characters. I love DKC and Banjo was very deserving but I personally don’t think we need another of the same type of character when the company has so much more to offer.
Finally, it’s just my personal opinion, as I’ve stated multiple times. I don’t know why you’re getting so bent out of shape about it. I never attacked anyone for wanting the character. I was just trying to explain why I personally don’t have any interest in seeing him in Smash. I’m sorry if I offended you with what I said but I think Ihave a right to my opinion.
There are many 3d platforming animal mascots from the N64 era, but it's kind of strange to act like Smash actually has a lot of them. It's really... just Banjo. If you include characters who existed in but predate the N64 era it's also the DK characters and... sort of Sonic.
But that's five characters in a roster pushing 90. That's nearly a 1:18 ratio and an average of a one-per-game addition. I think the fanbase being so loud over K. Rool, Banjo and Crash has given the impression these characters are more ubiquitous than they really are.
There are many 3d platforming animal mascots from the N64 era, but it's kind of strange to act like Smash actually has a lot of them. It's really... just Banjo. If you include characters who existed in but predate the N64 era it's also the DK characters and... sort of Sonic.
But that's five characters in a roster pushing 90. That's nearly a 1:18 ratio and an average of a one-per-game addition. I think the fanbase being so loud over K. Rool, Banjo and Crash has given the impression these characters are more ubiquitous than they really are.
Yeah, I was never even trying to make the argument that Conker should never get into Smash. I actually think he should get in at some point. My issue is mostly with RARE specifically. Like I said before, RARE is one of my favorite video game developers ever and so far their only representation in Smash is animal based platforming mascots. I have no problems with that since Donkey Kong Country 2 is one of my favorite games of all time and I love the DK series in general. Banjo Kazooie was also a ton of fun and was one of my favorite games on the N64.
All I was trying to say is that I would rather see one of their other genres represented first before we get another platforming mascot from them. Battletoads and Killer Instinct are two of my favorite franchises ever and are completely different than anything RARE already has in Smash. Perfect Dark was also an amazing game and Joanna Dark would show a completely different aspect of the company despite being another character that debuted on the N64. If I had my way, the Battletoads, Fulgore, Joanna Dark, and Conker would all be in Smash, it’s just that Conker is the lowest priority of those for me. I only really ever brought up Conker in the first place because he’s the only other RARE character I ever see getting any support from the Smash community and I feel like their other characters are under appreciated.
Finally, on the subject of Conker being RARE’s second poster boy, I don’t think that’s true anymore if it ever even was in the first place. Killer Instinct 2013 was a huge hit and is extremely highly regarded. People have been heavily requesting a new game for years now and Phil Spencer even came out and acknowledged how much support there was for the series and that he was aware how much people wanted a new game. Even Battletoads got a reboot last year and Rash has made guest appearances in Shovel Knight and Killer Instinct. There is also a new Perfect Dark game currently in development. Sea of Thieves is easily RARE’s most popular game at the moment but it doesn’t really have any standout characters I’m aware of. Conker hasn’t been relevant in years and the X-Box port of his game was relatively poorly received.
Conker was actually a huge commercial failure on the N64 despite receiving great critical reviews, only receiving 55,000 sales within its first month of release and quickly dropping off after that. Seeing as barely anyone bought the game, I don’t see how he could possibly be considered as RARE’s #2. I don’t like ever calling characters “bandwagon” characters but I do think most Smash fans vastly overrate Conker’s popularity while generally dismissing the rest of RARE’s characters.
The Battletoads reboot, on the other hand, while also considered a bit of a disappointment by many, has sold over one million copies within two months of release.
While we’re on the subject of potential rosters for the next Smash game, I thought it would be fun to throw together a couple of Fighter’s passes of some of my favorite third party characters that I feel might actually have a chance to get in.
