Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DBPirate]

Yeah that does really suck. I think Smash is so focused on just representing the starting area of too many games that we end up missing out on great stages like Bowser’s castle or any DKC stage other than a generic jungle setting.

Tropical Freeze was absolutely robbed. Just came out at a bad time for Smash 4 and didn't fit the theme of Ultimate, unfortunately. Would've loved to see frozen DK Island, the autumn island, or the fruit factory.

SMTV.

Smash 6.

I believe.

I think SMT is definitely on the shortlist for newcomers, especially if V gets the sales Switch boost.

Regarding the representation discussion, I agree that it's a major problem, but I disagree that Smash really has a wealth of options to choose from that Nintendo is "ignoring". That's a gaming industry problem. Not a Smash problem. I think Impa would be a great POC inclusion (modeling her appearance after Skyward Sword). The Hyrule Warriors games offer a lot of material for her moveset.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Is it bad that for a long time I thought Ganondorf had brown skin? I mean... for the longest time I couldn't even tell he had greenish skin. I thought he had the same shade as the other Gerudo.

I thought the same, but I'm also colorblind.

What would be the plot?

Based on SSE, it'd be as eyerollingly melodramatic as a KH plot, but with no dialog.

Would've loved to see frozen DK Island, the autumn island, or the fruit factory.

WINDMILL ****ING HILLS!

 

[Will]

Based on SSE, it'd be as eyerollingly melodramatic as a KH plot, but with no dialog.

Could you imagine with dialogue, though? World of Light was such a tease in everything with that beginning cutscene conversation, but that would probably be pretty expensive as well for all of these voice actors, especially if you're like Falcon and haven't been updated in over 20 years because your voice actor is too busy being ****ing VEGETA-

I prefer how SSE did things, I still think it's one of the best fighting game story modes without ever explaining its plot just through excellent animation and how characters are portrayed. And they're all accurate and even manage to give some characters character arcs. Look at Lucas! They were so smart in showing Lucas's character growth throughout the story by making him go through the five stages of grief again.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Although the chances of it happening may not be that big, I would like retro themes from the NES Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games to be in Smash. Maybe even a retro medley from the first Fire Emblem.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Could you imagine with dialogue, though?

So just cringy KH then.

 

[ForsakenM]

What I don’t get is why anyone really cares why someone else wants a character. My reasoning for wanting a lot of characters is pretty shallow if I’m being honest. There are many characters I want primarily because I think they look cool. For example, I’ve never played Kid Icarus but I think Medusa would be a fun character in Smash. She’s got an awesome design and I love the darkness/shadow element. I don’t think that makes me wanting her any more wrong than someone who wants a character because they have some expertly written backstory.

While there is nothing wrong with people wanting characters for various reasons, if the only reason you want a character is because of something like skin color or orientation, I find that incredibly shallow and basic. For some people, having a character being black or Native American or gay or non-binary is all they need. For me, the character needs to have a gaming legacy, iconic in their own way, multiple layers of personality and development and lots of moveset potential so that they can be made fun to play.

Those people and I simply would not get along for more than a sitting or two, because they care about surface level things, and I care about the person past all of that, and people who tend to worry about surface-level stuff tend to not have much past that. Some people cannot related to anything that isn't just like them on the most basic of levels, which says more about them than anything else. However, as I said, there isn't anything inherently wrong with liking a character for those reasons.

The problem is when these people start acting like it's mandatory to follow their lines of thinking, which is why this New Age idea of representation isn't important. Having a lot of black characters or trans characters doesn't automatically make something better, and it isn't something that should be a focus. Every game doesn't need a black character, every movie doesn't need a gay couple, every story doesn't need a trans person. This is the same vein for any demographic.

This problem expands when people DEMAND every single bit of medium meets these demands, which means creators are not allowed to create their own works anymore, but have to follow certain rules or they get these internet mobs tearing them down.

Thus, that is the difference between 'I like this character because they are black and wish they would get into Smash' and 'Sakurai, you MUST add more black characters to Smash! Otherwise, we will point out how racist you are by clearly not adding them.'

People make this line a lot thinner than you would think.

I had this discussion with a friend of mine who is much more liberal than I am, and he also believes that people feeling represented is important and that liking characters for reasons I find shallow is fine. He then went on to explain to me that Kriss from Deltarune is apparently confirmed to be non-binary. He and I have completely different views on what non-binary means, but we both agree Kriss being playable would be pretty dope, and I've never played a single game from Toby Fox.

I don't give a crap about what Kriss thinks of themselves, but an indie character getting a playable role in Smash would be huge, and from Toby Fox nonetheless. It would be big for so many reasons outside of the non-binary thing, and that is what I would be focusing on, and yet so many people would be happy for no other reason other than Kriss is non-binary and in a game like Smash and...honestly that's mind-blowing.

Bottom line is that Smash doesn't have to, nor should it and highly likely never will, play by these dumb rules people are trying to enforce on media in the States...and like it or not, it's better off for it.

 

[Geno Boost]

What are your thoughts if gets separated and become it’s own fighters using the Pokémon items they use in their games and spin-offs

 

[ForsakenM]

What are your thoughts if gets separated and become it’s own fighters using the Pokémon items they use in their games and spin-offs

I don't know about being separated, but you know what would be cool?

You know how Inkling regains ink by holding Shield and B, or how Terry has a forward and back special? It would be super cool if Squirtle and Ivysaur got unique Down Specials and Charizard got Rock Smash back and some other command combination would switch them. I would of course apply something like that to Pyra/Mythra as well.

Trainers really aren't **** without their Pokemon, I mean they ARE called Pokemon Trainers after all. What I would be more excited for is if Leaf got her own team of Pokemon or if we got a new Trainer from a new region who used a new team.\

On this topic, what changes do you think each character should receive in the events of an Ultimate Deluxe?

 

[Geno Boost]

I don't know about being separated, but you know what would be cool?

