Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Wonder Smash]

But I do think it's kind of pointless to be discussing characters that they already said will not be in Smash. It's okay to just throw around ideas for fun and all that but treating it like it's a serious request like Nintendo has to consider it or something is pointless and, to be honest, downright annoying. It's a clear sign that those people may just need to move on from Smash.

 

[Quillion]

Change of topic then:

How many people here would like a thread dedicated to veteran changes and other non-newcomer speculation? I'd personally love a thread that is focused on Smash's other aspects than new fighters.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I'd say reserve the non-video game characters to those whose video game adaptations have eclipsed their actual origins.

Like Sam and Max or Turok?

 

[Gengar84]

Like Sam and Max or Turok?

I’d legitimately be hyped for Turok. Why go with Sam and Max over Spawn? (Assuming that I’m thinking of the right characters).

But I do think it's kind of pointless to be discussing characters that they already said will not be in Smash. It's okay to just throw around ideas for fun and all that but treating it like it's a serious request like Nintendo has to consider it or something is pointless and, to be honest, downright annoying. It's a clear sign that those people may just need to move on from Smash.

I don’t think anyone here is saying that Nintendo has to consider adding any non game characters. All I ever said was that I’m fine either way. I’m open to pretty much anything in Smash but I always try to gear my discussion towards game characters specifically unless the topic comes up of questionable eligibility.

Also, where do you draw the line about what characters are eligible and worth discussing or not? You’ve been pushing a LEGO character for the past few pages, which I have no issues with, but is highly contentious as to whether that qualifies as eligible. I think it’s a bit strange to get annoyed about people talking about other questionable characters (unless they’re using deliberate joke characters like Shrek or SpongeBob).

 

[Megadoomer]

I’d legitimately be hyped for Turok. Why go with Sam and Max over Spawn? (Assuming that I’m thinking of the right characters).

I don’t think anyone here is saying that Nintendo has to consider adding any non game characters. All I ever said was that I’m fine either way. I’m open to pretty much anything in Smash but I always try to gear my discussion towards game characters specifically unless the topic comes up of questionable eligibility.

By Sam & Max, I'm 99% sure they mean these two:

Not sure what Spawn has to do with them.

 

[Gengar84]

By Sam & Max, I'm 99% sure they mean these two:

Not sure what Spawn has to do with them.

Oh, my mistake. I was thinking of Sam and Twitch. They were two detectives from Spawn. I thought it was a bit odd that someone would randomly bring them up lol.

 

[Jotari]

No...they really aren't. Not in Castlevania's case. That version of Dracula is also a demon.



Oh, really? So what made you think I've never heard of that movie?



You're making a bunch of weird arguments but in the end, you can't deny that Castlevania's Dracula is their own version of the character. He has his own unique design, powers, and stories, just like Dragon Ball's Goku. Or the Goku from Yuyuki. It's all Sun Wukong but just different versions of him.

Over time, perhaps he has grown into his own character, in the same way Zeus grew into Jupiter, but no, not when the first Castlevannia game was made (and not to any great extent in most of his appearances). They just straight up used a literary villain rather than inventing their own. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they were absolutely using a preexisting character rather than inventing their own in a way entirely different from Toriyama and Goku.

I think it’s a bit silly to take these kinds of things so seriously. In the end, Sakurai and Nintendo will add whatever they want and no rule or technicality about whether a character is eligible or not is going to prevent them from adding a character if they want to badly enough. Sakurai has gone on record to say that Villager and Ridley wouldn’t work for Smash so he’s been known to change his mind in the past. We’re just here to have fun and speculate on who we’d like to see. I say whatever happens happens and it’s not worth stressing too much over who is technically eligible because those rules could change at any time.

That was really the point I was trying to make. Lucario is technically a movie character, but it'd be silly for someone to claim he shouldn't be in Smash because of that because he clearly does fit in Smash and any counter claim of "oh his series originated in games" has a counter claim of niche cases. There is no cut and dry rule against a character getting in (with the exception of license ownership, but Smash has such a good reputation now there are probably few companies who wouldn't be willing to let their characters play ball).

Which is why it's better to debate whether Sakurai SHOULD change his mind or not. I'd say reserve the non-video game characters to those whose video game adaptations have eclipsed their actual origins. That said, that just leaves an SMT character and The Witcher.

Well Parasite Eve too, though that IP is kind of dead last I heard.

 

[Gengar84]

Change of topic then:

How many people here would like a thread dedicated to veteran changes and other non-newcomer speculation? I'd personally love a thread that is focused on Smash's other aspects than new fighters.

That sounds like a fun idea. There are definitely a few ideas I have for some changes I’d like to see with some of the veteran fighters. I think a thread for that would be cool.

 

[SPEN18]

When it comes to debating the difference between "video game characters" and "non video game characters who appear in video games," restricting attention to Nintendo-owned characters appearing in Nintendo-published games simplifies things vastly.

There are really only a handful of special cases to be handled individually at that point, like Brain Age, Nintendogs, the Pokemon anime, and R.O.B.

While I hate to just boil everything down to "common sense," in this particular situation its use might be quite apt. Don't overthink technicalities like Lucario appearing in a movie as a blatant advertisement for his upcoming game appearance. It's not like characters appearing in a TV commercial before their game releases would cause us to consider them as "not originating from a video game."

 

[Gengar84]

When it comes to debating the difference between "video game characters" and "non video game characters who appear in video games," restricting attention to Nintendo-owned characters appearing in Nintendo-published games simplifies things vastly.

There are really only a handful of special cases to be handled individually at that point, like Brain Age, Nintendogs, the Pokemon anime, and R.O.B.

While I hate to just boil everything down to "common sense," in this particular situation its use might be quite apt. Don't overthink technicalities like Lucario appearing in a movie as a blatant advertisement for his upcoming game appearance. It's not like characters appearing in a TV commercial before their game releases would cause us to consider them as "not originating from a video game."

I’m of the opinion that as long as the character is owned or directly related with Nintendo, it shouldn’t have to specifically come from a video game in order to appear in Smash. ROB already follows this in that he’s more of a toy used to play games than a character from a game. I personally feel like Jessie and James, Captain N, and Nester should all fall into the same boat.

Obviously when you go beyond Nintendo things are different and there would have to be a drastic shift in the game in order to ever get a character like Goku or Batman so characters like those, while fun to talk about, shouldn’t really be taken seriously for now.

 

[Chuderz]

I see all the debate on 4th party characters using the tiny little rule bends here and there that stray away from the purist standard of "originated/debuted in a video product" to be pedantic and overall just pointless banter. I'd be fine with it if it was done right. Hello Kitty is a Japanese icon that has transcended into a global icon and a Kid Goku with GT characteristics (access to Super Saiyan 1, 2 & 3, his tail/powerpole + instant transmission) I think would be a fun exception but I wouldn't want it to be open season for just every shonen protagonist/Japanese cultural icon like Luffy/Naruto and Anpanman either. As much as I enjoy all of those other characters I'd still want a hardline drawn somewhere even in the case of a major exception like Goku.

The Pokemon anime examples aren't valid because it's a treasure trove of IP close to Nintendo and it still originates from a video game series.

Nintendogs are just dogs and the Brain Age guy is still associated with a video game and at the end of the day they're just AT with one also being a background stage element. Nothing major like a character. They give the game some extra personality which was obviously the intent.

ROB is kind of the odd glaring exception but it's at least a video game accessory with Nintendo legacy attached to it and it was supposed to be a left-field pick meant to surprise us in that way just like MR.G&W did. And just like G&W ROB is a tribute to that Gameboy creator guy (a super important figure within Nintendo) that tragically died getting hit by a car. They're both his creations so it's really honorable that they're both in Smash.

I think the space for 4th party platform fighters is really just now being experimented with. You have NASB (that will hopefully be given the second chance it deserves with a proper budget to capitalize on their established work) and also Multiversus is still happening. The space this genre isn't where I want it yet in regards to these 4th party characters (or Smash either for that matter) but it still looks very promising.

My dream competitor to Smash (with a legitimate comparable budget) is a Shonen Jump + other anime one done by Bamco. I really hope they've tossed the idea somewhat seriously because if they can overcome the design challenges it'd be a guaranteed hit and cherished addition to the video game canon.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Over time, perhaps he has grown into his own character, in the same way Zeus grew into Jupiter, but no, not when the first Castlevannia game was made (and not to any great extent in most of his appearances). They just straight up used a literary villain rather than inventing their own. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but they were absolutely using a preexisting character rather than inventing their own in a way entirely different from Toriyama and Goku.

Well, it was the first game in the series, so of course things were different back then before they evolved later on. Now they truly are more unique than before, showing that these particular versions are their characters.

I don’t think anyone here is saying that Nintendo has to consider adding any non game characters. All I ever said was that I’m fine either way. I’m open to pretty much anything in Smash but I always try to gear my discussion towards game characters specifically unless the topic comes up of questionable eligibility.

