Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Again tho, you people are caring too much about the fictional characters. Energy like this should go to handing real black or LGBT people in real life massive stacks of cash for working on big AAA games.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

I’m totally fine with more diverse representation in Smash. The only thing is you’ll probably have to also be fine with getting more secondary characters rather than just the main protagonist

Shantae: "Am I a joke to you?"

Of course they yell about politics all the time. After all, there's only two genders: Male and political. Just as there are only two sexualities, straight and political. Or the two ethnicities, white and political.

Goddamn, that is on-point.

i am gonna drop a couple of reason why Mr. Sandman should be in smash without the propaganda criteria:

King Hippo is a better choice and still counts as Pacific Islander representation.

 

[ForsakenM]

So I really dislike the idea of saying 'X has literally no chance because of Y' since, ya know, this happened?

But like, people talking a lot of Mortal Kombat recently, and I'm not sure if everyone forgot, but Japan really doesn't like the violence of MK and it's not even localised...so Japanese gamers have to buy it and have it shipped from overseas to play it...and I'm pretty sure it's not that popular in Japan anyway.

Not to mention China has banned if for sure, as well as possibly other countries either banning or doing what Japan has done.

The more I dig into it, the more difficult it seems for MK to get in, maybe even worse than Sora had upon reflection. The best chance is to use Injustice versions of the characters in terms of design and lack of gore, but then you have issues of series integrity and the fact that only characters that have popularity in Japan have gotten in so far so if there is too small a market it crushes MK's chances.

Once again, not impossible, but I think Chief is more likely and Halo and Xbox do horrible in Japan.

 

[Arcanir]

Atreus's love interest in Ragnarok is a Norse character who supposedly wasn't originally black and yet that was changed because...reasons? I don't even care much myself about that last one, interpretations change all the time, especially about gods and mythology, but it begs the question of what else may be changed for a quota that no one asked for.

Angrboda has no confirmed appearance in myth, the only things we really know about her is that she's a Jotun, Loki's wife, and the mother of Fenrir (a wolf), Jormungandr (a snake), and Hel (a half dead woman). Nothing about those sparse details say anything about what she would've looked like, so there's nothing saying she was changed to be any race (outside of a giant) as what she looked like is up to interpretation.

 

[Shroob]

Angrboda has no confirmed appearance in myth, the only things we really know about her is that she's a Jotun, Loki's wife, and the mother of Fenrir (a wolf), Jormungandr (a snake), and Hel (a half dead woman). Nothing about those sparse details say anything about what she would've looked like, so there's nothing saying she was changed to be any race (outside of a giant) as what she looked like is up to interpretation.

And even then, what we know of Norse myth is super, super sparse, since they didn't write a whole lot of... anything really, since they didn't have a writing system.


That and good 'ol Christian influence on the myths.

 

[osby]

Angrboda has no confirmed appearance in myth, the only things we really know about her is that she's a Jotun, Loki's wife, and the mother of Fenrir (a wolf), Jormungandr (a snake), and Hel (a half dead woman). Nothing about those sparse details say anything about what she would've looked like, so there's nothing saying she was changed to be any race (outside of a giant) as what she looked like is up to interpretation.

That's not even going into the fact that jotuns are supposed to be embodiments of nature's chaotic change for all we know. They don't even have fixed sizes or genders, it doesn't make much sense to claim that they should be limited in their appearance.

 

[Wonder Smash]

So I really dislike the idea of saying 'X has literally no chance because of Y' since, ya know, this happened?

But like, people talking a lot of Mortal Kombat recently, and I'm not sure if everyone forgot, but Japan really doesn't like the violence of MK and it's not even localised...so Japanese gamers have to buy it and have it shipped from overseas to play it...and I'm pretty sure it's not that popular in Japan anyway.

Not to mention China has banned if for sure, as well as possibly other countries either banning or doing what Japan has done.

The more I dig into it, the more difficult it seems for MK to get in, maybe even worse than Sora had upon reflection. The best chance is to use Injustice versions of the characters in terms of design and lack of gore, but then you have issues of series integrity and the fact that only characters that have popularity in Japan have gotten in so far so if there is too small a market it crushes MK's chances.

Once again, not impossible, but I think Chief is more likely and Halo and Xbox do horrible in Japan.

Scorpion was a DLC character in Injustice, so if Japanese fans downloaded him for that game, then they'll most likely download him for Smash too (unless he's in the base roster).

 

[Yamat08]

Didn't white skin pretty much evolve for the sole sake of surviving in the cold, northern regions? Unless Norse mythology makes specific mention of people from the lands far south of Scandinavia, it should be pretty reasonable to think that most if not all figures depicted in the lore would be light-skinned. But I'm not too savvy on early European history or how much contact the Scandinavians had with other cultures (at least prior to the vikings), so don't take my word for it.

 

[Shroob]

Did Injustice even make any sort of impact in Japan?


I can't find any sales data for the Japanese region for either game, and I'd have to imagine that DC is a much smaller property over there compared to Marvel.

 

[ForsakenM]

Didn't white skin pretty much evolve for the sole sake of surviving in the cold, northern regions? Unless Norse mythology makes specific mention of people from the lands far south of Scandinavia, it should be pretty reasonable to think that most if not all figures depicted in the lore would be light-skinned. But I'm not too savvy on early European history or how much contact the Scandinavians had with other cultures (at least prior to the vikings), so don't take my word for it.

This is something I was about to say.

The Norse/Vikings/w/e they are properly called were white af. When people think of gods and goddesses, they usually paint them in a familiar image. Thus, I would assume that they thought all their gods had the same skin color as them. Why would a god or goddess that YOU worship and make offering to that supports you not look like you to some degree? Why would they look completely unfamiliar?

