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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Diddy Kong

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Byleth and Corrin where fine choices , the whole plot of their respective games centralized around them. Robin same way, but an argument could've been made for Chrom too.

I could cut Robin because Chrom and Lucina would still be there. Would probably readd him as DLC if I could, and have an epic Grima boss fight coupled with that, and a Grima alt for Robin too.

Not too sure what the next Fire Emblem is gonna be, it could honestly be a remake of an older entry, which has been hinted at before. That's why I think it wouldn't be bad to base newcomers around the game that's actually gonna be the most recent whenever a new Smash arises, and that would be FE Warriors Three Hopes.

I'd do the same for a newcomer for Zelda, give us Impa from Age of Calamity.

And why? Because these games aren't just spin offs alone, they continue the story of two critical acclaimed games of their respective series. That's a massive setup up from the previous entries of Hyrule and Fire Emblem Warriors.
 

Gengar84

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Byleth and Corrin where fine choices , the whole plot of their respective games centralized around them. Robin same way, but an argument could've been made for Chrom too.

I could cut Robin because Chrom and Lucina would still be there. Would probably readd him as DLC if I could, and have an epic Grima boss fight coupled with that, and a Grima alt for Robin too.

Not too sure what the next Fire Emblem is gonna be, it could honestly be a remake of an older entry, which has been hinted at before. That's why I think it wouldn't be bad to base newcomers around the game that's actually gonna be the most recent whenever a new Smash arises, and that would be FE Warriors Three Hopes.

I'd do the same for a newcomer for Zelda, give us Impa from Age of Calamity.

And why? Because these games aren't just spin offs alone, they continue the story of two critical acclaimed games of their respective series. That's a massive setup up from the previous entries of Hyrule and Fire Emblem Warriors.
I agree that I’d love to see Impa and for Nintendo to embrace the spinoff titles like the Warriors games in Smash Bros. My personal preference is Impa’s original Hyrule Warriors incarnation, either using her giant sword or naginata. I know her Age of Calamity design and moveset seems to be more popular with the general public but I just love her tough warrior persona from the first game.
 

Diddy Kong

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I agree that I’d love to see Impa and for Nintendo to embrace the spinoff titles like the Warriors games in Smash Bros. My personal preference is Impa’s original Hyrule Warriors incarnation, either using her giant sword or naginata. I know her Age of Calamity design and moveset seems to be more popular with the general public but I just love her tough warrior persona from the first game.
I also prefer tougher Impa, and the naginata was awesome, but the moveset of Age of Calamity Impa has seriously grown on me. And it fits the Sheikah theme extremely well.

But cutesy Impa seems to be the most popular , so if she'd get in I expect her first.

In general I feel the Zelda cast will be mostly BotW based next game. Zelda could get a revamp based on it, Ganondorf could be outrightly replaced with Calamity Zombie Dorf, Impa would be a newcomer if I had anything to say about it, and Sheik and the small Links would be gone. Link getting a sort of speed boost, a recovery buff and a weight nerf to become an amalgamation of all three Links.
 

chocolatejr9

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If at least GB isn't standard, that's pretty shady. However, Nintendo is intent on further incentivizing the expansion pass, so I won't be surprised either way.

Also, hopefully these come sooner than later, but the drip-feed is real, so these may still be a ways out. They've already been murmured about for a long time.
Well, for what it's worth, I think we only have one more already-announced N64 game left (that being Kirby 64), so...
 

Gengar84

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I also prefer tougher Impa, and the naginata was awesome, but the moveset of Age of Calamity Impa has seriously grown on me. And it fits the Sheikah theme extremely well.

But cutesy Impa seems to be the most popular , so if she'd get in I expect her first.

In general I feel the Zelda cast will be mostly BotW based next game. Zelda could get a revamp based on it, Ganondorf could be outrightly replaced with Calamity Zombie Dorf, Impa would be a newcomer if I had anything to say about it, and Sheik and the small Links would be gone. Link getting a sort of speed boost, a recovery buff and a weight nerf to become an amalgamation of all three Links.
You know what I would actually love to see in the next Smash? All of the Zelda characters get alternate outfits of their designs from previous games. I’d love to have both Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess Ganondorf in Smash along with whatever design they go with in BotW2. We could even use his Hyrule Warriors design for another option. I think Smash could use more actual alt outfits in general beyond just palate swaps and the Zelda cast could really benefit from that. Samus is another character with a ton of potential for actual alternate outfits.
 
