Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

Something I just thought of. The Best ‘em Up Legends.

Out of them which would you guys rather have?

Double Dragon
Kunio-kun
Streets of Rage
Final Fight
Battletoads

My personal choice is probably Double Dragon’s Billy and Jimmy as a Simon/Richter echo bundle but I’ll be real the idea of Axel, Kunio, Rash, or Cody/Guy/Hagard are all VERY good choices.

I think everyone here probably knows which of these I want. The Battletoads are my brother’s favorite characters from anything ever so it would be awesome to see them in Smash. My favorite characters are the Ninja Turtles but that’s opening a whole other can of worms so I’m not going to hold my breath on that one.

 

[dream1ng]

Why is it that Zelda fans want that series to be treated like a rotating cast franchise? It clearly isn't one to begin with.

Because the majority of the cast rotates from game to game and it'd be cool to have received notable, popular characters like Midna and Ghirahim or Impa. Zelda is big enough with a popular enough b-tier to facilitate that without it being excessive or largely unwelcome.

And a side-effect of getting some of the popular requests benefits the others through reduced competition not as heavily fracturing the demand.

 

[Quillion]

Because the majority of the cast rotates from game to game and it'd be cool to have received notable, popular characters like Midna and Ghirahim or Impa. Zelda is big enough with a popular enough b-tier to facilitate that without it being excessive or largely unwelcome.

And a side-effect of getting some of the popular requests benefits the others through reduced competition not as heavily fracturing the demand.

Said "majority" is a whole bunch of minor characters though, and those minor characters don't even have influence on the series going forward.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Not his M.O.

He needs to be an AT so he can smash through the back wall, then toss your character off the screen.

That's his stage entrance.

 

[Sucumbio]

If we get something other than a triforce holder I'll be psyched but I have to agree the spread is between skull kid/midna/impa/ghirahim/beedle

 

[CannonStreak]

If we get something other than a triforce holder I'll be psyched but I have to agree the spread is between skull kid/midna/impa/ghirahim/beedle

I know he may be more of a Capcom character, but what about Vaati from Four Swords Adventures?

 

[Gengar84]

This is a good excuse to share my Rash/Battletoads moveset I made a while back. I’m pretty happy with how it turned out and we have some new faces here.

These Cameos are Killing Me! A Rash/Battletoads support thread

Introduction The Battletoads franchise was developed in 1991 by RARE in order to rival the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. These games cover a wide variety of genres within the same game, with each stage playing differently from the last. The franchise even got a one episode cartoon. While the...

smashboards.com

Here’s a stage I made in Stage Builder of the Khaos Mountain stage. The platform on the sifts up and down and the platform on the right shifts left and right. The middle platform is stationary. Here are a few screenshots to show the platforms at different stages:

This is the default layout before the platforms start shifting:

This is the midpoint of the left moving down and the right moving to the right:

This is the end point when both side platforms are off the screen for a bit. After this they start moving back to their original location and the cycle starts again:

 

[dream1ng]

Said "majority" is a whole bunch of minor characters though

Yeah, the majority of the cast. That's usually how bigger casts work. More of them are minor than major.

We'd get a major character from the game. Y'know, Midna, Ghirahim, Impa, Skull Kid, a champion, etc.

and those minor characters don't even have influence on the series going forward.

Because it's a rotating cast

You could be describing any number of RPGs in series with rotating casts. A small number of major characters, a whole bunch of minor characters, and it's rare for them to have influence on other titles in the series. At least ones that aren't direct prequels/sequels.

 

[Quillion]

Yeah, the majority of the cast. That's usually how bigger casts work. More of them are minor than major.

We'd get a major character from the game. Y'know, Midna, Ghirahim, Impa, Skull Kid, a champion, etc.


Because it's a rotating cast

You could be describing any number of RPGs in series with rotating casts. A small number of major characters, a whole bunch of minor characters, and it's rare for them to have influence on other titles in the series. At least ones that aren't direct prequels/sequels.