Anyway, I already added supposedly and that I didn't see it as a big deal since, yet again as I said, interpretations of gods and goddesses change over the years. However, gonna say that if Jotun were real, that means giant people who typically live in freezing conditions. One of them was so big that him being slain made the earth and his blood became the oceans (Ymir). Just gonna say I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be black unless some sort of magic was involved, and general depictions are either white or, more commonly, blue skin...you know, essentially being ice giants and all?

Nothing about that screams black, a pigment evolved for dealing with intense rays and heat and skin cancer. Hence implying a diversity check box.

 

[Geno Boost]

But... Sandman isn't a villain.

Kinda true compared to someone like Aran Ryan who basically cheats, Mr. Sandman basically has anger issue I think but he is still a big super boss in a video game however being friendly hasn’t been shown either.
Maybe rival is a better definition but since smash counts Meta knight as a villain to Kirby according to the trailer then same could be counted for Mr. Sandman

 

[Shroob]

This is something I was about to say.

The Norse/Vikings/w/e they are properly called were white af. When people think of gods and goddesses, they usually paint them in a familiar image. Thus, I would assume that they thought all their gods had the same skin color as them. Why would a god or goddess that YOU worship and make offering to that supports you not look like you to some degree? Why would they look completely unfamiliar?

Anyway, I already added supposedly and that I didn't see it as a big deal since, yet again as I said, interpretations of gods and goddesses change over the years. However, gonna say that if Jotun were real, that means giant people who typically live in freezing conditions. One of them was so big that him being slain made the earth and his blood became the oceans (Ymir). Just gonna say I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be black unless some sort of magic was involved, and general depictions are either white or, more commonly, blue skin...you know, essentially being ice giants and all?

Nothing about that screams black, a pigment evolved for dealing with intense rays and heat. Hence implying a diversity check box.

The only thing I'll say in this, because I don't wanna get wrapped up in this insanity too deeply


Is that there was no standard size for the Jotunn. Yeah, popular culture has treated them like absolute Goliaths, but there's many accounts of them being various sizes, many of which being the same size of a human.


It's a lot like how despite us recognizing a dwarf as a dwarf, and an elf as an elf, the Norse considered Elves and Dwarves the exact same thing, and it was a person to person kind of deal as to their interpretation.

 

[ForsakenM]

The only thing I'll say in this, because I don't wanna get wrapped up in this insanity too deeply


Is that there was no standard size for the Jotunn. Yeah, popular culture has treated them like absolute Goliaths, but there's many accounts of them being various sizes, many of which being the same size of a human.


It's a lot like how despite us recognizing a dwarf as a dwarf, and an elf as an elf, the Norse considered Elves and Dwarves the exact same thing, and it was a person to person kind of deal as to their interpretation.

Just like how in Artemis Fowl the race of elves is what most would actually call faeries, what with being smaller and having wings. Elves generally speaking are most humanoid and human-sized, slender and elegant. I have made edits to common races in campaigns I've made with great effect.

You are explaining things that the average person understands, after I already stated it's not that big a deal. I get it, creative freedom and expression. I support it. The problem is that sometimes creators do things because they have pressure from those with an agenda or they themselves have an agenda and working that in is more important than source material or integrity of the story or world they are creating.

If someone was crafting a story in a Southern state that is well-known for being very much predominantly white and they are making the story accurate to modern day and not a fantasy story and suddenly that state is primarily black for no reason that is justified...that's probably an agenda, and it's also inaccurate and can ruin worldbuilding and immersion. If a character is known in their source material to be a white man and they take the story to the silver screen and suddenly that role is played by a black woman and it's NOT an adaptation or spin-off of some sort? There is no reason for that other than an agenda, and people tend to not like that.

You know that whole thing about not wanting James Bond to be black? It's not for any negative reason: it's that James Bond has been primarily white, and that is because Europe only has 2% of the population that is black. The odds that a European spy would be white are massive, and even with millions of black people in Europe he would be much more noticeable for being black...which depending on your job as a spy, could be okay in certain jobs but could be more of a hindrance potentially. What about the talks of remaking Lord of the Flies, where young boys tear each other apart because they are young and have no adult supervision while stranded on an island, and making it completely with girls? Biologically and psychologically speaking, the results would be completely different, which defeats the purpose of Lord of the Flies: the story is basically a setup to show how society can collapse without proper structure, yet they knowingly are making it an all-female cast and seemingly are making more about struggle for survival with success in the end. Just call it something else and make your story instead of ruining prior great works.

I could keep going, and there are many more examples, and there is the extra funny bit when the reverse happens and people freak out but it's fine when a trait that is considered a majority is swapped to that of a minority and you shouldn't complain about it...but the point has been made. Agendas are not always for the better and don't need to be applied to everything in life.

Now that we have established yet again that I understand what you are saying but likely disagree with your (and likely many others here's) stance, I would like to move on from the topic and back to Smash if possible.

 

[Geno Boost]

They aren't mutually exclusive.

Shantae: "Am I a joke to you?"

Goddamn, that is on-point.

King Hippo is a better choice and still counts as Pacific Islander representation.

I do see King Hippo having an advantage he basically has a similar body structure to K. Rool and doesn’t have to be built from scratch completely since they have that making his development faster

 

[DarthEnderX]

Didn't white skin pretty much evolve for the sole sake of surviving in the cold, northern regions? Unless Norse mythology makes specific mention of people from the lands far south of Scandinavia, it should be pretty reasonable to think that most if not all figures depicted in the lore would be light-skinned.

For the humans, yeah. The gods in Norse mythology aren't even from Earth, much less Scandinavia.

 

[osby]

Just like how in Artemis Fowl the race of elves is what most would actually call faeries, what with being smaller and having wings. Elves generally speaking are most humanoid and human-sized, slender and elegant. I have made edits to common races in campaigns I've made with great effect.

You are explaining things that the average person understands, after I already stated it's not that big a deal. I get it, creative freedom and expression. I support it. The problem is that sometimes creators do things because they have pressure from those with an agenda or they themselves have an agenda and working that in is more important than source material or integrity of the story or world they are creating.