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Jotari

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It's a bit late now, but when Shadows of Valentia was the newest Fire Emblem game, I was thinking Celica could make for a pretty good echo of Robin as they both use swords and magic. The main difference (and one of the main gimmicks of Shadows of Valentia overall) is that while Robin casts magic using tomes that can run out, Celica casts magic using HP. So basically, like Lucina and Marth, Celica has the same moveset as Robin only swapping out the durability gimmick of Pichu's gimmick. Good for higher level players who don't want to deal with durability and aren't afraid of self harm.
I think Smash could use more actual alt outfits in general beyond just palate swaps and the Zelda cast could really benefit from that. Samus is another character with a ton of potential for actual alternate outfits.
Hard agree. So many of these characters have been around for so long and have so many redesigns, it'd be great to play as more of them. Aside from Zelda, Samus has a bunch of different suits she could wear.
 
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dream1ng

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Well, for what it's worth, I think we only have one more already-announced N64 game left (that being Kirby 64), so...
I suspect Goldeneye is also going to show up given the excessive smoke around it, and I've heard it's been deferred due to the ongoing conflict like AW, but I have no idea how true that is.

But also, Nintendo hasn't had any problem with a more bi-monthly drip for other systems, so if N64 defaults to that, it wouldn't come as a big shock. I guess it could also depend on how many more Rare games they've licensed, because the first-party stable is pretty limited without them.

But I don't think one changing frequency means another system is imminent, though. If anything, I would expect September, when many Nintendo accounts would otherwise expire, to be when they bring a new system out to keep people attached. That's how it's gone in the past.
 

Perkilator

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It's a bit late now, but when Shadows of Valentia was the newest Fire Emblem game, I was thinking Celica could make for a pretty good echo of Robin as they both use swords and magic. The main difference (and one of the main gimmicks of Shadows of Valentia overall) is that while Robin casts magic using tomes that can run out, Celica casts magic using HP. So basically, like Lucina and Marth, Celica has the same moveset as Robin only swapping out the durability gimmick of Pichu's gimmick. Good for higher level players who don't want to deal with durability and aren't afraid of self harm.
See, my argument; I’m not against the idea of Celica as a Robin Echo (she likely would’ve been last minute anyways), but at the same time I feel like she could work as her own fighter if you looked more closely at the animations from Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia if there was enough dev time to do so.
 

Jotari

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See, my argument; I’m not against the idea of Celica as a Robin Echo (she likely would’ve been last minute anyways), but at the same time I feel like she could work as her own fighter if you looked more closely at the animations from Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia if there was enough dev time to do so.
Well obviously she could work as her own fighter. Literally any Echo could be reworked as their own fighter (and amongst the ones we have, Dark Samus is the most obvious case), and I hope some of them are in the future (just giving them different specials would go a long way to making them feel like different units). But the advantage of an Echo is making a character fast and cheap, which Celica would have been able to accomplish quite easily as a Robin Echo.
 
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Dan Quixote

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See, my argument; I’m not against the idea of Celica as a Robin Echo (she likely would’ve been last minute anyways), but at the same time I feel like she could work as her own fighter if you looked more closely at the animations from Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia if there was enough dev time to do so.
But then we lose out on the ever important book-chucking!
 

Ivander

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It's been almost a decade since Smash 4, you'd think Fire Emblem haters would come up with something new after "all FE protags are Marth".
They really aren't character-wise and in some cases, weapon and skill-wise. But Marth's template is still used as a base for a lot of them gameplay-wise in Fire Emblem. The only ones who notably depart from Marth's template are Lyndis, Hector, Ephraim, Ike, Micaiah, Robin and Byleth.
But Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Seliph, Leif, Roy, Eliwood, Eirika, Chrom, Lucina, Corrin and Alfonse do use Marth's template as a base in terms of gameplay, mechanics, even with their legendary weapon being quite similar in design to Falchion. And only Celica and Corrin can really differentiate from Marth gameplay-wise thanks to Celica also having magic and Corrin having their Dragon powers and Yato's Fire Emblem form. Although Eliwood can be differentiated from Marth when he has Durandal, since Durandal is more akin to Ike's Ragnall rather than Marth's Falchion.
 