I mean, there's Breath of Fire which has a similar setup to Zelda with having a Ryu and Nina whereas Zelda has a Link, usually Zelda, and usually Ganon.

But at least most RPG series rotate their main characters out wholesale. Zelda doesn't (well it kinda does, and it also doesn't, but it leans more towards "doesn't").

 

[CannonStreak]

If I may on the Zelda character cast thing, Shiek has not been used much outside of Ocarina of Time, and Young Link has not been used much if I recall correctly in the more recent games and I am not sure if Toon Link has made a recent appearance either.

Sure, the Links are based on the existing Adult Link, and Shiek is supposed to be a part of Zelda, an alter ego of her at that, but if they have not appeared in recent games much or at all, I think it would not hurt to add more one-off characters like Minda and Skull Kid and the like, even if they are not as recurring as at least the kid Links. I don't know if this may mean anything, but I just wanted to point it out.

 

[Louie G.]

My question is why does it even matter? If a character is able to reach this kind of iconic status and popularity with one single major appearance, isn't that a testament to the quality of that character? It's one thing arguing that you don't think they'll go for it, that you think Nintendo / Sakurai will prioritize the more consistently relevant characters. I get that, it's pretty much already the precedent for the time being. This is the safe position to take.

But being AGAINST the idea of digging deeper into this well just feels to me like arbitrarily limiting creativity. If Smash already has all the major characters, which it does, let them have fun with some minor characters in one of their biggest series. We already have plenty of characters whose presence is pretty much just representing a single game - you may argue that their appearance in that game is more important, that those series are smaller, that they have rotating casts. I feel like that explains why they were chosen, but still doesn't explain to me why it makes someone like Skull Kid or Midna less valuable. Unique fun moveset potential, striking designs and personalities, they're tremendously popular. What's the issue? Why would we WANT to snub out characters like this, just because they don't ever appear again? Can't Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess stand on their own? They added like, Rosalina over someone like Toad and that was obviously just because Super Mario Galaxy was that good and she stood out. I think that was neat.

And of course, simply not caring about these characters is another thing and that's perfectly fine. But I find it so strange that people are so devoutly in favor of keeping some status quo like they're doing Nintendo's job for them. I'm convinced that some fans have been coerced into believing things like relevance, something generally used to judge a character's chance of being playable, is a tool to judge how good of an addition they would be. As a fan of a series, generally I'd be overjoyed for them to go for the deep cuts.

 

[SPEN18]

Not speaking in terms of how the devs necessarily do things here, but here's my thing on series representation.

I don't care what kind of cast it has. At a fundamental level, the size, importance, popularity, etc. of a series and the characters within should dictate how many development resources get directed to that series and its characters. Mind you, it's not about defaulting into quotas, but if the series itself has more notoriety then that automatically and naturally gives a boost to its characters.
If the series has a rotating cast, then that simply makes it more likely that the most significant characters within are one-off types. That's fine. A one-off can be more or less significant than a recurring character from the same or a different franchise.

So it's fine. It's all fine. Characters accrue merits through different means. Certain characters endure despite only appearing once or twice, and others get their dues from being consistently around.

If we have a series like Zelda where we're like, "well, it's kind of a fixed cast, but also kind of a rotating cast," then......it's pretty unsurprising that there are very significant characters of both types within that series. So just consider characters of both types as serious candidates. Otherwise all you're doing is establishing an arbitrary cutoff point.

Again using Zelda as the example, I think Impa is a very strong candidate in part because she recurs, and I think Skull Kid is a very strong candidate because his one primary appearance was immensely impactful; both have remained highly popular and recognizable to this day. So I put both on my roster, end of story.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I feel like none of this discussion would’ve happened if Smash focused more on Third Parties who actually mattered to Nintendo’s History lol. Like Layton and Kefka over Joker and Sephiroth any day of the week!

 

[Quillion]

My question is why does it even matter? If a character is able to reach this kind of iconic status and popularity with one single major appearance, isn't that a testament to the quality of that character? It's one thing arguing that you don't think they'll go for it, that you think Nintendo / Sakurai will prioritize the more consistently relevant characters. I get that, it's pretty much already the precedent for the time being. This is the safe position to take.

