Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[ForsakenM]

If you say that it's important that you are able to speak Spanish, not just English, it means you still have to be able to speak English.

People cling on to this statement like Sakurai said he wanted to add Geno all over again, but seem to completely ignore that it's saying a character does need to be recognizable, and are injecting the implication that all those other, more recognizable options presumably wouldn't be fun.

Well, after Terry we got Steve, Sephiroth, Kazuya and Sora, so I guess "fun" is not some quality found few and far between with candidates, and it's not something incongruent with very big names. And half of those characters were beforehand argued as options that wouldn't feasibly work. Do you think the current, highly visible characters requested wouldn't be fun? I think they have just as much potential to be fun as anyone else.

So I don't think people forget it so much as they realize it's not as meaningful a statement as others believe it to be.

Also Lucas was so requested for 4 because he was a veteran that didn't return, not because of Mother 3. Look at Roy. When ICs got popular did you think it was because of all those fans of the NES title? It's not even a good game.

Except he said that doing Terry's presentation, when he was a character no one in the smash community really knew about because they are relatively uncultured to games outside of Smash or the Nintendo sphere in addition to SNK having been out of the picture up until more recently.

Also it's not saying a character DOES need to be recognizable: it's saying their moveset needs to be able to be fun to play and that this is valued higher than being recognizable. It's obvious that Sakurai thinks Geno would be fun to play since he's been trying to get him in since Brawl and admitted in 2016 that he thinks this about him.

It's hilarious how someone can see this image and get something that wasn't even intended out of it.

EDIT: Wow, there is more wrong with your post then I first realized.

First off, Steve was thought to be hard to work because of how he looks and how hard it would be to code, which ended up being true coding-wise. Sephiroth was actually thought to be too strong and his sword a problem, but Sakurai had already made Min Min so he decided it was fine. Kazuya got picked over Heihachi because he couldn't work in Smash and Sora almost didn't even happen. So anyone who thought these characters would have problems are justified, and acting like they aren't is purposely ignoring the facts of them having development difficulties.

Also, just because a characters is widely popular doesn't mean they could translate to Smash with a fun moveset, as Heihachi proves alone. Also Geno Boost never said anything about them being fun or not and you completely assumed his stance on Lucas entirely. He was simply stating Sakurai's own statement on what he and the team values. What Sakurai's own words mean is that even if a character is not as widely popular, as long as they are fun to play via a cool moveset, that matters more. Also people WERE upset because of Mother 3, because Lucas in Smash is some of the very little representation of the game outside Japan, so you are just wrong about that as well. I'll give you that MOST of the outrage was Smash fans throwing a fit about cut content, but acting as if the Mother fanbase said nothing is silly.

If you really think Sakurai needs a character to be both recognizable and fun in equal amounts, I'd like you to justify inclusions like IC, G&W, Rob, and frankly Shulk upon his initial reveal since many gamers had no idea who he was.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Can we have non-video game characters (or NVGC to make it shorter) will have at least playable representation?
I say, only if the new director is respectful and it's not of the characters that Sakrai Masahiro namedrop and denied their inclusion (namely Son Goku, SpongeBob SquarePants and Iron Man)

That would horrible idea. Smash as a series is supposed to celebrate Nintendo and Gaming history as a whole. 4th Party don't fit the bill especially with licensing costs

Has nothing to do with respect

 

[HyperSomari64]

Come on.
Super Smash Bros. had made-up fan rules broken through it's six games.
And if the next Smash breaks the boundary that M.S. established since it's inception on the Nintendo 64, we can say hello to a future rivalry with Fortnite in which has more Pop Culture icons on their pockets.

 

[ForsakenM]

Come on.
Super Smash Bros. had made-up fan rules broken through it's six games.
And if the next Smash breaks the boundary that M.S. established since it's inception on the Nintendo 64, we can say hello to a future rivalry with Fortnite in which has more Pop Culture icons on their pockets.

Yeah, no.

We can worry about that when Sakurai stops working on the game because he's in his 80s which would put me in my 60s and I can be worrying about retirement and social security instead of Smash becoming the absolute fustercluck shill monster that is Fortnite or anything comparable.

Also, something Sakurai said is a rule vs something we made up that he never said are DEFINITELY two different things.

 

[Will]

Come on.
Super Smash Bros. had made-up fan rules broken through it's six games.
And if the next Smash breaks the boundary that M.S. established since it's inception on the Nintendo 64, we can say hello to a future rivalry with Fortnite in which has more Pop Culture icons on their pockets.

I thought wanting Goku in Smash was just a meme. Y'all were for real?

 

[DarthEnderX]

She wouldn't have made it as an Assist Trophy if people didn't care or vote for her in the Ballot.

I'm not saying NOBODY cares about her. But he implied that a majority of people want her to be a Fighter. Which is just ridiculous.

I just want to say that when talking about possible Arc System Works series being in Smash, don't forget to mention Double Dragon.

Did you say River City?

f you say that it's important that you are able to speak Spanish, not just English, it means you still have to be able to speak English.

People cling on to this statement like Sakurai said he wanted to add Geno all over again, but seem to completely ignore that it's saying a character does need to be recognizable, and are injecting the implication that all those other, more recognizable options presumably wouldn't be fun.

Exactly.

Any character can be made to be fun. You can't make a character be recognizable. So pick a recognizable character, and then make them fun to play.

Real talk, Slippy would be sick.

Make Slippy in a Landmaster an AT. Just like how they turned Kirby's old FS into the Chef Kawasaki AT.

i was wondering what caused Krystal to stop appearing in starfox games? is it because its rareware creation or something? K. rool and his gang too are gone also from the donkey kong series

It's because the last two games, Zero and SF2, both take place before her introduction.

Can we have non-video game characters (or NVGC to make it shorter) will have at least playable representation?

**** no!

Come on.
Super Smash Bros. had made-up fan rules broken through it's six games.

"No 4th party" isn't a fanrule. It's the only actual rule Smash has.

I thought people really liked Duck Hunt's reveal.

Well, unlike ROB or Ice Climbers, lots of people actually played and liked Duck Hunt.[/QUOTE]

 

[ForsakenM]

Exactly.

Any character can be made to be fun. You can't make a character be recognizable. So pick a recognizable character, and then make them fun to play.

So Urban Champion can be fun?

Also, you missed the entire point: picking only recognizable characters meaning screwing over your fanbase, since a lot of the requests are characters Nintendo has shafted.

Your version of Smash is one I would avoid for sure. It would be nothing but big names, even if no one asked for them, while ignoring the fanbase. In other words, Banjo would have never gotten in and we would get more picks like Byleth just to push newer franchises since they are recognizable. You know, how Square almost went bankrupt again?

So much for River City Ransom.

 

[Garteam]

Takamaru would be dope.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Your version of Smash is one I would avoid for sure.

That's okay. For every copy you don't buy, I'll buy 2.

You know, how Square almost went bankrupt again?

Making Spirits Within?

 

[ForsakenM]

That's okay. For every copy you don't buy, I'll buy 2.

Man, this reminds me of something I experienced in 2019.

People saying they would copies of a games that was looking to be average at best based on easily-observable evidence.

What was that game again?

I can't remember, but it seems as though the company behind that game may have listened to the backlash despite the best effort of blind, cranium-deflated fans giving them tons of cash.