Also, where do you draw the line about what characters are eligible and worth discussing or not? You’ve been pushing a LEGO character for the past few pages, which I have no issues with, but is highly contentious as to whether that qualifies as eligible. I think it’s a bit strange to get annoyed about people talking about other questionable characters (unless they’re using deliberate joke characters like Shrek or SpongeBob).

The LEGO character I'm talking about originated from a game that was published by Nintendo, who also published the 3DS prequel. So I figured that with that, along with Nintendo's current collaboration with the LEGO Super Mario figures (which inspired the idea in the first place), I didn't think there would be anything questionable about it since he technically wouldn't be crossing any lines and has the things I thought people would like for a Smash character.

It should be really easy to understand but instead, people want to talk about things that are not even real issues. Like, how is LEGO being a toy-line an issue? Why would anybody care about that? As long as whatever kind of LEGO content make it in Smash is taken from the game, that's nothing to worry about.

Like I said earlier, it'd be different if I was talking about a character like Pepper Roni from LEGO Island. He also appeared on Nintendo consoles but unlike Chase, his games really had nothing to do with Nintendo directly, nor did they even start on Nintendo consoles. So I can understand if people question Pepper because he doesn't really have much of a reason to be in Smash but Chase? I thought he'd be far more acceptable with no problems at all (unless they don't want the character).

Though, in the end, it was just an idea I thought up. I never claimed Chase was my MW. Just thought he'd be a good character for Smash. I'm sure we've all played LEGO toys at least once in our lives and with Smash being centered around figures that "come to life", it seems really fitting for LEGO to be a part of that.

I just wish people would just say "I'm not interested" instead of coming up with these issues that are not really legitimate.

 

[SPEN18]

So I decided to make some substantial changes to my prediction roster. Thanks to the feedback of both @dream1ng and SPEN18 , I was able to make some important changes in order to make what I believe to be my finalized version of my prediction roster (at least, for the time being.)

After reading over both of your responses a few days back, I began taking your suggestions and comments into consideration and planned out what I could do to address this feedback, which quickly resulted in the following plan of action: I would take two of the five third-parties I chose for the base game, and move them to the DLC lineup, at the expense of getting rid of two of the characters I already had in said lineup.
Not only would this reduce the number of third-parties in the base game to a more manageable number of three, but it would also open up two more first-party slots, which I could easily dedicate them towards being characters that would get added to the roster solely on popular request.
I will put my explanations inside multiple spoiler tags for the sake of convenience, and to make my post less bloat-y.

Spoiler: Moving two of my third-party choices to the DLC section

Of course, planning this all out in my head would basically be a three-step process here. First, I would have to decide which two of the five third-party newcomers in the base roster would work just as well as DLC, and I feel that I have a good answer to that question; I could easily repurpose Zero and Ryu Hayabusa as DLC fighters, thanks to both characters having the easy potential to bring a respectable amount of content with them.
Zero would be able to pull content from both the MMX and MMZ series (and knowing Capcom's track record, they would be more than eager to pour in a lot of content for newcomers), while Ryu Hayabusa would be able to have a Terry situation, where he brings in content from both his home series of Ninja Gaiden, and also content from Dead or Alive, which he appears as a major recurring character in.
This would leave Bomberman, Arle, and Iori as the three third-party newcomers in Smash 6's base game, which I feel is a perfectly acceptable lineup; Bomberman would be the biggest of the three, being a long-standing request for Smash not unlike Mega Man before him, Arle would be a character that would please mainly the Japanese crowd while not being totally unheard of elsewhere, Iori would be the one character I could see Sakurai picking out completely for himself while also appealing further to SNK and fighting game fans in the process, and overall, all three would be characters I feel that could be put in the base product without being too costly, especially in Iori's case.

Spoiler: Cutting two of my original DLC slots

However, moving Zero and Ryu to DLC would require the removal of some of my other picks to free up space. I wouldn't consider my removed choices here to be characters I suddenly find unreasonable to be in Smash, especially since we obviously have no idea how the next game will handle DLC length-wise, but you can consider these characters I booted here to be two "honorable mentions" if Smash 6 at least has as many DLC newcomers as Ultimate did (11-12).
The first choice I made was to replace Dante with Zero. Easy enough, considering that both are Capcom characters, but with Zero also not having to worry about dealing with any Mature rating-related complications on top of being an easy way to expand the Mega Man series representation in Smash. The second decision, however, was a bit harder for me to make, but I ultimately chose to axe the second Microsoft DLC slot, on the basis of not wanting to have my prediction boil down to "they'll totally hit the exact same notes they did for Ultimate". I still think Doomguy has an edge over Chief and Crash when it comes to Microsoft's library of characters, but I don't mean this to say that I think those two are out of the running, either. Either way, axing this second slot is how I give Hayabusa some room in the DLC.

Spoiler: Choosing the two popular-demand first-parties

Now for the most tricky part, which would be finding two characters from Nintendo's cast that I feel could be added on nothing but popularity within the fanbase. Before I discuss the two I actually did pick, I'll go over some choices that I consider to be runner-ups in this department.
-Normally, Geno would instantly qualify for one of these slots, but alas, Geno isn't normal. After what happened in Ultimate, while Nintendo and Sakurai are likely very much aware of Geno demand, I feel that it's become clear that it's not worth trying to fish the character out of Square-Enix's depths when they have a lot more profitable options than him. It probably hurts some of you for me to say this, but I feel that this is the ugly truth for the character, which is a shame since Mario RPGs as a whole have become a dying species.
-Krystal was a semi-popular Brawl-era request, and she was actually considered for that game as well, but I feel that the popularity for the character trailed off a while ago--besides being an Assist Trophy in Ultimate, Krystal has had some negative stigmas attached to her, between being an easy target for people to make fun of when it comes to certain fandoms, and also being associated with some controversial entries in the Star Fox series (other than Star Fox Zero, which is its own can of worms). That, and I feel that she has perpetually lived in Wolf's shadow within the Smash community as well, since most fans seemed to be satisfied with him as the third Star Fox character in Brawl, and the outcry from him getting cut in Smash 4 eclipsed any outcry over Krystal not making the cut anyways, from what I remember seeing. This could potentially change, however, if the "3D action game remake" project Bandai-Namco is rumored to help Nintendo on turns out to be Star Fox Assault or something similar.
-Characters like Lyn and Hector have been names that have popped up frequently when it comes to more FE characters represented in Smash, but I feel that the hard truth is that unless a popular FE character could serve as an Echo or semi-clone to someone else on the roster, they're going to get passed up for whoever's the protagonist of the latest installment that Intelligent Systems is going to force on recommend to Sakurai.
-Ashley is a runner-up for similar reasons to Krystal, being an Assist Trophy character who has both a notable fandom and hatedom that I feel is overshadowed by something else that fans want more; in this case, I feel that the demand for Ashley has diminished in favor of the demand for more Wario Land-related content in Smash. Ever since Ultimate did barely anything to remedy this issue that people already had gripes about back in Smash 4, I feel that the want for Ashley has subsided for people just wanting anything substantial for the Land side of Wario's series, and I honestly can't blame them. I could probably see Captain Syrup rising over Ashley in the future if Smash 6 does nothing to remedy the Wario Land issue like Ultimate before it.
-Tom Nook is a weird case for me. There's no denying that he's a popular Animal Crossing character, but the one thing that stops me from adding him is Isabelle already being present on the roster. It would feel incredibly awkward if there were three characters that had the Villager framework, if you ask me, mainly just because unlike Fox or Marth's cases, I feel that the Villager should remain relatively unique on the roster, and adding in a second semi-clone for him would make him no longer really stand out in my eyes. Maybe you could cycle Isabelle out for Nook, but I feel that would be more effort than it would be worth doing, if you ask me.
-Out of all of the characters I've listed here, I feel that Bandanna Waddle Dee is easily the "third place" runner-up here. He has a lot going for him that under normal circumstances would make me have easily given him a slot, but under the current circumstances, he's in a weird limbo thanks to Sakurai being very peculiar about how he handles Kirby's content in Smash. It's been discussed to death, but the fact that the Kumazaki era of Kirby games has gotten table scraps so far in Smash makes me feel that the bar for Bandanna Dee is artifically a lot higher than it would be normally. I would love to be proven wrong, but as of now, I doubt Sakurai will budge much with how he treats Kirby content he didn't make or supervise.
As for all the characters from smaller series that I'm not listing here, I feel that the IP revival slot is pretty much dedicated for one of these types of picks. On a similar note, while I like the idea of Diskun too much to get rid of him from my prediction, you can treat his slot as a general "weird legacy character" slot if you'd like.

