Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

At this point I think the only way we'll get a Zelda character is if we have a fan demand campaign. Sakurai seems resistant to adding new Zelda characters for whatever reason and fan demand may give him the kick he needs to realize the underlying desire.

The issue is, support is splintered. We need a major rallying under one or two banners. Skull Kid, Midna and Impa are the ones with the most promise I feel. We need to rally and make our voice known soon. After the game's announcement is too late.

I don't necessarily think it's the only way, but it might help.

I think the biggest problem with why Breath of the Wild for example didn't get a newcomer in Ultimate for example, one of the Champions, is because the game dropped long after the roster was being picked. So they were non-factors outside DLC, at which point BotW already "had" the new version of Link and technically Sheik as well as a stage and music tracks. Unlike Xenoblade 2 and ARMS which didn't have any fighters, stages or music.

Though at the same time, I can't speak for Skyward Sword not getting a fighter in Smash For.

EDIT: Slight correction; I forgot Xenoblade 2 DID have some music.

 

[Louie G.]

The issue is, support is splintered. We need a major rallying under one or two banners. Skull Kid, Midna and Impa are the ones with the most promise I feel. We need to rally and make our voice known soon. After the game's announcement is too late.

To be honest, I don't see this getting any better. There's a clear separation between those who favor the memorable one-shot characters of previous games, and others who are seeking out the next-most frequently prominent characters after the Triforce gang. I personally fall into the former camp, and the only ones I'm interested in with the latter camp are really out there picks like Beedle. It seems difficult to make the ones who have made up their mind budge on this.

That being said, I don't think hope for Zelda is lost. The series has grown into a stronger force than ever, the simple idea of expanding on Zelda's now ancient character lineup is one that I'm sure comes up every now and again. I guess the weird thing about Zelda compared to other series is how instead of getting new characters, its existing characters may be updated accordingly to account for its progress between games. But I dunno, I think it's apparent to anyone looking at the roster right now that it needs a bit of a jolt. As addressed before, if Sakurai felt it was valuable to add ZSS for the sake of building on Metroid then I can imagine him recognizing that Zelda hasn't budged in over 15 years.

Whether that results in any of the aforementioned characters, I can't really say. I don't know what incentive in a vacuum he would have for adding Skull Kid and Midna, aside from acknowledging that they are popular characters. Their AT roles kind of allude to this already, as well as Skull Kid's Mii outfit. But no matter who it ends up being, I do have some faith that Zelda will be under higher consideration next time. I understand how easy it is to be discouraged based on the current precedent, but Ultimate did put a lot of effort into updating the cast and bringing Young Link back. Link had one of the most notable reworks in the game, and newcomer opportunities were limited to begin with. The only game that I think is a strong indictment of Zelda's lack of growth is Smash 4.

 

[dream1ng]

When did I ever say my interpretation of the whole thing was correct?

The implication with this phrasing is that you should be assumed as incorrect unless explicitly stated otherwise, which I doubt is what you want.

 

[CannonStreak]

The implication with this phrasing is that you should be assumed as incorrect unless explicitly stated otherwise, which I doubt is what you want.

I think you are being assumptive here, dream1ng, as you are sometimes. Like I said, I did not care much, if at all, about more Japanese characters being in over Western characters, so you are wrong with what I want.

Look, if you wish to try and push someone's buttons, I would suggest to you to find someone else. I am not going to fall for this.

 

[fogbadge]

At this point I think the only way we'll get a Zelda character is if we have a fan demand campaign. Sakurai seems resistant to adding new Zelda characters for whatever reason and fan demand may give him the kick he needs to realize the underlying desire.

