Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Quillion]

I was still talking about plain old Ganon. In any form he disappeared after Twilight Princess until Breath of the Wild. I also wouldn't describe swords as his main armament in Breath of the Wild. That's misleading to anyone who hasn't played the game. He uses the ancient weapon types, which are a variety of weapons including a sword, giant axe, a spear, an arm cannon and even that chiansaw blade thingy (I think).

Yes, you did talk about Ganon disappearing entirely until BotW.

But you also talked about Ganondorf being a sword wielder in two games. Which is fair if you focus on Ganondorf the man, but Ganon as a whole, pig, man, or whatever, is being pushed to be a sword user, again outside of explicit throwbacks to the first four games. And I called cyborg Calamity's sword his main armament since it's the one that's front-and-center, but your point regarding that is also fair.

I don't play Mario, but I think that kind of ignores the fact that FLUDD is considered a pretty great move for Mario. Sure it might be outdated, but we have entire characters that are outdate like Captain Falcon and Ness. I'm willing to have an outdate move or two if they work well for the character. Though for the umpteenth time I'll note my view that incorporating proper custom specials would allow us to have outdated moves in tandem with updated moves.

On its own, I can see that it has a niche in high-level play. In the context of Mario's moveset design, it really doesn't fit either as part of the existing whole or as a relevant ability from a recent game. Mario was designed in Smash 64 to imitate the standard Shoto archetype, with Fireball being Hadouken, SJP being Shoryuken, and Tornado being Tatsumaki. In the context of Mario's whole moveset design, FLUDD is just outlandish and complicated.

Also, I wouldn't call Falcon or Ness outdated since Falcon never fights the way he does in Smash in F-Zero, and he frankly has no reason to anyway, and Ness was only the protagonist of one game.

Also, I can't help but notice, Jotari , that you're copying entire sections of posts only to respond to a small part of said section. The latter is fine TBF, but can you start just copying that small section instead?

I like those ideas, a lot actually. I wouldn't do the Down B tho, you can do the cape reflection with B when Ganondorf throws the electric energy ball I feel. Down B needs to be something powerful, as say the earthquake punch of Ocarina of Time, or what about the enormous dark energy charge up projectile ?

Overall his Ocarina of Time appearance had the most to work with, so I'd mostly base Ganondorf around that.

OoT Ganondorf doesn't really have a lot to work with when you think of it. Even if he wasn't based on Falcon's template back then, sure, he might have his ground punch proper, but he would probably still be a brawler with magical effects. And considering the 64-Brawl refusal to give heavy-archetypes projectiles, I doubt he would even have his energy ball.

And Gengar84 , I know that you brought up Sephiroth being a big-bodied sword-wielding magic user, but it's rather telling that he was arbitrarily made a lightweight because his attacks are so overwhelming. Bit of an overcompensation akin to Mac's "no air fighter" design gimmick. I highly doubt Ganondorf in 64/Melee moveset design standards would even be acceptable as a lightweight if they gave him Ganon's trident alongside an amalgam of magic of his OoT appearance and the prior games.

They put a lot more thought into moveset design during those days, unlike the Smash 4-on newcomers whose designers largely don't.

 

[Gengar84]

Yes, you did talk about Ganon disappearing entirely until BotW.

But you also talked about Ganondorf being a sword wielder in two games. Which is fair if you focus on Ganondorf the man, but Ganon as a whole, pig, man, or whatever, is being pushed to be a sword user, again outside of explicit throwbacks to the first four games. And I called cyborg Calamity's sword his main armament since it's the one that's front-and-center, but your point regarding that is also fair.



On its own, I can see that it has a niche in high-level play. In the context of Mario's moveset design, it really doesn't fit either as part of the existing whole or as a relevant ability from a recent game. Mario was designed in Smash 64 to imitate the standard Shoto archetype, with Fireball being Hadouken, SJP being Shoryuken, and Tornado being Tatsumaki. In the context of Mario's whole moveset design, FLUDD is just outlandish and complicated.

Also, I wouldn't call Falcon or Ness outdated since Falcon never fights the way he does in Smash in F-Zero, and he frankly has no reason to anyway, and Ness was only the protagonist of one game.

Also, I can't help but notice, Jotari , that you're copying entire sections of posts only to respond to a small part of said section. The latter is fine TBF, but can you start just copying that small section instead?



OoT Ganondorf doesn't really have a lot to work with when you think of it. Even if he wasn't based on Falcon's template back then, sure, he might have his ground punch proper, but he would probably still be a brawler with magical effects. And considering the 64-Brawl refusal to give heavy-archetypes projectiles, I doubt he would even have his energy ball.

And Gengar84 , I know that you brought up Sephiroth being a big-bodied sword-wielding magic user, but it's rather telling that he was arbitrarily made a lightweight because his attacks are so overwhelming. Bit of an overcompensation akin to Mac's "no air fighter" design gimmick. I highly doubt Ganondorf in 64/Melee moveset design standards would even be acceptable as a lightweight if they gave him Ganon's trident alongside an amalgam of magic of his OoT appearance and the prior games.

They put a lot more thought into moveset design during those days, unlike the Smash 4-on newcomers whose designers largely don't.

I think Ganondorf’s attacks would probably still come out pretty slow and powerful with the trident, similarly to his current Smash attacks. His movement speed could stay relatively the same as it is now, just with levitating animations. I don’t think there would be too much of an issue with balancing the character. He would likely be a lot lighter than he currently is but still on the medium to heavy side. The only true projectiles I gave him were Dead Man’s Volley and the trident toss teleport. I reimagined his Fire Bat attack into a mid to short range move that essentially works similarly to Bowser and Charizard’s Flamethrower attack. Possibly a bit of a hybrid between a flamethrower and Piranha Plant’s poison breath.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Funnily enough, given the history Zelda and Sheik, one method of making a potentially faithful Ganon?