But being AGAINST the idea of digging deeper into this well just feels to me like arbitrarily limiting creativity. If Smash already has all the major characters, which it does, let them have fun with some minor characters in one of their biggest series. We already have plenty of characters whose presence is pretty much just representing a single game - you may argue that their appearance in that game is more important, that those series are smaller, that they have rotating casts. I feel like that explains why they were chosen, but still doesn't explain to me why it makes someone like Skull Kid or Midna less valuable. Unique fun moveset potential, striking designs and personalities, they're tremendously popular. What's the issue? Why would we WANT to snub out characters like this, just because they don't ever appear again? Can't Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess stand on their own? They added like, Rosalina over someone like Toad and that was obviously just because Super Mario Galaxy was that good and she stood out. I think that was neat.

And of course, simply not caring about these characters is another thing and that's perfectly fine. But I find it so strange that people are so devoutly in favor of keeping some status quo like they're doing Nintendo's job for them. I'm convinced that some fans have been coerce into believing things like relevance, something generally used to judge a character's chance of being playable, is a tool to judge how good of an addition they would be. As a fan of a series, generally I'd be overjoyed for them to go for the deep cuts.

I guess it depends if Sora Ltd. will be more open to cuts from here on out.

If they're still going with Sakurai's admitted dislike for cuts, then keep the status quo on Zelda.

If they want to break with it, then bring in the one-offs.

Sakurai's pretty set in his ways about the "as little cuts as possible" thing though.

 

[dream1ng]

I mean, there's Breath of Fire which has a similar setup to Zelda with having a Ryu and Nina whereas Zelda has a Link, usually Zelda, and usually Ganon.

But at least most RPG series rotate their main characters out wholesale. Zelda doesn't (well it kinda does, and it also doesn't, but it leans more towards "doesn't").

That's why I described it as a mix.

And we already have the very few constants. And indeed they should've been the first to get added. But with them already dealt with, we now have the rotational aspect. And therein there are major not recurring/less recurring characters who also have popularity.

Sounds like you're turning your nose up at getting a popular, original Zelda newcomer every game because you don't like the rotational basis of the inclusion. But rotational casts that force additions from the newest game are maligned in part because they choose less popular options and overcrowd the series. But these Zelda characters in question have basically all had natural demand free from the constrained expectations of a promo series, and Zelda is big enough that one newcomer per game wouldn't cause people to cry oversaturation like with FE.

What's the problem? The main recurring characters are there, as are some of the popular major one-offs (or less recurring characters), and even with an original newcomer in Brawl, 4, and Ultimate it still wouldn't exceed Mario or Pokemon.

If any series is overdue to dip into its b-tier, it's Zelda.

 

[Gengar84]

My question is why does it even matter? If a character is able to reach this kind of iconic status and popularity with one single major appearance, isn't that a testament to the quality of that character? It's one thing arguing that you don't think they'll go for it, that you think Nintendo / Sakurai will prioritize the more consistently relevant characters. I get that, it's pretty much already the precedent for the time being. This is the safe position to take.

But being AGAINST the idea of digging deeper into this well just feels to me like arbitrarily limiting creativity. If Smash already has all the major characters, which it does, let them have fun with some minor characters in one of their biggest series. We already have plenty of characters whose presence is pretty much just representing a single game - you may argue that their appearance in that game is more important, that those series are smaller, that they have rotating casts. I feel like that explains why they were chosen, but still doesn't explain to me why it makes someone like Skull Kid or Midna less valuable. Unique fun moveset potential, striking designs and personalities, they're tremendously popular. What's the issue? Why would we WANT to snub out characters like this, just because they don't ever appear again? Can't Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess stand on their own? They added like, Rosalina over someone like Toad and that was obviously just because Super Mario Galaxy was that good and she stood out. I think that was neat.