So, after reviewing all of the major Nintendo universes in Smash, I settled on two characters that I felt were prime-fit for being included solely on popularity; I have decided to choose Waluigi and Porky Minch as these two characters.
-When it came to answering the question "After Ridley and K. Rool, who was the one Nintendo character that had the most buzz about not being in Smash?", it's clear that despite the controversy and backlash that ensued afterwards, Waluigi was undoubtedly the one snub from Ultimate that generated the most buzz on the Internet. The months following Ultimate's reveal, it was practically impossible to go a single day without someone mentioning or joking about Waluigi being excluded from the playable roster (culminating in the Piranha Plant reveal in November leaving everyone confused and bewildered), and this is on top of the character having been a popular in-joke in Nintendo's fanbase for both the years prior and the years following this. Even if Geno took up the mantle of being the hot topic among Mario characters afterwards, his own disconfirmation still had nowhere near the same ripple effect as Waluigi's did. Now, some may wonder why I've put Waluigi on here while excluding Bandanna Waddle Dee, even if it seems that Sakurai is prejudiced against both characters; That's because while I feel that Sakurai is somewhat reluctant to put Waluigi in at this point, especially after witnessing some of the snub backlash himself, I feel that it's still more likely for him to cave in and put Waluigi on the roster, than to give Kirby more representation from the games he didn't direct, sadly enough. Overall, I feel that Waluigi has become the new Ridley, being a character who seems to be arbitrarily excluded from a roster, but has the demand to power through said exclusion anyway.
-Continuing off this metaphor, we have Porky Minch as the new K. Rool in a sense, being a villain who hasn't seen much action in quite a long while, but is still a popular Smash request in spite of this fact. Throughout my time in the Ultimate speculation scene, one of the few first-party names that I kept hearing get brought up in discussion no matter the circumstances was Porky, and that was very much thanks to his peculiar absence in Ultimate, with there not being a lot of Mother antagonist-related Spirits in-game, including Porky himself, and the tipping point here was the Absolutely Safe Capsule spirit using the "empty" sprite for its artwork. In hindsight, I imagine that Porky's boss fight from Brawl was intended to return for Ultimate, but it couldn't make the cut in time, and that's why he is absent as a Spirit. However, said absence made him a very recurring, popular request for Ultimate's DLC, and these requests kept persisting even to the very end of the second Fighter's Pass. The EarthBound/Mother fandom is a very dedicated fandom, and their efforts have worked in their favor a lot in the past (at least, when it comes to everything but getting Mother 3 localized). So in conclusion, I imagine that things can once again work in their favor for Smash 6, and I feel that Porky is thus one of the likeliest "popular demand" candidates for the next installment.

Now that I have made and explained all my changes I have decided to make to my prediction roster, here is what the roster itself looks like now!

As with last time, please feel free to give me any further feedback on my roster, and especially the new changes I have made to it.

Sorry for taking a while, but since you tagged me I'll try to make some suggestions, at least on the first party newcomers.

Octoling, Waluigi, Impa: all likely, maybe Impa slightly less so.

Toy Link: I think it's a reach; they're more likely to just retain Toon Link and shave Young Link, IMO.

Porky: he is definitely demanded, but in my estimation he's not high up enough to get in as a demand character unless there is also some strong bias towards him by the roster deciders. I think other than maybe Waluigi, Isaac is clear-cut the next "fan demand" first party, though of course there are plenty of others. I know you have Isaac in the "revived IP" spot, but he could do double-duty and fill both categories.

Raven Beak and Astral Chain: I think these will depend a lot on the timing of the project plan. If it is being done like right now, then both of these could get in. If the next Smash isn't until several years from now, then these two will have to hold their relevance for quite a while, which makes them less likely (especially when both have uncertain futures).

Pokemon: time is now for another Sinnoh rep if they ever decided to dip into oldgen mons. As for recent mons, well, I don't want to comment too heavily on characters that haven't even gotten a public reveal yet.

Revived IP: there are so many good options IMO. We'll have to see how it all shakes out, but I supported GS and AW especially even back in the Brawl days.

Diskun: well, it's a reach, but I know you're guessing at this to fill the "surprise character" quota so I won't be too critical.

Lastly, it depends on the timing but I think the next game is far enough away for Noah to be in base.

 

[osby]

Whatever this argument is about, the Dracula and Goku we'd get into Smash are the ones who originated from videogames.

However, Dracula isn't made up in any recent media of any sorts, he's an ancient myth. I think you can do with that whatever you want in whatever media you'd like. Nobody claims Big Foot or the Loch Ness monster as their intellectual property either.

Ancient myth?

He's a literary character based on a historical figure and his book is not that much older than a century.

 

[Yamat08]

Change of topic then:

How many people here would like a thread dedicated to veteran changes and other non-newcomer speculation? I'd personally love a thread that is focused on Smash's other aspects than new fighters.

I mean, I'd like to have threads in general, but it was decided that ALL speculation on the next Smash needs to all be crammed into this one thread. Which is why all conversation has been getting swayed in just one direction or another.

 

[Jotari]

Sorry for taking a while, but since you tagged me I'll try to make some suggestions, at least on the first party newcomers.

Octoling, Waluigi, Impa: all likely, maybe Impa slightly less so.

Toy Link: I think it's a reach; they're more likely to just retain Toon Link and shave Young Link, IMO.

Porky: he is definitely demanded, but in my estimation he's not high up enough to get in as a demand character unless there is also some strong bias towards him by the roster deciders. I think other than maybe Waluigi, Isaac is clear-cut the next "fan demand" first party, though of course there are plenty of others. I know you have Isaac in the "revived IP" spot, but he could do double-duty and fill both categories.

Raven Beak and Astral Chain: I think these will depend a lot on the timing of the project plan. If it is being done like right now, then both of these could get in. If the next Smash isn't until several years from now, then these two will have to hold their relevance for quite a while, which makes them less likely (especially when both have uncertain futures).

Pokemon: time is now for another Sinnoh rep if they ever decided to dip into oldgen mons. As for recent mons, well, I don't want to comment too heavily on characters that haven't even gotten a public reveal yet.

Revived IP: there are so many good options IMO. We'll have to see how it all shakes out, but I supported GS and AW especially even back in the Brawl days.

Diskun: well, it's a reach, but I know you're guessing at this to fill the "surprise character" quota so I won't be too critical.

Lastly, it depends on the timing but I think the next game is far enough away for Noah to be in base.

The character I want to see most is Pig beast Ganon. Both because it would further silence the crowd who still see smash Ganondorf has some kind of blasphemy and because a large heavy weight with a trident would be cool. Though suppose we already sort of have that niche with king Dedede, but differentiating them wouldn't be hard.

 

[Chuderz]

Dracula being in the game is just another one of those little bends. Sure he's directly based on a literary character but the iteration of the character is from a video game represented in Smash.

If they wanted to pursue LEGO then sure they could and it'd soften the impact on the video game character rule if the character was an original character that debuted in the video game. It'd still be the most major rule bend for a multitude of reasons. First LEGO is a toy brand. Second it has no real historical legacy with Nintendo with them only relatively recently collaborating though I guess that's at least a start. Lastly it's still 4th party (only 3rd party under the most charitable standards) and would be a playable character on top of both of these things and probably an expensive/restrictive one at that probably potentially being more difficult to include than both Sora and Steve.

If Nintendo and Sakurai both wanted it badly enough then they'd go for it just like if they wanted Shrek badly enough they could pursue that too.

I still think the only major loophole characters that qualify for the game as things currently stand are Digimon/Tamagotchi and Hatsune Miku. I think that's it. Characters from electronic software/hardware programs/devices can kind of step around the video game rule due to their similar/comparable mediums.

 

[Quillion]

The character I want to see most is Pig beast Canon. Both because it would further silence the crowd who still see smash Ganondorf has some kind of blasphemy and because a large heavy weight with a trident would be cool. Though suppose we already sort of have that niche with king Dedede, bht differentiating them wouldnt be hard.

Eh, Ganondorf would still stick out as a character who has diverged from where he began as a Smash character really. It's a standout problem for both Ganondorf and Zelda; every other character whose franchises have continued since Melee have had their abilities be logically expanded from the base at that time or they got a whole bunch of one-shot gimmick abilities that disappear by next game. Ganondorf and Zelda are the only two who have outright diverged: Ganondorf went from having mostly off-screen magic and occasional punching to... still having mostly off-screen magic and constant sword use. Zelda went from... not really fighting much to consistently slinging Light Arrows on the occasions she does fight. The two have developed in completely different directions than what Smash has maintained.

That said, I still much prefer Bowser's Melee and Brawl animations over the Smash 4-on animations, and that's why I've been making an effort to be fair to Ganondorf staying a puncher. I really don't give a **** about Bowser being more humanoid in Mario canon; Bowser's Melee/Brawl portrayal was a side of him that really fit the game.

And honestly, I'd just want to see Ganon and Dorf consolidated as one character if anything. Ganondorf is the default, Ganon is the skin. Trident replaces Sword in the Pig skin. And solve the Falcondorf/Canondorf debate by leaning in on giving him a sword normalset option selectable on the CSS only, not by in-game moveset swap. They should do the same for other characters when relevant. I still wouldn't want him to have a projectile though; I think there's value in him being a "classic heavy" with no zoning options; same with Bowser really.