If someone was crafting a story in a Southern state that is well-known for being very much predominantly white and they are making the story accurate to modern day and not a fantasy story and suddenly that state is primarily black for no reason that is justified...that's probably an agenda, and it's also inaccurate and can ruin worldbuilding and immersion. If a character is known in their source material to be a white man and they take the story to the silver screen and suddenly that role is played by a black woman and it's NOT an adaptation or spin-off of some sort? There is no reason for that other than an agenda, and people tend to not like that.

You know that whole thing about not wanting James Bond to be black? It's not for any negative reason: it's that James Bond has been primarily white, and that is because Europe only has 2% of the population that is black. The odds that a European spy would be white are massive, and even with millions of black people in Europe he would be much more noticeable for being black...which depending on your job as a spy, could be okay in certain jobs but could be more of a hindrance potentially. What about the talks of remaking Lord of the Flies, where young boys tear each other apart because they are young and have no adult supervision while stranded on an island, and making it completely with girls? Biologically and psychologically speaking, the results would be completely different, which defeats the purpose of Lord of the Flies: the story is basically a setup to show how society can collapse without proper structure, yet they knowingly are making it an all-female cast and seemingly are making more about struggle for survival with success in the end. Just call it something else and make your story instead of ruining prior great works.

I could keep going, and there are many more examples, and there is the extra funny bit when the reverse happens and people freak out but it's fine when a trait that is considered a majority is swapped to that of a minority and you shouldn't complain about it...but the point has been made. Agendas are not always for the better and don't need to be applied to everything in life.

Now that we have established yet again that I understand what you are saying but likely disagree with your (and likely many others here's) stance, I would like to move on from the topic and back to Smash if possible.

That's a lot of words for "I can excuse media creating fictional worlds for telling fictional stories but I draw the line at black characters."

 

[ForsakenM]

That's a lot of words for "I can excuse media creating fictional worlds for telling fictional stories but I draw the line at black characters."

Apparently so many words you couldn't properly read them all because you came to the wrong conclusion. How unfortunate for you.

I had multiple paragraphs that were essentially describing my personal way of crafting worlds and characters as evidence that not only is what you said incorrect about me personally but offers insight into how people in positions of wealth use this ideal of needing every minority to be represented in everything (you know, despite being a minority, thus lesser representation makes sense in many scenarios), but I realized that you highly value your surface level traits based on prior posts and that I don't need to justify myself to someone who isn't willing to listen. Also, I want to talk about Smash, not how people submerged in modern politics are letting the actual problem people play them like fiddles.
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So speaking on Smash, I'm eager to know.

We already have a confirmed next-gen console coming, so how soon do you think it will come out, and what odds do you think Smash and other big 1st party titles like Mario and such will get new games early-on it the systems lifecycle? Feel free to give actual numbers in terms of months or years if you like.

I think we have about two years before we get an announcement of the new console, with it launching 3-6 months after it's announcement. I think Smash could easily be another launch title, maybe within a year of the release of the console seems possible.

 

[7NATOR]

-Injustice in Japan did not have much good sales at all I believe. Netherrealm games don't do too hot there

-With that being said, In spite of the lack of Presence in Japan and such, Mortal Kombat is way too big of a Franchise in the The West, Nintendo's Current Biggest market. It's literally the Best Selling Fighting Game Franchise, And among the Most Iconic franchises in the West. Ed Boon has also been down with the Idea of MK Characters in Smash. Nintendo were also the ones that told WB that "There is an audience for Mortal Kombat" when WB were worried about MK11 being on Switch. I don't see Nintendo Ignoring Mortal Kombat at all

It would have to be Base Roster I Imagine, since as DLC it might be too unappealing to the East. The Bright side to Mortal Kombat being in Base roster is that it would sell the Base game to the West really well

-Like how Adding Wesker is the Closet thing to adding in Matrix Character, or how Adding in Xemnas is the Closet thing to adding a Sith Master, Adding Mr. Sandman would be the Closet thing to Mike Tyson in Smash, which was a Main selling point of the OG Punch Out.

-The one thing I'd be curious about. I wonder how the Reception would be if Nintendo and/or Sakurai added in a POC character, but it's also the New Fire Emblem Protagonist. Of course it would depend on how the character themselves actually are

-As for the Idea of a POC character in Smash, as a Black person themselves, I know my Friend would love it, and would personally be neat to me, but to be honest, It's not where my interests lie. The character options aren't the most interesting for me, and/or are very unlikely to get in. I would be cool with Elma, Shantae would be cool, I'd be interested how they do any of the Punch out characters with Mac being how he is, I'd be down for Juri from Street Fighter, and I also actually kind of want Ramlethal from Guilty Gear, but I know they isn't getting in (Well maybe the former 2 can)

I think the best option for POC character would be if any New Nintendo game features a Protagonist that happens to be POC, or if Xenoblade Chronicles X gets a Sequel or something.

One thing I wonder about is whether some people want just a Character with a Particular Skin Color like Dark Sin, or they also want some of the more Prominent (Usual) Features of a race and/or the Cultures associated with a particular race. Like Elma would be Dark Sinned, but it's not like she some of the usual features you'll see in people from African descent. Then again that opens alot of can of words since in real life, people of certain races have alot of features that deviate from what people consider the usual. This especially goes true for Culture also

Also just on a tangent, part of me also wonders if alot of the POC talk is defaulting to primarily Black skin and/or Cultures, this also goes for what's been seen in games recently. Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Native American, other Parts of the East like Korea and China (Who on China, we actually got Min Min in the game) are examples of other Races and such that could fit under the POC talk, but they tend to fall under the wayside both in the discussion of POC characters and even in some of the Marketing and features in games these days, at least from what I see.

Apparently so many words you couldn't properly read them all because you came to the wrong conclusion. How unfortunate for you.