Making Spirits Within?

Probably part of it, but no, it was thinking they knew better and not listening to their fans.

Suddenly, they Rebirth with Realm Reborn and Remake and magically, fans have a better reception of them. It's almost like they stopped listening to their consumers and started catering to a different audience, that failed, then they went back to catering mostly to their audience.

Smash would be going down that path if they listened to you. I don't need 2B, Nate Drake, Kratos, Ellie, Jonesy, Wraith from Apex Legends, Colt Vahn from Death Loop, Dani Rojas from Far Cry 6, or anyone from Back 4 Blood coming anytime soon, which is what you proposed by going for recognizability. You might be able to toss in Crash, Dante, Monster Hunter or Ratchet and Clank in there, but you could just as easily get someone from CoD: Vanguard or Scarlet Nexus.

I'd much rather see The Wah, Dixie, BWD, Geno, Krystal, Isaac and the many other picks of games Nintendo should stop forgetting about and splashing in icons like Crash, Dante or Hayabusa. Once again, River City Ransom would have NO CHANCE with this priority, so you can kiss that wish goodbye if you push that narrative.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Did you say River City?

Oh! That too.

Well, unlike ROB or Ice Climbers, lots of people actually played and liked Duck Hunt.

Which is why I said that.

 

[DarthEnderX]

People saying they would copies of a games that was looking to be average at best based on easily-observable evidence.

What was that game again?

Hey! I bought that!

Smash would be going down that path if they listened to you. I don't need 2B, Nate Drake, Kratos, Ellie, Jonesy, Wraith from Apex Legends, Colt Vahn from Death Loop, Dani Rojas from Far Cry 6, or anyone from Back 4 Blood coming anytime soon, which is what you proposed by going for recognizability. You might be able to toss in Crash, Dante, Monster Hunter or Ratchet and Clank in there, but you could just as easily get someone from CoD: Vanguard or Scarlet Nexus.

I'd much rather see The Wah, Dixie, BWD, Geno, Krystal, Isaac and the many other picks of games Nintendo should stop forgetting about and splashing in icons like Crash, Dante or Hayabusa. Once again, River City Ransom would have NO CHANCE with this priority, so you can kiss that wish goodbye if you push that narrative.

Whatever you say, chief!

 

[ForsakenM]

Hey! I bought that!

Whatever you say, chief!

Idk man, looks like you aren't down with people getting characters they actually want, including yourself.

Either that or you are trolling.

 

[7NATOR]

I'm unsure on the Specifics on the conversation, but I'll throw in some opinion

I think the problem is that we've come to the Point where the Big, Recognizable characters in gaming...are also Among the Most Requested characters

Crash, Master Chief, Dante, Rayman, Ryu Hayabusa, 2B, Jonsey and More are just some of the Names I've seen thrown around the most. Characters like Scorpion and Kratos will also rise up if Warner Bros and/or Sony make the idea seem plausible (I think Ed Boon already did in terms of Mortal Kombat in Smash) This also isn't even getting to any of the Recognizable secondary characters like Any of the Sonic characters, Chun-Li, Zero, etc. Even Indies like Hollow Knight, Reimu, and Undertale related are taking over

So I think it does come to a point, where characters like Krystal probably have to get the shaft, just because not only is she not as Recognizable, but she's also not as Requested at the same time. that's a One Two combination right there. There's only so many characters that can be added, some characters has to get the Sacrifice. Krystal might be on that list. I think she's Cool, but it has to be what it's gonna be

Remember that it was Sora that was the most requested character on the Ballot, Along with Banjo being really high up there, and this was during a time where 3rd Parties hadn't exploded in Domination yet, where Nintendo Related characters held dominion over the requests. Those days are over now. Waluigi, Bandana Dee, and Isaac I think are carrying (And Kind of Geno, just because he still is Mario character at the end of the day) but that's as far as it goes in my Opinion. The Fanbase at large wants the Further Expansion into the 3rd party side, whether it be New Franchises, or expansion into some of the Existing 3rd parties, or whatever

Of course Another Main aspect is they have to be made Fun to Play, so I don't just see just any Big Blockbuster Franchise getting in. We not gonna see Ellie from Last of Us, COD Soldier, or any of that. On the same token, I think even some of the Requested characters fall into this (Capcom I think as a problem with this in particular)

 

[DarthEnderX]

Either that or you are trolling.

I mean, I'm not the one calling people cranium-deflated just because they liked a thing.

 

[ForsakenM]

I'm unsure on the Specifics on the conversation, but I'll throw in some opinion

I think the problem is that we've come to the Point where the Big, Recognizable characters in gaming...are also Among the Most Requested characters

Crash, Master Chief, Dante, Rayman, Ryu Hayabusa, 2B, Jonsey and More are just some of the Names I've seen thrown around the most. Characters like Scorpion and Kratos will also rise up if Warner Bros and/or Sony make the idea seem plausible (I think Ed Boon already did in terms of Mortal Kombat in Smash) This also isn't even getting to any of the Recognizable secondary characters like Any of the Sonic characters, Chun-Li, Zero, etc. Even Indies like Hollow Knight, Reimu, and Undertale related are taking over

So I think it does come to a point, where characters like Krystal probably have to get the shaft, just because not only is she not as Recognizable, but she's also not as Requested at the same time. that's a One Two combination right there. There's only so many characters that can be added, some characters has to get the Sacrifice. Krystal might be on that list. I think she's Cool, but it has to be what it's gonna be

Remember that it was Sora that was the most requested character on the Ballot, Along with Banjo being really high up there, and this was during a time where 3rd Parties hadn't exploded in Domination yet, where Nintendo Related characters held dominion over the requests. Those days are over now. Waluigi, Bandana Dee, and Isaac I think are carrying (And Kind of Geno, just because he still is Mario character at the end of the day) but that's as far as it goes in my Opinion. The Fanbase at large wants the Further Expansion into the 3rd party side, whether it be New Franchises, or expansion into some of the Existing 3rd parties, or whatever

Of course Another Main aspect is they have to be made Fun to Play, so I don't just see just any Big Blockbuster Franchise getting in. We not gonna see Ellie from Last of Us, COD Soldier, or any of that. On the same token, I think even some of the Requested characters fall into this (Capcom I think as a problem with this in particular)

I have to disagree because you are outright denying core fans who have already put in their votes.

So I find it fascinating that people think Krystal has just disappeared off the map. What is the new 'ist' term people are throwing out now...revisionist? Is that it?

Basically, everyone keeps talking about how popular Jonesy or 2B or Hollow Knight are...and yet they forget these characters didn't exist during the Smash Ballot. Did you know that Undertale was only out for about a month of the duration of the Smash Ballot? What about the fact that hype for Kratos only rose up with his new PS4 game, not that he wasn't popular already, but that most of his push was post-ballot?

You guys need to keep these things in mind, that if they are still using picks from the Smash Ballot, which they are because they would have given us the results if they weren't, that some of these things you are pushing did not have the support or even existed at all during that time. Charts like this would imply she did much better than you would think, and the fact that she went from nothing to an AT is a big enough deal in her own right.

