Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

I see at least one more batch of Promo Spirits for games like Wonder, Engage, S/V, etc. And then something specifically Smash related.

Like maybe a Smash 64 event, it's rather unique character art could lend itself well to something like that.

That would be cool, though I feel like they would do something weird like pair them up so there were fewer spirits. Like Mario & Luigi, Pikachu & Jigglypuff, DK & Yoshi, Captain Falcon & Ness, and... then some mix of Link, Samus, Kirby and Fox.

Or maybe what they'll do in a way I'm not entirely sure how, is a spirit event with five spirits that cover the five different Smash games. Like each one has that game's newcomer selection. It'd be very busy though...

 

[Will]

I see at least one more batch of Promo Spirits for games like Wonder, Engage, S/V, etc. And then something specifically Smash related.

Like maybe a Smash 64 event, it's rather unique character art could lend itself well to something like that.

Yoshi and Ness chill as ****

 

[Sucumbio]

Mario should get one Peach's new game looks fun like Luigi's Mansion did for Luigi so too could her new game (hopefully) and Wonder too and MvD with 2 new worlds!

I wonder if Paper Mario or SMRPG will have / could have something

 

[Guynamednelson]

That would be cool, though I feel like they would do something weird like pair them up so there were fewer spirits. Like Mario & Luigi, Pikachu & Jigglypuff, DK & Yoshi, Captain Falcon & Ness, and... then some mix of Link, Samus, Kirby and Fox

Since these spirit events aren't supposed to add more than 4 each...

• Mario+his expanded universe
• Pokemon
  
• Space travelers
  
• And...uh...the rest

 

[dream1ng]

Like maybe a Smash 64 event, it's rather unique character art could lend itself well to something like that.

Why do I feel (and I just feel, that is all) that some kind of surprise is going to be announced for something Smash Bros. related at the end of the fourth spirit event?

Or I guess you could make both of these true if they take this opportunity to release Smash 64 on the NSO.

 

[CannonStreak]

Mario should get one Peach's new game looks fun like Luigi's Mansion did for Luigi so too could her new game (hopefully) and Wonder too and MvD with 2 new worlds!

I wonder if Paper Mario or SMRPG will have / could have something

I'd love to get my hands on a Smithy Spirit if a Super Mario RPG Spirit does come at one of the events, if you were talking about Spirits.

 

[SPEN18]

Since these spirit events aren't supposed to add more than 4 each...

• Mario+his expanded universe
• Pokemon
  
• Space travelers
  
• And...uh...the rest

move Kirby to "space travelers" and let Link and Ness be the "RPG" group?

 

[dream1ng]

Since these spirit events aren't supposed to add more than 4 each...

• Mario+his expanded universe
• Pokemon
  
• Space travelers
  
• And...uh...the rest

MCU (no, not that one):
Pokemon:
Space:
SAYAAAH:

Jokes aside, Tetris had five

 

[Perkilator]

If this hypothetical Smash 64 Spirit Event only has three Spirits, I could see those Spirits being:

• Mario, Donkey Kong, Link and Samus
• Yoshi, Kirby, Fox and Pikachu
• Luigi, Ness, Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Part of me kind of wants to make a "Smashboards Elite Four" again. It was kind of nice having characters THAT popular to talk about.

Is that even possible now? I think we might.

Like Waluigi, BWD, Isaac, Geno, and Dixie all seem like steps above the rest of first party franchises in terms of desire.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I'll be ashamed if the final Spirit events was for non video game franchises that had history with Nintendo. Popeye and Snoopy came to my mind.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I'll be ashamed if the final Spirit events was for non video game franchises that had history with Nintendo. Popeye and Snoopy came to my mind.

I don't see that happening. Not even a chance, and it's even less likely since they're focusing on recent releases, so it'd make zero sense for them to go "ok now here's snoopy"

 

[NintenRob]

How likely do I think he is though? Well, certainly under Bandana Dee and probably under Magolor too. Maybe sitting somewhere around a distant third place? My biases aside I do think we should probably see BWD first, but with how imaginative and fun some of the less prominent Kirby characters are I'd just be more excited to give them a whirl in Smash.

Tough to say how likely he is because it's hard to tell how much to factor in Sakurai's bias, which to me, is the only real thing going for him. After Bandana Dee and Magolor, I'd personally place Dark Matter, which has been a prevalent force throughout the series. I think a case could even be made for Daroach and Gooey. Daroach got a second significant appearance in Mass Attack and has been grouped with Magolor and Taranza before (and was at forefront of Star Allies Wave 2 marketing), and Gooey has Kirby Fighters.