You know how Inkling regains ink by holding Shield and B, or how Terry has a forward and back special? It would be super cool if Squirtle and Ivysaur got unique Down Specials and Charizard got Rock Smash back and some other command combination would switch them. I would of course apply something like that to Pyra/Mythra as well.

Trainers really aren't **** without their Pokemon, I mean they ARE called Pokemon Trainers after all. What I would be more excited for is if Leaf got her own team of Pokemon or if we got a new Trainer from a new region who used a new team.\

On this topic, what changes do you think each character should receive in the events of an Ultimate Deluxe?

De-echo the echoes as much as possible it’s better to turn them to clones
Upgrade to clones or echoes
Gets more characters but as alt skins
Deserve to get some alt skins
Bayonetta 3 and more cosplay Pikachu alt skins
Bring Grandpa Ganon back as alt skin with voice changes
Upgrade Movesets
Every Pokémon rep gets a shiny skin
Miitopia customizations for
Add death sound for

 

[Yamat08]

Could you imagine with dialogue, though? World of Light was such a tease in everything with that beginning cutscene conversation, but that would probably be pretty expensive as well for all of these voice actors, especially if you're like Falcon and haven't been updated in over 20 years because your voice actor is too busy being ****ing VEGETA-


I prefer how SSE did things, I still think it's one of the best fighting game story modes without ever explaining its plot just through excellent animation and how characters are portrayed. And they're all accurate and even manage to give some characters character arcs. Look at Lucas! They were so smart in showing Lucas's character growth throughout the story by making him go through the five stages of grief again.

Speaking of Captain Falcon, it's worth noting that a LOT of seemingly English-speaking characters (or grunting in the case of Zelda characters) are voiced by Japanese actors. If they were suddenly thrown into a fully-voiced story, would those actors be able to handle more complex sentences in English? Or maybe they'd just suddenly speak Japanese with a different dub-over voice being used for the English version? On that note, the fact that Zelda said anything at all was honestly one of the biggest surprises for me in the World of Light opening scene. Guess Nintendo's more open to giving her a speaking voice after Breath of the Wild (even if this is her Link Between Worlds incarnation).

Really though, I agree with you on SSE. It was able to do an amazing job of telling its story with almost no dialogue, and I'd have no qualms if another full-blown Adventure Mode storyline featured something similar (and in fact, it would be the most likely scenario given how cost-effective it'd be..... the problem is expecting them to ever do another Adventure Mode with a story even a fraction as rich as Subspace Emissary was).

What are your thoughts if gets separated and become it’s own fighters using the Pokémon items they use in their games and spin-offs

I don't see the Trainers becoming their own Fighters. In fact, I think their appearance in Smash already represents their roles from the home series very well: Trainers only take a passive role in combat by commanding their Pokemon. I would, however, advocate for giving Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard solo options. While the removal of the stamina mechanic does make it a lot easier to solo any one of them, the forced switching after losing a stock still puts a bit of a damper on that prospect, not to mention that the Pokemon being part of a composite character does complicate things a little bit for stuff like amiibo and character-limited tourneys (Charizard was unable to participate in a heavyweight-based tourney despite otherwise meeting the requirements, for instance).

Though, how'd they actually go about implementing solo options, I'm not sure. Like many others, I used to advocate for switching to work like Inkling's refill mechanic, but I've been convinced that such a thing would actually be a detriment when we consider how much of a boon mid-air switching is for Trainer (something that wouldn't be possible if shield+B was the way to trigger it). Also, as tempting as it sounds to have Charizard get Rock Smash back, I wonder if the Pokemon having a Down Special would be a fair trade-off for losing the ability to change into a whole other character. At any rate, I'd honestly be okay with the solo mons just working the way they do as Spirit Battle opponents: Down+B is simply disabled entirely and no Trainer in the background (which would supposedly mean no forced switching upon losing a stock).

De-echo the echoes as much as possible it’s better to turn them to clones
Upgrade to clones or echoes
Gets more characters but as alt skins
Deserve to get some alt skins
Bayonetta 3 and more cosplay Pikachu alt skins
Bring Grandpa Ganon back as alt skin with voice changes
Upgrade Movesets
Every Pokémon rep gets a shiny skin
Miitopia customizations for

While I wouldn't mind Alph getting upgraded to an Echo, I'm not sure why you'd say the same about Alex. Both Alex and Steve (as well as playable Zombie and Enderman, for that matter) act as literally nothing but skins in their home series, with no unique abilities between any of them.

Anyway, if there was one thing I'd change, it'd be to make more of a distinction between character/costume alts, and simple recolors. Basically, each model change can get its own set of colors (which could still be set at 8 for the sake of 8-player Smash). This would mean that WarioWare Wario and overalls Wario get to have ALL their alt colors from Brawl back, the gender-benders can effectively have 16 different alts, and characters like Samus or the Star Fox and Zelda casts could get to have all their past designs (we could also get Black Yoshi back and just give Craft Yoshi its own set). Though maybe there'd be some exceptions (I'd be fine with Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings sticking to their gimmick, since it'd be pretty troublesome to give a set of recolors to 8 different characters like that, and fully customizeable characters like Villager and Inkling could stick with having each alt be its own design). Also, there'd be some way to quickly switch between costume sets so you don't have to spend too much time scrolling through all of them individually on the character select screen. Speaking of which, if the system this hypothetical next Smash is on isn't significantly more powerful than the Switch, I'd propose having the character renders appear on the CSS in a lower quality (doesn't have to be too much, but just enough that the damn things would be able to load a lot faster).

Also, more Mii Fighter slots, for Christ's sake. One way they could go about this is to give the Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner each their own set of 99, rather than all of them sharing one pool of 99 (effectively giving them only 33 if split evenly). Though another alternative would be to give us pre-made sets for all the character-based costumes (as well as a few other things like the default Mii Fighters). The idea behind these is that they're unable to be altered, but they don't take up any of the slots for custom designs. So basically, you could get Sans without being arsed to make him yourself.