Give him a transformation gimmick into Agahnim.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Funnily enough, given the history Zelda and Sheik, one method of making a potentially faithful Ganon?



Give him a transformation gimmick into Agahnim.

I could see Puppet Ganon making for an interesting potential Final Smash too. Mostly due to the much more unique take on Ganon. The rest are just regular pigs/boars(sometimes bipedal), but the Puppet version isn't even always a pig/boar. Having a snake and spider version allows for some major differences.

I mean, yeah, it's not really faithful to the particular version of Ganon or Ganondorf, either. Though maybe it'd make for a better boss than the current Ganon, with that one removed as ALTTP Ganon playable.

What's your thoughts on how Agnahim would play(final smash or regular character)?

 

[Quillion]

I think Ganondorf’s attacks would probably still come out pretty slow and powerful with the trident, similarly to his current Smash attacks. His movement speed could stay relatively the same as it is now, just with levitating animations. I don’t think there would be too much of an issue with balancing the character. He would likely be a lot lighter than he currently is but still on the medium to heavy side. The only true projectiles I gave him were Dead Man’s Volley and the trident toss teleport. I reimagined his Fire Bat attack into a mid to short range move that essentially works similarly to Bowser and Charizard’s Flamethrower attack. Possibly a bit of a hybrid between a flamethrower and Piranha Plant’s poison breath.

Two true projectiles would be excessive for a "classic heavy". Even just one conventional projectile arguably would be too.

Funnily enough, given the history Zelda and Sheik, one method of making a potentially faithful Ganon?



Give him a transformation gimmick into Agahnim.

On one hand Agahnim's traits were, unintentionally or not, absorbed into Ganondorf, so it would be a lot less weird than Sheik staying on in the long run.

On the other hand, transformation wasn't really perfected until Pythra came along, so at best Ganon-Agahnim as a transforming duo would probably either be carried by one character or both characters would be badly designed. Also, Zelda and Sheik are better-designed characters separate, not that it's saying much for the former.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Boom!
View attachment 350567

Very similar to my pass.

Except I'd replace Kunio & Riki and Metal Slug with Billy & Jimmy and Doom Slayer.

 

[Morgana J. Cat]

First off, I did play Bad Fur Day when it first came out on the N64. I never beat the game but I got far enough to have a good idea of the tone of the game. While Conker himself may not have been as vulgar as a lot of the other characters, it was a major part of the appeal of the game. I’ve been a huge RARE fan from the NES through the end of the N64 and played a ton of their games. They were actually my favorite developer at the time. I don’t appreciate your accusation that I’ve never played the game just because I have a different opinion than you do.

Secondly, I wasn’t suggesting that Conker couldn’t have an original moveset. Like you said, Conker does have a lot of tools to pull from to separate himself from Banjo. I’m just saying that from a personal standpoint, he wouldn’t interest me at all. I just don’t like the character for starters. Secondly, even if he does have a unique moveset, he’s still another 3D platforming animal mascot from the N64 era. Smash already has a lot of platforming characters and a lot of people also want Crash who fits that mold. I feel like it is a lot more interesting to go with a genre that isn’t as heavily represented in Smash. If you count the DK characters, all of RARE’s characters in Smash are animal based platforming characters. I love DKC and Banjo was very deserving but I personally don’t think we need another of the same type of character when the company has so much more to offer.

Finally, it’s just my personal opinion, as I’ve stated multiple times. I don’t know why you’re getting so bent out of shape about it. I never attacked anyone for wanting the character. I was just trying to explain why I personally don’t have any interest in seeing him in Smash. I’m sorry if I offended you with what I said but I think Ihave a right to my opinion.

You pretty much said Conker can't be toned down because he wouldn't be true to himself when the game clearly shows Conker as one of its least offensive characters, so you honestly shouldn't be surprised of that assumption. And yes, the mature humor is a big part of the game, but obviously the main point is to have the character with a moveset and attitude that stay true enough to his original game self, which shouldn't be a problem here. If they were to put every single detail about every game, then MGS and Bayonetta's representation would've been far more hardcore.

Also I fail to see the logic on the second point. Might as well say we have too many NES action platformer reps so we don't need Rash or any of the Battletoads as well, which either way I still strongly disagree. Conker may be an animal character from a platformer series, but his game, design and personality stand out more than enough for him to be considered just another one.

Finally, on the subject of Conker being RARE’s second poster boy, I don’t think that’s true anymore if it ever even was in the first place. Killer Instinct 2013 was a huge hit and is extremely highly regarded. People have been heavily requesting a new game for years now and Phil Spencer even came out and acknowledged how much support there was for the series and that he was aware how much people wanted a new game. Even Battletoads got a reboot last year and Rash has made guest appearances in Shovel Knight and Killer Instinct. There is also a new Perfect Dark game currently in development. Sea of Thieves is easily RARE’s most popular game at the moment but it doesn’t really have any standout characters I’m aware of. Conker hasn’t been relevant in years and the X-Box port of his game was relatively poorly received.

Conker was actually a huge commercial failure on the N64 despite receiving great critical reviews, only receiving 55,000 sales within its first month of release and quickly dropping off after that. Seeing as barely anyone bought the game, I don’t see how he could possibly be considered as RARE’s #2. I don’t like ever calling characters “bandwagon” characters but I do think most Smash fans vastly overrate Conker’s popularity while generally dismissing the rest of RARE’s characters.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2001/04/06/conker-a-certifiable-flop
The Battletoads reboot, on the other hand, while also considered a bit of a disappointment by many, has sold over one million copies within two months of release.

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These are two promotional images from Microsoft that both feature Rash. The bottom image is as just from this year. I haven’t seen Conker used in any promotional imagery in many years even though I tried to find something. I believe, at this current time, Rash is actually RARE’s most promoted character with Sea of Thieves being by far its most successful and promoted game.