I would however, put Marx above Adeline

 

[Louie G.]

Part of me kind of wants to make a "Smashboards Elite Four" again. It was kind of nice having characters THAT popular to talk about.

Is that even possible now? I think we might.

Like Waluigi, BWD, Isaac, Geno, and Dixie all seem like steps above the rest of first party franchises in terms of desire.

I think it's harder to pin this donw now that the third party floodgates have opened up so vastly, I think the only first party demands who are still forces to be reckoned with would be Waluigi and to a lesser extent Bandana Dee (he's almost always ranking highly in polls). Isaac is hard to gauge at the moment, I wonder what people think about him right now? I feel like his popularity is definitely visible enough to get the nods he did in Ultimate, if we end up reaching into Nintendo's back catalogue I can see him being one of the highest priorities. So I think his fans should keep at it, his opportunity feels closer than ever.

And then the follow up question I guess is which of these characters will have specifically strong campaigns here on Smashboards? That will probably have to wait until dedicated support threads open back up, but I think it goes without saying that Geno support will come back in full force. BWD and Isaac have pretty loyal fans as well, and Waluigi goes without saying. I'm not sure if I'm totally comfortable locking in on those four, but I'm sure they will take up a good deal of first party (and Geno) discussion once things really get going. Not to shaft Dixie Kong, but I'm not sure her support will be as loud this time.

 

[SPEN18]

On that note, was pleasantly surprised to see this site report on Golden Sun being put on NSO.

Really felt like Isaac had a strong chance for Ult, and the amount of secondary content GS got may have meant he was relatively close.

Hopefully his support is maintained enough post-Ballot for him to potentially take a fan-pick slot next time.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'll be ashamed if the final Spirit events was for non video game franchises that had history with Nintendo. Popeye and Snoopy came to my mind.

I will say this as someone who had been lurking before finally coming back full-time.

Can you please stop trying to turn every conversation here into something about specifically non-gaming IPs being in Smash? It's borderline obsession.

 

[dream1ng]

I think it's harder to pin this donw now that the third party floodgates have opened up so vastly, I think the only first party demands who are still forces to be reckoned with would be Waluigi and to a lesser extend Bandana Dee (he's almost always ranking highly in polls). Isaac is hard to gauge at the moment, I wonder what people think about him right now? I feel like his popularity is definitely visible enough to get the nods he did in Ultimate, if we end up reaching into Nintendo's back catalogue I can see him being one of the highest priorities. So I think his fans should keep at it, his opportunity feels closer than ever.

I think he's definitely in the current top five for first-parties (and Geno). The problem is more that third-parties will likely make up a lot of the biggest requests, and we're not yet at a place where people know which promo characters make sense to expect, but once they do those characters will also get popular. Plus eventually pushing for vets will become a thing once it's realized they likely won't all make it back. Assuming we don't get a port.

So right now he'd be a part of things. But this lineup may be ephemeral once we begin to learn and see things. Like, we went into Ultimate expecting recent characters, then shifted to fanbase characters (at which point Isaac was very popular), then shifted to promo characters, then to third-party characters.

Whether Isaac actually gets in relies on two things:
1) a series revival. Probably shouldn't expect it until it happens. If/when it does, he has a very good shot, assuming it aligns with some round of selection. or
2) they want to add a first-party fanbase favorite, and Waluigi and BWD aren't chosen, presumably because they can get in through normal means.

But yes, his fans should and probably will keep up at it. He luckily seems to be part of a very rare number of characters who can maintain a good, though fluctuating, degree of demand despite the lack of any games.

And then the follow up question I guess is which of these characters will have specifically strong campaigns here on Smashboards? That will probably have to wait until dedicated support threads open back up, but I think it goes without saying that Geno support will come back in full force. BWD and Isaac have pretty loyal fans as well, and Waluigi goes without saying. I'm not sure if I'm totally comfortable locking in on those four, but I'm sure they will take up a good deal of first party (and Geno) discussion once things really get going. Not to shaft Dixie Kong, but I'm not sure her support will be as loud this time.

I agree those first four will. I also think Dixie's will become louder than BWD or Isaac if she's featured in the alleged new DK game. I think that's also going to factor into her being a part of the theme park (she was already on the teaser picture) and in the DK movie.

Even if she's not in the game (or if there is no game), I still think those second two will bring her back as a vocally popular choice. I do think Nintendo has plans to include her in the DK revival.