 

[Geno Boost]

While I wouldn't mind Alph getting upgraded to an Echo, I'm not sure why you'd say the same about Alex. Both Alex and Steve (as well as playable Zombie and Enderman, for that matter) act as literally nothing but skins in their home series, with no unique abilities between any of them.

Minecraft is the most sold game ever so making or as an echo shouldnt be crazy thing to think of doing if we trying to expand the Minecraft content a bit more there are many still interesting things that a minecraft fighter can do such as having a gravity block (gravel and sand) instead of regular block (dirt and wool), door instead of tnt, bow instead of minecart, enderpearl instead of elytra, we can even have trident and splash potions while the rest of the moveset can stay the same as due to the crafting table functions.
not only that but since if gets its own slot then both can have spaces for more alts skins such as Wither Skeleton, Drowned, Vindicator, Husk, Piglin, Piglin Brute, Skeleton, Stray, Zombie Villager and they are all easy to add so this is basically a big win.

 

[Trevenant]

Alex as an echo is unnecessary lol. They both represent the exact same vanilla version of Minecraft, so they can't have any differences that wouldn't warrant them being completely unique. There are no parallels in regards to items that would have a similar level of mixing and matching as Simon's and Richter's holy water for example which means only completely different functioning items are on the table which wouldn't work as an echo.

Like for example, a bow and arrow could be cool but it wouldn't work as an alternative take for Steve as it's clearly quite deliberate that Steve doesn't even have a true projectile. Would be too different to warrant an echo slot, and I don't exactly think Minecraft needs another unique character when they're literally just skins in their game anyway lol. That and Steve was clearly made to just represent everything from Minecraft. Yes he doesn't have everything, but they had to scrap some stuff to get all the other essentials down unfortunately

 

[DarthEnderX]

What are your thoughts if gets separated and become it’s own fighters using the Pokémon items they use in their games and spin-offs

I think Trainer's Pokemon SHOULD be split into separate Fighters. But the Trainers should remain in the background. And give different Pokemon different Trainers. i.e. Charizard gets Red, Ivysaur gets Leaf, Squirtle gets Blue, etc.

On this topic, what changes do you think each character should receive in the events of an Ultimate Deluxe?

-Give Ganondorf a completely unique moveset based on Hyrule Warriors Trident Ganondorf. Make Black Shadow Captain Falcon's echo and give him Ganondorf's old moveset.
-Replace Mario's FLUDD with Cappy.
-Make each of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon a separate Fighter, give every Pokemon except Mewtwo a trainer.
-Give Chrom a new unique moveset. Make Lucina his Echo. Make Roy Marth's Echo.
-Make Mythra into Pyra’s Echo.
-Give Young Link and Toon Link different subweapons so they aren't just using the same Bow/Bomb/Boomerang combo as Adult Link.
-Give Falco the Sniper Rifle and Wolf the Machine Gun from StarFox Assault.
-Expand the definition of Echo to include Dr. Mario and Pichu.

 

[DBPirate]

On this topic, what changes do you think each character should receive in the events of an Ultimate Deluxe?

• Give Ganondorf an entirely different moveset based on magic
• Give Young Link and Toon Link some different moves like the Korok Leaf, or at least give them new Final Smashes
• Make Alph an echo that uses Rock Pikmin
• Rehaul Samus' movement to make her feel more like she does in Dread and give her the Melee Counter
• Change FLUDD to...something else
• Rerecord the voice lines that have been reused since Brawl and change the generic animal voices of DK, Diddy, K. Rool, and Bowser
• Change Mario's and Luigi's personality to be closer to what they are in the Mario games
• Add "Mage" as the final Mii Fighter archetype
• Pipe dream: Give Sheik a harp-based moveset that utilizes the music in the Zelda series -- Song of Storms, Bolero of Fire, Song of Time, Song of Healing, etc.

-Expand the definition of Echo to include Dr. Mario and Pichu.

Seconded. For Dr. Mario at the least.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

On this topic, what changes do you think each character should receive in the events of an Ultimate Deluxe?

• needs a moveset revision. This is not just me talking about the fact his moveset just is not Ganon's, but it also is just bad in its current state. Due to buying so hard into the power for mobility tradeoff, Ganon has been bottom 5 since Brawl, and arguably the worst in the game again. I think that at this point, he should get a complete moveset overhaul and his moveset should be given to someone else, probably Black Shadow.
• actually make into an Olimar echo and give him Rock Pikmin over White and Purple pickmin.
• just try to give them some extra attacks from their games. Maybe give Toon Link the Leaf as his up b, maybe incorporate the masks from Majora's Mask into Young Link's moveset. I think having three links is fine, but I would like them to get spiced up a bit. Also kill off Triforce Slash. Give Young Link the Fierce Diety, and give Toon Link the Ballad of Gales.
• moveset wise he is fine but please buff his recovery so he is not trash tier

 

[DarthEnderX]

Add "Mage" as the final Mii Fighter archetype

Not technically a character change, but fully support.

 

[PeridotGX]

On this topic, what changes do you think each character should receive in the events of an Ultimate Deluxe?

I mean, an Ultimate DX would still be Ultimate, and given how afraid they've been of giving characters meaningful changes in patches I can't see characters being changed in a port. That's part of why I want Smash 6 to be a thing - then we can get some actual changes. Anyways...

- I think it would be neat if Palutena got a new set of specials every game. Keep Autoreticle, but give her three of the custom specials that were cut from Ultimate.
-Same deal here. There are so many intresting weapons from Splatoon, the options are limitless. At least swap out the bomb.
- Overhaul her, giving her a more modern moveset. Dark Samus stays exactly the same.
- Swap out his side and up b. My ideas are poison (from Robobot) and missile (from Amazing Mirror), but i would take anything even slightly better than what we have.
- Give his strongest attacks green fire, in refrence to the Awakening ritual. Also give all of the lords promoted alts.
- Swap out his Up Smash, it's a really satisfying move but also a really bizarre choice. Perhaps a trident attack?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I don't know about being separated, but you know what would be cool?