Jotari

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They really aren't character-wise and in some cases, weapon and skill-wise. But Marth's template is still used as a base for a lot of them gameplay-wise in Fire Emblem. The only ones who notably depart from Marth's template are Lyndis, Hector, Ephraim, Ike, Micaiah, Robin and Byleth.
But Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Seliph, Leif, Roy, Eliwood, Eirika, Chrom, Lucina, Corrin and Alfonse do use Marth's template as a base in terms of gameplay, mechanics, even with their legendary weapon being quite similar in design to Falchion. And only Celica and Corrin can really differentiate from Marth gameplay-wise thanks to Celica also having magic and Corrin having their Dragon powers and Yato's Fire Emblem form. Although Eliwood can be differentiated from Marth when he has Durandal, since Durandal is more akin to Ike's Ragnall rather than Marth's Falchion.
That list seems almost random. As I've noted, Celica uses magic, so she's at least as different to Marth as Robin is. Alm is also able to use bows. Meanwhile Sigurd only ever fights on a horse! Which is entirely different to Marth. His son, Seliph, begins as an infantry, but also gets a horse eventually. Leif and Roy could fight like Marth, true, and Roy indeed does, but they really don't have to as they both have access to magic sword. Leif uses a sword of light and Roy a sword of fire, both of which function very differently to Marth by being ranged weapons (and in terms of pure Fire Emblem gameplay, Roy just kind of sucks). Eirika is pretty similar to Marth in gameplay, but even she also gets a horse on promotion and, while they're only sub weapons, Lucina and Chrom can both uses lances. And Corrin is obviously very different to Marth with the whole dragon gimmick. They can also use magic and staves.
 
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SPEN18

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I posted a link to a hypothetical moveset a while back detailing what she could bring to the table.
Maybe my comment wasn't clear: I do think Azura would be plenty unique and fun to play. What I meant was that Corrin is unique also, so arguing for Azura over Corrin IMO has to do with more than moveset.

--

As for Celica, well, I think Gaiden and SoV are both such niche games in the franchise overall that I don't feel they should be represented before we get reps from some of the other games.
 

Ivander

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That list seems almost random. As I've noted, Celica uses magic, so she's at least as different to Marth as Robin is. Alm is also able to use bows. Meanwhile Sigurd only ever fights on a horse! Which is entirely different to Marth. His son, Seliph, begins as an infantry, but also gets a horse eventually. Leif and Roy could fight like Marth, true, and Roy indeed does, but they really don't have to as they both have access to magic sword. Leif uses a sword of light and Roy a sword of fire, both of which function very differently to Marth by being ranged weapons (and in terms of pure Fire Emblem gameplay, Roy just kind of sucks). Eirika is pretty similar to Marth in gameplay, but even she also gets a horse on promotion and, while they're only sub weapons, Lucina and Chrom can both uses lances. And Corrin is obviously very different to Marth with the whole dragon gimmick. They can also use magic and staves.
This is talking about Smash Bros. where just about most of them could use Marth or Roy's moveset without hardly any issue. The only ones where it'd be an issue or come across as very lazy would be Celica and Corrin, since Magic is a big part of Celica and Corrin with their dragon power.
  • Obviously, the ones with horses will not have their horse in Smash Bros, aside from maybe a Final Smash, since there would need to be incredible balancing, as well as time, bug checks, modelling, etc to even make a horse work in Smash Bros.
  • Roy and Leif don't require their projectile attack.
  • Chrom and Lucina don't require a Lance and Alm doesn't require his bow(since you can play them without them ever using their secondary weapon and it is required of them to play a sword, especially for the Final Boss where their main weapon is required for full damage or to even kill the final boss).
It's really not random as you think. All of them can work with Marth or Roy's moveset without a whole lot of issue since in their own game, when it comes to their main weapons, gameplay, mechanics, etc in their own games, they aren't much different from Marth, aside from some having a gimmick like Sigurd, Seliph and Eirika having horses for extra movement and whatnot.
 

Jotari

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This is talking about Smash Bros. where just about most of them could use Marth or Roy's moveset without hardly any issue. The only ones where it'd be an issue or come across as very lazy would be Celica and Corrin, since Magic is a big part of Celica and Corrin with their dragon power.
  • Obviously, the ones with horses will not have their horse in Smash Bros, aside from maybe a Final Smash, since there would need to be incredible balancing, as well as time, bug checks, modelling, etc to even make a horse work in Smash Bros.
  • Roy and Leif don't require their projectile attack.
  • Chrom and Lucina don't require a Lance and Alm doesn't require his bow(since you can play them without them ever using their secondary weapon and it is required of them to play a sword, especially for the Final Boss where their main weapon is required for full damage or to even kill the final boss).
It's really not random as you think. All of them can work with Marth or Roy's moveset without a whole lot of issue since in their own game, when it comes to their main weapons, gameplay, mechanics, etc in their own games, they aren't much different from Marth, aside from some having a gimmick like Sigurd, Seliph and Eirika having horses for extra movement and whatnot.
That same logic could apply to Lyn, Ike, Robin and Byleth. They could all be Marth costumes too with no issue (even Ephraim if you're prepared to just ignore the fact that he uses a lance).
 