The question is if those developments will be known early enough to Sakurai to affect the roster itself. There's always DLC, but DK may not be the type of series to be a focus during that phase.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I have a feeling Funky will rise up and cause a split.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I have a feeling Funky will rise up and cause a split.

I'm sure he'll be one of the best in a wave of Spirits.

...I got nothing.

 

[dream1ng]

I have a feeling Funky will rise up and cause a split.

I think with whatever we get, Dixie is going to have the bigger role, which makes her the likelier addition, which makes her the more supported character, and people are more going to see Funky as a popular choice for an echo.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Is this one of those only it’s standing in the US matters type deals?

Isn't everything?

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Ice Climbers.

if you wanna be really pedantic about it duck hunt and ice climbers are both in two games (vs series) and ROB is compatible with two

edit: lmao I didn’t notice this was three pages ago my bad

 

[Louie G.]

I think he's definitely in the current top five for first-parties (and Geno). The problem is more that third-parties will likely make up a lot of the biggest requests, and we're not yet at a place where people know which promo characters make sense to expect, but once they do those characters will also get popular. Plus eventually pushing for vets will become a thing once it's realized they likely won't all make it back.

Right, I definitely agree. Although it's weirdly hard for me to pin down which third parties are taking the lead right now, particularly when it comes to base game vs DLC candidates. I feel like we're all prepared to start thinking ahead toward DLC for some of the bigger third party gets, while base roster will stay resigned to more humble or close-knit additions. Like Crash, Master Chief, Dante will probably sustain some popularity, but most of us agree they'd be better equipped as Fighter Pass characters right? Whether it's for their licensing scenarios or the inevitable flash DLC gimmick.

That won't stop the conversation from persisting through base game, but I just have to wonder which third parties will be simultaneously visibly popular and prime candidates for inclusion. There's someone like Hayabusa, but his genuine support has always been a bit more moderate in contrast to expectation. Same goes for someone like Monster Hunter, at least through the western fan community... idk if we really have a "Mega Man" scenario going into this one if that makes sense.

As far as vets go, unless it's made painfully obvious that a certain character won't come back from the beginning we won't really see that spring up until post-release. So I do expect some disappointing losses will join the ranks of prospected newcomers later on, but it's a nonfactor for now. This will probably also get skewed in favor of third parties, assuming big boys like Sephiroth and Sora may slip through the cracks they will certainly be topping the list. And this variable gets exacerbated further and further the more third parties we have to lose, which is hard to say at the moment.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I think with whatever we get, Dixie is going to have the bigger role, which makes her the likelier addition, which makes her the more supported character, and people are more going to see Funky as a popular choice for an echo.

Gonna say it right now, but I strongly believe that Funky as a DK Echo is a really, really bad idea, to the point where I'd rather not have him be in the game at all. I really hope that people don't rally behind Funky as an echo since he's so much more than a DK clone, even in his own series. I'm all for Funky, but only as a unique character.

I will now list off the similarities between DK and Funky to see if there is a basis for him being an echo.
1. They have a similar body shape.
2. Uh... they're... both gorillas?
...

DK and Funky are radically (no pun intended) different than one another in personality and abilities. Sure, they share some stuff like the roll and whatnot, but Funky is ripe with moveset potential based on his mannerisms alone, and that's before we get into the surfboard.

Just look at how he moves in DKC:TF compared to DK; he absolutely has his own style of doing things and is animated differently for a lot of things like jumps; even for shared moves like pulling objects from the ground, he puts his own twist on it. Look at his trick animations in Mario Kart, where he's a lot groovier than DK and tries to be a show-off. You could make a whole moveset solely based on him trying to be a bodacious surfer ape. I could see Funky's N-air being a lariat in contrast to DK's more constrained spin, Funky's D-iar being a surfboard flip that functions as a multi-hit, his jab ending with a flex, etc. I could even imagine him having an attack-taunt mechanic similar to Incineroar where he performs a stylish pose after landing an attack.

Donkey Kong is NOT Funky Kong. Heck, they don't even stand the same way. I've seen mods where Funky is made into a DK alt and it just looks uncanny and wrong, Funky isn't meant to be on all-fours in his idle. DK's animalistic moves are fitting for DK, but look out of place on Funky. I just cannot even see the concept working, even with his actual voice (Which the mod includes, and honestly, I don't even want to see Funky in a Smash Bros that'll force him to make gorilla noises; out of all the DK cast, he'd absolutely be the most negatively affected by it.)

Ah... sorry for the rant, I just don't like the idea of another Daisy situation happening.