You know how Inkling regains ink by holding Shield and B, or how Terry has a forward and back special? It would be super cool if Squirtle and Ivysaur got unique Down Specials and Charizard got Rock Smash back and some other command combination would switch them. I would of course apply something like that to Pyra/Mythra as well.

Trainers really aren't **** without their Pokemon, I mean they ARE called Pokemon Trainers after all. What I would be more excited for is if Leaf got her own team of Pokemon or if we got a new Trainer from a new region who used a new team.\

On this topic, what changes do you think each character should receive in the events of an Ultimate Deluxe?

Young Link: new final smash, preferably something Majora’s Mask themed
Shulk: Give Fiora a voice in his Final Smash, maybe even have her appear in one of his victory screens. On occasion maybe swap some of the characters out for Reyn, Melia or Sharla. If possible give him a Future Connected alt costume
Richter: ANY different final smash than Simon. Maybe a more dynamic Hydro Storm, or idk just SOMETHING ELSE
Sora: not so much a change to the character himself as his content, but give more KH2 and KH3 music
Isabelle: give her her “voice”
Cloud and Sephiroth: Dub voices. Not that that’s gonna happen due to the union stuff but I can dream. And it better be Steve Burton and George Newbern respectively
Terry: Garou (hatless) alt
Joker: P5R and P3P music and a P3P FeMC-themed Mementos. Maybe we’ll get Violet anyway JANE IS REAL
Little Mac: make his recovery not suck so much. Same with Dr. Mario
Daisy: differentiate her just a little from Peach. Idc how you do it, maybe even just a different Final Smash
Lucina: new Final Smash - a crossbow barrage. She used a crossbow in Codename STEAM and Project X Zone 2 and if it can’t be an individual move make it a final smash idc
Wolf: new victory fanfare using the opening snippet of the Star Wolf theme
Dr. Mario: aside from better recovery, new victory theme - snippet of the Dr. Mario theme song
Hero: Sofia and Fem!Arusu as alts
Bayonetta: Bayo 3 alt costume
Samus: Dread alt costume
PAC-MAN: adds Lloyd and maybe Haruka to his roulette taunt
Sonic: make his model more expressive just like in Brawl
Captain Falcon: helmet breaking feature like what was planned in Brawl; same with Meta Knight. Only Olimar’s breaks and that needs to be fixed

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

I have ideas for Reworks:
- gets new Dash Attack, where he pounces on Enemy and in his Final Smash, Mr. Stevenson appears as guy, who jumps over enemies.
- He gets new Up Special, where he rides the Scaled version of Arwing upwards. Also small Nitpick for Fox that his Neutral Special gets a aiming Reticle that alludes to Main Star Fox Games. Also, he should bring back his Landmaster, while Falco gets his Final Smash from Ultimate.
- his Side Smash should be Hammer, while his new Side Special should be Flame dash. Also, his new Dash Attack should be rolling like in Kirby and Canvas Curse.
- His side B should be Gun, where he shoots a Deadly projectile that goes Straightforwards.
- His Side B should be Barrel Throw and combine his Bongo Final Smash with new one, where he punches an Opponent.
- Their new aerial Up B should be Condor, who acts like Duck Jump, but it's faster. Also, the Belay becomes Grounded Up Special.
- Now Andross appears in his Final Smash, where he appears as Giant disembodied head (N64 3DS) Version with Hands (If he wasn't playable) and commands Star Wolf to attack the Opponents in Final Smash.
- In his Final Smash, while Fox gets Landmaster back, Falco has small change, where instead of Fox, Krystal takes Fox's place in Falco's Final Smash. He also gets the same treatment as Fox, where he has the same Up Special and changed Neutral Special.
- Now Tharja appears over Chrom in their Final Smash.

 

[MeteoRain]

The issue I have with this is that it ONLY shows what the results are at the very end, when things have changed around during the 3 years of speculation and circumstances have changed throughout those years.

I mean, there was a time during base game speculation and very early DLC speculation where the Isaac thread was seriously crushing both the Geno thread and Shantae thread, but then Isaac got AT'd which substantially squandered his discussion, and then the Geno thread...well you know, and Shantae would eventually get a new game announced with Seven Sirens which would boost their discussion/speculation.

So Isaac being below those 2 characters doesn't necessarily mean he is less popular, but just that things lined up more poorly for him compared to Geno and Shantae.

You bring up a point about Isaac being squandered by Ultimate's AT...but when you sit back and think about it, his AT from Brawl being nowhere to be found in Smash 4 is likely what let him ascend to the top in the first place.

I'm not knocking against the character at all, speculation is such a crapshoot at acceptance by the general community. Being one of the top 3 is nothing to sneeze at, especially when you realize he's the #1 first party according to that list.

 

[Laniv]

: Mostly just aesthetics, but make like Little Mac in Smash 4 and give him 8 color swaps, and then the Koopalings plus, oh, let's say Boom Boom


: Give him two Final Smashes, Blast-o-Matic when he's winning, and the Kredits if he's in second place or lower

: Down air (or maybe aerial down special?) is now the pogo tail thing like it should've been

: Graduates to echo, like he almost was >:T

 

[SPEN18]

his AT from Brawl being nowhere to be found in Smash 4 is likely what let him ascend to the top in the first place.

I think this is pretty false.