Also keep in mind Ultimate was rushed: work started sometime in early 2016 and the game was golden in October of 2018. This isn't as bad as Melee which was only 13 months, but it is a very similar situation given it was roughly 30 months (give or take) and had to be made for a brand-new console that didn't debut until 2017 as well as the pressure to bring back as much as they could while adding new AND being the best Smash to honor the late Iwata. Remember than most AAA games that come out very polished tend to have 3-5 year dev cycle, whereas Ultimate only had around 2 and a half. There is a good chance many more characters were planned or at least considered during that time, especially with ARMS and XBC2, but there just wasn't enough time and releases didn't match up.

In other words, just because some characters got really popular or semi-popular during Ultimate's dev time doesn't mean they are somehow getting in to the next Smash. This is also true for characters that got a lot of push during Ultimate's actual life cycle, although I would suggest that someone like Dante has an incredibly good shot.

Also, we are doing this weird thing again where we think only popular characters have a chance, and by popular, I mean mainstream and crossing into Non-Smash community. Did the base additions to Ultimate teach you nothing? Since when was Ridley popular in the main gaming sphere? Did K. Rool get a game that was insanely popular yet magically never talked about? Wasn't old school Castlevania dead and Konami cared about pachinko more than actual games? That doesn't even go into Banjo or Terry who definitely do not fit this bill due to where they were at in terms of popularity when they were added.

I think what happened is that Joker, Steve and Sora got in and now people have this weird take where only really popular characters have a chance. Yeah, Sakurai DEFINITELY seems to be the kind of guy to throw away years of evidence for claims of characters people want just to go from what is mainstream. If we are honest with ourselves, I think we know why we got the DLC we did: Nintendo was a big player and Sakurai lost some of the control he had over these choices, while also fulfilling promises to himself and others that he didn't fulfill in Smash 4. I doubt we have to worry about that too much going into a Furakawa-lead Nintendo.

I mean, I'm not the one calling people cranium-deflated just because they liked a thing.

There is a difference between going against your own wants for some weird joke, and accurately describing people who wanted to buy multiple copies of an unpolished game made by a company that lied to them multiple times to support them and spite people who want that company to do better.

It's not my fault that the majority of the online support for Sword and Shield tried to make excuses for a AAA Fortune 500 company who factually lied to them.

You can like things that are of low quality, but what happened for SwiSh is on another level. I don't like telling companies with my wallet to continue to give me poor or lesser quality product then they used to. If you like paying more for less, by all means, but realize you are actively against your best interests and ruining the chances of that betterment for others.

Like I said, it's a good thing GameFreak seems to have listened to some degree by having BDSP done out of house while they focus on another project, and attempting to expand the horizons of mainline games and give people what they have asked for 20 years in the making. We have yet to see how this will pan out, but if they were anything more like EA or Activision, you would have signed your sentence to get minimal effort releases at maximum price for sure.

 

[Yamat08]

5. Hakkun - Too obscure pick and people in the West (Europe, America and possibly Australia) would be confused about Hakkun (Not counting his unnecessary Spirit Appearance)

How is Hakkun, or really ANY Spirit appearance "unnecessary"? Wasn't the whole point of Spirits (as well as Trophies and Stickers, for that matter) to show off the more obscure corners of Nintendo's history while not having anywhere near as much commitment required for a playable character?

I gotta like how we are literally saying that it is unnecessary for a character to get an "image". An "image". In a video game.

How spoiled are we that we are saying that it is unnecessary for a character to get a JPEG/PNG in a video game?

Exactly.

The main reason for this is that the Sheik in Smash 4 and on isn't Zelda, but the original Sheik.

The design was properly updated to represent this, and since it's no longer the same character just disguising themselves, they have been separated.

Contrast this with Pokemon Trainer owning all the Pokemon and thus having to switch between them, which accurately represents the games alongside having other Pokemon who are solo, and Pyra/Mythra who are literally the same person but different manifestations of that person.

I really don't buy this argument. First of all, what the hell even is "the original Sheik"? Sheik has always been Zelda. If you wanted to argue that this Sheik design stands too far apart from Link Between Worlds Zelda, then fair enough, but even then, I don't think it matters that much when Zelda/Sheik clearly uses magic to transform. Not to mention, the first game to split them was re-using the Twilight Princess designs from Brawl (in which they clearly could transform between one another). But let's not kid ourselves, the ONLY reason Zelda and Sheik are separate characters now is because of the 3DS's limitations. As for why they didn't re-join them in Ultimate, I'm guessing it's because they didn't want to give up their new Down-Bs. Charizard's Rock Smash apparently wasn't so lucky, but then again, unlike Charizard, Zelda and Sheik aren't associated with a whole other character (the Trainer itself is technically a fighter.... I mean, could we really say Everyone Is Here if the Trainer was gone and Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard all just went solo?)

I am curious what's going to happen if the Smash fanbase doesn't grow out of its "Every reveal needs to be Master Chief-tier and those that aren't are a disappointment" when the inevitable WTF character is revealed for the next game.

Characters like , , and never had the warmest of welcomes when they were first revealed, but I shutter to think of what will happen when Muddy Mole or Alice from Balloon Kid are revealed in a couple of years. It'll make Dark Pit and Byleth look like Mega Man and Sora.

I said it earlier in the thread, but I'll say it again: if Everyone Is Here doesn't return, I gotta pity whatever character opens up the next Smash while bearing that kind of weight. I mean, as someone who wasn't particularly crazy about Sora, I can nevertheless acknowledge that he was indeed one of THE most hyped requests they could possibly go with..... so where do they even go from there? While I'd say that the options for characters who could open up the next Smash as well as Snake, Mega Man, and Inklings did are dwindling, I don't think they'd necessarily have to top Sora or be "Master Chief-tier" just so long as Everyone Is Here could remain. If Everyone Is Here really is gone, however, then the audience is going to know that it was sacrificed for the sake of having this character, so then the question becomes: is it worth it?

I previously pointed to Crash as an example. Now are there people who genuinely are crazy about him and want him in Smash? Sure, I wouldn't deny that. But I'm also left with the impression that many others are just looking for the next big thing to hype as a potential Smash inclusion. Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Cloud, Banjo&Kazooie, and others are already in, so naturally it should be Crash's turn as the next big gaming icon. But what happens if any one of those previous "major, must-have inclusions" ends up being excluded? Is Crash still next in line to those people, or is he just a washed up has-been that isn't gonna amount to crap so long as Banjo&Kazooie's not in the game?

Mmmmm I don’t think they’d cut any third party spirits. Yes I see Lotus’s spirit staying, random as hell as she was

but also remember the whole dummied out JFG/BC/DT in the code? For the former two, those were before Rare was officially on board with Banjo & Kazooie. Maybe with DX we may officially see Jet Force Gemini and Blast Corps spirits like what was most likely planned once but scrapped? Can’t answer for Devil’s Third tho

For what it's worth, Ultimate doesn't have a single reference to Bit.Trip Saga despite Smash4 having a trophy, so I wouldn't count on any of Ultimate's stand-alone 3rd party Spirits being safe. One major exception to this, of course, would be if they really did go with an extended port of Ultimate, being essentially the same game with added extras to the point that you could even convert your old Ultimate save file without losing anything (likewise if they just do an all-DLC-included physical release).

 

[Shroob]

I have to disagree because you are outright denying core fans who have already put in their votes.

View attachment 337787

So I find it fascinating that people think Krystal has just disappeared off the map. What is the new 'ist' term people are throwing out now...revisionist? Is that it?