And yes, Conker is kinda Rare's second poster boy. Even tho he hasn't had a game in quite some time if you don't count the abomination that is Young Conker, he has the most merchandise out of any other Rare character, next to Banjo-Kazooie. Even big stuff like first 4 figures collectibles which Rash could only dream of. He is also commonly highlighted whenever Rare puts its most iconic characters all together alongside Banjo. A clear hint that they see him as a mascot character.

Spoiler

And lastly, if you think popularity and sales always have to match then Earthbound says hi.

To clarify, it's cool that you have your own preferences in terms of who you want, but your points don't hold any water. If you don't want me to laugh at them then don't act like a clown, simple as that.

 

[osby]

-I also think you should consider keeping Joker and Roy/Chrom. I understand Roy and Chrom are being out-prioritized by more unique Fire Emblem characters and Joker is presumably being out-prioritized by a more modern Atlus character, but these characters have made such a splash among Ultimate's player base that their absence would definitely be felt.

Smash "replaced" a version of Link with another version of Link in 2008 and ever since fans convinced themselves that every JRPG character in Smash is just a placeholder for newer protagonists.

 

[Quillion]

Smash "replaced" a version of Link with another version of Link in 2008 and ever since fans convinced themselves that every JRPG character in Smash is just a placeholder for newer protagonists.

It's an interesting discussion to be had. The way Smash is handling franchises that "switch out" main characters likely won't be sustainable in the long run.

 

[Oracle Link]

I still think my Perfect Smash Cocept would save Smash as a franchise (Although yeah i know it sounds Hyperbolic!)

 

[dream1ng]

It's an interesting discussion to be had. The way Smash is handling franchises that "switch out" main characters likely won't be sustainable in the long run.

The way Smash handles its roster in general isn't sustainable in the long run and was only accomplished by nine years of building on the same framework. Continual additions without cuts isn't tenable and eventually when the axe comes down, it probably will more readily target franchises replete with characters that have lapsed from the spotlight in the face of newer ones. Along with clones and third-parties.

 

[osby]

I still think my Perfect Smash Cocept would save Smash as a franchise (Although yeah i know it sounds Hyperbolic!)

It is hyperbolic.

Smash doesn't need to be saved, practically every new entry outsells the previous one and it's one of the most successful fighting game franchises ever.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The way Smash handles its roster in general isn't sustainable in the long run and was only accomplished by nine years of building on the same framework. Continual additions without cuts isn't tenable and eventually when the axe comes down, it probably will more readily target franchises replete with characters that have lapsed from the spotlight in the face of newer ones. Along with clones and third-parties.

There are indeed characters with significant more staying power than others, that's no argument. I wouldn't even put it past them to get rid of the surprise additions of old either, as Wii Fit Trainer. There's a clear core roster that will forever stay, but even that roster isn't all that big.

Honestly it comes down to a few characters, the primary Mario cast, Link and Zelda, DK and Diddy, the first generation Pokemon (with or without Jigglypuff am not sure, Squirtle and Ivysaur aren't a given either), the Kirby cast, Yoshi, Wario, Villager and Isabelle, Samus with and without Power Suit, and honestly that's about it.

 

[dream1ng]

There are indeed characters with significant more staying power than others, that's no argument. I wouldn't even put it past them to get rid of the surprise additions of old either, as Wii Fit Trainer. There's a clear core roster that will forever stay, but even that roster isn't all that big.

That's true, there could be exceptions that subvert the presumed qualities which make characters seem likelier for the boot.

Honestly it comes down to a few characters, the primary Mario cast, Link and Zelda, DK and Diddy, the first generation Pokemon (with or without Jigglypuff am not sure, Squirtle and Ivysaur aren't a given either), the Kirby cast, Yoshi, Wario, Villager and Isabelle, Samus with and without Power Suit, and honestly that's about it.

I see no reality in which Fox, Inkling or Captain Falcon is cut. They also won't cut Ganon/dorf, but they might change his moveset or incarnation. And I would be in outright disbelief if they cut Ness, Marth, or, to a slightly lesser extent, Pit.

 

[Gengar84]

You pretty much said Conker can't be toned down because he wouldn't be true to himself when the game clearly shows Conker as one of its least offensive characters, so you honestly shouldn't be surprised of that assumption. And yes, the mature humor is a big part of the game, but obviously the main point is to have the character with a moveset and attitude that stay true enough to his original game self, which shouldn't be a problem here. If they were to put every single detail about every game, then MGS and Bayonetta's representation would've been far more hardcore.

Also I fail to see the logic on the second point. Might as well say we have too many NES action platformer reps so we don't need Rash or any of the Battletoads as well, which either way I still strongly disagree. Conker may be an animal character from a platformer series, but his game, design and personality stand out more than enough for him to be considered just another one.


And yes, Conker is kinda Rare's second poster boy. Even tho he hasn't had a game in quite some time if you don't count the abomination that is Young Conker, he has the most merchandise out of any other Rare character, next to Banjo-Kazooie. Even big stuff like first 4 figures collectibles which Rash could only dream of. He is also commonly highlighted whenever Rare puts its most iconic characters all together alongside Banjo. A clear hint that they see him as a mascot character.

And lastly, if you think popularity and sales always have to match then Earthbound says hi.

To clarify, it's cool that you have your own preferences in terms of who you want, but I don't think your points hold any water tbh.

I'm going to try to explain myself in the best way that I can. In doing so, I apologize in advance if any of my points come across as aggressive or dismissive. I always try to be respectful around here and I don't want to offend anyone. It's just hard to clarify some of my thoughts without giving off that impression sometimes. I've always had issues socializing with people so it can be very difficult sometimes to explain myself without starting an argument. Again, I'm very sorry if I offend anyone with what I'm about to say and please keep in mind that these are all just my personal opinions and I'm not trying to pass anything off as a fact or claim that anyone else is wrong for feeling the way they do.