I had multiple paragraphs that were essentially describing my personal way of crafting worlds and characters as evidence that not only is what you said incorrect about me personally but offers insight into how people in positions of wealth use this ideal of needing every minority to be represented in everything (you know, despite being a minority, thus lesser representation makes sense in many scenarios), but I realized that you highly value your surface level traits based on prior posts and that I don't need to justify myself to someone who isn't willing to listen. Also, I want to talk about Smash, not how people submerged in modern politics are letting the actual problem people play them like fiddles.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So speaking on Smash, I'm eager to know.

We already have a confirmed next-gen console coming, so how soon do you think it will come out, and what odds do you think Smash and other big 1st party titles like Mario and such will get new games early-on it the systems lifecycle? Feel free to give actual numbers in terms of months or years if you like.

I think we have about two years before we get an announcement of the new console, with it launching 3-6 months after it's announcement. I think Smash could easily be another launch title, maybe within a year of the release of the console seems possible.

The New console will probably come some time in 2023 or 2024. I don't see it getting to 2025 for the New Console to come out, even if the Switch has been highly successful beyond what Nintendo might have thought it would be. They probably sell the Switch for a little longer even after the New Console has come out and have games made for it, Because alot of the Install Base is on the Switch already. My Guess would be Early 2024 for the Console

I think Mario Kart 9 and the Next Smash (whether Ultimate Continuation or New game) would be Launch titles, or at least MK9 will. I could see the New Mario also following that same suit. I could see Smash coming out a little later after Launch though. April-May 2024 is when the 25th anniversary is gonna come for the Franchise, so either that's when the game gets announced, or around the time the game is released. I'm going with the Latter

I also think that if Nintendo has made Negotiations already with Companies to add their characters to Smash, I think it should be sooner rather than later since the more time you waste, the more chances opportunities can falter in terms of Impact.

One thing I have to wonder is I believe the Switch was Shadowdropped the day of wasn't it? like we knew there was a New console, but we didn't know it be a Switch till the day it came out. If it happened like that, could it happen the same way with this new Console, or will Nintendo actually advertise it before release like usual?

 

[ForsakenM]

The New console will probably come some time in 2023 or 2024. I don't see it getting to 2025 for the New Console to come out, even if the Switch has been highly successful beyond what Nintendo might have thought it would be. They probably sell the Switch for a little longer even after the New Console has come out and have games made for it, Because alot of the Install Base is on the Switch already. My Guess would be Early 2024 for the Console

I think Mario Kart 9 and the Next Smash (whether Ultimate Continuation or New game) would be Launch titles, or at least MK9 will. I could see the New Mario also following that same suit. I could see Smash coming out a little later after Launch though. April-May 2024 is when the 25th anniversary is gonna come for the Franchise, so either that's when the game gets announced, or around the time the game is released. I'm going with the Latter

I also think that if Nintendo has made Negotiations already with Companies to add their characters to Smash, I think it should be sooner rather than later since the more time you waste, the more chances opportunities can falter in terms of Impact.

One thing I have to wonder is I believe the Switch was Shadowdropped the day of wasn't it? like we knew there was a New console, but we didn't know it be a Switch till the day it came out. If it happened like that, could it happen the same way with this new Console, or will Nintendo actually advertise it before release like usual?

I remember an entire presentation for the console and it's HD Rumble where the whole 'snapping fingers to Switch' was first introduced. Not sure when it was though.

MK9 is a very good guess, as I don't MK8D will keep selling on a new console like it is for Switch. Also, I agree with the time frame a bit, though I think 2023 is more likely personally. We already have signs like how the OLED is basically the new base Switch and games pushing the consoles limits that shows we are in for a new system sooner rather than later.

I also think Smash would be a launch title, but either later in the year or the year after, but technically early enough on to be a launch title. I think it would benefit them more to have it be as close to launch as possible as you really need titles to sell a new system and Smash DOES and WILL. This is why I sincerely think this will be an updated version of Ultimate with everything returning plus more and I personally think Sakurai is at least in the planning stages for it already but will have some time to rest beforehand since it's mostly using what has already been made.

As far as a new DK game goes, I'm wondering if it will show up before or after the next-gen console. I'm also wondering if Prime 4 got pushed to the next console since it has been reworked so much.

 

[dream1ng]

The issue is there's no reason to expect Smash's selection process will suddenly start to operate in a new way that caters to different demand. People can want what they want for whatever reasons are important to them, but you've got to be able to draw the line between your reasons and Smash's reasons.

There's no evidence to suggest Smash will start selecting characters on the basis of gender or race. Smash picks characters based on its own criteria, and there's a chance they would fit someone else's, but it would be incidental. People were wailing for more female characters, and then we got Byleth, but Byleth wasn't chosen to bring more female representation to the roster.

So... what people have to do, should they find those distinctions important, is to compromise and play by Smash's rules, because Smash holds the power. To that end, they're going to have to find a character that checks all their identity boxes (superficial as that might seem to some), and push for that character. Because that's the way you can impact the roster - by pushing for specific characters.

General "add more [characters grouped by specific trait]" doesn't work. Whether that trait is dark skin, or being female, or western, or being from a specific series, or what have you. People can keep at it, but chances are it's going to amount to shouting into the void. And that's the pitfall of a lot of these efforts, not tailoring them to Smash's methods but nevertheless maintaining their believed efficacy presumably on the basis of the perceived virtue, or at least legitimacy, of the nature of the request.

That would be my suggestion here. Pick a character that suits your desires and start pushing sooner than later given you have enough time to get the ball rolling and build up momentum into next time. Because frankly, just asking for more PoC in general isn't going to work. It's also unabashedly tokenism to rally behind some character on the basis of their skin color above all else, but, well, do you want to give it your best shot or not?