Really, I think the "faithfulness crowd" is a bunch of--in Sakurai's words--children with no appreciation for intuitive moveset design; this is why they eat up the Smash 4-on newcomers despite them running against Sakurai's goal of making Smash intuitive and accessible to all skill levels.

Dracula being in the game is just another one of those little bends. Sure he's directly based on a literary character but the iteration of the character is from a video game represented in Smash.

If they wanted to pursue LEGO then sure they could and it'd soften the impact on the video game character rule if the character was an original character that debuted in the video game. It'd still be the most major rule bend for a multitude of reasons. First LEGO is a toy brand. Second it has no real historical legacy with Nintendo with them only relatively recently collaborating though I guess that's at least a start. Lastly it's third party and would be a playable character on top of both of these things and probably an expensive/restrictive one at that probably potentially being more difficult to include than both Sora and Steve.

If Nintendo and Sakurai both wanted it badly enough then they'd go for it just like if they wanted Shrek badly enough they could pursue that too.

I still think the only major loophole characters that qualify for the game as things currently stand are Digimon/Tamagotchi and Hatsune Miku. I think that's it. Characters from electronic software/hardware programs/devices can kind of step around the video game rule due to their similar/comparable mediums.

You know what, let's make this debate simpler: if someone from Shueisha showed up at Sora Ltd. during the development of the next Smash begging Sakurai to put Goku in Smash (a character who he has constantly used as an example in his exclusion of non-video game characters), giving him an offer worth millions of dollars to put him in, would Sakurai say yes?

All we can really say is that if Shueisha, Disney, WB, or what have you made that offer and Sakurai talked about rejecting it despite it being tempting, we would know whether the "spirit of the law" of Sakurai's opposition to licensed game characters is just not wanting to deal with licensing or really just wanting to celebrate video games alone.

Either way, I'd still say that licensed game characters that have undeniably eclipsed their original source material might still have a shot. There's actually a lot more than just Witcher and SMT, I'm sure.

 

[Jotari]

Dracula being in the game is just another one of those little bends. Sure he's directly based on a literary character but the iteration of the character is from a video game represented in Smash.

If they wanted to pursue LEGO then sure they could and it'd soften the impact on the video game character rule if the character was an original character that debuted in the video game. It'd still be the most major rule bend for a multitude of reasons. First LEGO is a toy brand. Second it has no real historical legacy with Nintendo with them only relatively recently collaborating though I guess that's at least a start. Lastly it's still 4th party (only 3rd party under the most charitable standards) and would be a playable character on top of both of these things and probably an expensive/restrictive one at that probably potentially being more difficult to include than both Sora and Steve.

If Nintendo and Sakurai both wanted it badly enough then they'd go for it just like if they wanted Shrek badly enough they could pursue that too.

I still think the only major loophole characters that qualify for the game as things currently stand are Digimon/Tamagotchi and Hatsune Miku. I think that's it. Characters from electronic software/hardware programs/devices can kind of step around the video game rule due to their similar/comparable mediums.

I'd be hard pressed to find a reason to not consider the likes of Digimon a computer game even from the get go.

Eh, Ganondorf would still stick out as a character who has diverged from where he began as a Smash character really. It's a standout problem for both Ganondorf and Zelda; every other character whose franchises have continued since Melee have had their abilities be logically expanded from the base at that time or they got a whole bunch of one-shot gimmick abilities that disappear by next game. Ganondorf and Zelda are the only two who have outright diverged: Ganondorf went from having mostly off-screen magic and occasional punching to... still having mostly off-screen magic and constant sword use. Zelda went from... not really fighting much to consistently slinging Light Arrows on the occasions she does fight. The two have developed in completely different directions than what Smash has maintained.

That said, I still much prefer Bowser's Melee and Brawl animations over the Smash 4-on animations, and that's why I've been making an effort to be fair to Ganondorf staying a puncher. I really don't give a **** about Bowser being more humanoid in Mario canon; Bowser's Melee/Brawl portrayal was a side of him that really fit the game.

And honestly, I'd just want to see Ganon and Dorf consolidated as one character if anything. Ganondorf is the default, Ganon is the skin. Trident replaces Sword in the Pig skin. And solve the Falcondorf/Canondorf debate by leaning in on giving him a sword normalset option selectable on the CSS only, not by in-game moveset swap. They should do the same for other characters when relevant. I still wouldn't want him to have a projectile though; I think there's value in him being a "classic heavy" with no zoning options; same with Bowser really.

Really, I think the "faithfulness crowd" is a bunch of--in Sakurai's words--children with no appreciation for intuitive moveset design; this is why they eat up the Smash 4-on newcomers despite them running against Sakurai's goal of making Smash intuitive and accessible to all skill levels.

True you'll never full silence people who have an itch to complain about, but I'd like Ganon for the sake of his own character too. We already have three Links and two Zeldas, a second Ganon is almost warranted in that light.

You know what, let's make this debate simpler: if someone from Shueisha showed up at Sora Ltd. during the development of the next Smash begging Sakurai to put Goku in Smash (a character who he has constantly used as an example in his exclusion of non-video game characters), giving him an offer worth millions of dollars to put him in, would Sakurai say yes?

All we can really say is that if Shueisha, Disney, WB, or what have you made that offer and Sakurai talked about rejecting it despite it being tempting, we would know whether the "spirit of the law" of Sakurai's opposition to licensed game characters is just not wanting to deal with licensing or really just wanting to celebrate video games alone.

Either way, I'd still say that licensed game characters that have undeniably eclipsed their original source material might still have a shot. There's actually a lot more than just Witcher and SMT, I'm sure.

cough cough Parasite Eve cough cough

 

[Wonder Smash]

First LEGO is a toy brand. Second it has no real historical legacy with Nintendo with them only relatively recently collaborating though I guess that's at least a start. Lastly it's still 4th party (only 3rd party under the most charitable standards) and would be a playable character on top of both of these things and probably an expensive/restrictive one at that probably potentially being more difficult to include than both Sora and Steve.

I don't see exactly what rules they'll be bending. Sakurai never said that a character's whole series has to originate as a video game. Just the character.

Also, just want to add that Nintendo published both LEGO City Undercover games, so that's another, more earlier part of their collaborating history they had together.

 

[Quillion]

True you'll never full silence people who have an itch to complain about, but I'd like Ganon for the sake of his own character too. We already have three Links and two Zeldas, a second Ganon is almost warranted in that light.

Here's the thing:

• If Ganon is added to the game designed like a Smash 4-on newcomer, he would feel like a dumping ground for moves that Ganondorf should have but has no room for. It's an issue I have with Isabelle and Dr. Mario already.
• If Ganon is added to the game designed like a 64/Melee newcomer, he would be a weapon-wielding "classic heavy". There wouldn't be much point to him since Ganondorf kind of is one at this point too.

I don't really see any way to win given this divide. And considering I actually would like to see the 64/Melee standard of moveset design be the norm again (hopefully with the Smash 4-on newcomers being ground-up revamped to that standard), that's why I would like to see Ganon consolidated into Ganondorf.

And really, there's probably a whole bunch of ways to make the 64/Melee newcomers more canon-compliant while keeping to that moveset standard and/or their established animations.

Of course, I'd still think the idea lwould be to give certain characters normalset options selectable on the CSS alongside your idea of totally different custom specials, though I still want them to take an "unfair" quality-over-quantity approach for that. And even in that ideal system I still want Ganon to be a skin for Dorf.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Sorry for taking a while, but since you tagged me I'll try to make some suggestions, at least on the first party newcomers.

Octoling, Waluigi, Impa: all likely, maybe Impa slightly less so.

Toy Link: I think it's a reach; they're more likely to just retain Toon Link and shave Young Link, IMO.

Porky: he is definitely demanded, but in my estimation he's not high up enough to get in as a demand character unless there is also some strong bias towards him by the roster deciders. I think other than maybe Waluigi, Isaac is clear-cut the next "fan demand" first party, though of course there are plenty of others. I know you have Isaac in the "revived IP" spot, but he could do double-duty and fill both categories.

Raven Beak and Astral Chain: I think these will depend a lot on the timing of the project plan. If it is being done like right now, then both of these could get in. If the next Smash isn't until several years from now, then these two will have to hold their relevance for quite a while, which makes them less likely (especially when both have uncertain futures).

Pokemon: time is now for another Sinnoh rep if they ever decided to dip into oldgen mons. As for recent mons, well, I don't want to comment too heavily on characters that haven't even gotten a public reveal yet.

Revived IP: there are so many good options IMO. We'll have to see how it all shakes out, but I supported GS and AW especially even back in the Brawl days.

Diskun: well, it's a reach, but I know you're guessing at this to fill the "surprise character" quota so I won't be too critical.

Lastly, it depends on the timing but I think the next game is far enough away for Noah to be in base.

Hey, it's no problem, I'm happy to recieve any kind of response here! I'll do my best to respond in return here.