The issue is, support is splintered. We need a major rallying under one or two banners. Skull Kid, Midna and Impa are the ones with the most promise I feel. We need to rally and make our voice known soon. After the game's announcement is too late.

let me know who you pick and i'll shout it from the radio

 

[Sucumbio]

...the West and the East.

don't mind me just couldn't resist carry on

 

[CannonStreak]

don't mind me just couldn't resist carry on

I can imagine Western video game company people working just as hard as Rocky in that video just to get their characters into Smash Bros. LOL

 

[Perkilator]

Considering BOTW was in development hell for quite some time and was originally developed for the Wii U, would getting a newcomer have been feasible at the time of Ultimate’s project plan?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Considering BOTW was in development hell for quite some time and was originally developed for the Wii U, would getting a newcomer have been feasible at the time of Ultimate’s project plan?

Probably depends on what was readily available for Sakurai to see prior to the Smash 4 Final Presentation. Since I doubt he'd have held off on a decision like he does with Pokémon.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

let me know who you pick and i'll shout it from the radio

I get to pick? Just call me Diddy Kong.

I pick Impa.

 

[fogbadge]

I get to pick? Just call me Diddy Kong.

I pick Impa.

done

 

[Gengar84]

Speaking of western characters, does anyone think a main character from Prince of Persia could work?

Yeah, he’s an iconic enough character and his time bending abilities could be interesting as a Smash gimmick. The franchise was also popular enough to get a Hollywood movie. The question is which version would they go with? He’s had a number of pretty cool looking designs over the years.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I get to pick? Just call me Diddy Kong.

I pick Impa.

You could have picked Groose, the Groosenator of Grooseland.

 

[CannonStreak]

Yeah, he’s an iconic enough character and his time bending abilities could be interesting as a Smash gimmick. The franchise was also popular enough to get a Hollywood movie. The question is which version would they go with? He’s had a number of pretty cool looking designs over the years.

Yeah, I am wondering which version, too.

Only thing is, the time mechanic may not be too new, given that an Umbran Witch exists in Smash already. I can imagine that they could still do more with the Prince (whichever version they were to use) in terms of time bending than they did with Bayonetta, but yeah, the time bending, to me, would still not be too new.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah, I am wondering which version, too.

Only thing is, the time mechanic may not be too new, given that an Umbran Witch exists in Smash already. I can imagine that they could still do more with the Prince (whichever version they were to use) in terms of time bending than they did with Bayonetta, but yeah, the time bending, to me, would still not be too new.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the time mechanic being too new? The Sands of Time was a PS2 era game which is pretty old by now. Unless you meant something different by that.

 

[CannonStreak]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the time mechanic being too new? The Sands of Time was a PS2 era game which is pretty old by now. Unless you meant something different by that.

I was talking about Smash, and how Bayonetta already did the time thing, to an extent, Maybe The Prince can do more than what she does?

 

[Garteam]

From this page alone:

Official - Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

SO, um... any bets on the new Spirits? I'm definetly thinking at least one of those batches will be used for promotional reasons.

smashboards.com

You can see people speculating on it involving recent Nintendo games.

Thanks for linking this to me. Yeah, I kind of misread the conceptions of the community. It is odd for an anniversary event to focus on expanding content rather than revisiting popular content from previous entries. There's obviously no hard rule about this sort of thing, but does seem a bit off to me.

Don't do that to me.

Don't give me my personal best case scenario.

I'm spoiled enough as it is.


That said, are you implying the only thing to take from TotK is... Rauru?

I get the sentiment here, but I think it's overstating what this is. I'm sure the next game would have more to offer than one measly spirit, certainly none of these spirits are satisfactory representations of these respective characters or titles.

I can't tell you the exact motivation for adding these to Ultimate, outside of the Sora amiibo update being a good excuse to toss in some bonus content, but it's a bit disingenuous to suggest they just blew their load on TOTK content and now it wouldn't be a selling point for Smash 6. It still would be - all the music, stage, character options are still going to be just as enticing with or without a Rauru spirit in Ultimate. Nobody is gonna see say, Rauru get announced as a character or AT and be like ehh well we got TOTK content last game. I really don't think anyone is attributing this much weight to them.

Would be different if we suddenly got a really bulky update with new stages and music from each of these new games. That would be more reason to be skeptical of the intent, and question why they'd do this now and not next game. This just feels like biding time.