Basically, everyone keeps talking about how popular Jonesy or 2B or Hollow Knight are...and yet they forget these characters didn't exist during the Smash Ballot. Did you know that Undertale was only out for about a month of the duration of the Smash Ballot? What about the fact that hype for Kratos only rose up with his new PS4 game, not that he wasn't popular already, but that most of his push was post-ballot?

You guys need to keep these things in mind, that if they are still using picks from the Smash Ballot, which they are because they would have given us the results if they weren't, that some of these things you are pushing did not have the support or even existed at all during that time. Charts like this would imply she did much better than you would think, and the fact that she went from nothing to an AT is a big enough deal in her own right.

Also keep in mind Ultimate was rushed: work started sometime in early 2016 and the game was golden in October of 2018. This isn't as bad as Melee which was only 13 months, but it is a very similar situation given it was roughly 30 months (give or take) and had to be made for a brand-new console that didn't debut until 2017 as well as the pressure to bring back as much as they could while adding new AND being the best Smash to honor the late Iwata. Remember than most AAA games that come out very polished tend to have 3-5 year dev cycle, whereas Ultimate only had around 2 and a half. There is a good chance many more characters were planned or at least considered during that time, especially with ARMS and XBC2, but there just wasn't enough time and releases didn't match up.

In other words, just because some characters got really popular or semi-popular during Ultimate's dev time doesn't mean they are somehow getting in to the next Smash. This is also true for characters that got a lot of push during Ultimate's actual life cycle, although I would suggest that someone like Dante has an incredibly good shot.

Also, we are doing this weird thing again where we think only popular characters have a chance, and by popular, I mean mainstream and crossing into Non-Smash community. Did the base additions to Ultimate teach you nothing? Since when was Ridley popular in the main gaming sphere? Did K. Rool get a game that was insanely popular yet magically never talked about? Wasn't old school Castlevania dead and Konami cared about pachinko more than actual games? That doesn't even go into Banjo or Terry who definitely do not fit this bill due to where they were at in terms of popularity when they were added.

I think what happened is that Joker, Steve and Sora got in and now people have this weird take where only really popular characters have a chance. Yeah, Sakurai DEFINITELY seems to be the kind of guy to throw away years of evidence for claims of characters people want just to go from what is mainstream. If we are honest with ourselves, I think we know why we got the DLC we did: Nintendo was a big player and Sakurai lost some of the control he had over these choices, while also fulfilling promises to himself and others that he didn't fulfill in Smash 4. I doubt we have to worry about that too much going into a Furakawa-lead Nintendo.



There is a difference between going against your own wants for some weird joke, and accurately describing people who wanted to buy multiple copies of an unpolished game made by a company that lied to them multiple times to support them and spite people who want that company to do better.

It's not my fault that the majority of the online support for Sword and Shield tried to make excuses for a AAA Fortune 500 company who factually lied to them.

You can like things that are of low quality, but what happened for SwiSh is on another level. I don't like telling companies with my wallet to continue to give me poor or lesser quality product then they used to. If you like paying more for less, by all means, but realize you are actively against your best interests and ruining the chances of that betterment for others.

Like I said, it's a good thing GameFreak seems to have listened to some degree by having BDSP done out of house while they focus on another project, and attempting to expand the horizons of mainline games and give people what they have asked for 20 years in the making. We have yet to see how this will pan out, but if they were anything more like EA or Activision, you would have signed your sentence to get minimal effort releases at maximum price for sure.

I take massive issues with the bolded point here because no, they would never, and will never tell us the full results of the ballot, and Sakurai flat out told us why, it's to prevent us, the fans, going berserk and harassing devs over their characters, or who didn't get in.



He straight up told us why they'd never show off the results of the ballot, and yeah, I 100% buy that reasoning.



Could it be because they're still using it for the future? Absolutely, and they probably will no doubt.


But the collective ****fit this community would have seeing popular names on the ballot rank highly and not be playable in Ultimate? This community would flat out collapse in on itself in rage, and that's just a fact, it goes mental at the drop of a hat. Imagine if Sora hadn't gotten in and they revealed he was 1#. Yeah, I don't wanna think about the fires that would have come from that.

 

[Mamboo07]

I thought wanting Goku in Smash was just a meme. Y'all were for real?

Yes, he was just a meme.

 

[ForsakenM]

I suppose I should do a bit of clarification here: I'm not saying that only Smash Ballot results matter. It's clear that Sakurai doesn't limit himself to those, because there are multiple inclusions that clearly had nothing to do with the Ballot. It would be foolish to limit yourself to only those results, since characters can get popular afterwards and new characters can surface that people love.

What I'm saying is that the Smash Ballot CLEARLY matters a lot, possibly meaning more than we give it credit for.

Think about the inclusions we know for a fact are in because of the Smash Ballot: Sora, Banjo and Castlevania have all been acknowledged as well as Cloud getting the most FF votes. We can logically assume that all the veterans returned because of the Ballot, and I think we all know K. Rool did very well without anyone at Nintendo telling us he did. Ridley may or may not have done well but didn't really need to, though it's safe to assume he did.

I'm of the opinion that Sakurai had more control over who was included during the base game's development, but because they had a lack of time, only so many characters could be realized. Then when DLC came into play, Nintendo took more of a role in deciding who they would pursue than they have in the past, which meant Sakurai had to relinquish some control but that it wasn't as bad as we make it out to be, but a big enough deal to be sure.

When you look up polls from before the Smash Ballot and even around it's time, names that people think are dead like Krystal, BWD and Dixie all did super well in comparison. Using that SSB4Dojo Poll Data, it's clear that is only has a fraction of the amount of votes because Sora is so low, but it also only factors in mock polls that happened around the time off multiple sites and not considering how the Smash Ballot was an official Nintendo Smash-Related poll that was publicly announced in a Smash Direct to multiple countries and lasted around seven months. This isn't a mock poll on a Smash website where people are admittedly biased for long-term requests, nor a botted poll for Valve fans, or even a Japan-only poll: this was MASSIVE, and obviously so was the demand for Sora...but Banjo was #2 guys, keep that in mind that the bear and bird placed just after Sora and higher than K. Rool and his propaganda machine apparently.

However, what this data is important for when you compare it to all these other polls we've had over time, is that we get consistent little pictures of what happened: some of these polls and data collection show us WHY Sakurai worked to get all the veterans back (hint: it's because we asked for it), some of them show Sora's massive appeal and support and how Banjo was almost always way up there, but they also show us that characters like Krystal, BWD, Dixie, Geno and Isaac likely did very well...and when you consider that Banjo outdid stuff like Cloud and K. Rool, it's not all that surprising to think these characters did a lot better than people are being pushed to believe.

I will say that outside of the Ballot, I think characters like Dante, Travis Touchdown and Skull Kid who got all this push at various times during Ultimate's cycle have a good chance because it's Sakurai's job to be aware of things like this and it's definitely someone's job to collect this information and provide it to people. Other characters who likely did well on the Ballot fall here too, like Isaac who woke up Nintendo and Geno who was roaring up until Dec 2020, but even those without big Ballot numbers stand a good chance as long as they got a lot of push between March 2018 and Oct 2021.

I take massive issues with the bolded point here because no, they would never, and will never tell us the full results of the ballot, and Sakurai flat out told us why, it's to prevent us, the fans, going berserk and harassing devs over their characters, or who didn't get in.