 

[NintenRob]

Something to keep in mind with third party characters is DLC Vs base game. I get the impression that it is significantly easier to negotiate for third party characters if they're DLC Vs if they're in the base game.


I think Sakurai even said everyone is here almost didn't happen due to third party negotiations

 

[dream1ng]

Gonna say it right now, but I strongly believe that Funky a DK Echo is a really, really bad idea, to the point where I'd rather not have him be in the game at all. I really hope that people don't rally behind Funky as an echo since he's so much more than a DK clone, even in his own series. I'm all for Funky, but only as a unique character.

I will now list off the similarities between DK and Funky to see if there is a basis for him being an echo.
1. They have a similar body shape.
2. Uh... they're... both gorillas?
...

DK and Funky are radically (no pun intended) different than one another in personality and abilities. Sure, they share some stuff like the roll and whatnot, but Funky is ripe with moveset potential based on his mannerisms alone, and that's before we get into the surfboard.

Just look at how he moves in DKC:TF compared to DK; he absolutely has his own style of doing things and is animated differently for a lot of things like jumps; even for shared moves like pulling objects from the ground, he puts his own twist on it. Look at his trick animations in Mario Kart, where he's a lot groovier than DK and tries to be a show-off. You could make a whole moveset solely based on him trying to be a bodacious surfer ape. I could see Funky's N-air being a lariat in contrast to DK's more constrained spin, Funky's D-iar being a surfboard flip that functions as a multi-hit, his jab ending with a flex, etc. I could even imagine him having an attack-taunt mechanic similar to Incineroar where he performs a stylish pose after landing an attack.

Donkey Kong is NOT Funky Kong. Heck, they don't even stand the same way. I've seen mods where Funky is made into a DK alt and it just looks uncanny and wrong, Funky isn't meant to be on all-fours in his idle. DK's animalistic moves are fitting for DK, but look out of place on Funky. I just cannot even see the concept working, even with his actual voice (Which the mod includes, and honestly, I don't even want to see Funky in a Smash Bros that'll force him to make gorilla noises; out of all the DK cast, he'd absolutely be the most negatively affected by it.)
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Ah... sorry for the rant, I just don't like the idea of another Daisy situation happening.

A lot of clones are capable of being more than clones. A lot of the clones have different personalities to their original. That's not the point of clones.

The main basis of being a clone is
1) is the character similar enough physically,
2) could the character feasibly do these moves (of which there's a certain amount of liberty taken, look at Dark Samus) and
3) is the character prominent/popular enough to be made a clone (which itself is a lower bar)

Nowhere is "does the clone have similar behavior/personality/mannerisms as the original". Daisy doesn't. Falco doesn't. Luigi doesn't. Ganondorf doesn't. Dark Samus doesn't. Dark Pit doesn't. Even Ken doesn't, and his whole point is being a clone.

And not having 1:1 physicality isn't a dealbreaker either. Lucina isn't even the same gender as Marth, and Dark Samus, Chrom, and Ken all have differences in animations if not actual moves and properties.

Saying a character would or could be a clone isn't saying they couldn't be original. It isn't saying the character would be most faithfully represented as a clone. Obviously being original best represents any character, other than maybe Ken. That isn't the goal of adding clones. The goal of clones is almost always to increase the character count more easily/cheaply/quickly by reusing assets, and it's usually at a point the originals are already finalized.

Truthfully, Dixie could also be a clone. Probably one akin to Chrom where she has a move or two taken from elsewhere, but clearly that's allowed. Obviously that wouldn't represent her best either, but it's possible. Her prominence just makes it more likely she's more highly prioritized than that.

Isn't everything?

Tell that to Mike Jones. Dude wasn't even a spirit.

 

[Gorgonzales]

A lot of clones are capable of being more than clones. A lot of the clones have different personalities to their original. That's not the point of clones.

The main basis of being a clone is
1) is the character similar enough physically,
2) could the character feasibly do these moves (of which there's a certain amount of liberty taken, look at Dark Samus) and
3) is the character prominent/popular enough to be made a clone (which itself is a lower bar)

Nowhere is "does the clone have similar behavior/personality/mannerisms as the original". Daisy doesn't. Falco doesn't. Luigi doesn't. Ganondorf doesn't. Dark Samus doesn't. Dark Pit doesn't. Even Ken doesn't, and his whole point is being a clone.

And not having 1:1 physicality isn't a dealbreaker either. Lucina isn't even the same gender as Marth, and Dark Samus, Chrom, and Ken all have differences in animations if not actual moves and properties.