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying it's impossible to tone Conker down, I'm just saying that he would lose some of what made him popular in doing so. Beyond the game's vulgarity, Conker is also shown off as drunk a lot of the time, which wouldn't really fly in a Smash game. Again, you could tone that down and it wouldn't be too big of an issue, but it is one extra step that RARE's other characters wouldn't have to deal with. I don't think people are even reading my entire posts before responding to me. I've stated multiple times now that I don't have a problem with Conker joining the Smash roster, it's just that I personally want to see RARE's other characters get in first.

I also don't think we have too many platform mascot characters in Smash. I have no issues with Crash Bandicoot or Rayman joining the roster, and honestly I don't really mind Conker joining either despite not caring for him as a character. My main issue is with RARE's representation specifically, as I've stated before. Right now, the only representation that RARE has in Smash are cartoony animal platforming mascots in the DK characters and Banjo-Kazooie. I don't have a problem with that at all, I'm just saying that I would prefer to see more variety in their next character. I've never tried to push my opinions as objective fact like and have gone out of my way to clarify that they are just my opinions and still people lash out at me for them. I don't understand why this is such a problem for so many people. Maybe this whole thing is my fault for not better clarifying that these are just my personal opinions from the start. I thought I made that clear enough but apparently I was wrong and I still ended up upsetting people.

I'm having a hard time seeing how Conker is more popular than the other names mentioned above despite his games selling abysmally. Generally, a game selling better means that more people are interested in said game, making it more popular. There has been a massive public outcry for another Killer Instinct game for years, so much so that Phil Spencer had to come out and make a public announcement acknowledging its huge popularity and demand and let everyone know that they were aware how much people wanted the game. I haven't seen the same type of demand for a new Conker game. I know you claim that sales don't matter but when the Killer Instinct reboot sold 13 million copies compared to Conker's 55 thousand, I'm not sure how anyone could make the claim that Conker was the more popular game. I haven't found a source with a hard number on the number sold but from everything I've seen, even if you combine the sales of Bad Fur Day and Live & Reloaded, it's still well under half a million and less than half of the underwhelming Battletoads reboot. I'm not claiming that Rash or the Battletoads are RARE's biggest character either but their games have sold much better than Conker's. I have a feeling that Conker's popularity is a lot like Geno's in that it's primarily focused within the Smash fanbase. Sure, he has other fans beyond just Smash but I'm not seeing the public outcry for another Conker game.

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Several of those images you showed also have Rash and other RARE characters so I don't think those are the best examples. Here are some recent promotional images of X-Box as well as an official sculpt of Fulgore from Killer Instinct. As you can see, the Battletoads and Sea of Thieves are the only RARE properties shown off in the above images. Rash being shown off in the middle image, despite standing out like a sore thumb next to all of the extremely realistic human characters shows that Microsoft still cares about the character.

Spoiler

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Sure Earthbound is popular within a certain fanbase but if we compare it to a series with vastly higher sales like Final Fantasy or Pokemon, it pales in comparison. Dragon Quest, Tales, Persona, and many other games also sold much better than Earthbound and are generally much more recognizable. I would argue that the only reason many people today even know about Earthbound is due to the fact that Ness and Lucas are in Smash Bros.. If you're going to use Earthbound as an example of something being popular despite its lack of sales, I think you would need to compare its popularity with a series that has sold much better and show how Earthbound is somehow more popular than those series.

Normally I wouldn't even care that much about this whole thing. All I was trying to do in the first place is explain why I personally want to see the Battletoads and Killer Instinct in Smash. Conker is the only RARE character that seems to ever get support from Smash fans so I thought I would address how I feel about him and why I feel the other characters deserve equal consideration. I can see now that that was a mistake. When people lash out at me and call my opinions laughable and then make statements like they are objective facts, I feel I need to defend my stance, which sometimes can unintentionally come across as aggressive. I'm sorry if I'm giving off that impression but I always try to be respectful around here and it really bothers me when I'm not shown that same courtesy.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah, I mentioned that.

then why did you also say he hadnt been since TP

 

[Oracle Link]

It is hyperbolic.

Smash doesn't need to be saved, practically every new entry outsells the previous one and it's one of the most successful fighting game franchises ever.

Yeah because the roster keeps balloning!
But lets say the next game has only 30 Characters!
Im sure while it would still sell well it DEFINITLY wouldnt outsell the previous one unless the Roster is almost completly Third Party!
And you dont even know! The Idea Its Really Amazing!

 

[Jotari]

Yes, you did talk about Ganon disappearing entirely until BotW.

But you also talked about Ganondorf being a sword wielder in two games. Which is fair if you focus on Ganondorf the man, but Ganon as a whole, pig, man, or whatever, is being pushed to be a sword user, again outside of explicit throwbacks to the first four games. And I called cyborg Calamity's sword his main armament since it's the one that's front-and-center, but your point regarding that is also fair.

Not really. Factoring in his non human appearances and he wields a sword even less. Ganon/dorf has appeared in eight mainline games
TLoZ: Doesn't wield a weapon at all (except in the BS Remake where he holds a trident).
ALTTP: Wields a trident
OoT: Wields two swordlike weapons
OoA/OoS: Wields a trident
TWW: Wields two swords (and wields nothing in his puppet Ganon form)
FSA: Wields a trident (which is given plot importance)
TP: Wields a sword
BoW: Wields an assortment of weapons
In addition to that he also appears as a boss, thought not as a character, in Link's Awakening (and it's remake) and A Link Between Worlds, wielding a trident in both. So no, there was never a concentrated effort to make Ganondorf be he man or beast a sword wielder. He's used a sword in three of his eight appearances and three of his ten boss battles. At most there was a light effort to make the human form a sword wielder in the years of the gamecube, but even then that console had a title where the trident is given the most weight. And after that era he vanished from Zelda games for a decade.

On its own, I can see that it has a niche in high-level play. In the context of Mario's moveset design, it really doesn't fit either as part of the existing whole or as a relevant ability from a recent game. Mario was designed in Smash 64 to imitate the standard Shoto archetype, with Fireball being Hadouken, SJP being Shoryuken, and Tornado being Tatsumaki. In the context of Mario's whole moveset design, FLUDD is just outlandish and complicated.