He straight up told us why they'd never show off the results of the ballot, and yeah, I 100% buy that reasoning.



Could it be because they're still using it for the future? Absolutely, and they probably will no doubt.


But the collective ****fit this community would have seeing popular names on the ballot rank highly and not be playable in Ultimate? This community would flat out collapse in on itself in rage, and that's just a fact, it goes mental at the drop of a hat. Imagine if Sora hadn't gotten in and they revealed he was 1#. Yeah, I don't wanna think about the fires that would have come from that.

I will say that if they included all the characters then they wouldn't have a problem, and I really think they will continue to use that list for at least the next game, but you are right that they could theoretically be done with that list but still not release it because of the community.

Which is kinda sad, because even with that information I wouldn't harass any company. Geno could be in the Top 5 and I wouldn't harass Square over it. I'd probably just re-open my Twitter long enough to post the evidence in the face of all the hate I got supporting the character there and not even tag anyone at all, just to have it there. If Square saw it, that would be because they were looking for it.

But I'm very much the minority in the Smash community, in terms of attitude about character inclusions.

 

[Shroob]

I will say that if they included all the characters then they wouldn't have a problem, and I really think they will continue to use that list for at least the next game, but you are right that they could theoretically be done with that list but still not release it because of the community.

Which is kinda sad, because even with that information I wouldn't harass any company. Geno could be in the Top 5 and I wouldn't harass Square over it. I'd probably just re-open my Twitter long enough to post the evidence in the face of all the hate I got supporting the character there and not even tag anyone at all, just to have it there. If Square saw it, that would be because they were looking for it.

But I'm very much the minority in the Smash community, in terms of attitude about character inclusions.

Yes they would.


Again, loop back to my point on Sora.


Imagine a scenario where he hadn't won, but they decided to show off the results anyway in full and proudly show that Sora was 1# but "Welp, he's not in Ultimate, sorry."


Sora, the guy who literally top trended Twitter every time a Direct was drawing close for a solid 2 years? Yeah, yeah we absolutely would have had a problem, regardless of who else was on there.


And my point isn't if the list is done or not, I don't think it is, my point is we flat out know why they'll never show it to us from word of god himself. We as a community just straight up aren't mature enough. We will harass people because our favorite skrunkus mcbunkus didn't make it in, or one we didn't like got in. That's just what the vocal part of this fanbase is like, and due to Social Media being what it is, it's worse than ever.

 

[ForsakenM]

Yes they would.


Again, loop back to my point on Sora.


Imagine a scenario where he hadn't won, but they decided to show off the results anyway in full and proudly show that Sora was 1# but "Welp, he's not in Ultimate, sorry."


Sora, the guy who literally top trended Twitter every time a Direct was drawing close for a solid 2 years? Yeah, yeah we absolutely would have had a problem, regardless of who else was on there.


And my point isn't if the list is done or not, I don't think it is, my point is we flat out know why they'll never show it to us from word of god himself. We as a community just straight up aren't mature enough. We will harass people because our favorite skrunkus mcbunkus didn't make it in, or one we didn't like got in. That's just what the vocal part of this fanbase is like, and due to Social Media being what it is, it's worse than ever.

I meant including all the characters in the roster for, say the Top 25 requested, then showing the results later just so people know where they placed.

Sorry for not clarifying.

It really doesn't matter though, because outside of Sakurai saying something, we will never know.

 

[Sucumbio]

There's a quote or video or something like that where he said the fan base is too cringe to release the actual ballot data not to mention the whole bayo won! thing wasn't exactly good PR for transparency.

 

[Megadoomer]

Sakurai said in the Sora presentation that Sora was the most-requested fighter, but they won't be releasing the full results of the Smash Ballot because it would lead to people harassing game companies to include a character if that character scored highly on the Smash Ballot. In Bayonetta's presentation, he said that Bayonetta was the highest-ranked character that they could negotiate for.

These two statements don't contradict each other; they couldn't get characters like Sora, Snake, or Banjo-Kazooie in Smash at the time of Smash 4, and other characters either couldn't work on the 3DS (Ice Climbers) or were already stage hazards (Ridley), so Bayonetta was the highest-ranking character that they could actually include.

 

[Gengar84]

I’d still be interested in seeing the ballot results just for placing of who actually made it in. They can just blank out the names of anyone who didn’t make the cut.

Something along these lines:

1) Sora
2) Banjo-Kazooie
3) xxxxxx
4) King K. Rool
5) xxxxxx

 

[Theguy123]

so what does everyone want to see in the next smash game if it happens. I should also ask who does everyone think the next mario rep will be since Mario is probably guaranteed to get a new character in base roster.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I have to disagree because you are outright denying core fans who have already put in their votes.

View attachment 337787

So I find it fascinating that people think Krystal has just disappeared off the map. What is the new 'ist' term people are throwing out now...revisionist? Is that it?

Basically, everyone keeps talking about how popular Jonesy or 2B or Hollow Knight are...and yet they forget these characters didn't exist during the Smash Ballot. Did you know that Undertale was only out for about a month of the duration of the Smash Ballot? What about the fact that hype for Kratos only rose up with his new PS4 game, not that he wasn't popular already, but that most of his push was post-ballot?

You guys need to keep these things in mind, that if they are still using picks from the Smash Ballot, which they are because they would have given us the results if they weren't, that some of these things you are pushing did not have the support or even existed at all during that time. Charts like this would imply she did much better than you would think, and the fact that she went from nothing to an AT is a big enough deal in her own right.

Also keep in mind Ultimate was rushed: work started sometime in early 2016 and the game was golden in October of 2018. This isn't as bad as Melee which was only 13 months, but it is a very similar situation given it was roughly 30 months (give or take) and had to be made for a brand-new console that didn't debut until 2017 as well as the pressure to bring back as much as they could while adding new AND being the best Smash to honor the late Iwata. Remember than most AAA games that come out very polished tend to have 3-5 year dev cycle, whereas Ultimate only had around 2 and a half. There is a good chance many more characters were planned or at least considered during that time, especially with ARMS and XBC2, but there just wasn't enough time and releases didn't match up.

In other words, just because some characters got really popular or semi-popular during Ultimate's dev time doesn't mean they are somehow getting in to the next Smash. This is also true for characters that got a lot of push during Ultimate's actual life cycle, although I would suggest that someone like Dante has an incredibly good shot.

Also, we are doing this weird thing again where we think only popular characters have a chance, and by popular, I mean mainstream and crossing into Non-Smash community. Did the base additions to Ultimate teach you nothing? Since when was Ridley popular in the main gaming sphere? Did K. Rool get a game that was insanely popular yet magically never talked about? Wasn't old school Castlevania dead and Konami cared about pachinko more than actual games? That doesn't even go into Banjo or Terry who definitely do not fit this bill due to where they were at in terms of popularity when they were added.

I think what happened is that Joker, Steve and Sora got in and now people have this weird take where only really popular characters have a chance. Yeah, Sakurai DEFINITELY seems to be the kind of guy to throw away years of evidence for claims of characters people want just to go from what is mainstream. If we are honest with ourselves, I think we know why we got the DLC we did: Nintendo was a big player and Sakurai lost some of the control he had over these choices, while also fulfilling promises to himself and others that he didn't fulfill in Smash 4. I doubt we have to worry about that too much going into a Furakawa-lead Nintendo.