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Quillion

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I'll be willing to admit that Ike using Ragnell like an axe was an arbitrary deviation from canon, where he is a very skillful swordsman.
 

Jotari

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I'll be willing to admit that Ike using Ragnell like an axe was an arbitrary deviation from canon, where he is a very skillful swordsman.
I'd like to see Ike actually use his axe for some of his moves. Though I guess that's better left to the "classic moves characters aren't using" thread.
 

ARandomFruit

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I still feel like it was a missed opportunity to not give Marth his FE1 outfit as an alt, that or go the extra mile and give him his hero king outfit from FEH as a alt.

Also while Alm could work theoretically work as a Marth skin I doubt it would even happen in this kind of scenario considering he now wields his sword in a different hand than Marth. If they really really wanted to have Alm in I could see them using his gaiden appearance since its the same way but I think its more likely for him to be excluded instead.
 

Laniv

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Ooh, we're talking Fire Emblem now? Good, I've got some things to say.

I think Lucina and Chrom should get unique, non-Marth/Roy movesets that are similar to each other (think Simon and Richter), and then Marth can maybe get a new echo in... oh, I don't know, Leif or something. (Side note: aside from Chrom, who would work as a possible Roy echo? Alm?)

Also, I've started to warm up to the idea of Tiki in Smash
 

Gengar84

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I think Fire Emblem could really use a playable villain in Smash. Somehow, we ended up with eight characters without a single villain. I think the obvious choice is the Black Knight from Path of Radiance. He’s always been such a cool character with an amazing design. I could see him working as a semiclone of Ike similar to how Roy is to Marth. The Black Knight would likely be be even slower, heavier, and more powerful than Ike but would probably have a lot of super armor on his attacks to compensate. While his base movement is very slow, he has the ability to traverse the stage quickly by teleporting. He also has a blade beam projectile to help make up for his poor movement.
 
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dream1ng

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I think if you had Marth (and Roy), then added Lyn instead of Ike in Brawl, added Chrom w/ Ike's properties and playstyle in 4, skipped Corrin (add Elma if a 2015 first-party needed promotion) and went straight on to Byleth in Ultimate, you'd have a FE roster than far fewer people would complain about.

Four originals, one (eventual) semi-clone, five total - a large but still reasonable amount. All the most popular games represented, other than Fates, but, y'know, whatever on that one. It's Fates.

Yeah Ike wouldn't be there, but Lyn isn't here currently and people have survived. His general feel would exist in Chrom. There's no one that currently works like Lyn would. Plus, honestly, without the effects of Smash, I think Lyn would out-popularize Ike. Robin's gone too, and the loss of that playstyle is unfortunate, but he wouldn't have gotten in anyway had Chrom not been so derivative, which is remedied here.

I know people here won't agree with me. I don't expect as much, at least. But that's how I would've proceeded, and I also think it streamlines the series well. Well tbh I would've added any of Edelgard, Dimitri or Claude over cardboard incarnate Byleth, but again, w/e. Wasn't Sakurai's call anyway.
 
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Gengar84

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I think if you had Marth (and Roy), then added Lyn instead of Ike in Brawl, added Chrom w/ Ike's properties and playstyle in 4, skipped Corrin (add Elma if a 2015 first-party needed promotion) and went straight on to Byleth in Ultimate, you'd have a FE roster than far fewer people would complain about.

Four originals, one (eventual) semi-clone, five total - a large but still reasonable amount. All the most popular games represented, other than Fates, but, y'know, whatever on that one. It's Fates.

Yeah Ike wouldn't be there, but Lyn isn't here currently and people have survived. His general feel would exist in Chrom. There's no one that currently works like Lyn would. Plus, honestly, without the effects of Smash, I think Lyn would out-popularize Ike. Robin's gone too, and the loss of that playstyle is unfortunate, but he wouldn't have gotten in anyway had Chrom not been so derivative, which is remedied here.

I know people here won't agree with me. I don't expect as much, at least. But that's how I would've proceeded, and I also think it streamlines the series well. Well tbh I would've added any of Edelgard, Dimitri or Claude over cardboard incarnate Byleth, but again, w/e. Wasn't Sakurai's call anyway.
I completely agree about the house leaders. I loved Three Houses but silent avatar characters like Byleth are really hard for me to care about. They tend to be among my least favorite characters in their own games.

I think Lynn would be a cool character but Path of Radiance was my first Fire Emblem game and really led me to become a fan of the series. Ike’s games are still my favorite Fire Emblem games to date. If he was never in Smash, I’m not sure if I would have ever tried Fire Emblem since his inclusion in Brawl is what led me to buy his game.