Oh, TotK definitely has a lot more content to offer beyond Rauru. TotK seems made for a stage and Link and Ganondorf will almost certainly have their designs updated to match TotK if a new Smash is in development. I think there's almost a very reasonable chance that TotK gets at least one item and an assist trophy.

How adding Rauru as a spirit to Ultimate is deleterious to a new Smash game because it pre-empts some of the fanfare of TotK's inclusion into Smash with a much less ceremonious role. Smash's selling point for new entries is always the expansion of the scale of the crossover. This is traditionally done through the inclusion of new franchises and the expansion of the way old franchises are represented. Even beyond the specifics of how an entry is portrayed, there's a certain degree of fun in just going "THAT GAME IS IN SMASH!?!". For example, people were really happy to see Undertale and Cuphead get any representation at all, regardless of the specifics of what that representation looked like. Now, late Switch-era games like TotK or Splatoon 3 aren't exactly analogous because people universally expect them to be added to Smash at some point in some form, but the general principle applies. Why spoil the fun of seeing Tears of the Kingdom being added to Smash generally by shoehorning it into Ultimate when you could just wait two or three years and give the game a more complete inclusion that better matches how the other mainline Zeldas in Smash?

It would be like adding trophies to represent Super Mario Odyssey, Breath of the Wild, Pokemon Sun and Moon, and Swapnote into Smash for Wii U in early 2017. Would it ruin the content added to represent these games in Ultimate? Of course not. However, it would dilute the general impact of these games being added to Smash, which harms Ultimate as a product.

I think it's moreso the idea of Sakurai going out of his way to use his limited development resources to make Ultimate a better game and the next Smash worse is bizarre, even if it is through pretty minor elements in the grand scheme of things. Everyone knows Ultimate is a tough act to follow. It's a stormcloud that hangs over the next Smash game and has characterized much of the post-Ultimate speculation period. Even Sakurai has acknowledged this to an extent, noting that there's no way that the next Smash will be able to match the size of Ultimate's roster. A new Smash game needs every advantage it can, especially in terms of how it will build off Ultimate as a crossover. Why go out of your way to make this task more difficult?

It's especially weird when you consider that labour had to be taken off this hypothetical new Smash game to work on Ultimate. Even if making these new spirits was done by one employee in an afternoon, that's still an afternoon of work that is not being done on the next Smash. Sakurai's entire design philosophy is based on maximizing efficiency during development to stuff games with as much content as possible. Moving employees to work on an already complete project when they could be working on a new project directly contradicts this approach.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

So, reading about how Smash Bros. seems to tend to ignore western gaming properties, I was wondering: Does Sakurai know what he is doing? I mean, he intends Smash Bros. to be a celebration of gaming itself. Would it be a celebration of gaming overall if it were just Japanese and maybe Eastern games overall Sakurai just focused on for Smash and not any Western games? Adding characters from Western games into Smash as spirits, Mii costumes and trophies (as how Rayman was in Smash 4 with the trophy thing) is not going to be enough.

Funny how flowery and feel-good the notion of "celebration of gaming" sounds until you think about for more than 1 minute and how quickly it falls apart. It never was Smash was meant to be anyways. Just a marketing tool for the Fighter Pass which even there failed

Hope this moniker gets completely dropped for Smash 6 and just focuses on what the series usually does without the delusion of grandeur on the side.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You could have picked Groose, the Groosenator of Grooseland.

That's a Grooseland rep, not a Zelda rep.

 

[CannonStreak]

Funny how flowery and feel-good the notion of "celebration of gaming" sounds until you think about for more than 1 minute and how quickly it falls apart. It never was Smash was meant to be anyways. Just a marketing tool for the Fighter Pass which even there failed

Hope this moniker gets completely dropped for Smash 6 and just focuses on what the series usually does without the delusion of grandeur on the side.

Really? That's...an interesting take.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Smash is a celebration of gaming.