Krystal honestly likely has taken a hit because even while she was a popular pick since Brawl, even in Brawl she was a divisive pick.

Now I do not want to make anyone think I am going to say Krystal was never a popular request. Even during the Brawl era she was a super popular pick, and her fanbase never really went away. To this day she still has an active, engaged fanbase. Sure, its not the Isaac fanbase for instance, but it was always there. But Krystal was always a divisive character. As popular as she was, her fanbase was notably...intense. Check out Brawl speculation and the fallout of Krystal not being in if you want to see some of the hottest debates out there. Poor Wolf, he got caught in the crossfire.

Now, Krystal has had a dedicated fanbase since Brawl, but she also has been very divisive. Smash 4 had Krystal as a super divisive character post Brawl, if you want any evidence for that check out that game's RTC. Krystal often cracked below a 50% for want. While a lot of people wanted Krystal, a lot actively did not. Despite this, the ballot did help her out a little...until she got ATd in Ultimate and her slowly resurgence of support got strangled in the cradle.

You are making a huge false equivalency by comparing K Rool and Ridley to Krystal. Those two were by far the largest first party requests going into Ultimate alongside the obvious Inklings. Those two kept their fanbases large and in charge since Brawl. Krystal did not and only became more divisive when she needed to expand her fanbase the most. If you want to compare characters to those two, Waluigi, Isaac, and Dee are the closest. They have the largest, broadest spectrum of fans and are the biggest first party fan favorites out there. If you want to compare Krystal to anything, compare her to Geno: a relic of Brawl speculation that while still having their fans, was not the most mainstream addition and missed the cut. The only reasons the Geno fanbase did not die out like Krystals are that the lack of a Geno costume with Hero and Banjos reveal gave them false hope and the Geno fanbase had a false prophet telling them everything would be ok in that hopeful environment.

I also take issue of you using the ballot as an end all be all for speculation. While the ballot might still play a roll in the future, it is equally possible that they might not rely on the ballot solely going forward. The ballot was finished up almost 6 years ago when speculation was a different beast. Some popular picks got in, like Bayo, Sora, Snake and the other cut vets, K Rool, Banjo, Ridley, Belmonts, Final Fantasy, Chrom, and Dark Samus. We have evidence based on Sakurai's comments that these all were included due to fan demand. At the same time, ballot popularity is not something that makes a character likely in and of itself. If it was, Rayman, Krystal, and Bandana Dee likely would have gotten in. We got plenty of picks that Sakurai did not cite for the Ballot as well. With how much fan demand has shifted, it would seem weird gatekeeping picks like Crash or Hayabusa out just because they did not have a ballot push.

If you want evidence that Smash speculation has moved on from just being popular picks within the smash community and onto gaming as a whole, look at the picks we got as DLC. The biggest JRPG of the past decade, the biggest JRPG series not in Smash, two strong institutions in the fighting game community that both have stronger connections to Nintendo's competition than Nintendo's systems, the biggest video game of all time, and the biggest video game villain not in Smash who was from one of the PS1's most iconic games. Sure, we got a few first party picks and two huge fan favorites, but at the end of the day the picks chosen were all relevant series. SNK was on an upswing since 2015 or so in relevancy again, Tekken and FF are always relevant, Dragon Quest is massive, Persona 5 was as I said the biggest JRPG of the past decade, and Minecraft I do not even need to explain. If you want to go even deeper, Smash's base game also went with either relevant picks in Inkling, Isabelle, and Incineroar, or popular picks like the Belmonts, K Rool, and Ridley. Relevancy and Popularity have always been king. I could go back as far as Brawl and show you that popular and relevant picks are what end up getting in the game overwhelmingly.

The fact that speculation has opened up means that being popular with the gaming community goes a long way. Look at some of the third party picks that have seen a groundswell of support in the past few years. Dante, Crash, Master Chief, and Hayabusa all are super popular picks that have taken up a lot of oxygen within Smash speculation and the Nintendo connections for 3 of them are paltry compared to their connections to gaming as a whole. Sure, popular first party requests and third parties with a stronger connection to Nintendo exist. Picks like Shantae, Lloyd Irving, and Arle are proof that there are less mainstream picks that are popular on Nintendo systems still are popular enough. But when picks like Sol Badguy or Dovakhin become fan favorites, you can tell there is a reason smash speculation is trending towards third parties: the gates are out there, and within reason you can request anyone. When within reason any gaming character has a shot for Smash, it makes sense people are requesting big characters like Dante and Crash.

so what does everyone want to see in the next smash game if it happens. I should also ask who does everyone think the next mario rep will be since Mario is probably guaranteed to get a new character in base roster.

In terms of want, I would love to see Crash Bandicoot, Adol Cristian, Neku, Eggman, Isaac, and Officer Howard the most.

If you want to know who I think the next Mario reps might be, I would say keep an eye on Waluigi and Pauline for obvious reasons. Waluigi I do not think I need to explain why, but from Pauline I can see Nintendo is starting to add her into the core Mario cast the same way that Rosalina was after Galaxy. I know some people might question moveset potential, but Sakurai can make anything out of a bucket of scraps. If Pauline keeps getting the treatment she has in Mario spinoffs, I could see her making the jump and crossing the line for the next smash.

Keep an eye out for Pauline to snag a Cappy based moveset for the next game. She is a super dark horse pick and with how Nintendo has handled her post Odyssey, I think she is super slept on. If she continues to get the spinoff treatment similar to Rosa, I think she makes a lot of sense to make it in.

 

[Will]

so what does everyone want to see in the next smash game if it happens. I should also ask who does everyone think the next mario rep will be since Mario is probably guaranteed to get a new character in base roster.

you know if i say his name it'll spark a ten page war on whether or not he would just be made into an assist again

 

[Sucumbio]

Imagine custom assist trophies...

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Imagine custom assist trophies...

Custom Assist Trophies be like:
Ronald McDonald as Custom Assist Trophy.

 

[Gengar84]

you know if i say his name it'll spark a ten page war on whether or not he would just be made into an assist again

That’s a pretty good place to be. I’d be lucky if my most wanted characters get more than one or two replies. The fact that your most wanted got in as an Assist Trophy at least shows that a lot of people care about them.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

so what does everyone want to see in the next smash game if it happens. I should also ask who does everyone think the next mario rep will be since Mario is probably guaranteed to get a new character in base roster.

Elma, Neku, Phoenix Wright, Octoling, Reimu, LoL, Officer Howard, at least a third namco rep (hoping KOS-MOS), maybe a Falcom character like Estelle or Adol, a few more echoes here and there (Violet? Black Shadow?) those are what I’d like to see. For a really off the wall pick, maybe the Traveler from Genshin Impact

next Mario rep is most likely gonna be Pauline, or maybe Captain Toad. SPECIFICALLY Captain Toad.

 

[Gengar84]

so what does everyone want to see in the next smash game if it happens. I should also ask who does everyone think the next mario rep will be since Mario is probably guaranteed to get a new character in base roster.