Saying a character would or could be a clone isn't saying they couldn't be original. It isn't saying the character would be most faithfully represented as a clone. Obviously being original best represents any character, other than maybe Ken. That isn't the goal of adding clones. The goal of clones is almost always to increase the character count more easily/cheaply/quickly by reusing assets, and it's usually at a point the originals are already finalized.

Truthfully, Dixie could also be a clone. Probably one akin to Chrom where she has a move or two taken from elsewhere, but clearly that's allowed. Obviously that wouldn't represent her best either, but it's possible. Her prominence just makes it more likely she's more highly prioritized than that.

I get what you're saying, but I fully believe in most of those cases that make a character a clone rather than original aren't worth it, especially going by Smash's tendency to not change them. Ganondorf is the prime example, but also Daisy and Dark Samus to a lesser extent. I'd much rather have people advocate for Funky as a unique fighter than a clone, that's I'm all i'm sayin'

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Gonna say it right now, but I strongly believe that Funky as a DK Echo is a really, really bad idea, to the point where I'd rather not have him be in the game at all. I really hope that people don't rally behind Funky as an echo since he's so much more than a DK clone, even in his own series. I'm all for Funky, but only as a unique character.

I will now list off the similarities between DK and Funky to see if there is a basis for him being an echo.
1. They have a similar body shape.
2. Uh... they're... both gorillas?
...

DK and Funky are radically (no pun intended) different than one another in personality and abilities. Sure, they share some stuff like the roll and whatnot, but Funky is ripe with moveset potential based on his mannerisms alone, and that's before we get into the surfboard.

Just look at how he moves in DKC:TF compared to DK; he absolutely has his own style of doing things and is animated differently for a lot of things like jumps; even for shared moves like pulling objects from the ground, he puts his own twist on it. Look at his trick animations in Mario Kart, where he's a lot groovier than DK and tries to be a show-off. You could make a whole moveset solely based on him trying to be a bodacious surfer ape. I could see Funky's N-air being a lariat in contrast to DK's more constrained spin, Funky's D-iar being a surfboard flip that functions as a multi-hit, his jab ending with a flex, etc. I could even imagine him having an attack-taunt mechanic similar to Incineroar where he performs a stylish pose after landing an attack.

Donkey Kong is NOT Funky Kong. Heck, they don't even stand the same way. I've seen mods where Funky is made into a DK alt and it just looks uncanny and wrong, Funky isn't meant to be on all-fours in his idle. DK's animalistic moves are fitting for DK, but look out of place on Funky. I just cannot even see the concept working, even with his actual voice (Which the mod includes, and honestly, I don't even want to see Funky in a Smash Bros that'll force him to make gorilla noises; out of all the DK cast, he'd absolutely be the most negatively affected by it.)
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Ah... sorry for the rant, I just don't like the idea of another Daisy situation happening.

Funky unironically has a lot to work just naturally with his surfboard alone. Though granted, that didn't stop certain Echoes from happening so the option still exists even if it would be a disservice to the character.

That being said, they made a hell of a big deal about his addition to Tropical Freeze's Switch port and the very concept of the "Funky Mode" is highly likely to return in future DKC titles just like how Nabbit keeps appearing with the "easy mode" gimmick introduced in Super Luigi U. So yeah, I genuinely believe Funky is a major contender for the next Smash.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Gonna say it right now, but I strongly believe that Funky as a DK Echo is a really, really bad idea, to the point where I'd rather not have him be in the game at all. I really hope that people don't rally behind Funky as an echo since he's so much more than a DK clone, even in his own series. I'm all for Funky, but only as a unique character.

I will now list off the similarities between DK and Funky to see if there is a basis for him being an echo.
1. They have a similar body shape.
2. Uh... they're... both gorillas?
...

DK and Funky are radically (no pun intended) different than one another in personality and abilities. Sure, they share some stuff like the roll and whatnot, but Funky is ripe with moveset potential based on his mannerisms alone, and that's before we get into the surfboard.

Just look at how he moves in DKC:TF compared to DK; he absolutely has his own style of doing things and is animated differently for a lot of things like jumps; even for shared moves like pulling objects from the ground, he puts his own twist on it. Look at his trick animations in Mario Kart, where he's a lot groovier than DK and tries to be a show-off. You could make a whole moveset solely based on him trying to be a bodacious surfer ape. I could see Funky's N-air being a lariat in contrast to DK's more constrained spin, Funky's D-iar being a surfboard flip that functions as a multi-hit, his jab ending with a flex, etc. I could even imagine him having an attack-taunt mechanic similar to Incineroar where he performs a stylish pose after landing an attack.