I reckon Mario players might disagree with you, but I'm not one of them so there's not much I can say. Do you play Mario?

Also, I wouldn't call Falcon or Ness outdated since Falcon never fights the way he does in Smash in F-Zero, and he frankly has no reason to anyway, and Ness was only the protagonist of one game.

Also, I can't help but notice, Jotari , that you're copying entire sections of posts only to respond to a small part of said section. The latter is fine TBF, but can you start just copying that small section instead?

I didn't mean Falcon and Ness have outdated movesets, I meant the characters themselves are outdate. Put in this way, if the first smash game was released in 2020 there's no way they'd be on the roster.

then why did you also say he hadnt been since TP

What I said was this.

That's almost assigning too much intent to them. Ganondorf, in his 25 year long history as Ganondorf has used swords twice, from the period of 2002-2006. After that the character outright disappeared, which is the truly bizarre thing. With the exception of his corpse being puppeteered in A Link Between Worlds, Breath of the Wild was the first appearance of Ganon in over ten years. As people have pointed out, as the human Ganondorf, he's appeared in more Smash games than Zelda games! And yet people bizarrely still think he's overplayed and want Zelda to explore other villains, as if they haven't been doing that for years. Which I guess just goes to show how looming his presence is a character despite the Zelda developers surprising lack of interest in him. You're right though in that Ganondorf doesn't have any clearly defined ability set. The closest is as Ganon, wielding a trident (which he didn't even do in his first appearance of more bestial forms) and warping around the place. Their main interest is creating unique boss battles rather than forging a solid identity for the character beyond "powerful" and "menacing". He's set to appear in Breath of the Wild 2 now and we can be sure if he's fought as a boss there they'll probably do something different again.

 

[Quillion]

Not really. Factoring in his non human appearances and he wields a sword even less. Ganon/dorf has appeared in eight mainline games
TLoZ: Doesn't wield a weapon at all (except in the BS Remake where he holds a trident).
ALTTP: Wields a trident
OoT: Wields two swordlike weapons
OoA/OoS: Wields a trident
TWW: Wields two swords (and wields nothing in his puppet Ganon form)
FSA: Wields a trident (which is given plot importance)
TP: Wields a sword
BoW: Wields an assortment of weapons
In addition to that he also appears as a boss, thought not as a character, in Link's Awakening (and it's remake) and A Link Between Worlds, wielding a trident in both. So no, there was never a concentrated effort to make Ganondorf be he man or beast a sword wielder. He's used a sword in three of his eight appearances and three of his ten boss battles. At most there was a light effort to make the human form a sword wielder in the years of the gamecube, but even then that console had a title where the trident is given the most weight. And after that era he vanished from Zelda games for a decade.

Nice rundown of Ganon's fighting style history, but that is why I said OUTSIDE OF EXPLICIT THROWBACKS TO THE FIRST FOUR GAMES, Ganon is being pushed to be a sword user since OoT. And since BotW designs cyborg Calamity in such a way that his Fireblight-esque sword is displayed the most prominently, I don't see it as breaking the trend. We'll have to see if the BotW sequel does so.

Also, why aren't you counting OoT Ganon as a sword wielder?

I reckon Mario players might disagree with you, but I'm not one of them so there's not much I can say. Do you play Mario?

Honestly, the move fits Squirtle better.

I didn't mean Falcon and Ness have outdated movesets, I meant the characters themselves are outdate. Put in this way, if the first smash game was released in 2020 there's no way they'd be on the roster.

Perhaps, perhaps not. But G&W was in Melee when the last G&W was released in '91, which even then was a reskin of the first G&W.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Very similar to my pass.

Except I'd replace Kunio & Riki and Metal Slug with Billy & Jimmy and Doom Slayer.

Well, you know how I feel about R&K v. B&J.

But Doom Slayer is an acceptable substitute for the Metal Slug.

It's an interesting discussion to be had. The way Smash is handling franchises that "switch out" main characters likely won't be sustainable in the long run.

Honestly, I REALLY wish that Smash did the same thing for FE that it did for DQ.

Just give me one generic FE hero moveset. And just give them a new alt costume for whoever the latest protag-kun is.

That would have worked with every FE character so far except Robin...who, frankly wouldn't have needed to be in at all if they'd had Chrom at the start.

 

[Jotari]

Nice rundown of Ganon's fighting style history, but that is why I said OUTSIDE OF EXPLICIT THROWBACKS TO THE FIRST FOUR GAMES, Ganon is being pushed to be a sword user since OoT. And since BotW designs cyborg Calamity in such a way that his Fireblight-esque sword is displayed the most prominently, I don't see it as breaking the trend. We'll have to see if the BotW sequel does so.

Also, why aren't you counting OoT Ganon as a sword wielder?

I do count Ocarina of Time. I said three games with a sword. OoT, TWW and TP. I don't consider Breath of the Wild a sword user because it's not his primary or main weapon.