Though I'd also recommend choosing a character that they'd be more inclined to add anyway. Like not a minor one like Mr. Sandman or one that's going to have to fight against a promo option, like Elma vs. whoever the new Xenoblade character is.

And we're talking about racial representation here, but like I said, this really applies to any time asking for a trait above a specific character is done. Don't do it that way; pick an actual character, and get people behind a candidate instead of an idea. Because popularity for the latter rarely goes anywhere. Look at how asking for "a Zelda character" is going.

 

[ceterisparibus]

I mean recognizability to the general audience is something Doomguy does have. He's far from a niche character. Even leaving aside the older games, and especially the first and most well known one, the two reboot games sold incredibly well and are very well regarded. These comparisons and the general narrative of your post make Doom out to be a small, niche franchise when it's anything but.

I did specify that DOOM is iconic, although perhaps my earlier tone might not have indicated so, so i apologize.

The gist of my point is that there are other FPS games that are bigger/more recognizable than the game itself, and given the trend of picking the biggest stars from each genre first, the odds were never that good to begin with (along with other issues). That said, since the whole genre has been viewed poorly by japan (eternal sold 10k - hardly a showing any prospective smash inclusion wants) and there are other issues so i can understand why we have had 0 playable inclusion.

So I really dislike the idea of saying 'X has literally no chance because of Y' since, ya know, this happened?

But like, people talking a lot of Mortal Kombat recently, and I'm not sure if everyone forgot, but Japan really doesn't like the violence of MK and it's not even localised...so Japanese gamers have to buy it and have it shipped from overseas to play it...and I'm pretty sure it's not that popular in Japan anyway.

Not to mention China has banned if for sure, as well as possibly other countries either banning or doing what Japan has done.

The more I dig into it, the more difficult it seems for MK to get in, maybe even worse than Sora had upon reflection. The best chance is to use Injustice versions of the characters in terms of design and lack of gore, but then you have issues of series integrity and the fact that only characters that have popularity in Japan have gotten in so far so if there is too small a market it crushes MK's chances.

Once again, not impossible, but I think Chief is more likely and Halo and Xbox do horrible in Japan.

I kind of agree that violence/gore is the main reason why we'll likely never see MK with playable status - sure people are bound to point towards persona/metal gear/bayonetta as examples of "shoving the rule in", but
1. gore/violence is viewed with a very different lens compared to other mature content
2. there's actually a clear distinction between the latter/former. The latter are rated as CERO D whereas the former has every single game being strictly placed as CERO Z.

It's kind of sad though - the franchise is easily the biggest fighting game excluding smash today, but is unlikely to join the fight anytime because of the following. A scorpion mii costume along the lines of the doomslayer would be a good compromise, imho.

 

[slrigeigdew]

So... what people have to do, should they find those distinctions important, is to compromise and play by Smash's rules, because Smash holds the power. To that end, they're going to have to find a character that checks all their identity boxes (superficial as that might seem to some), and push for that character. Because that's the way you can impact the roster - by pushing for specific characters.

General "add more [characters grouped by specific trait]" doesn't work. Whether that trait is dark skin, or being female, or western, or being from a specific series, or what have you. People can keep at it, but chances are it's going to amount to shouting into the void. And that's the pitfall of a lot of these efforts, not tailoring them to Smash's methods but nevertheless maintaining their believed efficacy presumably on the basis of the perceived virtue, or at least legitimacy, of the nature of the request.

That would be my suggestion here. Pick a character that suits your desires and start pushing sooner than later given you have enough time to get the ball rolling and build up momentum into next time. Because frankly, just asking for more PoC in general isn't going to work. It's also unabashedly tokenism to rally behind some character on the basis of their skin color above all else, but, well, do you want to give it your best shot or not?

Though I'd also recommend choosing a character that they'd be more inclined to add anyway. Like not a minor one like Mr. Sandman or one that's going to have to fight against a promo option, like Elma vs. whoever the new Xenoblade character is.

And we're talking about racial representation here, but like I said, this really applies to any time asking for a trait above a specific character is done. Don't do it that way; pick an actual character, and get people behind a candidate instead of an idea. Because popularity for the latter rarely goes anywhere. Look at how asking for "a Zelda character" is going.

This is great advice for anyone who wants more variety in the next Smash game. If you want more characters to represent a certain genre or demographic, rally around popular characters that happen to fall in that category. Want more FPS characters? Fight for Master Chief and Doom Guy. Want more robot characters? Support 2B and Fulgore.

One of the common complaints I've seen people levied against the DLC in Ultimate was, ironically enough, lack of diversity in the genres and body types the characters represented citing the abundance of humanoid JRPG swordsmen (and women). was a nice departure from that pattern but he wasn't picked because Sakurai suddenly thought we needed more cartoon animals from western platformers. He was picked because he placed high on the Ballot and his company was easy to work with, according to Sakurai. People also wanted more villains in Smash and after several years of demanding we got them in the base roster. Crazy how that works huh?

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Hey!
Remember that DarthEnderX said that King Hippo is Smash 6 Nintendo Villain Rep?
Well, I think he has small chance, because he would be Bland Copy of King. K. Rool, he is too fat for jumping, he would only Punch and Eat.
(No offense, but that's my perspective of how King Hippo would work)

 

[Garteam]

I think if you wanted a PoC character in Smash (beyond Ryu and Joker), I'd say CJ would be your best bet. He's the fan-favourite protagonist (aside from maybe Trevor) from one of gaming's most iconic and influential series and could bring an incredibly interesting moveset and stage.

 

[Megadoomer]

Hey!
Remember that DarthEnderX said that King Hippo is Smash 6 Nintendo Villain Rep?
Well, I think he has small chance, because he would be Bland Copy of King. K. Rool, he is too fat for jumping, he would only Punch and Eat.
(No offense, but that's my perspective of how King Hippo would work)

Little Mac can barely jump, and he can only punch, and yet they made a move-set out of him.