Donkey Kong is NOT Funky Kong. Heck, they don't even stand the same way. I've seen mods where Funky is made into a DK alt and it just looks uncanny and wrong, Funky isn't meant to be on all-fours in his idle. DK's animalistic moves are fitting for DK, but look out of place on Funky. I just cannot even see the concept working, even with his actual voice (Which the mod includes, and honestly, I don't even want to see Funky in a Smash Bros that'll force him to make gorilla noises; out of all the DK cast, he'd absolutely be the most negatively affected by it.)
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Ah... sorry for the rant, I just don't like the idea of another Daisy situation happening.

They can probably make him a semi-clone, easy.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Right, I definitely agree. Although it's weirdly hard for me to pin down which third parties are taking the lead right now, particularly when it comes to base game vs DLC candidates. I feel like we're all prepared to start thinking ahead toward DLC for some of the bigger third party gets, while base roster will stay resigned to more humble or close-knit additions. Like Crash, Master Chief, Dante will probably sustain some popularity, but most of us agree they'd be better equipped as Fighter Pass characters right? Whether it's for their licensing scenarios or the inevitable flash DLC gimmick.

That won't stop the conversation from persisting through base game, but I just have to wonder which third parties will be simultaneously visibly popular and prime candidates for inclusion. There's someone like Hayabusa, but his genuine support has always been a bit more moderate in contrast to expectation. Same goes for someone like Monster Hunter, at least through the western fan community... idk if we really have a "Mega Man" scenario going into this one if that makes sense.

As far as vets go, unless it's made painfully obvious that a certain character won't come back from the beginning we won't really see that spring up until post-release. So I do expect some disappointing losses will join the ranks of prospected newcomers later on, but it's a nonfactor for now. This will probably also get skewed in favor of third parties, assuming big boys like Sephiroth and Sora may slip through the cracks they will certainly be topping the list. And this variable gets exacerbated further and further the more third parties we have to lose, which is hard to say at the moment.

Yeah it's really hard to pin point what will leads third party discussion because there's just so many possibilities right now. That being said, I do think that most Western characters will really have more discussion going on in dlc season more than base game. In base game, I think Monster hunter and Resident evil will be heavily discussed. We know Capcom is probably fairly easy to work with, both are huge franchise (I would argue that Resident evil is probably the biggest Japanese video game franchise with no playable character in Smash) and both had some of their biggest release in the middle of Ultimate dlc season (MH rise and RE Village and 4 remake). Other characters that I think will spark a lot of discussion would be a second Sonic characters, Tales of characters (especially if Namco is indeed the developpers, tho Ultimate did get no Namco newcomers before dlc so it's not a guarantee).

I also feel that characters that were added as Mii costume later in Ultimate lifespan will be heavily discussed, because a few of Smash 4 dlc Mii costumes were made playable in Ultimate (Inkling, Isabelle, K.Rool and Chrom). I could especially see Dragonborn, Dante, Lloyd and Shantae being fairly discussed because this was the wave that Sakurai specifically said that those characters were very popular request.

 

[dream1ng]

Right, I definitely agree. Although it's weirdly hard for me to pin down which third parties are taking the lead right now, particularly when it comes to base game vs DLC candidates. I feel like we're all prepared to start thinking ahead toward DLC for some of the bigger third party gets, while base roster will stay resigned to more humble or close-knit additions. Like Crash, Master Chief, Dante will probably sustain some popularity, but most of us agree they'd be better equipped as Fighter Pass characters right? Whether it's for their licensing scenarios or the inevitable flash DLC gimmick.

That won't stop the conversation from persisting through base game, but I just have to wonder which third parties will be simultaneously visibly popular and prime candidates for inclusion. There's someone like Hayabusa, but his genuine support has always been a bit more moderate in contrast to expectation. Same goes for someone like Monster Hunter, at least through the western fan community... idk if we really have a "Mega Man" scenario going into this one if that makes sense.

Yeh asking which third-party character would be both popular and realistic for base is a more complicated question, but if you're just looking at popularity, like you said, it won't stop the demand of characters who do seem much likelier for DLC. If there was a very popular third-party, but they seemed likelier for DLC, would that be cause to exclude them from an Elite 4? Isn't that predicated mostly on demand?

I mean, I think Geno is likelier for DLC than base, because it's Square, and I think they have a strong preference for DLC, by which in most situations Nintendo would probably abide, because trying to strike a compromise gives Square more leverage.