I also wouldn't call anything explicit throwbacks to the first four games. Using the same weapon isn't an explicit call back. Four Swords Adventures, for example, is not explicit throwback to A Link to the Past. In A Link to the Past he fights by firing flaming bats, pounding and making the arena dark. In Four Swords Adventures he shoots balls of energy that split into parts, summons lightning, sends the Links to the dark world (completely different to making the arena dark, I say with no sarcasm) and finishes off with a Dead Man's Volley. There are of course some similarities, because he still is using the same weapon, both boss battles have him throwing his trident like a boomerang and both end with Link shooting a special arrow of sorts (assisted by Zelda in Four Swords Adventures). Though he has a trident and doesn't throw it in Oracle of Ages and Seasons. In that he teleports around the place giving brief windows to damage him, entirely unlike ALTTP, maybe a little similar to LoZ, only he's invisible throughout LoZ and you have to randomly stab so still entirely different espeically since the Oracle Ganon doesn't just throw fire balls, he also slashes with his trident, creates a floor that inverts the controls and does a combo where he pounds to stun Link before shooting a projectile. Even A Link Between Worlds, which is an entire game of explicit call back to A Link to the Past, doesn't actually resemble the A Link to the Past Ganon boss battle all that much. In ALTTP Link has to chase Ganon around while in ALBW Ganon mainly stays at the centre of the arena and you have to circle around him as he stabs forward with his trident. A character looking the same and using the same weapon isn't an explicit throw back. With the exception of the Link's Awakening boss fight, I wouldn't say Ganon has ever had a boss battle that was an explicit throw back. There are some common elements, but even they are generic, boiled down to warping and throwing the trident with Dead Man's Volley (itself being a common boss tactic in Zelda as a whole) being thrown in there somewhere. The flow of these battles are all different, as different as the sword battles are. It'd be like calling Twilight Princess a throw back to Ocarina of Time.

So, no, I wouldn't really call them explicit call backs, but you know what, even if those battles were identical in nature, it actually wouldn't change the nature of the dicussion. As saying "they push him as a swordsmen when they aren't explicitly throwing back to the first four games" is the equivalent of saying "they push him as a swordsmen except when they're pushing him as a trident user".

Perhaps, perhaps not. But G&W was in Melee when the last G&W was released in '91, which even then was a reskin of the first G&W.

I'm actually somewhat sure Mr Game and Watch wasn't even a defined character until Melee.

 

[Quillion]

Honestly, I REALLY wish that Smash did the same thing for FE that it did for DQ.

Just give me one generic FE hero moveset. And just give them a new alt costume for whoever the latest protag-kun is.

That would have worked with every FE character so far except Robin...who, frankly wouldn't have needed to be in at all if they'd had Chrom at the start.

For Marth and his three derivatives it could work. Not so much for everyone else.

I do count Ocarina of Time. I said three games with a sword. OoT, TWW and TP. I don't consider Breath of the Wild a sword user because it's not his primary or main weapon.

I also wouldn't call anything explicit throwbacks to the first four games. Using the same weapon isn't an explicit call back. Four Swords Adventures, for example, is not explicit throwback to A Link to the Past. In A Link to the Past he fights by firing flaming bats, pounding and making the arena dark. In Four Swords Adventures he shoots balls of energy that split into parts, summons lightning, sends the Links to the dark world (completely different to making the arena dark, I say with no sarcasm) and finishes off with a Dead Man's Volley. There are of course some similarities, because he still is using the same weapon, both boss battles have him throwing his trident like a boomerang and both end with Link shooting a special arrow of sorts (assisted by Zelda in Four Swords Adventures). Though he has a trident and doesn't throw it in Oracle of Ages and Seasons. In that he teleports around the place giving brief windows to damage him, entirely unlike ALTTP, maybe a little similar to LoZ, only he's invisible throughout LoZ and you have to randomly stab so still entirely different espeically since the Oracle Ganon doesn't just throw fire balls, he also slashes with his trident, creates a floor that inverts the controls and does a combo where he pounds to stun Link before shooting a projectile. Even A Link Between Worlds, which is an entire game of explicit call back to A Link to the Past, doesn't actually resemble the A Link to the Past Ganon boss battle all that much. In ALTTP Link has to chase Ganon around while in ALBW Ganon mainly stays at the centre of the arena and you have to circle around him as he stabs forward with his trident. A character looking the same and using the same weapon isn't an explicit throw back. With the exception of the Link's Awakening boss fight, I wouldn't say Ganon has ever had a boss battle that was an explicit throw back. There are some common elements, but even they are generic, boiled down to warping and throwing the trident. The flow of these battles are all different, as different as the sword battles are.

So, no, I wouldn't really call them explicit call backs, but you know what, even if those battles were identical in nature, it actually wouldn't change the nature of the dicussion. As saying "they push him as a swordsmen when they aren't explicitly throwing back to the first four games" is the equivalent of saying "they push him as a swordsmen except when they're pushing him as a trident user".

Guess you can say the Ganon of the 2D games is the closest Ganon has ever gotten to getting a consistent ability set, having his teleportation to start with and gaining his trident in ALttP, and swapping out different attacks on top of those two moves in various boss fights. It's not all that different from Bowser having his fire breath to start with and gaining Ground Pound in SMB3, and swapping out for various other abilities on top of that ever since.

I guess it's in the 3D games where the Zelda team doesn't really care about giving Ganon a consistent ability set at all, aside from a vague "uses a sword to some extent" (and yes, that's why I consider cyborg Calamity a sword user much like I do Greninja in Smash).

Not that I'm a plebeian who only cares about the 3D games mind; I think they deserve to be respected as mainline games as much as the 3D games.

 

[osby]

Honestly, I REALLY wish that Smash did the same thing for FE that it did for DQ.

Just give me one generic FE hero moveset. And just give them a new alt costume for whoever the latest protag-kun is.

That would have worked with every FE character so far except Robin...who, frankly wouldn't have needed to be in at all if they'd had Chrom at the start.

It's been almost a decade since Smash 4, you'd think Fire Emblem haters would come up with something new after "all FE protags are Marth".

 

[Jotari]

It's been almost a decade since Smash 4, you'd think FE haters would come up with something new after "all FE protags are Marth".

Going to have to agree with this. The Fire Emblem characters are distinct from one another. Ike and Corrin play very differently from Marth. Roy and Chrom....eh, they probably could stand to be a bit more different, but they are still their own characters with different focus and style of play. And Lucina's gimmick of not having Marth's gimmick is probably the best implementation of an Echo fighter. Easy to implement into the game, easy to understand and yet different enough to warrant an actual choice between the two characters (actually almost surprising they didn't just copy the idea for Simon and Richter Belmont, say give Simon the morning star and Richter the whip with Simon having a tipper and Richter not).