Sounds all good with the first three characters, then. Though I wonder, do you think they would be more likely to go with Ocarina/Hyrule Warriors Impa, or Age of Calamity Impa? I feel like those two incarnations have the most fighting potential out of all of them, but I'm honestly not sure which one would be more likely.

Yeah I do agree that Toy Link is a bit of a stretch myself. As I mentioned in the post I made about my original version, I consider Toy and Toon to be interchangable at the moment. If Wind Waker HD gets a Switch port, I'm probably going to bite the bullet and cut Toy/Awakening Link for Toon Link.

For the moment, I'm mainly sticking to Porky not just because of the elimination process I mentioned, but also because I do actually feel there is some Mother bias present within Sakurai's "group" considering we've had things like the Mother series' songlist being entirely remixes, Lucas being prioritized over the other cut Brawl vets in Smash 4, and in general the amount of respect Itoi gets as a game developer, especially in Japan. I believe Sakurai showed up or otherwise did something for a Mother 30th anniversary thing back in 2019, but my memory is hazy on that. I will admit that it's also partially a gut feeling here, and before I really glossed over Nintendo's first-party options going into the next Smash, I actually felt Porky was at a disadvantage due to his exclusion from Ultimate. I guess it goes to show that when it comes to predictions, my opinions can change at the drop of a hat, admittedly.

For Raven Beak and Astral Chain, I will concede with saying that I'm making this prediction under the assumption that the next Smash is only a couple of years away, like 2024-2025 or so. They're definitely the most temporary of the 1st party newcomers on here, though I feel that Officer/Akira Howard would be higher priority thanks to being a new Nintendo IP (even if it's technically an acquisition from Platinum) and the possibility for a sequel being there. As for Raven Beak, if Metroid Prime 4 includes any key characters that rival Raven Beak in impact or popularity (especially if it's Sylux), then I'll weigh my options more carefully on that front.

I think that's a fair viewpoint for Pokemon. I could see something Legends Arceus-related possibly getting in due to that game's high praise, but considering The Pokemon Company revealed Scarlet and Violet not too long after, they're probably already intending to shove PLA out of the public spotlight. I won't make any real predictions on a Scarlet/Violet 'mon until we know more beyond just the base starters.

Agreed with Advance Wars and Golden Sun being two good frontrunners for the revived IP slot. I would've put a Rhythm Heaven character as well instead of Starfy on the image, but I feel that the franchise is currently in more of a weird limbo instead of being actually dead.

Yeah Diskun's an example of my bias showing here, lol. I do think that they'll probably go for another hardware-related legacy character this time, since Plant was kind of a dud to most fans. Though if they do go ahead and try another "common enemy" joke character in Smash 6, my vote would probably go to Shy Guy as a second Yoshi rep.
I'm still considering plotting out a Diskun moveset at some point, though.

As dream1ng mentioned a while back, if it takes a good long while for the next Smash to get announced, I may end up switching Noah and the Pokemon slots, with the Pokemon slot being repurposed as a placeholder for a Gen 10 mon.

Again, thanks for responding to all of this, I really appreciate it. Though I do want to ask, do you have any thoughts on the third-party choices I've made here, or not really?

 

[Jotari]

Here's the thing:

• If Ganon is added to the game designed like a Smash 4-on newcomer, he would feel like a dumping ground for moves that Ganondorf should have but has no room for. It's an issue I have with Isabelle and Dr. Mario already.
• If Ganon is added to the game designed like a 64/Melee newcomer, he would be a weapon-wielding "classic heavy". There wouldn't be much point to him since Ganondorf kind of is one at this point too.

I don't really see any way to win given this divide. And considering I actually would like to see the 64/Melee standard of moveset design be the norm again (hopefully with the Smash 4-on newcomers being ground-up revamped to that standard), that's why I would like to see Ganon consolidated into Ganondorf.

And really, there's probably a whole bunch of ways to make the 64/Melee newcomers more canon-compliant while keeping to that moveset standard and/or their established animations.

Of course, I'd still think the idea lwould be to give certain characters normalset options selectable on the CSS alongside your idea of totally different custom specials, though I still want them to take an "unfair" quality-over-quantity approach for that. And even in that ideal system I still want Ganon to be a skin for Dorf.

I don't see either of those issues as issues. If he's a dumping ground for Ganondorf moves then so what? Most of the moves people want to give Ganondorf are things Ganon is more famous for any way, so he dererves them, and they could be good and creative moves in Smash. And if he's a wespon wielding classic heavy, then so what? Sure, Ganondorf exists (and to a larger extent Dedede), but we can have more than one weapon based heavy weight in the game. Goodness knows half the roster is made of mid weight weapon wielders. Making Ganon different to Ganondorf wouldn't be difficult at all.

Hey, it's no problem, I'm happy to recieve any kind of response here! I'll do my best to respond in return here.

Sounds all good with the first three characters, then. Though I wonder, do you think they would be more likely to go with Ocarina/Hyrule Warriors Impa, or Age of Calamity Impa? I feel like those two incarnations have the most fighting potential out of all of them, but I'm honestly not sure which one would be more likely.

Yeah I do agree that Toy Link is a bit of a stretch myself. As I mentioned in the post I made about my original version, I consider Toy and Toon to be interchangable at the moment. If Wind Waker HD gets a Switch port, I'm probably going to bite the bullet and cut Toy/Awakening Link for Toon Link.

For the moment, I'm mainly sticking to Porky not just because of the elimination process I mentioned, but also because I do actually feel there is some Mother bias present within Sakurai's "group" considering we've had things like the Mother series' songlist being entirely remixes, Lucas being prioritized over the other cut Brawl vets in Smash 4, and in general the amount of respect Itoi gets as a game developer, especially in Japan. I believe Sakurai showed up or otherwise did something for a Mother 30th anniversary thing back in 2019, but my memory is hazy on that. I will admit that it's also partially a gut feeling here, and before I really glossed over Nintendo's first-party options going into the next Smash, I actually felt Porky was at a disadvantage due to his exclusion from Ultimate. I guess it goes to show that when it comes to predictions, my opinions can change at the drop of a hat, admittedly.

For Raven Beak and Astral Chain, I will concede with saying that I'm making this prediction under the assumption that the next Smash is only a couple of years away, like 2024-2025 or so. They're definitely the most temporary of the 1st party newcomers on here, though I feel that Officer/Akira Howard would be higher priority thanks to being a new Nintendo IP (even if it's technically an acquisition from Platinum) and the possibility for a sequel being there. As for Raven Beak, if Metroid Prime 4 includes any key characters that rival Raven Beak in impact or popularity (especially if it's Sylux), then I'll weigh my options more carefully on that front.

I think that's a fair viewpoint for Pokemon. I could see something Legends Arceus-related possibly getting in due to that game's high praise, but considering The Pokemon Company revealed Scarlet and Violet not too long after, they're probably already intending to shove PLA out of the public spotlight. I won't make any real predictions on a Scarlet/Violet 'mon until we know more beyond just the base starters.

Agreed with Advance Wars and Golden Sun being two good frontrunners for the revived IP slot. I would've put a Rhythm Heaven character as well instead of Starfy on the image, but I feel that the franchise is currently in more of a weird limbo instead of being actually dead.

Yeah Diskun's an example of my bias showing here, lol. I do think that they'll probably go for another hardware-related legacy character this time, since Plant was kind of a dud to most fans. Though if they do go ahead and try another "common enemy" joke character in Smash 6, my vote would probably go to Shy Guy as a second Yoshi rep.
I'm still considering plotting out a Diskun moveset at some point, though.

As dream1ng mentioned a while back, if it takes a good long while for the next Smash to get announced, I may end up switching Noah and the Pokemon slots, with the Pokemon slot being repurposed as a placeholder for a Gen 10 mon.

Again, thanks for responding to all of this, I really appreciate it. Though I do want to ask, do you have any thoughts on the third-party choices I've made here, or not really?

Claus was a pretty popular character pick back in the day for Mother and I still think he's a rather good choice. You already have a good portion of the work done by having Lucas's model and they could even share some attacks (though I wouldn't want him being an Echo as he still is very different, it'd more be a Villager Isabelle situation).

 

[Gengar84]

What I really want to see from Ganondorf is pretty controversial. Let me start off my saying that he’s my favorite character in Smash after Sephiroth and I’ve been a Ganondorf main since Melee. I actually really enjoy playing as him despite him being severely underpowered. With that said, I would personally completely remake the character from the ground up and give his Melee moveset to Black Shadow. I know he’s diverged from Falcon quite a bit since then but that should have never been the starting point and his whole moveset feels derivative. Even the sword moves they gave him in Ultimate were just taken from Cloud and Ike.

I think it’s important for a character as important as Ganondorf to have a completely original moveset with attacks that take direct inspiration from his games. Rather than solely basing his moveset off of a single incarnation of the character, I think it would be cool to pull from the character’s entire history as both Ganon and Ganondorf to create an amalgamation.