Isaac was a big request before speculation for 4 even began; the AT being missing from 4 did cause an outcry, but it only caused an outcry because he had a ton of existing fans. It may have helped him on the ballot, yes, since at that time people were being silly and ruling out AT'd characters as possibilities, but in terms of his general popularity he always was and would have been a big roster request. It would have been more of an uphill climb without the strong ballot performance, but I think most GS fans come out for him when there's even an inkling of hope for him. If the AT had come back for 4 and he had gotten a strong but not quite as huge ballot support, then I don't see why he wouldn't have drawn the same amount of attention as someone like Geno who likely did well but not that well on the Ballot (relative to characters like K. Rool, Banjo, and probably Isaac himself). Perhaps the better example is Waluigi, who was likely hurt on the ballot due to AT status and then hurt again by the aftermath of E3 but still garners a ton of support. A character getting AT'd could've hurt them on the ballot and hence also in their representation in Ultimate, but not necessarily in terms of general popularity or intensity of speculation.

TLDR stop coming up with fake reasons for why a character is or became popular.

 

[Wonder Smash]

So if Nahobino was in Smash, what would be the series symbol, stage, and victory theme?

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

So if Nahobino was in Smash, what would be the series symbol, stage, and victory theme?

I have an Idea:
Series Symbol: Jack Frost's head.
Stage: Ruined Tokyo from SMTV
Victory theme: Main theme of Shin Megami Tensei but remixed and shortened.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I have an Idea:
Series Symbol: Jack Frost's head.
Stage: Ruined Tokyo from SMTV
Victory theme: Main theme of Shin Megami Tensei but remixed and shortened.

Interesting. Any specific artwork that the symbol can be based on?

Also, which SMT main theme?

 

[Yamat08]

I mean, an Ultimate DX would still be Ultimate, and given how afraid they've been of giving characters meaningful changes in patches I can't see characters being changed in a port.

Really, Smash in general runs a gammet of "familiarity", be it for how characters function within Smash itself (especially with their specials), as well as its roster being composed of iconic characters in the first place (and hell, I doubt Everyone Is Here could've been near as successful if any of the returning veterans were retooled to the point that they don't even feel like playing as that character anymore). This isn't to say that some changes don't happen, but they're really just bits and pieces over time. The N64 characters got a Side-B, Mario got FLUDD, Luigi has the Poltergust for a grab, Ganondorf got his sword, most of the Melee clones got de-cloned to some extent, transforming characters got split, etc. About the only exceptions are Link in Ultimate and MAYBE Pit in Smash4. Even then, aside from the fact that Young Link seems to serve as a way of preserving the old Link (being a clone of how Link was all the way back in Melee ironically helped to make Young stand out from the other two Links), Link and Pit still have a lot of similarities to when they first debuted. Link still shoots arrows, throws a boomerang, uses a bomb, has a swirling slash Up-B, etc. And Pit got a few new goodies from Uprising, but his overall function is still the same (he shoots arrows, Down-B reflector, Side-B rush, etc.).

All in all, I'd keep my expectations low on any character receiving a drastic overhaul, even with a controversial one like Ganondorf. Maybe he'll be tinkered with just a little bit more over time (and if we had someone like Black Shadow around to preserve his "buffed up Captain Falcon" playstyle, I'd be all for him having something on the level of Link's Breath of the Wild upgrade), but I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Warlock Punch is staying. Also, Cappy is fine as is. FLUDD was already a controversial addition for what should've been the all-rounder character (not to mention poorly aged, given how FLUDD has zero relevance outside of Sunshine and Cappy will most likely be the same). There's no need to mess with Mario further, especially not if it's to give him a transformation moveset.

 

[DBPirate]

The reluctance to overhaul any character is probably my biggest issue with Smash. It's not enough to ruin any character or the game for me, but there are several characters that just don't feel like themselves to me and they'll likely stay that way because people main them. Or at least that was the logic given for not changing Ganondorf.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Can someone explain why this was a one time thing?

https://twitter.com/DecaIogics/status/1459247841596121095?t=W2BO7wpq8SyNQF-sfuZGFg&s=19

 

[dream1ng]

Can someone explain why this was a one time thing?

https://twitter.com/DecaIogics/status/1459247841596121095?t=W2BO7wpq8SyNQF-sfuZGFg&s=19

Was a reference to him being a final boss, or in some titles, an optional/hidden boss, like in KH. Wouldn't fit with any of the other DLC characters.

 

[7NATOR]

On this topic, what changes do you think each character should receive in the events of an Ultimate Deluxe?

I'm gonna follow Ultimate's Balancing Philosophy and say characters should receive changes that better Compliments their Gameplan and such

While there are ideas to do stuff like Give Donkey Kong Barrels, or Make Samus faster, I think those stuff might mess with the balance of those characters (Fighting a Faster Samus seems like Hell), and detract from the Gameplan already established

I think while The Team obviously tries to make the characters Canonical to how they fight, Their other goal is to make Characters Distinct and Balanced from each other, So I think certain Abilities or Moves are purposely not added in because of that. Sometimes Continuity has to be sacrificed to make Certain characters feel right home in Smash. Here's some changes I would make

- For , I would the following

--Retool Up Tilt to how it works in SSF2. You can release it early to activate a Faster Attack, but you can hold the Charge to pull in Opponents and make the Attack stronger

--For Warlock Punch, keep the Same Charge time, but allow it to be charged even further to Delay the Attack and Make it more Powerful, as well as Increase the Hitbox the longer you charge it. Full Power would have it be a Massive Explosion of Dark Energy. It will Still have the Infinite Armor, and perhaps change the Animation to have his Cape be in front of him, and have it reflect Projectiles

--Allow Down B to go through Projectiles, and Increase the Kill Power of it

-Give the 2nd hit of Neutral air a Bigger Hitbox so it can hit Grounded opponents, or make it to where the First hit drags characters into the 2nd hit more easily

Ganondorf should keep all the Power he has, but I think he needs to be even Scarier. Make it so Ganondorf gives the Opponents reason to Approach, and make it to where Ganondorf has Options to keep unapproaching opponents scared of him no matter what

-For I would do the following

--Make Final Cutter have almost instant Startup, in Exchange for more endlag when Landing. You still need the Move to be Punishable and not easily Spammed, but this would make it more useful in Close quarters, even if it's risky and such

--For Hammer, Decrease the amount of time it takes for the Move to be unleashed as an Attack. Make it a quick option, yet one that leaves you open

--Decrease the Startup of Suck, perhaps almost instant.