We've gotten the dog from Duck Hunt, a yoga instructor from Wii Fit, an amalgamation of 20+ separate Game & Watch titles, and the freaking Piranha Plant (normally a barely-mobile obstacle) as playable characters. At this point, I'm not sure how we can dismiss anyone for a lack of moveset potential; for all I know, they could add Dr. Goomba Tower or Silver Neelsen from F-Zero and still make it seem plausible.

(I'm not saying that either of those are likely, mind you; they're just the first examples that came to mind)

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Little Mac can barely jump, and he can only punch, and yet they made a move-set out of him.

We've gotten the dog from Duck Hunt, a yoga instructor from Wii Fit, an amalgamation of 20+ separate Game & Watch titles, and the freaking Piranha Plant (normally a barely-mobile obstacle) as playable characters. At this point, I'm not sure how we can dismiss anyone for a lack of moveset potential; for all I know, they could add Dr. Goomba Tower or Silver Neelsen from F-Zero and still make it seem plausible.

(I'm not saying that either of those are likely, mind you; they're just the first examples that came to mind)

Also, they would include Urban Champion, Andross, Mother Brain, Bubbles (Clu Clu Land) and other Lack-Potential characters in Smash.
And You're right about Little Mac, but King Hippo is more heavier than Mac and he could be too fat for Jumping. Bowser and big body and Muscled legs, while King Hippo has less-muscled.

 

[Oracle Link]

I hope that atleast everyone agrees that we need more Villan Representtion!
Stuff we need villainwise (from Nintendo):
Bowsers Castle (although if we could stop Mushroom kingdom U and paper mario on the castle segments that would maybe suffice!)
A Ganon Castle stage (maybe it could be a reverse Hyrule temple?)
a second Zelda Villain (best cases for me would be either Skull kid or Vaati)
A Typical kirby Final Boss (you know a cosmic Horror of course marx and magolor would fight in their cute forms so i think Dark Matter would be the best choice for That)
A earthbound/ Mother Villain (its either giygas as a mewtu clone or porky but no matter what considering that NPC is pretty we should get a better playing version of that stage + atleast any reffrence to porky!)
A Pokemon Evil Team Leader (Giovanni is the most likely case but Cyrus, GCis and Lusamine are pretty popular too!)
A Andross Stage/ Boss
And if Bosses get their own stages just let us play on them even if they suck! (i mean you could downsize them!)
Edit: we could include Sandman hes the First party Black Char that has the best reasons to be in Smash (being the main final boss in a lot of Punchout games)

 

[MarioRaccoon]

So speaking on Smash, I'm eager to know.

We already have a confirmed next-gen console coming, so how soon do you think it will come out, and what odds do you think Smash and other big 1st party titles like Mario and such will get new games early-on it the systems lifecycle? Feel free to give actual numbers in terms of months or years if you like.

I think we have about two years before we get an announcement of the new console, with it launching 3-6 months after it's announcement. I think Smash could easily be another launch title, maybe within a year of the release of the console seems possible.

As we can see with all games announce (including these rumoured) for 2022 and maybe beyond, Nintendo clearly wants to repeat the first wave of switch titles (2017 and very early 2018) with sequels..

Spatoon 2 -> Splatoon 3
Bayonetta 1/2 -> Bayonetta 3
Kirby Star Allies -> Kirby And the Forgotten Land
Zelda BOTW -> Zelda BOTW2
Xenoblade 2 -> Xenoblade 3
Mario + Rabbids -> Mario + Rabbids 2
FE SoV (3DS game but the point still stands …) -> FE 4 Remake

To repeat that first Switch year, they still need to release 3 more sequels or entries; Mario Kart, 3D Mario and a new project lead by Yabuki and his team (ARMS 2? Or a new IP? new Nintendogs?)

I can see that next Yabuki project will be released in 2022.
Next Mario Kart will likely be a OG Switch title. If Splatoon 3 will run on the actual hardware, why not next MK? I imagine it is planned to be released somewhere in 2023 (my guess is spring). Thats +6 years from 8DX release and +9 from the WiiU version.
Next 3D Mario is possible another 2023 game, I suppose its in developed for OG swtich too…

When we will get a new hardware? Possible in the next 18 months (between late 2022/early 2023). What it will be ? A new iteration of switch hardware with very similar form factor (dimension, oled 720p screen, same joycon, docked, etc) but with much more powerful hardware, capable running actual switch games with 4k resolution (via smart upscaling techniques). Its a successor or a pro model? We don’t know, its just a new member of switch family.

Will it have exclusive titles? 2022 surely not, 2023 probably also not. Maybe by 2024. Actual hardware is enough for a good chunk of nintendo productions like remasters/remakes or titles commonly associated nowdays with portable gaming (example: a new 2D Zelda game). Nintendo supported 3DS 8 years (2011 - 2019), so wouldn’t be strange they have plans for switch titles until around 2025.

 

[Gengar84]

I hope that atleast everyone agrees that we need more Villan Representtion!
Stuff we need villainwise (from Nintendo):
Bowsers Castle (although if we could stop Mushroom kingdom U and paper mario on the castle segments that would maybe suffice!)
A Ganon Castle stage (maybe it could be a reverse Hyrule temple?)
a second Zelda Villain (best cases for me would be either Skull kid or Vaati)
A Typical kirby Final Boss (you know a cosmic Horror of course marx and magolor would fight in their cute forms so i think Dark Matter would be the best choice for That)
A earthbound/ Mother Villain (its either giygas as a mewtu clone or porky but no matter what considering that NPC is pretty we should get a better playing version of that stage + atleast any reffrence to porky!)
A Pokemon Evil Team Leader (Giovanni is the most likely case but Cyrus, GCis and Lusamine are pretty popular too!)
A Andross Stage/ Boss
And if Bosses get their own stages just let us play on them even if they suck! (i mean you could downsize them!)
Edit: we could include Sandman hes the First party Black Char that has the best reasons to be in Smash (being the main final boss in a lot of Punchout games)

Yeah, I think Ultimate was a great start with adding more villains but I’d love to see a lot more. Many of my favorite video game characters are villains or at least have been at one point. I’d love to see Magus, Xemnas, Sarah Kerrigan, Arthas, Diablo, Fulgore, Sub-Zero, Jenna Anderson, Medusa, Nightmare, and many more.