Don’t worry about having a different opinion. I think people having their own ideas and opinions makes discussion a lot more interesting. As long as we can be respectful of each other and not dismiss anyone for thinking differently, I think it’s only a good thing. I certainly have a ton of unpopular opinions around here, concerning Fire Emblem, RARE, and several other things.
 

SPEN18

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I don't think another Tellius rep would happen. Remember that those games were part of the decline in sales for the series prior to Awakening. Of course, now they are very well-regarded and Ike got crazy-popular, but Tellius fans are fortunate to even have the one rep and are indebted to good timing with Brawl. Not anything personal against the Tellius games (actually Radiant Dawn is one of the best FE games IMO), but I feel that at this point representing them in Smash is mostly based on their "cult classic" status: worthy of the one rep who is vastly popular but more is kind of pushing it.

Not sure how I would feel about it had Ike not gotten into Brawl, but Ike getting into Brawl was a major swing for the character and so it's hard to deal with that hypothetical.
 

dream1ng

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I completely agree about the house leaders. I loved Three Houses but silent avatar characters like Byleth are really hard for me to care about. They tend to be among my least favorite characters in their own games.
And Sakurai said Byleth wasn't his choice for a 3H character, either. I'm quite curious who his preference would've been.

I think Lynn would be a cool character but Path of Radiance was my first Fire Emblem game and really led me to become a fan of the series. Ike’s games are still my favorite Fire Emblem games to date. If he was never in Smash, I’m not sure if I would have ever tried Fire Emblem since his inclusion in Brawl is what led me to buy his game.
That's cool, but keep in mind a significant number of people played FE7 over PoR, so there's of course anecdotal evidence to the contrary, such as yours, but I'd reason Lyn, in this context, would've resonated more widely in terms of recognition. Though that's not the whole crux of my choice.

Hell, a big part of why Lyn is as popular as she is is because she was a huge amount of people's first FE protag once the series finally jumped past Japan. Well, among other reasons which need not be elaborated.

Don’t worry about having a different opinion. I think people having their own ideas and opinions makes discussion a lot more interesting. As long as we can be respectful of each other and not dismiss anyone for thinking differently, I think it’s only a good thing. I certainly have a ton of unpopular opinions around here, concerning Fire Emblem, RARE, and several other things.
Thanks. FE is also a touchy subject around these parts that really gets people going. Especially when its current implementation is challenged and reduced, which I've done here. Though most of the blowback is chalked up to a distaste for the series, which I think is a bit of a strawman, and certainly isn't where I'm coming from. I think they just could've done it more effectively, judiciously, and without generating the rancor people now hold.
 
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PeridotGX

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I don't think another Tellius rep would happen. Remember that those games were part of the decline in sales for the series prior to Awakening. Of course, now they are very well-regarded and Ike got crazy-popular, but Tellius fans are fortunate to even have the one rep and are indebted to good timing with Brawl. Not anything personal against the Tellius games (actually Radiant Dawn is one of the best FE games IMO), but I feel that at this point representing them in Smash is mostly based on their "cult classic" status: worthy of the one rep who is vastly popular but more is kind of pushing it.

Not sure how I would feel about it had Ike not gotten into Brawl, but Ike getting into Brawl was a major swing for the character and so it's hard to deal with that hypothetical.
I think Tellius has a very unlikely, but still existent, path to getting another rep. Due to already being in 3D, remastering the Tellius games would be much easier than remaking any other (non 3DS) FE game, and as such will likely happen eventually. If the remasters do unexpectedly well (or if Nintendo wishes to promote it), they could take the already-made Black Knight model (as an assist trophy) and make him a semi-clone of Ike. I can't see the games getting a second unique rep, and even this is quite unlikely, but I think it's possible.
 

Sucumbio

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I was really surprised Black Knight got in as an assist but I guess it's Sakurai giving some vets a nemesis like with mega man and wily or say like the belmonts and alucard, a friend in this case but a tertiary character who didn't make it in as a fighter.

I would love BK as a playable character as well as Alucard (or even Dracula). What other vets don't have an assist from their series or another rep? All I'm thinking right now is Sonic and Snake but there must be more?
 

Gengar84

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I was really surprised Black Knight got in as an assist but I guess it's Sakurai giving some vets a nemesis like with mega man and wily or say like the belmonts and alucard, a friend in this case but a tertiary character who didn't make it in as a fighter.