Also worth keeping in mind is we are hinging our expectations of base third-party inclusions solely around one character. Well, with echoes, three. But there has only been one Smash game where base was selected with the intent of having DLC later, and in that base there was only one original third-party newcomer. We've taken our lead from Castlevania, but in reality that's not a lot to go off of.

It makes sense that smaller, more Nintendo-oriented third-parties would be in base, while others make up DLC, but whether that actually ends up being reliable is unknown. There's very little precedent.

As far as vets go, unless it's made painfully obvious that a certain character won't come back from the beginning we won't really see that spring up until post-release. So I do expect some disappointing losses will join the ranks of prospected newcomers later on, but it's a nonfactor for now. This will probably also get skewed in favor of third parties, assuming big boys like Sephiroth and Sora may slip through the cracks they will certainly be topping the list. And this variable gets exacerbated further and further the more third parties we have to lose, which is hard to say at the moment.

It's true that even if they are fairly upfront about there being cuts (which I think they will be, for the sake of avoiding a category-5 ****storm when base becomes fully revealed), people probably won't truly start pushing for vets until DLC, because hope will keep them thinking the character is likely returning until they're confronted with the reality that they didn't.

Though it actually does make sense to start pushing for vets as soon as we learn there will be cuts, because while it might seem dumb to push for a character who hasn't yet been deconfirmed, and very well may already be in the game, at that point base is already decided and having notable vocal support may be quite useful if and when Nintendo/Sakurai deliberate on who to choose to bring back through DLC. Look at 4.

That said, it is unlikely, because it requires preemptively acting on the idea that your character hasn't returned, which people won't want to do.

Something to keep in mind with third party characters is DLC Vs base game. I get the impression that it is significantly easier to negotiate for third party characters if they're DLC Vs if they're in the base game.


I think Sakurai even said everyone is here almost didn't happen due to third party negotiations

Overall yes. But every company is different, and even different IPs within a company can be easier/harder to negotiate. For as difficult as he said it was, Sakurai did get back every single past third-party in base. I'm sure some were quite tough coughcough but I suspect others were fairly doable.

 

[NintenRob]

In order for Funky to get in as a unique character. He has to contend with Dixie Kong. I don't see him getting in before Dixie and I don't see both happening. The only reason he got into Mario Kart before Dixie was by being a clone.

Overall yes. But every company is different, and even different IPs within a company can be easier/harder to negotiate. For as difficult as he said it was, Sakurai did get back every single past third-party in base. I'm sure some were quite tough coughcough but I suspect others were fairly doable.

This is true, but overall I would still expect more first party newcomers over third party ones for base game. So far it seems DLC is where they start going all out for third part characters.


And I actually think some of those Third Party characters only returned because of later DLC characters (See Mii Costumes and Sephiroth)

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The only reason he got into Mario Kart before Dixie was by being a clone.

Which.....Dixie literally could have also done but didn't.

This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is. Especially when her Mario Kart debut was in Tour... at the same exact time Funky came back. And then Funky returned for 8 Deluxe alongside Diddy with no Dixie.
With more people clamoring for his return in general than her addition.

 

[NintenRob]

Which.....Dixie literally could have also done but didn't.

This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.

Wasn't really meant to be a "gotcha" just emphasize the point.

Dixie may share a similar model to Diddy. But that Ponytail would need it's own bone structure and animation. And one of things shared with Mario Kart Wii clones are animations. DK and Funky have the same

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Wasn't really meant to be a "gotcha" just emphasize the point.

Dixie may share a similar model to Diddy. But that Ponytail would need it's own bone structure and animation. And one of things shared with Mario Kart Wii clones are animations. DK and Funky have the same

That's not nearly as much work as you make it out to be for something like Mario Kart.
It's not like the ponytail would be used for anything and would just be dangling and moving with the wind or when she moves.

 

[dream1ng]

I get what you're saying, but I fully believe in most of those cases that make a character a clone rather than original aren't worth it, especially going by Smash's tendency to not change them. Ganondorf is the prime example, but also Daisy and Dark Samus to a lesser extent. I'd much rather have people advocate for Funky as a unique fighter than a clone, that's I'm all i'm sayin'

I don't think many people advocate to get clones over originals. I think if they're doing that they either don't see that character getting in unless they're a clone, or it's not a matter of advocating, it's just remarking that if that character did get in, they could be, or probably would be, a clone.