 

[Perkilator]

It's been almost a decade since Smash 4, you'd think FE haters would come up with something new after "all FE protags are Marth".

I would've at least preferred Azura over Corrin for some more variety, but I can still appreciate the latter for being different enough for an FE character.

 

[Jotari]

I would've at least preferred Azura over Corrin for some more variety, but I can still appreciate the latter for being different enough for an FE character.

The thing about Azura is that she's a support unit in Fates. So you have the awkward choice between either outright ignoring that for Smash (not a bad idea given her power set, but Corrin as a were dragon with something they can use as a lance is interesting enough too), or including her support abilities and designing her to be used in team battles. The latter is the more interesting choice, but runs into some issues. Either she's really good as a support unit to the extent that every team battle will always feature Azura, or her supports are minor to the point where she's just a purposefully designed below average character to begin with (which definitely wouldn't have happened given she would have been DLC).

 

[Perkilator]

The thing about Azura is that she's a support unit in Fates. So you have the awkward choice between either outright ignoring that for Smash (not a bad idea given her power set, but Corrin as a were dragon with something they can use as a lance is interesting enough too), or including her support abilities and designing her to be used in team battles. The latter is the more interesting choice, but runs into some issues. Either she's really good as a support unit to the extent that every team battle will always feature Azura, or her supports are minor to the point where she's just a purposefully designed below average character to begin with (which definitely wouldn't have happened given she would have been DLC).

My idea would to have her be a frail and little bit slow fighter with the range and power to make up for it.

 

[Gengar84]

Well, you know how I feel about R&K v. B&J.

But Doom Slayer is an acceptable substitute for the Metal Slug.

Honestly, I REALLY wish that Smash did the same thing for FE that it did for DQ.

Just give me one generic FE hero moveset. And just give them a new alt costume for whoever the latest protag-kun is.

That would have worked with every FE character so far except Robin...who, frankly wouldn't have needed to be in at all if they'd had Chrom at the start.

I’m not sure if you saw my idea I posted a while back but I really like the concept of coming up with multiple “Hero” or “Bowser Jr.” type characters for Fire Emblem based on class and weapon type. Obviously there would be some exceptions, primarily several of the main protagonists and villains who have a lot of unique traits and abilities that wouldn’t really fit into a standard class moveset. For most other units, a Hero type situation would be perfect and actually give us a chance to see a lot of fan favorite but more minor characters still show up as playable in Smash. I do think Marth, Roy, Lucina, and Chrom could probably be consolidated down to one character with alts in such a scenario but Ike, Corrin, Robin, and Byleth are too unique and would have to remain separate characters.

The biggest problem with an idea like this is that we already have so many Fire Emblem characters on the roster. Adding a separate character for an axe, spear, and tome moveset might require making some cuts, which is never a popular idea. I don’t think we’d really be losing too much by demoting Roy, Lucina, and Chrom in favor of a Hero class of these weapon types. There’s also the archer class which is another option to consider and has a lot of great characters.

There’s also the argument that Awakening doesn’t really need three separate characters so Robin could potentially be cut for an axe, spear, or tome hero. If you were willing to make some concessions, I could see Robin working as the primary outfit for the time hero. They would lose the Levin Sword and not be quite as accurate but could still have all of their spells (either that or give the mages an equivalent to the Levin sword).

 

[Jotari]

I’m not sure if you saw my idea I posted a while back but I really like the concept of coming up with multiple “Hero” or “Bowser Jr.” type characters for Fire Emblem based on class and weapon type. Obviously there would be some exceptions, primarily several of the main protagonists and villains who have a lot of unique traits and abilities that wouldn’t really fit into a standard class moveset. For most other units, a Hero type situation would be perfect and actually give us a chance to see a lot of fan favorite but more minor characters still show up as playable in Smash. I do think Marth, Roy, Lucina, and Chrom could probably be consolidated down to one character with alts in such a scenario but Ike, Corrin, Robin, and Byleth are too unique and would have to remain separate characters.

There’s also the argument that Awakening doesn’t really need three separate characters so Robin could potentially be cut for an axe, spear, or tome hero. If you were willing to make some concessions, I could see Robin working as the primary outfit for the time hero. They would lose the Levin Sword and not be quite as accurate but could still have all of their spells (either that or give the mages an equivalent to the Levin sword).

Given Awakening introduced the pair up mechanic, Robin and Chrom could actually be pretty justified as a Sheik Zelda scenario. They just happened to get introduced to the series in the game that, for tech reasons, had dropped transformation as a feature.

 

[Gengar84]

Given Awakening introduced the pair up mechanic, Robin and Chrom could actually be pretty justified as a Sheik Zelda scenario. They just happened to get introduced to the series in the game that, for tech reasons, had dropped transformation as a feature.

Yeah, I could see something like that working pretty well. I’m personally a fan of transform style characters even if they are generally unpopular. I still miss Zelda and Sheik’s transformation.

 

[Stratos]

When I saw the anime series Dragon Quest: The Adventure of Dai (2020), I had searched for it on Wikipedia and then I learned that it was released in 1991 and that it first appeared as a manga. Dai is only recognizable in the Dragon Quest manga and anime series since he made his first appearance there. But I wish he had even done a cameo in some video games of the Dragon Quest series.

 

[ahemtoday]

Yeah because the roster keeps balloning!
But lets say the next game has only 30 Characters!
Im sure while it would still sell well it DEFINITLY wouldnt outsell the previous one unless the Roster is almost completly Third Party!
And you dont even know! The Idea Its Really Amazing!

Well, what is the idea, then?

 

[SPEN18]

I would've at least preferred Azura over Corrin for some more variety

How is Azura more variety than Corrin? Because she doesn't have a sword? I mean, I think you could argue that Azura is a better Fates rep than Corrin, but not because of uniqueness.