I would love BK as a playable character as well as Alucard (or even Dracula). What other vets don't have an assist from their series or another rep? All I'm thinking right now is Sonic and Snake but there must be more?
Captain Falcon is a big one. He’s been a playable character since the very first game but F-Zero never got a second character, echo or otherwise. More recently, Little Mac is another example. Punch Out not only doesn’t have a second playable character but it no longer has an assist trophy. Personally Kimmel never really got a second character unless you count Alph. Other characters like Ice Climbers, Mr. Game and Watch, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer, and Duck Hunt have no other characters but there really aren’t any other options in those cases.
 
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ceterisparibus

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Honestly, people trying hard to fit certain FE characters into the mold of "swordsman", "archer", "mage" and "marth" etc in order to compress characters into one fighter slot feels like it misses the point completely? Smash is a series that thrives off its excesses instead of trying to "minmax" slots, and trying to fit existing characters into classes gives me the impression that it's trying to "address" the too much rep complaints (i mean, come on it's been years and the goalposts change all the time, first it was zelda spam in melee, then species in brawl and now FE).

It's pretty strange that we don't start with other series if that's the rabbit hole we want to go down (why do we need 3 marios, can't we fit them all into the same group? 3 links?? Why not put all the ryus/kens/terrys into one slot called shotos and call it a day?). Like even if the argument is that they're way too unique to be differentiated, it seems fair to say all of the existing FE characters play very differently with unique animations to me. For the record, i wouldn't even mind if the hero could be separated somehow to make all of them unique.
 

Gengar84

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Honestly, people trying hard to fit certain FE characters into the mold of "swordsman", "archer", "mage" and "marth" etc in order to compress characters into one fighter slot feels like it misses the point completely? Smash is a series that thrives off its excesses instead of trying to "minmax" slots, and trying to fit existing characters into classes gives me the impression that it's trying to "address" the too much rep complaints (i mean, come on it's been years and the goalposts change all the time, first it was zelda spam in melee, then species in brawl and now FE).

It's pretty strange that we don't start with other series if that's the rabbit hole we want to go down (why do we need 3 marios, can't we fit them all into the same group? 3 links?? Why not put all the ryus/kens/terrys into one slot called shotos and call it a day?). Like even if the argument is that they're way too unique to be differentiated, it seems fair to say all of the existing FE characters play very differently with unique animations to me. For the record, i wouldn't even mind if the hero could be separated somehow to make all of them unique.
My reasoning was never that we had too many characters but rather that it gives a ton of characters a chance to become playable fighters that otherwise would have been passed over. Fire Emblem has so many great characters and the recent lords are some of the least interesting. It seems like the default FE slot is always just to go with the lord of the most recent game, who is often a silent avatar character. With the "Hero" approach, we could actually have 32 playable Fire Emblem characters while only using 4 slots. If we added a fifth weapon, that would bring our playable fighters up to 40. That's something clones could never accomplish. I don't want to know what the reaction would be to a Smash roster with 40+ Fire Emblem characters, clones or otherwise.

Fire Emblem has a rare advantage over many other series in that many characters of the same class play nearly identically to each other. To me, this makes the “Hero” option the ideal approach to maximize how many characters we can play as while still making them feel faithful. Even if some characters lose some of their unique attributes, that wouldn’t be any different than echoes we already get like Dark Samus.

One example I’ve given here before is Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings. I’ve personally never liked Bowser Jr. as a character so I had no interest in him joining Smash. When I saw his reveal trailer and it was revealed that the Koopalings would be his alts, I actually got hyped. I’ve always loved the Koopalings and they made me much more accepting of Jr. getting in Smash. Rather than disappointment, I actually felt excited. I believe this same type of thing can happen with Fire Emblem characters with lots of people. Even if the primary character is someone you don’t care about, there are seven more chances per character to get one of your favorites.

Finally, I never liked the idea of having two Marios or three Links. They aren’t really a problem because they are just clones but I think Dr. Mario should have always been a costume. I personally don’t think we need more than one Link and the only reason we have all three is because Toon Link was basically Young Link’s replacement and they both had to return due to “everyone is here”.
 
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ceterisparibus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 11, 2019
Messages
147
My reasoning was never that we had too many characters but rather that it gives a ton of characters a chance to become playable fighters that otherwise would have been passed over. Fire Emblem has so many great characters and the recent lords are some of the least interesting. It seems like the default FE slot is always just to go with the lord of the most recent game, who is often a silent avatar character.

Fire Emblem has a rare advantage over many other series in that many characters of the same class play nearly identically to each other. To me, this makes the “Hero” option the ideal approach to maximize how many characters we can play as while still making them feel faithful. Even if some characters lose some of their unique attributes, that wouldn’t be any different than echoes we already get like Dark Samus.