And whether it's "worth it" to get them as clones, well ymmv. What I will say is the majority of clones and semi-clone characters probably wouldn't be on the roster if they weren't a clone. So for those, on the basis of that or nothing, I think most people tend towards the former.

The only reason he got into Mario Kart before Dixie was by being a clone.

I think them wanting parity between weight classes was also part of it. Which is probably why Waluigi got bumped up a weight class and Rosalina was made a heavy, despite that being kinda weird.

This is true, but overall I would still expect more first party newcomers over third party ones for base game. So far it seems DLC is where they start going all out for third part characters.

And I actually think some of those Third Party characters only returned because of later DLC characters (See Mii Costumes and Sephiroth)

I agree with this stuff, I just think that it's not so hard to put third-parties in base that they could load it up with newcomers from cooperative companies/IPs if they wanted to (budget aside). But I think there are a number of reasons they don't, past the budget and a third-party preference for DLC.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Nintendo: "Alright, we need to fill one more roster slot for Mario Kart Wii but we don't have time for a fully new model. Who should we clone?"

-monke-

Nintendo: "Okay, who should be his clone."

-the arms dealer from DK64-

Nintendo: -accidentally created the most popular character in all of Mario Kart-

 

[DarthEnderX]

to the point where I'd rather not have him be in the game at all.

Ah, cool. The line that always lets me know when it's okay to completely disregard someone's opinion.

 

[Louie G.]

I agree with this stuff, I just think that it's not so hard to put third-parties in base that they could load it up with newcomers from cooperative companies/IPs if they wanted to (budget aside). But I think there are a number of reasons they don't, past the budget and a third-party preference for DLC.

I’m fully anticipating them to take further advantage of the participation of their most cooperative, no-brainer partners like Sega and Capcom. I’m pretty certain that at this point, bringing Sonic or Mega Man / Ryu back is virtually as easy as negotiating with Pokemon Company and we see the extended cast of these series appear in far less prestigious games with way smaller budgets. Namco is in cahoots making the game and Konami dumped a slew of Castlevania content with no DLC fighter in return so I think these guys are pretty easy money. SNK, if they choose to bring Terry back, is throwing themselves at them. Although we can question how much of this was because of the DLC factor, but they’re pretty crossover-happy.

The third parties I’m more concerned about would be Square Enix or Microsoft, some cuts will happen regardless (even within the “safe” companies) but I do think the opportunity is there for more easy, crowdpleasing third party content from our current pool. I believe we’ll feasibly see Cloud (or Hero, maybe) and the Microsoft gang back on base roster but anyone new is easily getting pushed to DLC.

 

[smashkirby]

The thing with Kirby is that regardless of preference, nearly everyone acknowledges that Bandana Dee is the obvious choice. RTDL maps out a clear main quartet, which has stood strong ever since as Bandana Dee has only gotten more prominent. Even with more interesting options available, neglecting BWD would feel pretty arbitrary now. With Zelda, the next candidates are so far underneath the main three that the line becomes blurry. Kirby makes it easy for us, and the demand is majorly centralized behind one character.

As a Marx fan myself I’ve seen plenty of people rag on him for not being important though (which isn’t especially true - he’s the blueprint for many final bosses to follow), so those tensions still exist to some degree. I’m honestly just happy he has a role in Smash at all.

If I may say so, Shinya Kumazaki (the current director of the Kirby games; basically the 'Sakurai/Shimomura' of modern Kirby) has made a point of it that part of why B.W.D. was made playable in RtDL was because he (Kumazaki) has always been of the belief that the Waddle Dees should be/ARE much more than what they currently are (that being the 'Goomba' of the franchise), with him looking at them as the other major 'pillar' of what makes the Kirby series... well, the Kirby series (the other 'pillars' are apparently Kirby, King Dedede, and Meta Knight, BTW).

IMO... well, I'd like to think his efforts to elevate the Dees have paid off, with lots of people (especially in Japan) looking to the Waddle Dees (B.W.D. included) as the secondary mascot of the franchise (given all of the merch that has featured them since the release of Triple Deluxe). As someone who has B.W.D. in their 'Top 5 most wanted characters for Smash', I can totally get the idea behind Bandee being playable, not just by a gameplay standpoint (which IS important, of course), but by the legacy the Waddle Dees have developed over the years.

Heck, out of all of the 'pillars' that make up the franchise? The Waddle Dees are the ONLY other constant within said franchise other than Kirby himself. What better way to honor it than to have the "Waddle Dee among Waddle Dees" himself as a playable character, representing his adorable species