--Slightly Decrease the Startup of Stone

For Kirby, I think his Specials should be quicker to the Point as I think it's better for Newbies to have Faster Specials rather than Slower ones, and it would compliment his Kit better. but have them still have the endlag as to teach that Specials can leave you Punishable

-For , I would do the Following

--Make Both Spin Dash and Spin Charge Down special. Spin Charge is activated but Holding the Button, Spin Dash is Activated by Tapping the Button Repeatedly

--Decrease the Priority of both of the moves. I think the move should be beaten by many more moves and not just have it clank. Perhaps make it to where Fully Charged it has better priority

--While Spin-Dashing, Allow Sonic to Cancel the Move but also keep the Momentum from the Spin Dash by pressing Shield

--Make Side Special Light Speed Dash. It's a Dash Forward that doesn't do any Damage and Sonic can be hit out of it, but the Dash is Invulnerable to Projectiles, and can Cross Opponents up. Sonic can also act Quickly out of it


Sonic is all About Mobility, so I think these Changes allow him to have more ways to move. Decreasing the Priority of Spindash was to make Sonic less Annoying to Fight and not have Spin Dash be so Over-centralizing

-For , I would do the Following


--Remove the Super Armor on his Smash Attacks

--Give his Neutral Special Infinite Armor

-Allow Mac to Jump and Dodge cancel Jolt Haymaker at any time, whether before, during, or After the Attack

-Bring Back the Dreamland Express for his Jab. Timing the Jab Gentleman combo will allow you to have much less Endlag than usual, allowing for More Pressure and Combos

-Return Downtilt to it's Former Glory. Make the angle it sends at Closer to Make, and either give it more Hitstun on Hit or Less Endlag in general (though that make the Move a better poking and Pressure tool in general also)


Removing the Super Armor Smash Attacks should make it more Manageable to Challenge Mac, as I think that's the Main reason he can be so Annoying to Fight (I'm gonna miss Abusing it though). Neutral Special can be the Armor move because I think it's more Telegraphed and easier to manage. Mac should have more Punishing Combo game to Compliment his Ground game, and Jolt haymaker being Cancelable would make it easier to Challenge the Air, but still have it be very risky for Mac in General


-For I would do the Following

-Make any move that use his Dragon Abilities do both Massive Increased Damage, and Massive Increased Knockback. Make that Counter kill early instead of being weak sauce

Corrin I think might be the character that is the most overshadowed by other characters, as I think his Gameplan has been taken up by many characters, and he doesn't have enough to give. Even characters like Mac and Ganon, as bad as they are Competitive, have reasons to play them

His Dragon Moves should be the Star of the show, with his Sword moves being Complimentary


-For

--Doing The Inputs with the Special Button will Activate EX Specials, which have Different Properties from the Regular Specials

--Also allow them to activate Super Moves with Inputs. Ryu can have Denjin Hadoken, and Ken can have Shoryupa

--Have a Meter to perhaps allow the use of these moves

This is just to bring the Shotos more in line with Terry and Kazuya in terms of them having their Super Mechanics.


-For I would do the following

--Allow Up Special to be activated in 8 way Direction

--Less Startup on Stinger

I think Up Special should allow more directions as to give Ridley more Control over the Air. Less Startup on Stinger would make it a more Useful move, but I still think the Tipper hitbox should be hard to hit


-For I Would do the Following

-Make it to where One Wing will never disappear until All Opponents have Equal or less Stocks to Sephiroth

This is just a pet peeve. I think especially in Free for alls, Sephiroth doesn't have Wing Enough because just Killing one opponent can remove Wing, when there can be up to 6 other opponents in the match to deal with

 

[MasterCheef]

the changes some fighters should receive in the event of an Ultimate Deluxe!

: - make his down special ( _Fire Breath _ ). Make his up special ( _ super Bowser jump _ ) like King DeDeDe. Make his neutral special whirling fortress.
: - gets new Dash Attack, where he pounces on opponent.
: - gets a teleport recovery
: - gets new Up Special, where he rides the Scaled version of Arwing upwards.
: - move his ( _ Wizard's Foot _ ) to side special. Move his ( _ Flame Choke _ ) to neutral special. His down special becomes a float. trade his F-AIR with his n-air. his new F-AIR is a bigger & better version of Sephiroth's F-AIR. His up special becomes a teleport just like in WW. --Retool Up Tilt to how it works in SSF2. You can release it early to activate a Faster Attack, but you can hold the Charge to pull in Opponents and make the Attack stronger
: -There are so many interesting weapons from Splatoon. At least swap out the roller.
: - Swap out his side and up b. My ideas are poison (from Robobot) and missile (from Amazing Mirror), but i would take anything even notably better than what we have.
: - buff the projectile speed of her neutral special. buff startup of her D-AIR, F-TILT and Explosive Flame. make her up air be shorter & same damage
: - Overhaul her & daisy, giving her a more modern move-set.
: - & Dark Pit. fix his F-AIR to have the swords rotate above his hand. Make his recovery a low knock-back Angelic missile with horizontal and diagonal options. nerf the end lag on upper cut arm in the air.
give him a spiking Down Air with his tail. and his side special auto grabs the ledge
give him 2X as much fuel for recovery and make it recover to total significantly faster. also let him charge up his Robo beam
: - Overhaul her specials, giving her a more modern move-set. noticeably a much better recovery move.
: - Overhaul her specials, giving her a move-set from Hyrule Warriors.
: - give her move-set to Toon Zelda with a buffed and consistently useful F-AIR. Make her be from Twilight Princess and give her a move-set from Hyrule Warriors.