One example I’ve given here before is Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings. I’ve personally never liked Bowser Jr. as a character so I had no interest in him joining Smash. When I saw his reveal trailer and it was revealed that the Koopalings would be his alts, I actually got hyped. I’ve always loved the Koopalings and they made me much more accepting of Jr. getting in Smash. Rather than disappointment, I actually felt excited. I believe this same type of thing can happen with Fire Emblem characters with lots of people. Even if the primary character is someone you don’t care about, there are seven more chances per character to get one of your favorites.

Finally, I never liked the idea of having two Marios or three Links. They aren’t really a problem because they are just clones but I think Dr. Mario should have always been a costume. I personally don’t think we need more than one Link and the only reason we have all three is because Toon Link was basically Young Link’s replacement and they both had to return due to “everyone is here”.
Yea no thanks, i'd rather have what we already have rather than take an overly reductive approach to everything where quantity is so overly prioritized for quality instead of the smash team lovingly giving each character sufficient attention. That sounds pretty terrible, and i've already mentioned that each of the existing characters already have their own unique attributes in-game to separate them. Try asking a marth main to play as roy and see if they get the same results. Or ask someone who likes lucina if they're ok to cut half of her existing content so that we can add in a separate skin for, i dunno, felix? That requires...much more time and effort to remodel new skins/voices/win animations etc?

By that argument why not go further? "Fire starter" to merge charizard and incineroar, "person with gun" to merge the samuses and inkling, and "shoto slot" for all the fighting game characters? That sounds up your alley, doesn't it? But i strongly doubt anyone would be particularly keen on that.
Smash has always been indulgent with these kinds of selections instead of trying to optimize everything into functions, and the series have always been richer because of that. Trying to slot in quantity for the sake of doing so (which also adds in a great deal of extra work, might i say) makes little sense.
 

Sucumbio

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Captain Falcon is a big one. He’s been a playable character since the very first game but F-Zero never got a second character, echo or otherwise. More recently, Little Mac is another example. Punch Out not only doesn’t have a second playable character but it no longer has an assist trophy. Personally Kimmel never really got a second character unless you count Alph. Other characters like Ice Climbers, Mr. Game and Watch, ROB, Wii Fit Trainer, and Duck Hunt have no other characters but there really aren’t any other options in those cases.
Hmmm so yeah I agree that Punch Out and F Zero are the big ones missing here.... At least in a first party sense and then Metal Gear wait no metal gear has an assist with Gray Fox ... Sonic has one too so actually that really does just leave out those two you mentioned and I guess Pikman... Hm. Not sure who I'd go with in any of them lol. Maybe Sandman...
 

DarthEnderX

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
7,818
For Marth and his three derivatives it could work. Not so much for everyone else.
Eh, it woulda been fine. People only picture Ike fighting differently BECAUSE of Smash. And Smash Byleth uses 3 weapons FE Byleth doesn't even have.

As for Corrin...just don't do Corrin.

It's been almost a decade since Smash 4, you'd think Fire Emblem haters would come up with something new after "all FE protags are Marth".
All DQ protags aren't Erdrick either. Didn't stop them from being alts.

Dai is only recognizable in the Dragon Quest manga and anime series since he made his first appearance there. But I wish he had even done a cameo in some video games of the Dragon Quest series.
Well...he WAS in Jump Force...

Place your bets: Standard or Expansion Pass?
Expansion sadly. So I won't be playing any of them.
 
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Jotari

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Messages
408
The obvious solution to Fire Emblem is to double down, make half the cast Fire Emblem characters and officially title Smash Bros. Fire Emblem X Nintendo
 
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ceterisparibus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 11, 2019
Messages
147
Eh, it woulda been fine. People only picture Ike fighting differently BECAUSE of Smash. And Smash Byleth uses 3 weapons FE Byleth doesn't even have.
You would maybe have a point before melee/brawl, but given how these characters already have recognizable builds and fighting styles, is there really a point in changing it for the sake of an unnamed fighting slot like "lord"? At this point they're all very different from each other.

I think the better recent example is probably something like the ARMs rep. Sakurai and co could have very well threw in multiple characters into an ARMs slot. The fact they didn't seems pretty clear cut to me.

All DQ protags aren't Erdrick either. Didn't stop them from being alts.
I think the DQ rep being included as a single dlc slot had more to do with that rather than it being an active choice. It's hard to say if they would be different characters if they were base roster (like simon and richter), or be included in separate passes.
 