I see two potential options we could go with here. The first is that Ganon could be a transformation style character with Dorf playing the role of a dark mage and pulling mainly from Ocarina of Time while Ganon is a more heavy hitting close range fighter who wields a trident with some projectiles like K. Rool and Dedede. I think there is a lot of potential in this version as it helps to showcase both forms of the character very well. Ganondorf’s design and dark mage abilities from Ocarina of Time are not only some of the most iconic for the character but are also the best contrast to his much more savage pig form from the older games.

The second option is to forgo the transformation gimmick and just have Ganondorf utilize some attacks based on Ganon. With this version, Ganondorf could primarily use the trident from his Ganon form as well as some attacks like his fire bats and trident toss. He could still keep Dead Man’s Volley from OoT as well as other iconic moves from throughout the series with this option. Another potential idea we could go with for this option is going with Byleth’s route with using multiple weapons. Instead of only wielding a trident, he could use a different weapon for each directional input between the trident, dual swords from Wind Waker, and single sword from Twilight Princess.

 

[Perkilator]

And now, because I’m bored, here’s the bosses I would’ve picked for Ultimate:

• Master Hand
• Crazy Hand
• Galeem
• Dharkon
• Giga Bowser
• Ganon
• Mega Rayquaza
• Marx
• Death Egg Robot
• Dracula

 

[Quillion]

I don't see either of those issues as issues. If he's a dumping ground for Ganondorf moves then so what? Most of the moves people want to give Ganondorf are things Ganon is more famous for any way, so he dererves them, and they could be good and creative moves in Smash. And if he's a wespon wielding classic heavy, then so what? Sure, Ganondorf exists (and to a larger extent Dedede), but we can have more than one weapon based heavy weight in the game. Goodness knows half the roster is made of mid weight weapon wielders. Making Ganon different to Ganondorf wouldn't be difficult at all.

I'm pretty sure that statement operates on the logic of "Ganon and Ganondorf are effectively separate characters", and that's something I can't entirely agree with.

If we were talking about TP-on Ganon, which consistently has had Ganon be a silent charging beast and Ganondorf maintaining his love of swords from WW on (counting cyborg Calamity as the closest thing to Ganondorf here), then I would agree with that... with the caveat that you can't really make the bestial Ganon into something playable.

If we're talking about the Ganon from before that time, Ganon and Ganondorf don't really strike me as that different ability-wise. They're both physically strong, have powerful magic (with most feats being off-screen mind), and they use bladed weapons. Ganon may have his Blazing Bats, but I don't see that as something that Ganondorf can't plausibly do.

The issue is that people want the Ganon from LoZ1-OoX to be playable, the one who isn't that different from Ganondorf. That's why I say any effort to make them different would result in an Isabelle-style dumping ground for moves Ganondorf has no room for.

Really, part of my gripe with Smash 4-on moveset design is that Sora Ltd. clearly has started to come up with way more move ideas than there are inputs that fit them. That's probably why they have incorporated so many dumb solutions to this problem like dumping ground characters (Isabelle), an overload of projectile normals (Mega Man, Villager), command inputs (the later traditional FG characters), and loading several moves into one input in some way (Hero, Sora). Ganon being Ganondorf's dumping ground would just be an extension of this problem.

What I really want to see from Ganondorf is pretty controversial. Let me start off my saying that he’s my favorite character in Smash after Sephiroth and I’ve been a Ganondorf main since Melee. I actually really enjoy playing as him despite him being severely underpowered. With that said, I would personally completely remake the character from the ground up and give his Melee moveset to Black Shadow. I know he’s diverged from Falcon quite a bit since then but that should have never been the starting point and his whole moveset feels derivative. Even the sword moves they gave him in Ultimate were just taken from Cloud and Ike.

That's not controversial, that's an overly popular opinion (Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C).

I think it’s important for a character as important as Ganondorf to have a completely original moveset with attacks that take direct inspiration from his games. Rather than solely basing his moveset off of a single incarnation of the character, I think it would be cool to pull from the character’s entire history as both Ganon and Ganondorf to create an amalgamation.

And yet you don't want Zelda to regain her Light Arrow as a regular move despite her having diverged from her Smash debut as much as Ganondorf.

I see two potential options we could go with here. The first is that Ganon could be a transformation style character with Dorf playing the role of a dark mage and pulling mainly from Ocarina of Time while Ganon is a more heavy hitting close range fighter who wields a trident with some projectiles like K. Rool and Dedede. I think there is a lot of potential in this version as it helps to showcase both forms of the character very well. Ganondorf’s design and dark mage abilities from Ocarina of Time are not only some of the most iconic for the character but are also the best contrast to his much more savage pig form from the older games.

Again, older Ganon and Ganondorf aren't that different in capabilities. The savage pig is really TP-on bestial Ganon. Also, Ganondorf's magical powers are mostly off-screen, meaning you can't really make a moveset out of them; all you can really do is give him some kind of magical projectile whether it be the electric ball from OoT or the Blazing Bat, but no one wants to give Donkey Kong a barrel throw or his coconut gun.

The second option is to forgo the transformation gimmick and just have Ganondorf utilize some attacks based on Ganon. With this version, Ganondorf could primarily use the trident from his Ganon form as well as some attacks like his fire bats and trident toss. He could still keep Dead Man’s Volley from OoT as well as other iconic moves from throughout the series with this option. Another potential idea we could go with for this option is going with Byleth’s route with using multiple weapons. Instead of only wielding a trident, he could use a different weapon for each directional input between the trident, dual swords from Wind Waker, and single sword from Twilight Princess.

So he just becomes as chaotic and inconsistent animation-wise like several Smash 4-on newcomers.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Here's the thing:

• If Ganon is added to the game designed like a Smash 4-on newcomer, he would feel like a dumping ground for moves that Ganondorf should have but has no room for. It's an issue I have with Isabelle and Dr. Mario already.
• If Ganon is added to the game designed like a 64/Melee newcomer, he would be a weapon-wielding "classic heavy". There wouldn't be much point to him since Ganondorf kind of is one at this point too.

I don't really see any way to win given this divide. And considering I actually would like to see the 64/Melee standard of moveset design be the norm again (hopefully with the Smash 4-on newcomers being ground-up revamped to that standard), that's why I would like to see Ganon consolidated into Ganondorf.

And really, there's probably a whole bunch of ways to make the 64/Melee newcomers more canon-compliant while keeping to that moveset standard and/or their established animations.

Of course, I'd still think the idea lwould be to give certain characters normalset options selectable on the CSS alongside your idea of totally different custom specials, though I still want them to take an "unfair" quality-over-quantity approach for that. And even in that ideal system I still want Ganon to be a skin for Dorf.

Ganon being a skin for Ganondorf wouldn't work, and really the only way I could see Ganon be consolidated into Ganondorf is if they add some sort of Super Smash mechanic, allowing for more crazier and over-the-top sort of Special Attack / Final Smash fusions. Which is not a thing am against! I'd actually really love it.

I don't think Ganon being a newcomer in the Smash 4 and forward style would make him overly gimmicky either, I mean, I fail to see what exactly his gimmick would be. Remember Ridley and K.Rool, they also don't really have much going in the way of gimmicks, maybe K.Rool's belly armor (which is sort of forced, maybe even more of a weakness even) but they're pretty straightforward, and I imagine Ganon wouldn't be any different.

This is why am kind of excited seeing a new form of Ganon(dorf) with the sequel to Breath of the Wild, we haven't seen him function properly yet, but we know he's gonna be there in some way or form and probably more humanoid than Calamity Ganon was in Breath of the Wild. If there's gonna be a reboot of sorts, I could actually see Ganondorf being outrightely replaced for this new version of the potential humanoid "Calamity Ganondorf". Cause face it, the Zelda roster is a mess. Sheik being there despite not being a transformation anymore, two small versions of Link... I could easily see all of these characters gone, even Ganondorf (being replaced with a new Ganon of course) and if they'd return, maybe only as DLC.

From all the veteran franchises, I do think that the Zelda, Fire Emblem and Pokémon franchises are most likely to get serious reboots in their rosters in the case a thing like that even happens.

 

[Jotari]

I'm pretty sure that statement operates on the logic of "Ganon and Ganondorf are effectively separate characters", and that's something I can't entirely agree with.

If we were talking about TP-on Ganon, which consistently has had Ganon be a silent charging beast and Ganondorf maintaining his love of swords from WW on (counting cyborg Calamity as the closest thing to Ganondorf here), then I would agree with that... with the caveat that you can't really make the bestial Ganon into something playable.

If we're talking about the Ganon from before that time, Ganon and Ganondorf don't really strike me as that different ability-wise. They're both physically strong, have powerful magic (with most feats being off-screen mind), and they use bladed weapons. Ganon may have his Blazing Bats, but I don't see that as something that Ganondorf can't plausibly do.

The issue is that people want the Ganon from LoZ1-OoX to be playable, the one who isn't that different from Ganondorf. That's why I say any effort to make them different would result in an Isabelle-style dumping ground for moves Ganondorf has no room for.