And of course, simply not caring about these characters is another thing and that's perfectly fine. But I find it so strange that people are so devoutly in favor of keeping some status quo like they're doing Nintendo's job for them. I'm convinced that some fans have been coerce into believing things like relevance, something generally used to judge a character's chance of being playable, is a tool to judge how good of an addition they would be. As a fan of a series, generally I'd be overjoyed for them to go for the deep cuts.

I totally agree. If a character is popular and would make a lot of people happy if they joined Smash, that should be the main thing that matters. It doesn’t really make sense to me to exclude characters just because they have only made one appearance. We already do this with RPGs with rotating casts like Fire Emblem so I don’t see how doing the same with a game like Zelda would be a bad thing. A ton of people like Skull Kid and Midna and that should be enough for them to at least be considered. Like you said, they’re going to eventually run out of major recurring characters at some point anyways so including one-offs seems inevitable if the series is going to continue.

 

[CannonStreak]

My question is why does it even matter? If a character is able to reach this kind of iconic status and popularity with one single major appearance, isn't that a testament to the quality of that character? It's one thing arguing that you don't think they'll go for it, that you think Nintendo / Sakurai will prioritize the more consistently relevant characters. I get that, it's pretty much already the precedent for the time being. This is the safe position to take.

But being AGAINST the idea of digging deeper into this well just feels to me like arbitrarily limiting creativity. If Smash already has all the major characters, which it does, let them have fun with some minor characters in one of their biggest series. We already have plenty of characters whose presence is pretty much just representing a single game - you may argue that their appearance in that game is more important, that those series are smaller, that they have rotating casts. I feel like that explains why they were chosen, but still doesn't explain to me why it makes someone like Skull Kid or Midna less valuable. Unique fun moveset potential, striking designs and personalities, they're tremendously popular. What's the issue? Why would we WANT to snub out characters like this, just because they don't ever appear again? Can't Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess stand on their own? They added like, Rosalina over someone like Toad and that was obviously just because Super Mario Galaxy was that good and she stood out. I think that was neat.

And of course, simply not caring about these characters is another thing and that's perfectly fine. But I find it so strange that people are so devoutly in favor of keeping some status quo like they're doing Nintendo's job for them. I'm convinced that some fans have been coerce into believing things like relevance, something generally used to judge a character's chance of being playable, is a tool to judge how good of an addition they would be. As a fan of a series, generally I'd be overjoyed for them to go for the deep cuts.

You know, I like the idea of more minor characters being in Smash, and speaking of that; is it just me, or do I think at least some of the minor characters, first or third party, might have some more unique moveset potential for characters in a Smash Bros. game?

Anyway, I do agree with what you said. I mean, I say Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess are great games that can stand on their own, so why not include characters as playables in a Smash game from those individual games in the series? I mean, to me, it would be a great way to represent those games within the Zelda franchise's history, considering how great those games are.

That said, I think it would be boring if we were stuck with the main cast and kid versions of one character and an alter ego of another. One way or another, you have to spice up representation of a series in Smash in terms of playable characters in Smash Bros. somehow.

 

[Quillion]

Sounds like you're turning your nose up at getting a popular, original Zelda newcomer every game because you don't like the rotational basis of the inclusion.

Yeah, that's part of it.

I'm very clear about dreading Xenoblade joining the ranks of Pokémon and Fire Emblem as another rotating cast franchise (to be clear, I expect it to be the case, and I also dislike the prospect), and switching Zelda's character approach to that would be way overkill.

 

[Louie G.]

I totally agree. If a character is popular and would make a lot of people happy if they joined Smash, that should be the main thing that matters. It doesn’t really make sense to me to exclude characters that have only made one appearance. We already do this with RPGs with rotating casts like Fire Emblem so I don’t see how doing the same with a game like Zelda would be a bad thing. A ton of people like Skull Kid and Midna and that should be enough for them to at least be considered.