 

[dream1ng]

It's been almost a decade since Smash 4, you'd think Fire Emblem haters would come up with something new after "all FE protags are Marth".

I know, it's ridiculous. Clearly, only half of all the FE protags are Marth.

 

[chocolatejr9]

So Nintendo's official Game Boy Advance emulator for the Nintendo Switch just leaked. Now it's just a matter of waiting for NSO to add GBA. pic.twitter.com/mEJcKrRtzL

— MaxiBash (@trashbandatcoot) April 18, 2022

Place your bets: Standard or Expansion Pass?

(Also, at least we'd finally get Golden Sun on Switch...)

 

[HyperSomari64]

Speaking of re-releases...
It was a big missed opportunity to bring both SNES Shin Megami Tensei games for the western NSO to promote the release of SMT3 HD and SMT5.

 

[skylanders fan]

So Nintendo's official Game Boy Advance emulator for the Nintendo Switch just leaked. Now it's just a matter of waiting for NSO to add GBA. pic.twitter.com/mEJcKrRtzL

— MaxiBash (@trashbandatcoot) April 18, 2022

Place your bets: Standard or Expansion Pass?

(Also, at least we'd finally get Golden Sun on Switch...)

100 percent expansion pass no way they give us anything else for the standard

 

[Diddy Kong]

That's true, there could be exceptions that subvert the presumed qualities which make characters seem likelier for the boot.


I see no reality in which Fox, Inkling or Captain Falcon is cut. They also won't cut Ganon/dorf, but they might change his moveset or incarnation. And I would be in outright disbelief if they cut Ness, Marth, or, to a slightly lesser extent, Pit.

Yeah sorry I forgot about Fox, Marth and the Inklings, was probably tired or something.

Ganondorf I could see replaced with a humanoid Calamity Ganon(dorf) if that's what he's gonna be in BotW2.

I’m not sure if you saw my idea I posted a while back but I really like the concept of coming up with multiple “Hero” or “Bowser Jr.” type characters for Fire Emblem based on class and weapon type. Obviously there would be some exceptions, primarily several of the main protagonists and villains who have a lot of unique traits and abilities that wouldn’t really fit into a standard class moveset. For most other units, a Hero type situation would be perfect and actually give us a chance to see a lot of fan favorite but more minor characters still show up as playable in Smash. I do think Marth, Roy, Lucina, and Chrom could probably be consolidated down to one character with alts in such a scenario but Ike, Corrin, Robin, and Byleth are too unique and would have to remain separate characters.

The biggest problem with an idea like this is that we already have so many Fire Emblem characters on the roster. Adding a separate character for an axe, spear, and tome moveset might require making some cuts, which is never a popular idea. I don’t think we’d really be losing too much by demoting Roy, Lucina, and Chrom in favor of a Hero class of these weapon types. There’s also the archer class which is another option to consider and has a lot of great characters.

There’s also the argument that Awakening doesn’t really need three separate characters so Robin could potentially be cut for an axe, spear, or tome hero. If you were willing to make some concessions, I could see Robin working as the primary outfit for the time hero. They would lose the Levin Sword and not be quite as accurate but could still have all of their spells (either that or give the mages an equivalent to the Levin sword).

I could see them merge Marth, Lucina, Roy and Chrom into one character, sure. But I'd use Lucina as the base character, not literally when you select the characters, that'd be Marth, but purely moveset wise? Lucina is the best middle ground to base them all off.

A potential future of these types of Hero / Bowser Jr.'s is have each alt actually serve as an Echo Fighter, that would be ideal.

Otherwise , about the rest, yeah I'd probably sacrifice both Corrin and Robin to have Edelgard and Dimitri on the roster.

I would also revert Byleth's moveset to have them be based around a fighting style with the Creator Sword, Dimitri will use the Areadbhar moves Byleth used, Edelgard the Amyr. Byleth will also use several magic attacks, which is a canon feat of them in their promoted class, so that Fire Emblem still has it's ranged magic fighter.

 

[dream1ng]

So Nintendo's official Game Boy Advance emulator for the Nintendo Switch just leaked. Now it's just a matter of waiting for NSO to add GBA. pic.twitter.com/mEJcKrRtzL

— MaxiBash (@trashbandatcoot) April 18, 2022

Place your bets: Standard or Expansion Pass?

(Also, at least we'd finally get Golden Sun on Switch...)

If at least GB isn't standard, that's pretty shady. However, Nintendo is intent on further incentivizing the expansion pass, so I won't be surprised either way.

Also, hopefully these come sooner than later, but the drip-feed is real, so these may still be a ways out. They've already been murmured about for a long time.

 

[Quillion]

Yeah, I could see something like that working pretty well. I’m personally a fan of transform style characters even if they are generally unpopular. I still miss Zelda and Sheik’s transformation.

They should stay split. Pythra, thanks to their individual moveset designs, do it better.

Yeah sorry I forgot about Fox, Marth and the Inklings, was probably tired or something.

Ganondorf I could see replaced with a humanoid Calamity Ganon(dorf) if that's what he's gonna be in BotW2.


I could see them merge Marth, Lucina, Roy and Chrom into one character, sure. But I'd use Lucina as the base character, not literally when you select the characters, that'd be Marth, but purely moveset wise? Lucina is the best middle ground to base them all off.

A potential future of these types of Hero / Bowser Jr.'s is have each alt actually serve as an Echo Fighter, that would be ideal.

Otherwise , about the rest, yeah I'd probably sacrifice both Corrin and Robin to have Edelgard and Dimitri on the roster.

I would also revert Byleth's moveset to have them be based around a fighting style with the Creator Sword, Dimitri will use the Areadbhar moves Byleth used, Edelgard the Amyr. Byleth will also use several magic attacks, which is a canon feat of them in their promoted class, so that Fire Emblem still has it's ranged magic fighter.

Fire Emblem should just start doing the Pythra thing and feature deuteragonists over protags honestly. Robin was good enough as far as Avatars go.