 

[Oracle Link]

Yeah, I think Ultimate was a great start with adding more villains but I’d love to see a lot more. Many of my favorite video game characters are villains or at least have been at one point. I’d love to see Magus, Xemnas, Sarah Kerrigan, Arthas, Diablo, Xemnas, Fulgore, Sub-Zero, Jenna Anderson, Medusa, Nightmare, and many more.

The problem with them is the whole third party thing! Which may get less focus in the next smash!

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

I hope that atleast everyone agrees that we need more Villan Representtion!
Stuff we need villainwise (from Nintendo):
Bowsers Castle (although if we could stop Mushroom kingdom U and paper mario on the castle segments that would maybe suffice!)
A Ganon Castle stage (maybe it could be a reverse Hyrule temple?)
a second Zelda Villain (best cases for me would be either Skull kid or Vaati)
A Typical kirby Final Boss (you know a cosmic Horror of course marx and magolor would fight in their cute forms so i think Dark Matter would be the best choice for That)
A earthbound/ Mother Villain (its either giygas as a mewtu clone or porky but no matter what considering that NPC is pretty we should get a better playing version of that stage + atleast any reffrence to porky!)
A Pokemon Evil Team Leader (Giovanni is the most likely case but Cyrus, GCis and Lusamine are pretty popular too!)
A Andross Stage/ Boss
And if Bosses get their own stages just let us play on them even if they suck! (i mean you could downsize them!)
Edit: we could include Sandman hes the First party Black Char that has the best reasons to be in Smash (being the main final boss in a lot of Punchout games)

Andross as a Boss character?
<- Why?
Lusamine as Playable?
Nah...
Mother Villain?
Yes, Porky! Giygas, as Boss.

 

[Oracle Link]

Andross as a Boss character?
<- Why?
Lusamine as Playable?
Nah...
Mother Villain?
Yes, Porky! Giygas, as Boss.

I mean ive would prefer him as a stage too!

I did doubt in putting Lusamine (its her SM version not ultra) there but her chances are much higher than lysander and rose who are known to be worst poke villains by a mile (i guess ultra Lusamine is too) and maxie and archie have the problem of needing to be together! Also her Nihelego form is pretty unique (although i didnt think about that) so shes on the more likely side but still far lower than the Big Three!

Yeah im a Bigger porky fan too but if nintendo cuts corners they might wanna do the Exact opposite and reuse the Porky boss and a Giygas (Giegue/Giyig) Echo Fighter! Even tho yeah it makes more sense the Other way Arround!

 

[Sucumbio]

Yeah, I think Ultimate was a great start with adding more villains but I’d love to see a lot more. Many of my favorite video game characters are villains or at least have been at one point. I’d love to see Magus, Xemnas, Sarah Kerrigan, Arthas, Diablo, Fulgore, Sub-Zero, Jenna Anderson, Medusa, Nightmare, and many more.

Wesker.

/anyoneelse :{O

But seriously he'd be so great as re rep imho

 

[Gengar84]

Wesker.

/anyoneelse :{O

But seriously he'd be so great as re rep imho

I think my top choice for a Resident Evil character is Nemesis but Wesker would be cool too. I imagine he’d probably have zombies in his moveset somewhere. I just like the idea of more nonhuman representation.

 

[Oracle Link]

So i know this is the wrong place and i already spammed a bit!
But Kirby fans we need a new place to Discuss Chars, the next Games, cute Stuff Etc. The BWD Thread was the best place on this Plattform!
So we need anew kirby thread i cannot do that!
Also i did alraeyd mention this but i do want a small credit if you do make one! (im just really down right now and that would make me really happy!)
Edit: also now ill wait 24 Hours! with doing more encouraging i know im annoying but im also wise sometimes (and other times dumb but still) and that not something i say about me other people say it most Edit (sometimes) of the time in RL!

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Okay that I can definitely agree with. People cry "Politics!" at every little thing now, and it's becoming hella irritating. Not only is this discussion just about some facts of life and not really political, but also people probably should want to talk about politics every now and then cuz it's super important to our daily lives? Do not get the sudden paralyzing fear of politics on the net these days.

If you want to talk about Politics, you are free to do so. Just like others are free to not talk about it as well. It's not like most political discussions actually lead to any productive or constructive. It just leads to potshots and mugsling and not everyone wants to deal such toxicity with that day to day especially when it comes to hobbies and entertainment that used to escape such things as well other things in life. Escapism as you will. It's not surprising why people try to avoid it as much as possible.

I just asked the question as, these few pages has shown, it's an interesting topic but not a topic that should go on and on. It's still a Smash Speculation thread after all

Hey guys, I had a thought the other day. It was great to see Sora from Kingdom Hearts get into Smash, and Disney by extension in the copyright section of the game. Now, I am not sure if Sora will be back, but if he does, now they just need to get Scorpion and another Mortal Kombat character in the next Smash Bros. and we can have Warner Bros. in the copyright section, and then we can have Disney versus Warner Bros!...in a way.

Still, knowing how Mortal Kombat is viewed in Japan, and since Mortal Kombat is an American game, that might be rather difficult to do.

Isn't Mortal Kombat illegal in Japan? I doubt Smash Bros would be able to be published if that was the case

 

[Gengar84]

It’s a real tricky balancing act trying to support and bring attention to characters I love without going overboard and becoming annoying. I’m not sure what the best way to try to build support is. If I don’t push enough, the character will probably be largely ignored but pushing too much could have the opposite intended effect and cause people to dislike the character because they are sick of hearing about them.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

So speaking on Smash, I'm eager to know.