I think my mindset on this shifted a lot after I started digging more into Marvel vs Capcom, and realizing that those guys just go for whatever crazy idea inspires them. Obscure X-Men characters, Shuma Gorath over Dr. Strange, War Machine before Iron Man. Jin from Cyberbots in MVC1, Tron Bonne as the Mega Man Legends character, and for all you can say about MVCI they added friggin JEDAH which I appreciate a lot. Pretty much the only place left where Darkstalkers can get that love.

And that's lead to some very memorable and fun characters, so I wish Smash loosened up a bit more sometimes to take a chance on more hidden gems and supporting characters. Not to go like crazy in the other direction and add total unknowns, or mess with the order and start adding more secondary characters over the main guy, just getting more experimental as most of the completely necessary ones are already here and not going anywhere.

 

[SPEN18]

I will add that a lot of the attitude towards the Zelda one-offs stems from back in say the Brawl days when we really only did have space for the Triforce and little else. I mean, even then I'd argue that you could've maybe snuck in one character like an Impa or a Skull Kid, but at least that was the perception.

 

[Gengar84]

I think my mindset on this shifted a lot after I started digging more into Marvel vs Capcom, and realizing that those guys just go for whatever crazy idea inspires them. Obscure X-Men characters, Shuma Gorath over Dr. Strange, War Machine before Iron Man. And that's lead to some very memorable and fun characters, so I wish Smash loosened up a bit more sometimes to take a chance on more hidden gems and supporting characters. Not to go like crazy in the other direction and add total unknowns, or mess with the order and start adding more secondary characters over the main guy, just getting more experimental as most of the completely necessary ones are already here and not going anywhere.

Same here. I just want cool characters that bring fun and unique gameplay. Their status as iconic or main characters doesn’t really matter much for me. Sure, that should definitely factor at least somewhat into the decision but I don’t think more minor characters should be excluded.

 

[Quillion]

You know, there's all this talk about Zelda needing the one-offs to be represented in Smash.

But I highly doubt the Kirby fans will want one-offs if/when Bandana Dee becomes a fighter.

 

[Noipoi]

Zelda needs a new character mfs when its Tingle

 

[Louie G.]

But I highly doubt the Kirby fans will want one-offs if/when Bandana Dee becomes a fighter.

I’ve wanted Marx playable ever since I played Super Star Ultra over 15 years ago, so I would beg to differ.

Would take several of the dream friends over Bandana Dee in fact, but that’s my full bias involved and not what I actually believe they should do. Magolor, Susie, Daroach, I’d love all of them especially since Star Allies shows how naturally any of them could fit into a Smash moveset.

Hard to make a strong case for any of those when Dee is like one step below being Kirby’s Luigi, but I digress.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Zelda needs a new character mfs when its Tingle

Ah, so one of the really neat choices among quite a few.

Honestly, he'd be a great choice with tons of potential. Among many others, really~

 

[Gengar84]

I’ve wanted Marx playable ever since I played Super Star Ultra over 15 years ago, so I would beg to differ.

Would take several of the dream friends over Bandana Dee in fact, but that’s my full bias involved and not what I actually believe they should do. Magolor, Susie, Daroach, I’d love all of them especially since Star Allies shows how naturally any of them could fit into a Smash moveset.

Hard to make a strong case for any of those when Dee is like one step below being Kirby’s Luigi, but I digress.

Hey I want Bugzzy and it’s even less likely than any of those so I feel you lol.

 

[SPEN18]

I guess it depends if Sora Ltd. will be more open to cuts from here on out.

If they're still going with Sakurai's admitted dislike for cuts, then keep the status quo on Zelda.

If they want to break with it, then bring in the one-offs.

Sakurai's pretty set in his ways about the "as little cuts as possible" thing though.

I will admit that the somewhat idealistic approach I laid out above works better if they're more open to cuts at least in principle, so that if you decide on a character that seems to make sense at the time, and they end up not being as popular or impactful as you thought they'd be or if circumstances simply change, then you can course-correct later. I mean, ideally you set things up and make the right choices and have enough resources/space to expand in order to not have to cut anyone ever, but practically I think it's healthy to reevaluate the entire roster every time (just in the idealized scenario, you end up concluding each time that no cuts make sense). It helps that to a certain extent they have control over what becomes the most popular or important, since they're the ones making the games and setting the marketing, which with proper coordination and planning can help more timing-dependent picks age well.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Why is it that Zelda fans want that series to be treated like a rotating cast franchise? It clearly isn't one to begin with.