People just need to stop insisting that a celebration has to include everything.

My birthday party didn't stop being a birthday party just because I didn't invite Uncle Slim. He smells like green beans.

 

[CannonStreak]

Smash is a celebration of gaming.

People just need to stop insisting that a celebration has to include everything.

My birthday party didn't stop being a birthday party just because I didn't invite Uncle Slim. He smells like green beans.

Well, I may have sounded bothered, but I was not. I was just making an observation. I don't actually need more Western characters in Smash.

For the game is still fun, anyway.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

That's a Grooseland rep, not a Zelda rep.

You know what? You right.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Whether that results in any of the aforementioned characters, I can't really say. I don't know what incentive in a vacuum he would have for adding Skull Kid and Midna, aside from acknowledging that they are popular characters. Their AT roles kind of allude to this already, as well as Skull Kid's Mii outfit. But no matter who it ends up being, I do have some faith that Zelda will be under higher consideration next time. I understand how easy it is to be discouraged based on the current precedent, but Ultimate did put a lot of effort into updating the cast and bringing Young Link back. Link had one of the most notable reworks in the game, and newcomer opportunities were limited to begin with. The only game that I think is a strong indictment of Zelda's lack of growth is Smash 4.

I think people tend to forget that Zelda as a franchise wasn't in the best spot when Smash 4 roster was decided too. Like yeah it's Zelda, it was still fairly popular, but the only new games we got between Brawl release and Smash 4 roster being chosen was Spirit tracks which had basically no potential characters and Skyward sword, who had Girahim but that's really it. And still, even with no newcomers both Spirit tracks and Skyward sword got stages, Girahim and Skull kid were assist, Ocarina of time got a proper stage too, and both Zelda and Sheik got new moves, so the growth wasn't totally stopping, it's just that most fans really want characters.

And I think the same thing happened with Ultimate. Botw wasn't released by the time the roster was chosen, so the only new game they could rep was A link between world and Triforce heroes. I'm sure Smash 6 will have more because the game that released between both games is much bigger (Totk).

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Spirit tracks which had basically no potential characters

It had Phantom Zelda to take over for the typical "Toon Zelda" placeholder of Brawl.

....and then that was taken by Zelda gaining a move that summons a Phantom, which I guess could have still worked for a Toon Zelda clone, but at that point it seems new clones were being cast away unless they were planned as alts initially.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Spirit tracks which had basically no potential characters

Byrne and Chancellor Cole would be rad though.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I always wonder if these NSO/Expansion Pack releases really help these games find new audiences, but in this case, I'm really hoping that's what happens.

 

[Louie G.]

It would be like adding trophies to represent Super Mario Odyssey, Breath of the Wild, Pokemon Sun and Moon, and Swapnote into Smash for Wii U in early 2017. Would it ruin the content added to represent these games in Ultimate? Of course not. However, it would dilute the general impact of these games being added to Smash, which harms Ultimate as a product.

To be fair, we did get an Inkling trophy and Mii Costumes in Smash 4. I feel like that's more comparable to what's going on here, seeing how like you said all these games are pretty obviously going to receive content in the next game anyway. But I understand what you mean now.

I don't think moving onto content from the next game in a mainstay series feels like much of an expansion of the crossover, not to the same degree as the aforementioned Undertale and Cuphead. If next spirit event is like... I dunno, Master Chief then yeah I would wonder why they even bothered. But with stuff like this I think we'd all be way more confused if we DIDN'T see Splatoon 3 or Pikmin 4 content, so nothing about my potential excitement is really affected. And adding a full character or even an AT from any of those games will always carry weight, having a physical presence in the game is its own beast.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Golden Sun is Goated so I can’t complain. I will say on the Zelda Talk though that Pig Ganon is based, Classic Link over Young Link, Rework Zelda and Ganondorf a little, fully unique Toon Link, and Impa should be here instead of Sheik. Also Midna and Wolf Link as a Bonus. Besides that Zelda is fine lol.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Smash is a celebration of gaming.