Yamat08

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 11, 2021
Messages
312
That's almost assigning too much intent to them. Ganondorf, in his 25 year long history as Ganondorf has used swords twice, from the period of 2002-2006. After that the character outright disappeared, which is the truly bizarre thing. With the exception of his corpse being puppeteered in A Link Between Worlds, Breath of the Wild was the first appearance of Ganon in over ten years. As people have pointed out, as the human Ganondorf, he's appeared in more Smash games than Zelda games! And yet people bizarrely still think he's overplayed and want Zelda to explore other villains, as if they haven't been doing that for years. Which I guess just goes to show how looming his presence is a character despite the Zelda developers surprising lack of interest in him. You're right though in that Ganondorf doesn't have any clearly defined ability set. The closest is as Ganon, wielding a trident (which he didn't even do in his first appearance of more bestial forms) and warping around the place. Their main interest is creating unique boss battles rather than forging a solid identity for the character beyond "powerful" and "menacing". He's set to appear in Breath of the Wild 2 now and we can be sure if he's fought as a boss there they'll probably do something different again.
This is actually a good point. Ganon and Ganondorf are far from being present in every game..... hell, he's barely even existent in the portable titles. But I guess a lot of people are still sore over the fact that he pretty much usurps Zant's position as the main villain in Twilight Princess, which gives the false impression that he's egregiously over-used. In reality, despite the Triforce being such a major symbol of the entire series, with Ganon's association to the Triforce of Power making him all the more crucial as the main overarching villain (so like the Bowser to Link's Mario), he surprisingly hasn't appeared near as much as he could have (perhaps partially because the Triforce itself is not such a heavily relied-upon plot element for every game).

Also, as I'm sure I've pointed out before, Ganon's human avatar of Ganondorf was VERY new at the time of his inclusion in Melee. Though, given the fact that he was featured in the Space World demo, it does seem as though there were always more plans for him down the line (which seems like quite the contrast from Shiek, who lives on to this day solely because of her presence in Smash).

Besides, BotW Link being the current Link has the job of representing BotW being a turning point for Zelda, and I say this as someone who still feels alienated by his moveset changes and wishes we at least had TP and OoT Link as an explicit echo for him.
So you're calling for Classic Link to exist as a 4th Link in Smash?

But I'm with Gengar84 on just making more costumes for such characters.

Also, I can't help but notice, Jotari Jotari , that you're copying entire sections of posts only to respond to a small part of said section. The latter is fine TBF, but can you start just copying that small section instead?
A lot of users do this, really. I'd also prefer if they just trimmed it down to whatever point was necessary, but given that you have to click to expand the longer ones, they don't bloat up the length of pages in this thread, so I find them largely inoffensive.

A potential future of these types of Hero / Bowser Jr.'s is have each alt actually serve as an Echo Fighter, that would be ideal.
As much as I love the Koopalings, I can accept them just being a set of alts. I wouldn't expect Smash to do like Mario Kart and make every single one of those seven characters be their own unique character (even if all of them were just Echo Fighters who were set apart from Jr. even less than Daisy was from Peach).

Personally Kimmel never really got a second character unless you count Alph.
Uh....... auto-correct?

Yea no thanks, i'd rather have what we already have rather than take an overly reductive approach to everything where quantity is so overly prioritized for quality instead of the smash team lovingly giving each character sufficient attention. That sounds pretty terrible, and i've already mentioned that each of the existing characters already have their own unique attributes in-game to separate them. Try asking a marth main to play as roy and see if they get the same results. Or ask someone who likes lucina if they're ok to cut half of her existing content so that we can add in a separate skin for, i dunno, felix? That requires...much more time and effort to remodel new skins/voices/win animations etc?

By that argument why not go further? "Fire starter" to merge charizard and incineroar, "person with gun" to merge the samuses and inkling, and "shoto slot" for all the fighting game characters? That sounds up your alley, doesn't it? But i strongly doubt anyone would be particularly keen on that.
Smash has always been indulgent with these kinds of selections instead of trying to optimize everything into functions, and the series have always been richer because of that. Trying to slot in quantity for the sake of doing so (which also adds in a great deal of extra work, might i say) makes little sense.
Adding to this, if every Fire Emblem Fighter was just a class with a different character for each alt, that does seem like it has the potential for sensory overload in a game that's pushing a ridiculously large roster as is (one that still manages to have a grip on casual audiences, no less). I mean, I could imagine people not knowing what they're up against because one specific alt of a class happens to be played so little (and even if you could recognize them as a Fire Emblem character, it wouldn't help that there're 30-40 other such characters due to the classes being repped by numerous alts). At least with Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings, their basic gameplay could be immediately recognizeable due to the fact that they all share the Clown Car. In contrast, you're probably not gonna be able to tell that, say, Marth and Alm are meant to play similarly from a glance (more so since Smash already has about 20 other swordies).
 
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