I dont get it either, its already well represented in smash.

 

[Louie G.]

I dont get it either, its already well represented in smash.

I'm not the most diehard Zelda fan, so I won't lose sleep over it one way or the other but I can understand it. We see Mario and Pokemon get new additions every game, and Zelda is usually perceived as part of that big three but hasn't been updated since Brawl added a replacement for Young Link. It's been sterile for over 20 years, 15 years if you want to count Toon Link as a totally different entity, and at a certain point you begin to feel that.

I do think people should have more appreciation for just how much non-playable content Zelda has, how it has some of the best stages, music and item representation in the game and several of its popular one-offs represented as Assist Trophies. Pig Ganon is a boss, everyone got sufficiently updated with new designs and / or moveset quirks. Zelda is not in a BAD spot, but it could be in a better one relative to other series whose casts continued to grow. It just hasn't been granted that same privilege.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I do think people should have more appreciation for just how much non-playable content Zelda has, how it has some of the best stages, music and item representation in the game and several of its popular one-offs represented as Assist Trophies. Pig Ganon is a boss, everyone got sufficiently updated with new designs and / or moveset quirks. Zelda is not in a BAD spot, but it could be in a better one relative to other series whose casts continued to grow. It just hasn't been granted that same privilege.

That's always been what i saw in Zelda, it's less about the story and characters and more about the world these characters live in, so many tons of stages and items makes more sense to me.

 

[Ivander]

I think my mindset on this shifted a lot after I started digging more into Marvel vs Capcom, and realizing that those guys just go for whatever crazy idea inspires them. Obscure X-Men characters, Shuma Gorath over Dr. Strange, War Machine before Iron Man. Jin from Cyberbots in MVC1, Tron Bonne as the Mega Man Legends character, and for all you can say about MVCI they added friggin JEDAH which I appreciate a lot. Pretty much the only place left where Darkstalkers can get that love.

And that's lead to some very memorable and fun characters, so I wish Smash loosened up a bit more sometimes to take a chance on more hidden gems and supporting characters. Not to go like crazy in the other direction and add total unknowns, or mess with the order and start adding more secondary characters over the main guy, just getting more experimental as most of the completely necessary ones are already here and not going anywhere.

• Well, War Machine happened because they couldn't get Iron Man again for legal reasons, as another company had the license for Iron Man at the time.
• Sure, Jin was a surprising choice since Jin was mainly Arcade-exclusive, but Strider Hiryu and Captain Commando were just as surprising, since Strider 2(the true sequel and not Strider Returns) came after Marvel vs Capcom and Strider's main game released in 1989, and Captain Commando came out in 1991 and he did not have a 2nd game.
• Tron Bonne isn't too surprising when you consider Jill Valentine and Hayato from Star Gladiator, 2 other characters who had games on Playstation, also got in MvC2.

But yeah, Shuma Gorath certainly got the breakout treatment after his Marvel vs Capcom appearances, with how he was made much more powerful in the comics after his breakout with the Vs. Capcom games. I would like to say Psylocke too, considering how much she appeared in Capcom-made Marvel games before MvC3, but I don't know much about her comic and cartoon appearances at the time when she was prevalent. To me who only did a surface look at her appearances in the Capcom games compared to her appearances in the comics and cartoons at the time, she hardly had any appearances in the comics and cartoons compared to the amount of video games she's appeared in.
Doesn't help that even afterwards, she only appeared as a cameo in one X-Men movie and only later in the 2010s does she get a full appearance in a movie. And yet with how much she appears in video games and fanart alongside Storm and Jean Gray, you'd think she would have alot more appearances in non-video game media.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

• Well, War Machine happened because they couldn't get Iron Man again for legal reasons, as another company had the license for Iron Man at the time.
• Sure, Jin was a surprising choice since Jin was mainly Arcade-exclusive, but Strider Hiryu and Captain Commando were just as surprising, since Strider 2(the true sequel and not Strider Returns) came after Marvel vs Capcom and Strider's main game released in 1989, and Captain Commando came out in 1991 and he did not have a 2nd game.
• Tron Bonne isn't too surprising when you consider Jill Valentine and Hayato from Star Gladiator, 2 other characters who had games on Playstation, also got in MvC2.