People just need to stop insisting that a celebration has to include everything.

My birthday party didn't stop being a birthday party just because I didn't invite Uncle Slim. He smells like green beans.

Not everything but a general representation that include most aspects of it. Can't do when the series is fully biased to one company in one region.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I always wonder if these NSO/Expansion Pack releases really help these games find new audiences, but in this case, I'm really hoping that's what happens.

Idk. These announcements would be a lot celebratory if i could actually own these games and not just $20 a year to borrow until NSO inevitability shuts downs and everything gets taken way

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Something I just thought of. The Best ‘em Up Legends.

Out of them which would you guys rather have?

Double Dragon
Kunio-kun
Streets of Rage
Final Fight
Battletoads

My personal choice is probably Double Dragon’s Billy and Jimmy as a Simon/Richter echo bundle but I’ll be real the idea of Axel, Kunio, Rash, or Cody/Guy/Hagard are all VERY good choices.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Something I just thought of. The Best ‘em Up Legends.

Out of them which would you guys rather have?

Double Dragon
Kunio-kun
Streets of Rage
Final Fight
Battletoads

My personal choice is probably Double Dragon’s Billy and Jimmy as a Simon/Richter echo bundle but I’ll be real the idea of Axel, Kunio, Rash, or Cody/Guy/Hagard are all VERY good choices.

Haggar of course would be neat.

But if I had to absolutely pick any Beat Em Up character?

Abobo. Screw the protagonists, give me goddamn Abobo.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Something I just thought of. The Best ‘em Up Legends.

Out of them which would you guys rather have?

Double Dragon
Kunio-kun
Streets of Rage
Final Fight
Battletoads

Kunio.

It's loosely the same franchise as Double Dragon. But it has way more games and they're also better games.

Abobo. Screw the protagonists, give me goddamn Abobo.

Abobo should be an AT.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Abobo should be an AT.

Nah. Abobo as the fighter.

 

[Quillion]

Why is it that Zelda fans want that series to be treated like a rotating cast franchise? It clearly isn't one to begin with.

 

[cashregister9]

Something I just thought of. The Best ‘em Up Legends.

Out of them which would you guys rather have?

Double Dragon
Kunio-kun
Streets of Rage
Final Fight
Battletoads

My personal choice is probably Double Dragon’s Billy and Jimmy as a Simon/Richter echo bundle but I’ll be real the idea of Axel, Kunio, Rash, or Cody/Guy/Hagard are all VERY good choices.

Billy and Jimmy as well as Kunio himself make the most sense for a history sense

but man my bias really wants Kyoko and Misako from River City Girls

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Why is it that Zelda fans want that series to be treated like a rotating cast franchise? It clearly isn't one to begin with.

Because it's not a bad thing.

Stop treating it like it's a bad thing.

 

[Sucumbio]

Something I just thought of. The Best ‘em Up Legends.

Out of them which would you guys rather have?

Double Dragon
Kunio-kun
Streets of Rage
Final Fight
Battletoads

My personal choice is probably Double Dragon’s Billy and Jimmy as a Simon/Richter echo bundle but I’ll be real the idea of Axel, Kunio, Rash, or Cody/Guy/Hagard are all VERY good choices.

I played final fight more but double dragon was the better franchise IMHO... I vote for Billy and Jimmy especially if we get the head grab knee knee flip over the shoulder combo!

 

[Quillion]

Because it's not a bad thing.

Stop treating it like it's a bad thing.

I don't fully dislike the idea, I just find it very conflicting because not only is Sakurai aiming for characters with more of a chance to stay around and never get cut, the Zelda fandom has a tendency to forget about which "character of the game" is once the next rolls around.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The best part of Double Dragon is it's theme song. Which, fortunately, is a regularly recurring theme in the River City games as well.

Nah. Abobo as the fighter.

Not his M.O.

He needs to be an AT so he can smash through the back wall, then toss your character off the screen.