 

[SKX31]

Yeah, it would be a shame if they just left it like Smash4, with Cloud and Bayonetta completely breaking the game. Though from the impression I'm getting, Ultimate in its current state isn't even remotely that bad, but maybe somebody who's way more savvy in the competitive scene than I am could give their input on that. At any rate, more fine-tuning couldn't hurt (especially after the final character just dropped).

Ultimate's in a really fine state competitively - it's telling when multiple people see "Low tier" as "Still viable" (with the caveat that some character matchups can get incredibly difficult and thus secondaries are recommended) and when much-maligned characters like and can still go rather far in tournaments occasionally (Tarakotori with Little Mac, Rickles with Ganondorf). Of course, you still have around 15 characters who are considered "up there", but the distance between them and the next like 20-30 is not that big really. And so on with the other gaps.

There are some issues still - such as there being a lot of characters who rely a lot on one or a couple moves at the higher levels. But one cannot really expect perfection here,

As for moveset reworks, I know Sakurai and co like to be conservative but hey, I'm going for the whole hog here with three examples:

... yeah. His sheer power punishes mistakes very easily and the over-the-top nature of his kit has lent himself to becoming a fan favorite... still though. While he very likely thrives in FFAs with items (an assertion I wholeheatedly believe since any distraction gives him room to approach / recover) he's the biggest case of a Skill Gate - once one starts to consistently challenge the recovery in particular - and hasn't had much beyond that raw damage / kill threat since Brawl. Melee is an exception, but that's mainly due to the engine allowing players to mitigate his approach issues somewhat and him being able to combo / edgeguard pretty damn well there. Regardless, the whole shebang does not evoke the King of Evil fully and leaves him very vurnerable to a lot of shenaningas.

Granted him being vurnerable to shenaningas is accidentally true to Zelda to a sense, but you get my point.

Think that leaning further into the swordplay for the normals might be a good way to go considering not only are the sword Smashes very popular - DORIYAH's become a meme for a reason - but he's a proficient swordwielder as the times he's been a final boss have shown. Besides, several of his existing moves (F-Tilt for instance) could relatively easily be converted to sword-using attacks. It'd also allow Sakurai and co. to retain the "King of Disrespect" to some degree and leave room for Ganon should Sakurai and co. look to include that guy as a seperate slot. As for the specials... he doesn't need two over-the-top moves in Warlock Punch and Volcano Kick. DMV could easily take Warlock Punch's place.

has pretty good to great normals, that's not his main issue at play. He's supposed to be a very simple to pick up and use character after all. Instead, his Side B and Up B are... not up to par. I'm saying this partly since his post-64 history has been rocky (got hit by the nerf nuke in Melee, kinda decent in Brawl, and had poor results during 4) and partly since those two moves in particular haven't aged particularily well. Hammer is kinda self-explanatory - sure it is a big smack, but that's what he does elsewhere with his attacks and it's outclassed by 's Jet Hammer in several regards (which itself isn't an amazing move, but Jet Hammer has several favorable traits Hammer wishes it had - such as armor uncharged, greater damage output and the ability to hit below the ledge). I'm leaning towards replacing it with something more imaginative - lets say the Beam Whip so he can actively space some.

Final Cutter is a seemingly safe attack (and commonly spammed on Wi-Fi)... but jeez the cards are so heavily stacked against it once one delves deeper. It not being an amazing recovery move I can understand... but it is slow by Smash Up B standards, does little damage / knockback and is very underwhelming vs. shields. A solid chunk of the cast have Up Bs that one can use out of shield to punish over-eager attacks and Kirby does not have that when he arguably needs it the most. It's especially jarring since Final Cutter appears to be much, much snappier in the origin games - trading off some of its descending portion for better start up would help it a lot (what's extra weird is that they already did this with 4's Custom Move Uppercutter). Or just give him Fighter Kirby's Shoryuken Rising Break.

I'm intentionally leaving Stone alone since, well, it's Stone. Not an amazing move, but one of the most popular casual attacks. Inhale I'd like to see buffed a bit - specifically its endlag, since it shouldn't be having worse endlag than 's Flame Choke and 's Alolan Whip. And yes, I'll admit that I watched MockRock's recent video on Kirby, and he made some great points which I'm shamelessly using. The solutions are mine though. He's at least in a much better spot than in Melee, which was "yikes" territory even casually (it's telling when those suicide grabs could be mashed out of pretty easily and just let Kirby plummet to his doom).

is a bit of a weird case. Dread's runaway success has sparked a lot of calls for a rework / redesign, and although I kinda half-agree there since Metroid has evolved in a different direction since the 64 days and when newer gunners actively use more projectiles in their normals (also because her playstyle is unorthodox and thrives best when she can actually follow up off of her projectiles / grab), there are quite a few moves that could survive such a rework. She's had a kinda rocky history throughout the series as well - Melee and Ultimate are the times when she's seen prominent usage in Serious Business levels.

Still though, think she could benefit from having a playstyle that's more easily defined than "shoot projectiles and react to opponents' approaches, but also be prepared to follow up from the projectiles / grabs". Reducing the power of Charged Shot somewhat could pave the way for changes to her stats primarily: her being a relatively slow, floaty heavyweight does not really match the feel of recent Metroid titles where she certainly looks snappier, and she could use a bit of a speed boost in the air. Her normals could be changed as well - whether the Melee Counter as the presumptive U-Tilt, expanded Morph Ball utility or several of her aerials using arm cannon shots ( benefits from having F-Air be useful when it comes to maneuvering in the air, for example).

So yeah, those are the three that come to mind. Other cases like could use more flair, but I've honestly mellowed out a bit on him - he can be played aggressively, and I like that.

 

[Will]

Move his ( _ Flame Choke _ ) to neutral special.

To get Magedorf I have to sacrifice warlock punch?????????????????