Really, part of my gripe with Smash 4-on moveset design is that Sora Ltd. clearly has started to come up with way more move ideas than there are inputs that fit them. That's probably why they have incorporated so many dumb solutions to this problem like dumping ground characters (Isabelle), an overload of projectile normals (Mega Man, Villager), command inputs (the later traditional FG characters), and loading several moves into one input in some way (Hero, Sora). Ganon being Ganondorf's dumping ground would just be an extension of this problem.



That's not controversial, that's an overly popular opinion (Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C).



And yet you don't want Zelda to regain her Light Arrow as a regular move despite her having diverged from her Smash debut as much as Ganondorf.



Again, older Ganon and Ganondorf aren't that different in capabilities. The savage pig is really TP-on bestial Ganon. Also, Ganondorf's magical powers are mostly off-screen, meaning you can't really make a moveset out of them; all you can really do is give him some kind of magical projectile whether it be the electric ball from OoT or the Blazing Bat, but no one wants to give Donkey Kong a barrel throw or his coconut gun.



So he just becomes as chaotic and inconsistent animation-wise like several Smash 4-on newcomers.

If you really can't imagine two Ganondorfs when we already have two Zeldas and three Links (and three Mario bros, three Samuses, two Pits and two Belmonts) then that's just you lacking imagination. There is absolutely no inherent reason the existence of Ganondorf would make Ganon unplayable. Especially given Ganondorf doens't even use a trident in Smash (and has actually never used a trident in a mainline game). Ganon could have more poke focused game, like a powerful heavy weight version of Marth. That alone is something different enough to warrant a moveset. But even if they were literally the exact same character (which they're not, Dead Man's Volley is literally the only attack they chare) that still wouldn't bar potential because Echoes and Semi Clones exist. The three Links are literally the same characters using the same weapons and they manage to work. I'm guessing the counter there is that we really don't need three Links and that they could stand to be more different, to which I agree, though I think two Links, one younger, one older, would work (personally I think they should have just kept the name Young Link for Toon Link when Brawl came round).

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Sorry for taking a while, but since you tagged me I'll try to make some suggestions, at least on the first party newcomers.

Octoling, Waluigi, Impa: all likely, maybe Impa slightly less so.

Toy Link: I think it's a reach; they're more likely to just retain Toon Link and shave Young Link, IMO.

Porky: he is definitely demanded, but in my estimation he's not high up enough to get in as a demand character unless there is also some strong bias towards him by the roster deciders. I think other than maybe Waluigi, Isaac is clear-cut the next "fan demand" first party, though of course there are plenty of others. I know you have Isaac in the "revived IP" spot, but he could do double-duty and fill both categories.

Raven Beak and Astral Chain: I think these will depend a lot on the timing of the project plan. If it is being done like right now, then both of these could get in. If the next Smash isn't until several years from now, then these two will have to hold their relevance for quite a while, which makes them less likely (especially when both have uncertain futures).

Pokemon: time is now for another Sinnoh rep if they ever decided to dip into oldgen mons. As for recent mons, well, I don't want to comment too heavily on characters that haven't even gotten a public reveal yet.

Revived IP: there are so many good options IMO. We'll have to see how it all shakes out, but I supported GS and AW especially even back in the Brawl days.

Diskun: well, it's a reach, but I know you're guessing at this to fill the "surprise character" quota so I won't be too critical.

Lastly, it depends on the timing but I think the next game is far enough away for Noah to be in base.

About Raven beak, I think it could be amazing but realistically I don't see it happening. We never got one off Zelda vilains even when their respective games was very recent (like Girahim with Smash 4 and Midna with Brawl), so I don't think they would go with Raven beak for Metroid.

I think Astral chain is very likely, especially if it's have a sequel before the next Smash.

Noah I think will have high chances but Mio could be chosen before him, depends of moveset potential and how the story of 3 will develop.

About the revival IP characters, I think either Advance wars or Golden sun have more chances. Advance wars becasue it already got a revival, and Golden sun because of fan demands. I really don't think Starfy will ever seriously get in Smash. Aside from that maybe the girl from Famicom detective club could be considered, especially if Sakurai is back.

For your third party choices, I agree with everything aside from Zero and Chrono. About Zero, I think they will add a new Capcom franchise before a second Mega man characters (most likely Resident evil or Monster hunter but could also be Phoenix Wright). Chrono I just don't see it because at this point his game is just so old. Atlus characters, Nahobino feels the more likely.

 

[Gengar84]

I'm pretty sure that statement operates on the logic of "Ganon and Ganondorf are effectively separate characters", and that's something I can't entirely agree with.

If we were talking about TP-on Ganon, which consistently has had Ganon be a silent charging beast and Ganondorf maintaining his love of swords from WW on (counting cyborg Calamity as the closest thing to Ganondorf here), then I would agree with that... with the caveat that you can't really make the bestial Ganon into something playable.

If we're talking about the Ganon from before that time, Ganon and Ganondorf don't really strike me as that different ability-wise. They're both physically strong, have powerful magic (with most feats being off-screen mind), and they use bladed weapons. Ganon may have his Blazing Bats, but I don't see that as something that Ganondorf can't plausibly do.

The issue is that people want the Ganon from LoZ1-OoX to be playable, the one who isn't that different from Ganondorf. That's why I say any effort to make them different would result in an Isabelle-style dumping ground for moves Ganondorf has no room for.

Really, part of my gripe with Smash 4-on moveset design is that Sora Ltd. clearly has started to come up with way more move ideas than there are inputs that fit them. That's probably why they have incorporated so many dumb solutions to this problem like dumping ground characters (Isabelle), an overload of projectile normals (Mega Man, Villager), command inputs (the later traditional FG characters), and loading several moves into one input in some way (Hero, Sora). Ganon being Ganondorf's dumping ground would just be an extension of this problem.



That's not controversial, that's an overly popular opinion (Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C).



And yet you don't want Zelda to regain her Light Arrow as a regular move despite her having diverged from her Smash debut as much as Ganondorf.



Again, older Ganon and Ganondorf aren't that different in capabilities. The savage pig is really TP-on bestial Ganon. Also, Ganondorf's magical powers are mostly off-screen, meaning you can't really make a moveset out of them; all you can really do is give him some kind of magical projectile whether it be the electric ball from OoT or the Blazing Bat, but no one wants to give Donkey Kong a barrel throw or his coconut gun.



So he just becomes as chaotic and inconsistent animation-wise like several Smash 4-on newcomers.

I never made any mention of Zelda’s light arrows. I don’t know why you made that assumption. I also don’t think Ganondorf’s moveset has to be complicated at all. He can be as simple as the Melee newcomers while keeping his canon abilities. Maybe I’ll make a sample moveset to show you what I mean. I’m not sure how you’re coming to the conclusion that he would be complicated at all based on what I said. The multi weapon Byleth idea was my least favorite of the three but I was just brainstorming other possibilities. It’s not like Byleth was very complicated to begin with.

 

[Jotari]

And yet you don't want Zelda to regain her Light Arrow as a regular move despite her having diverged from her Smash debut as much as Ganondorf.

I made a thread about that. You never posted in it

Okay, let's talk about Light Arrows

So @Quillion has certainly mentioned this enough in various threads talking about changing characters, but there doesn't seem to have been any proper, focused discussion on it. SImply put, Zelda, despite being a character that has been around since the 80s, really doesn't have a huge amount of...

smashboards.com

 

[Perkilator]

Here's how to make Ganondorf unique as himself: make Dead Man's Volley his Down B, but keep Wizard's Foot as his dash attack and down air.

 

[Diddy Kong]

About Raven beak, I think it could be amazing but realistically I don't see it happening. We never got one off Zelda vilains even when their respective games was very recent (like Girahim with Smash 4 and Midna with Brawl), so I don't think they would go with Raven beak for Metroid.

I think Astral chain is very likely, especially if it's have a sequel before the next Smash.

Noah I think will have high chances but Mio could be chosen before him, depends of moveset potential and how the story of 3 will develop.

About the revival IP characters, I think either Advance wars or Golden sun have more chances. Advance wars becasue it already got a revival, and Golden sun because of fan demands. I really don't think Starfy will ever seriously get in Smash. Aside from that maybe the girl from Famicom detective club could be considered, especially if Sakurai is back.

For your third party choices, I agree with everything aside from Zero and Chrono. About Zero, I think they will add a new Capcom franchise before a second Mega man characters (most likely Resident evil or Monster hunter but could also be Phoenix Wright). Chrono I just don't see it because at this point his game is just so old. Atlus characters, Nahobino feels the more likely.

Dark Samus is a one-off villain, Raven Beak has significant story influence over the whole Metroid series, I will leave it at that to avoid spoiling things.

Honestly Impa is to me the best and safest choice for a Zelda newcomer, since we're speaking of Ganon and all that. I just honestly don't see Ganon AND Ganondorf happening, yeah sure we have 3 Links and 2 Zeldas, but I imagine that won't be the case in a reboot. Sheik is a character without a future, Young Link is there because Everyone Is Here.