There are so many characters I’d love to see in Smash that it is hard to narrow down a list of my most wanted. For now, I’ll go with:

1) Zegram Ghart (Rogue Galaxy)
2) Magus (Chrono Trigger)
3) Rash/Pimple/Zitz (Battletoads)
4) Fulgore (Killer Instinct)
5) Shionne (Tales of Arise)
6) Xemnas (Kingdom Hearts)
7) Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors)
8) Illidan Stormrage (WarCraft)
9) Sarah Kerrigan (StarCraft)
10) Sub-Zero (Mortal Kombat)
11) Gengar (Pokémon)
12) Bill Rizer/Lance Bean (Contra)
13) Jena Anderson (Astral Chain)
14) Zero (Mega Man X)
15) Impa (Hyrule Warriors)
16) Goomba (Super Mario)
17) Etna (Disgaea)
18) Princess Garnet (Final Fantasy IX)
19) Raziel (Soul Reaver)
20) Dixie with Animal Buddies (DKC)

 

[Ivander]

so what does everyone want to see in the next smash game if it happens.

Hopefully some new characters from Nintendo IPs without a playable character, like Golden Sun and Astral Chain. Also Monster Hunter, a Phantasy Star rep, Chosen Undead, a Tales rep, Raven Beak, Elma, KOS-MOS, Neku, Reimu, Shovel Knight, Shantae, a Fire Emblem Heroes rep like Kiran, Fjorm or Reginn, etc.

Oh, and I guess Waluigi just so we can get into the phase of "He's finally in, so now we can forget he's in every little bit since no one is talking about him after his reveal."

 

[ForsakenM]

Krystal honestly likely has taken a hit because even while she was a popular pick since Brawl, even in Brawl she was a divisive pick.

Now I do not want to make anyone think I am going to say Krystal was never a popular request. Even during the Brawl era she was a super popular pick, and her fanbase never really went away. To this day she still has an active, engaged fanbase. Sure, its not the Isaac fanbase for instance, but it was always there. But Krystal was always a divisive character. As popular as she was, her fanbase was notably...intense. Check out Brawl speculation and the fallout of Krystal not being in if you want to see some of the hottest debates out there. Poor Wolf, he got caught in the crossfire.

Now, Krystal has had a dedicated fanbase since Brawl, but she also has been very divisive. Smash 4 had Krystal as a super divisive character post Brawl, if you want any evidence for that check out that game's RTC. Krystal often cracked below a 50% for want. While a lot of people wanted Krystal, a lot actively did not. Despite this, the ballot did help her out a little...until she got ATd in Ultimate and her slowly resurgence of support got strangled in the cradle.

You are making a huge false equivalency by comparing K Rool and Ridley to Krystal. Those two were by far the largest first party requests going into Ultimate alongside the obvious Inklings. Those two kept their fanbases large and in charge since Brawl. Krystal did not and only became more divisive when she needed to expand her fanbase the most. If you want to compare characters to those two, Waluigi, Isaac, and Dee are the closest. They have the largest, broadest spectrum of fans and are the biggest first party fan favorites out there. If you want to compare Krystal to anything, compare her to Geno: a relic of Brawl speculation that while still having their fans, was not the most mainstream addition and missed the cut. The only reasons the Geno fanbase did not die out like Krystals are that the lack of a Geno costume with Hero and Banjos reveal gave them false hope and the Geno fanbase had a false prophet telling them everything would be ok in that hopeful environment.

I also take issue of you using the ballot as an end all be all for speculation. While the ballot might still play a roll in the future, it is equally possible that they might not rely on the ballot solely going forward. The ballot was finished up almost 6 years ago when speculation was a different beast. Some popular picks got in, like Bayo, Sora, Snake and the other cut vets, K Rool, Banjo, Ridley, Belmonts, Final Fantasy, Chrom, and Dark Samus. We have evidence based on Sakurai's comments that these all were included due to fan demand. At the same time, ballot popularity is not something that makes a character likely in and of itself. If it was, Rayman, Krystal, and Bandana Dee likely would have gotten in. We got plenty of picks that Sakurai did not cite for the Ballot as well. With how much fan demand has shifted, it would seem weird gatekeeping picks like Crash or Hayabusa out just because they did not have a ballot push.

If you want evidence that Smash speculation has moved on from just being popular picks within the smash community and onto gaming as a whole, look at the picks we got as DLC. The biggest JRPG of the past decade, the biggest JRPG series not in Smash, two strong institutions in the fighting game community that both have stronger connections to Nintendo's competition than Nintendo's systems, the biggest video game of all time, and the biggest video game villain not in Smash who was from one of the PS1's most iconic games. Sure, we got a few first party picks and two huge fan favorites, but at the end of the day the picks chosen were all relevant series. SNK was on an upswing since 2015 or so in relevancy again, Tekken and FF are always relevant, Dragon Quest is massive, Persona 5 was as I said the biggest JRPG of the past decade, and Minecraft I do not even need to explain. If you want to go even deeper, Smash's base game also went with either relevant picks in Inkling, Isabelle, and Incineroar, or popular picks like the Belmonts, K Rool, and Ridley. Relevancy and Popularity have always been king. I could go back as far as Brawl and show you that popular and relevant picks are what end up getting in the game overwhelmingly.

The fact that speculation has opened up means that being popular with the gaming community goes a long way. Look at some of the third party picks that have seen a groundswell of support in the past few years. Dante, Crash, Master Chief, and Hayabusa all are super popular picks that have taken up a lot of oxygen within Smash speculation and the Nintendo connections for 3 of them are paltry compared to their connections to gaming as a whole. Sure, popular first party requests and third parties with a stronger connection to Nintendo exist. Picks like Shantae, Lloyd Irving, and Arle are proof that there are less mainstream picks that are popular on Nintendo systems still are popular enough. But when picks like Sol Badguy or Dovakhin become fan favorites, you can tell there is a reason smash speculation is trending towards third parties: the gates are out there, and within reason you can request anyone. When within reason any gaming character has a shot for Smash, it makes sense people are requesting big characters like Dante and Crash.


In terms of want, I would love to see Crash Bandicoot, Adol Cristian, Neku, Eggman, Isaac, and Officer Howard the most.

You missed my follow up to this that mentioned that the Smash Ballot isn't the only thing Sakurai will take things from, and that those characters that got a push between 2018 and 2021 have a lot going for them for having that support during a time where Sakurai would obviously be taking notes. It was totally unprovoked by any replies to me to make that comment: I just realized I talked only about the Ballot and I figured people would misinterpret that. Looks like I was right

You are also using popularity within the Smash community via long-term requests when I was referring to in prior posts mainstream popularity like Deathloop or Fortnite. Ridley definitely does not compare to CoD in any way. People were arguing about mainstream picks and my point was that the Ballot still matters and picks from it will likely happen for at least the next game.

I also wasn't saying Krystal was as requested as K. Rool or Ridley, but rather using poll evidence that shows that she was still a relatively popular pick during that time. When you remove all the troll votes and the veterans, and you place Sora and Banjo in the top two spots, you can start to paint a picture of what the Smash Ballot looked like, and I can tell you that Dante and Master Chief were not up there at that time. We also know Cloud wasn't quite up there based on how divided the FF votes were. We also know that Simon likely did well, that Ridley and K. Rool did very well as well as Shovel Knight, and that Chrom and Dark Samus did well enough to become echoes within Ultimate's rushed development cycle...however, doing well and well enough are two different things, and you don't have to be Top 10 to be turned into an echo fighter.