I wanna keep it at least, maybe turn it into that scene from OOT where he pushes Navi back

 

[Trevenant]

I doubt any characters gonna get significantly retooled if Sakurai is at the helm. While other people describe it as power creep, what can be way more appropriately described as larger ambition clearly exists for smash characters nowadays, and the DLC extended that to frankly ridiculous levels. Despite this making older characters seeming way more outdated, Sakurai just really don't wanna alienate players which is why the changes made are usually either direct swap outs or outright improvements.

This includes the idea of a reboot. I heavily doubt a reboot'll exist if Sakurai is directing again. Sakurai has gone on record before saying that he doesn't really like messing with what's been established in his games which is why in smash for example, the newcomers usually break more ground than the gameplay, as I guess it just runs the risk of messing with what's already been done.

 

[MasterCheef]

I wanna keep it at least, maybe turn it into that scene from OOT where he pushes Navi back

i personally would make it his down taunt. and i would make it waay more powerful

 

[Will]

i personally would make it his down taunt. and i would make it waay more powerful

ah, yes, of course, a janky windbox to cheese the opponent. i like where you're thinking.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The FF content I need most in Smash 6 is The Valkyrie theme...

To get Magedorf I have to sacrifice warlock punch?????????????????

No. It just becomes the Black Bull Punch.

 

[ForsakenM]

De-echo the echoes as much as possible it’s better to turn them to clones
Upgrade to clones or echoes
Gets more characters but as alt skins
Deserve to get some alt skins
Bayonetta 3 and more cosplay Pikachu alt skins
Bring Grandpa Ganon back as alt skin with voice changes
Upgrade Movesets
Every Pokémon rep gets a shiny skin
Miitopia customizations for

I think these are pretty good mentions, though some of them may be harder to implement than others. Not sure how you would change Alex though.

Cultured to mention Miitopia. We REALLY need Mii Mage/Mii Wizard

I think Trainer's Pokemon SHOULD be split into separate Fighters. But the Trainers should remain in the background. And give different Pokemon different Trainers. i.e. Charizard gets Red, Ivysaur gets Leaf, Squirtle gets Blue, etc.


-Give Ganondorf a completely unique moveset based on Hyrule Warriors Trident Ganondorf. Make Black Shadow Captain Falcon's echo and give him Ganondorf's old moveset.
-Replace Mario's FLUDD with Cappy.
-Make each of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon a separate Fighter, give every Pokemon except Mewtwo a trainer.
-Give Chrom a new unique moveset. Make Lucina his Echo. Make Roy Marth's Echo.
-Make Mythra into Pyra’s Echo.
-Give Young Link and Toon Link different subweapons so they aren't just using the same Bow/Bomb/Boomerang combo as Adult Link.
-Give Falco the Sniper Rifle and Wolf the Machine Gun from StarFox Assault.
-Expand the definition of Echo to include Dr. Mario and Pichu.

I agree with Melee/Smash 4 Ganondorf becoming Black Shadow and Ganondorf being more unique. However, I disagree completely with just scraping everything and building around the Trident. He's got plenty from the main-line games to build from, and he doesn't need to be reworked completely.

I'm not sure how Cappy would even work as a move, since taking control over a fighter seems too OP. Making it like a dash where he zooms to his opponent is not only disingenuous to Odyssey but I'm not sure that fits Mario's archetype.

My idea is to keep them with Pokemon Trainer but give them all new Down-B's and make the Switch Command something like Inkling's Ink Refill. Part of the uniqueness with Pokemon Trainer is that it has more than one Pokemon which raises the skill floor and ceiling for completely mastering the character. Also, no other Pokemon needs a trainer, as Pokemon are known to act on their own in the series for a while now.

I'm not sure Chrom really needs to be unique, mostly because while I'm sure it could be done, he's just another sword-swinging Lord from FE. I'm okay with it happening though, just that I feel he would still be a very generic swordsman. Making Lucina and echo for Chrom doesn't make sense to what little lore I know since she's pretending to be Marth and tries to fight like him. Roy has changed too much to be an Echo for Marth, and I'd rather not have his unique parts taken away to make him so.

This just seems like a bad call in general: I wouldn't want Sheik be changed to Echo Zelda even if they were still bound to the same character (which btw, Ultimate Sheik is the original Sheik, not Zelda in disguise), so why would I ask that to happen here? Also, unlike Sheik being the OG Sheik and no longer Zelda, Mythra and Pyra are the same person and thus have to change to have one or the other, and thus it makes no sense to split them up. I would much rather give them both a new Down-B and give them a new Switch command much like Pokemon Trainer.

This is incredibly based: Zelda hasn't gotten the best treatment as a series in Smash. Young Link needs more changes that reflect Majora's Mask and Rivals of Aether has a perfect example of how Toon Link could play using the Korok Leaf and the Skull Hammer. This just needs to happen.

Krystal seems to be more attached to the Sniper and I'd rather her get in using it instead, though that change for Wolf seems great.

I'm fine with this so long as they don't get any massive changes.

 

[Geno Boost]

I think these are pretty good mentions, though some of them may be harder to implement than others. Not sure how you would change Alex though.

Cultured to mention Miitopia. We REALLY need Mii Mage/Mii Wizard

I did edit that post and change my mind and put instead due to the fact he would have different arm animation also a villain and could have the mobs skins such as Drowned, Zombie Villager, Husk, Zombie Piglin
As for moveset changes basically he can have a gravity block (gravel and sand) instead of regular block (dirt and wool), (iron and wooden) door instead of tnt, trident instead of minecart, enderpearl instead of elytra, he can even have bow and splash potions while the rest of the moveset can stay the same as due to the crafting table functions.

Oh I also edited the post so that the Minecraft characters do get the voice when they get hurt or death sound

 

[Chuderz]

I hate Megaman's forward tilt so much. I get having it be his Neutral Air and Jab of course but copy and pasting it to the forward tilt has always annoyed me greatly. I'd take a generic super punch over it.

Do any Megaman fans have any suggestions that are sourced from his games? I'd love to have a look.