If it where to me, I'd choose a reboot Zelda roster as this; Link, Zelda, Impa, "Calamity Ganondorf", and a Champion with my biggest preferance being Urbosa.

If we get additional characters with the current cast I choose for Impa and Skull Kid, fits better thematically. I'd also opt for a Ocarina of Time Link as Echo to BotW Link.

 

[Jotari]

Here's how to make Ganondorf unique as himself: make Dead Man's Volley his Down B, but keep Wizard's Foot as his dash attack and down air.

That would be a rather hilarious dash attack. Completely different from the rest of the cast. Wouldn't really work as keeping Wizard's Foot around though, as the advantage of it is as a burst move option. His Down Aerial is also one of his best moves. No, the really obvious thing to do is remove Warlock Punch as it is functionally useless. Though personally I'd rather the Dead Man's Volley be a reflector rather than an outright projectile, as that is the more important part of the attack in Zelda and it is more beneficial to Ganondorf in Smash. Though it wouldn't be impossible to do both at once replicating something like Little Mac.

Dark Samus is a one-off villain, Raven Beak has significant story influence over the whole Metroid series, I will leave it at that to avoid spoiling things.

Honestly Impa is to me the best and safest choice for a Zelda newcomer, since we're speaking of Ganon and all that. I just honestly don't see Ganon AND Ganondorf happening, yeah sure we have 3 Links and 2 Zeldas, but I imagine that won't be the case in a reboot. Sheik is a character without a future, Young Link is there because Everyone Is Here.

If it where to me, I'd choose a reboot Zelda roster as this; Link, Zelda, Impa, "Calamity Ganondorf", and a Champion with my biggest preferance being Urbosa.

If we get additional characters with the current cast I choose for Impa and Skull Kid, fits better thematically. I'd also opt for a Ocarina of Time Link as Echo to BotW Link.

Dark Samus appeared in two games, three games if you consider her just a form of the titular Metroid Prime. And even then she only got in as an Echo (when one of her biggest selling point amongst supporters is that she actually fights differently to Samus). Raven Beaks importance to the Metroid series as a whole is a recent retcon, he's been made important because it's just decided he's important, not because he actually has much of a history within the series. He's a very new character and time will have to tell to see how iconic he becomes. I don't really expect him to have many future appearances though (of course anyone playing Metroid or Super Metroid back in the day would have had little reason to think RIdley or Mother Brain would come back, so who knows how they handle him from here on out. The most likely case is that Metroid will go into hibernation again and we won't get another game until after the next Smash title -_-).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dash attack for Ganondorf seems quite set in stone honestly, do the bladed charge he does in Twilight Princess, very laggy but very long range, has armor, and insane knockback, maybe allow the fake out twist punch to be added into the move as well by pressing A, giving him better coverage and makes it less punishable, especially when the opponent shields or parries.

 

[SPEN18]

About Raven beak, I think it could be amazing but realistically I don't see it happening. We never got one off Zelda vilains even when their respective games was very recent (like Girahim with Smash 4 and Midna with Brawl), so I don't think they would go with Raven beak for Metroid.

Yeah it does probably require them to really value Raven Beak's behind-the-scenes role in the overall story, and/or value him as a representative of the overall importance of the Chozo to the Metroid lore.

I suppose he could show up as a boss in Smash as well if not made playable.

I think Astral chain is very likely, especially if it's have a sequel before the next Smash.

I think it is fairly likely but some people overestimate it; it's still a fairly niche game. A continuing future beyond the first installment would definitely raise its chances.
Of course, I was saying similar things about ARMS (somewhat of a niche game, might need a sequel to get in) before Min Min (although ARMS had the advantage of being internally developed, and also being a game used to sell the idea of the joycons early in the Switch's lifecycle).

 

[Ivander]

Raven Beaks importance to the Metroid series as a whole is a recent retcon, he's been made important because it's just decided he's important, not because he actually has much of a history within the series.

Raven Beak is a Chozo and the Chozo are frickin' important in almost every Metroid game.

• The Chozo created the titular Metroids to exterminate the major threat of Fusion, the X-Parasites, and also created the major Metroid villain Mother Brain, who would become probably the most powerful Space Pirate leader.
• They also were part of Tallon IV, which was impacted by a Leviathan from Phaaze, and they worked to prevent the spread of Phazon on their planet, and sealed Metroid Prime, who would become the central antagonist of the Prime series and would become Dark Samus.
• They have met and shared with the Luminoth from Prime 2, created SkyTown and the Elysians of Elysia and also shared their knowledge and wisdom with the Bryyonians of Bryyo from Prime 3.
• They not only took in Samus when her parents were killed by Ridley when she was a child, but they also created Samus' Power Suit and equipment and added their DNA to her. Part of the Galactic Federation's equipment was Chozo technology reverse engineered. And if you take in the Metroid manga, the Chozo did work alongside the Galactic Federation while they were alive(and kept the X-Parasites a secret from them to avoid the possibility of temptation).

And now when you look at Metroid Samus Returns and Metroid Dread, they literally could've stopped most of the main games had Raven Beak and his clan agreed with the other Chozo in destroying the planet and the Metroids. This detail wasn't about making Raven Beak important for the sake of making him important and a threat, but to re-affirm the fact of how much frickin' impact the Chozo as a whole have on the whole series.
Much like how Ridley represents the recurring villain that would considered the protagonist's main arch-enemy and Dark Samus represents the titular creature as well as the main villain of the Prime trilogy, Raven Beak would be a representation of one of the Metroid series' most important backstories and world building, the Chozo. It also helps that he's from Metroid's biggest title release since Metroid Other M and the long-awaited sequel to Metroid Fusion that was received critically well.

 

[fogbadge]

And now, because I’m bored, here’s the bosses I would’ve picked for Ultimate:

• Master Hand
• Crazy Hand
• Galeem
• Dharkon
• Giga Bowser
• Ganon
• Mega Rayquaza
• Marx
• Death Egg Robot
• Dracula

id have gone with:

ganon
Mother brain
Meowser
Ultra necrozma
Egg viper
Dj octavio
Void terrmima
And the hands

of course now I’d have fury bowser and eternamax eternatus

 

[Jotari]

Raven Beak is a Chozo and the Chozo are frickin' important in almost every Metroid game.

• The Chozo created the titular Metroids to exterminate the major threat of Fusion, the X-Parasites, and also created the major Metroid villain Mother Brain, who would become probably the most powerful Space Pirate leader.
• They also were part of Tallon IV, which was impacted by a Leviathan from Phaaze, and they worked to prevent the spread of Phazon on their planet, and sealed Metroid Prime, who would become the central antagonist of the Prime series and would become Dark Samus.
• They have met and shared with the Luminoth from Prime 2, created SkyTown and the Elysians of Elysia and also shared their knowledge and wisdom with the Bryyonians of Bryyo from Prime 3.
• They not only took in Samus when her parents were killed by Ridley when she was a child, but they also created Samus' Power Suit and equipment and added their DNA to her. Part of the Galactic Federation's equipment was Chozo technology reverse engineered. And if you take in the Metroid manga, the Chozo did work alongside the Galactic Federation while they were alive(and kept the X-Parasites a secret from them to avoid the possibility of temptation).

And now when you look at Metroid Samus Returns and Metroid Dread, they literally could've stopped most of the main games had Raven Beak and his clan agreed with the other Chozo in destroying the planet and the Metroids. This detail wasn't about making Raven Beak important for the sake of making him important and a threat, but to re-affirm the fact of how much frickin' impact the Chozo as a whole have on the whole series.
Much like how Ridley represents the recurring villain that would considered the protagonist's main arch-enemy and Dark Samus represents the titular creature as well as the main villain of the Prime trilogy, Raven Beak would be a representation of one of the Metroid series' most important backstories and world building, the Chozo. It also helps that he's from Metroid's biggest title release since Metroid Other M and the long-awaited sequel to Metroid Fusion that was received critically well.

You don't have to tell me how important the Chozo are, I know, but that's because I'm actually a Metroid fan. Most passing gamers who have delved into one or two games likely have no idea who the Chozo are or what role they play and that's hardly surprising considering that Dread is the first time we ever actually saw a real Chozo in a game (mandatory note of Metroid Prime Chozo ghosts as someone will bring them up if I don't). The Chozo are most iconic as lifeless statues holding power ups. That's what players are going to recognize. I would in no way be against Raven Beak being added to Smash, it would be a good way of representing a lot of Samus's powers that are absent and just his animations in general during the scripted sequences look like they'd work well in Smash, but at this moment in time he simply is not an iconic character. He is to Metroid what Demise is to Zelda.

 

[Quillion]

Here's my short take on Ganon, including Ganondorf: he doesn't have an "iconic ability" at all, just an iconic "general idea" of being physically strong, magically capable, and skilled with bladed weapons. He always changes specific abilities from game to game, only really keeping in that general idea.