We already have a confirmed next-gen console coming, so how soon do you think it will come out, and what odds do you think Smash and other big 1st party titles like Mario and such will get new games early-on it the systems lifecycle? Feel free to give actual numbers in terms of months or years if you like.

I think we have about two years before we get an announcement of the new console, with it launching 3-6 months after it's announcement. I think Smash could easily be another launch title, maybe within a year of the release of the console seems possible.

#

At least 2-3 years max. Metroid Prime 4 will be, no doubt, the BOTW of the Switch Successor. They might as well since the game is now restarted from scratch. Mario and Zelda will be there, Year 1. Spin-Off or Main title? Idrk but they both will on first year to create momentum for sales

I doubt Smash will be a launch title or launch year title to be honest. Too soon. At least 1-2 years after the successors release. Hope Sakurai and Team get enough time this time around and not have rush and cut corners like Melee and Ultimate. Hearing Sakurai on a IV drip isn't great to hear.

It’s a real tricky balancing act trying to support and bring attention to characters I love without going overboard and becoming annoying. I’m not sure what the best way to try to build support is. If I don’t push enough, the character will probably be largely ignored but pushing too much could have the opposite intended effect and cause people to dislike the character because they are sick of hearing about them.

Just keep giving support regardless. Find fans and like-minded individuals of the character and make a campaign and keep pus. Who cares if people find it annoying or not. It's none of your or mine business to worry, that's their problem. I can't control the reactions but I can control my situation and that is support my favorites to the fullest til they appear in Smash. People bash my favs like Geno all the time saying he's "irrevelant" and "annoying fans". Guess what? I'm still going to root for him no matter what. Screw haters and detractors.

Just keep supporting them and don't worry about balance. Balance isn't the invitation that gets them to Smash. Rally and Support does. Happened for MegaMan, Ridley, K.Rool, Banjo and Sora. Balance and worrying about detractors' feelings didn't make Geno, Issac and Shantae the big 3 of SmashBoards.

Just keeping pushing.

 

[Delzethin]

I'm more of a gameplay-first kind of person. I get interested in potential newcomers for their moveset potential or uniqueness. The more untapped a niche they can fill as a playable fighter, the better.

Which is why it's always weird for me when speculation starts talking about "representing" ideas. Comes off like people are caring more about the roster than the game itself. Adding more villain characters just for the sake of having them present without bothering to ask how they'd actually stand out in gameplay feels like it misses the point. Same with adding other categories like characters from Western-developed series or first person shooters.

The Smash roster isn't trying to be a "Gaming Hall of Fame"; that's just what a lot of fans have decided it must be. If you want to advocate for a character, argue why they'd stand out next to the other fighters and be compelling to play as, not why they or their role/genre/company "should" be here.

Besides, we all know a character with an FPS playstyle would top the same fans' "least favorite to fight against" lists just like Banjo did.

That said...I sympathize with the people who wish we had more minority representation. I've realized over time that there're whole swaths of fans who feel like they have few-to-no characters to truly identify with. Hopefully we see more major characters who are LGBT/PoC/etc. going forward, with standout abilities that'd help them feel unique, so more of them have serious chances of making the next Smash game.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Isn't Mortal Kombat illegal in Japan? I doubt Smash Bros would be able to be published if that was the case

I don’t think it’s illegal like you are committing a delit. Its that (as Sakurai said before) CERO rating system is more strict than ESRB and if Warner wants to release MK over there, they need to censor gore stuff like fatalities and other techniques/animations. They need to redone lots of stuff to fit CERO criterias and clearly they aren’t interested.

Resident Evil games, for example, are also censored in japan. Particularly, the death scenes of characters when you loose. Despite that, the series was a huge hit there, being one of the best PS1 sellings titles.

Netherless, as I said before, if they ever include Scorpion or Sub-Zero (or both lol) as fighters in smash, their content will likely be based (appearence, moves, stages, spirits) on the first 4 games (1, 2, 3 and Trilogy). Those games were released on japan and they don’t feature too much violence aside from fatalities.

 

[Gengar84]

I'm more of a gameplay-first kind of person. I get interested in potential newcomers for their moveset potential or uniqueness. The more untapped a niche they can fill as a playable fighter, the better.

Which is why it's always weird for me when speculation starts talking about "representing" ideas. Comes off like people are caring more about the roster than the game itself. Adding more villain characters just for the sake of having them present without bothering to ask how they'd actually stand out in gameplay feels like it misses the point. Same with adding other categories like characters from Western-developed series or first person shooters.

The Smash roster isn't trying to be a "Gaming Hall of Fame"; that's just what a lot of fans have decided it must be. If you want to advocate for a character, argue why they'd stand out next to the other fighters and be compelling to play as, not why they or their role/genre/company "should" be here.

Besides, we all know a character with an FPS playstyle would top the same fans' "least favorite to fight against" lists just like Banjo did.

That said...I sympathize with the people who wish we had more minority representation. I've realized over time that there're whole swaths of fans who feel like they have few-to-no characters to truly identify with. Hopefully we see more major characters who are LGBT/PoC/etc. going forward, with standout abilities that'd help them feel unique, so more of them have serious chances of making the next Smash game.

I mostly root for characters that appeal to me. A lot of the time, those characters just happen to be villains. There’s just a certain style of character I tend to gravitate towards. I’ve always really liked darker or “edgy” characters and just found them cool. It’s not really a case of wanting villains just for the sake of having villains, although there is an appeal to that as well.

I don’t know how many other people are like me but I just love having matches against the AI pitting heroes against villains. It just like that the characters have someone to fight against. This likely doesn’t matter much for anyone who is more focused on the competitive aspect of Smash but I’ve always been on the strictly casual side of things so stuff like that matters to me more than most people.