So, baring in mind that this was 2015 and not 2018 or later, who do you think would have been popular enough at the time to fill up those spots? Remember that Undertale showed up in the last month of the ballot, that 2B and Hollow Knight didn't exist yet, that DMC5 didn't exist yet and Dante had no push, that new God of War didn't exist and Kratos had no push, Crash didn't have his revival yet...so the answer becomes clear.

All the characters people have asked for since Brawl or earlier likely filled up the highest of the spots, after accounting for veterans and troll votes.

So, is the Smash Ballot just irrelevant now after we got between five and seven of the potential Top Newcomers from it? Do they just never pull from it again? Of course they do! We will still get a healthy amount of picks from the ballot, and they will be mixed in with more modern requests, which is ideally the best case scenario.

Also, things that people aren't factoring in for why some of these older requests did make it when others did are a rushed development cycle with no delays and more corporate control over DLC. When given an opportunity, a company will always try to make the most money, and shoving in characters from things that are new and hot is a way to do that. I think people are forgetting the jokes Sakurai has made at his own expensive about both Steve and Kazuya where he was pressured into including them by people within Nintendo. Perhaps he may have chosen other characters instead of them? I doubt this with Steve, but it's a grey area with Kazuya. Additionally, it's clear that ARMS and XBC2 would have gotten in the base game (and Byleth likely as well) if the game was able to be delayed a year or so like other titles, so we live in the reality that two DLC slots were taken up by characters to make up for the lack of 1st Party base game inclusions when if Sakurai had more time and control he likely would have chosen someone else.

Once again, I'll clarify that that Smash Ballot isn't the only thing that matter. However, it is a very major factor, and I think it would be foolish for anyone to think they are done picking choices from that and will stick with just requests within the last couple years.

Btw, who the hell is this Adon guy you keep speaking of? I ask because, I know it sure as hell ain't this guy!

 

[Gengar84]

You missed my follow up to this that mentioned that the Smash Ballot isn't the only thing Sakurai will take things from, and that those characters that got a push between 2018 and 2021 have a lot going for them for having that support during a time where Sakurai would obviously be taking notes. It was totally unprovoked by any replies from me to make that comment: I just realized I talked only about the Ballot and I figured people would misinterpret that. Looks like I was right

You are also using popularity within the Smash community via long-term requests when I was referring to in prior posts mainstream popularity like Deathloop or Fortnite. Ridley definitely does not compare to CoD in any way. People were arguing about mainstream picks and my point was that the Ballot still matters and picks from it will likely happen for at least the next game.

I also wasn't saying Krystal was as requested as K. Rool or Ridley, but rather using poll evidence that shows that she was still a relatively popular pick during that time. When you remove all the troll votes and the veterans, and you place Sora and Banjo in the top two spots, you can start to paint a picture of what the Smash Ballot looked like, and I can tell you that Dante and Master Chief were not up there at that time. We also know Cloud wasn't quite up there based on how divided the FF votes were. We also know that Simon likely did well, that Ridley and K. Rool did very well as well as Shovel Knight, and that Chrom and Dark Samus did well enough to become echoes within Ultimate's rushed development cycle...however, doing well and well enough are two different things, and you don't have to be Top 10 to be turned into an echo fighter.

So, baring in mind that this was 2015 and not 2018 or later, who do you think would have been popular enough at the time to fill up those spots? Remember that Undertale showed up in the last month of the ballot, that 2B and Hollow Knight didn't exist yet, that DMC5 didn't exist yet and Dante had no push, that new God of War didn't exist and Kratos had no push, Crash didn't have his revival yet...so the answer becomes clear.

All the characters people have asked for since Brawl or earlier likely filled up the highest of the spots, after accounting for veterans and troll votes.

So, is the Smash Ballot just irrelevant now after we got between five and seven of the potential Top Newcomers from it? Do they just never pull from it again? Of course they do! We will still get a healthy amount of picks from the ballot, and they will be mixed in with more modern requests, which is ideally the best case scenario.

Also, things that people aren't factoring in for why some of these older requests did make it when others did are a rushed development cycle with no delays and more corporate control over DLC. When given an opportunity, a company will always try to make the most money, and shoving in characters from things that are new and hot is a way to do that. I think people are forgetting the jokes Sakurai has made at his own expensive about both Steve and Kazuya where he was pressured into including them by people within Nintendo. Perhaps he may have chosen other characters instead of them? I doubt this with Steve, but it's a grey area with Kazuya. Additionally, it's clear that ARMS and XBC2 would have gotten in the base game (and Byleth likely as well) if the game was able to be delayed a year or so like other titles, so we live in the reality that two DLC slots were taken up by characters to make up for the lack of 1st Party base game inclusions when if Sakurai had more time and control he likely would have chosen someone else.

Once again, I'll clarify that that Smash Ballot isn't the only thing that matter. However, it is a very major factor, and I think it would be foolish for anyone to think they are done picking choices from that and will stick with just requests within the last couple years.

Btw, who the hell is this Adon guy you keep speaking of? I ask because, I know it sure as hell ain't this guy!

View attachment 337803

Adol Christian is the main protagonist from the action JRPG series, Ys.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

There are so many characters I’d love to see in Smash that it is hard to narrow down a list of my most wanted. For now, I’ll go with:

1) Zegram Ghart (Rogue Galaxy)
2) Magus (Chrono Trigger)
3) Rash/Pimple/Zitz (Battletoads)
4) Fulgore (Killer Instinct)
5) Shionne (Tales of Arise)
6) Xemnas (Kingdom Hearts)
7) Lu Bu (Dynasty Warriors)
8) Illidan Stormrage (WarCraft)
9) Sarah Kerrigan (StarCraft)
10) Sub-Zero (Mortal Kombat)
11) Gengar (Pokémon)
12) Bill Rizer/Lance Bean (Contra)
13) Jena Anderson (Astral Chain)
14) Zero (Mega Man X)
15) Impa (Hyrule Warriors)
16) Goomba (Super Mario)
17) Etna (Disgaea)
18) Princess Garnet (Final Fantasy IX)
19) Raziel (Soul Reaver)
20) Dixie with Animal Buddies (DKC)

Shionne instead of Alphen
Jena Anderson

based

 

[PeridotGX]

you know if i say his name it'll spark a ten page war on whether or not he would just be made into an assist again

I don't know what you're talking about. Everyone wants Arcade Bunny promoted.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

I don't know what you're talking about. Everyone wants Arcade Bunny promoted.

Not anyone.
Maybe everyone wants to promote FE Lyn to be Playable.
The Bunny doesn't have a cool moveset. He could just grab people as all his attacks.
(My opinion, no Offense)

Not even Sukapon has bad moveset potential, he could even appear as Retro Rep in Smash 6.

 

[ForsakenM]

Adol Christian is the main protagonist from the action JRPG series, Ys.

This guy?

I don't really touch many RPGs outside of FF, so what does this guy and his series do that is fresh enough to bring to the table for Smash?

Is there a dope mechanic unique to Ys? Also, how the hell do you pronounce Ys?

Not anyone.
Maybe everyone wants to promote FE Lyn to be Playable.
The Bunny doesn't have a cool moveset. He could just grab people as all his attacks.
(My opinion, no Offense)

Not even Sukapon has bad moveset potential, he could even appear as Retro Rep in Smash 6.