But yeah, Shuma Gorath certainly got the breakout treatment after his Marvel vs Capcom appearances, with how he was made much more powerful in the comics after his breakout with the Vs. Capcom games. I would like to say Psylocke too, considering how much she appeared in Capcom-made Marvel games before MvC3, but I don't know much about her comic and cartoon appearances at the time when she was prevalent. To me who only did a surface look at her appearances in the Capcom games compared to her appearances in the comics and cartoons at the time, she hardly had any appearances in the comics and cartoons compared to the amount of video games she's appeared in.
Doesn't help that even afterwards, she only appeared as a cameo in one X-Men movie and only later in the 2010s does she get a full appearance in a movie. And yet with how much she appears in video games and fanart alongside Storm and Jean Gray, you'd think she would have alot more appearances in non-video game media.

For some reason i find it funny how their solution to the Iron man legal issues was to just recolor the sprite sheet.

 

[dream1ng]

I dont get it either, its already well represented in smash.

Yeah the stages and everything under that are fine. But the roster of six is half filled with varying levels of clone, including three Links and a moveset originating from a totally different IP for one of gaming's biggest villains. Then there's Zelda and other Zelda, the lone one-off.

There's been no character since Brawl, and no original character since Melee. One Smash game makes up 4/6 of all Zelda additions. Two of the main three have movesets which don't even represent what they do in the games that well (though that's also a function of when they were added).

How many Zelda games have released since the last character was chosen? Even without spin-offs and remakes, it must be close to half the series... including two which constitute like... a third of the total series sales.

Meanwhile there are a wealth of popular b-tier characters ranging from the last 25 years of games, the amount of whom people would like to see it's actually inhibiting one from pulling ahead of the others.

I agree that representation doesn't just come from fighters. But the fighters are the central component of the game, and are the most cared about, most discussed, most marketed, most hype-inducing part of Smash. They're who you play as. And in that regard, I think Zelda has room for improvement.

 

[Schnee117]

Zelda has enough of a B tier cast that they could fill out two Musou titles with a few ocs thrown in. You don't really get to do something like Hyrule Warriors if people don't love the characters in the first place. All this downplaying of the extended Zelda cast is really weird, why do you think there's multiple games that showcase the cast? Who exactly helps flesh out the worlds these characters inhabit? Why does just about every game introduce new characters that they spend a decent amount of time focusing on? Just because they aren't exactly the deepest characters ever written doesn't mean the franchise doesn't have a focus on them too.

 

[Ivander]

For some reason i find it funny how their solution to the Iron man legal issues was to just recolor the sprite sheet.

Well they did do more. Besides recoloring the Sprite sheet, they changed the laser attacks to missiles and rockets, and gave him a 2nd Special that Iron Man didn't have.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

One-off Zelda characters are already in Smash, in the form of Sheik.
Yeah she's technically Zelda, but Sheik as an identity only appears in Ocarina of Time, and even in Smash they're fully separate characters now.
Not to mention the one-off, or essentially one-off characters that other series get all the time.
What really holds these Zelda characters back, the way I see it, is that Nintendo characters usually come from one of these camps: recent character, extremely requested character, or retro/surprise character. I don't think Skull Kid and Midna fit into any of these, they are requested but not as much as Ridley and K. Rool were, they don't really fit the usual surprise character mold, and while they still get to appear in spin-offs they're never going to have a significant role in a mainline Zelda any time soon.

Rauru however fits neatly in the recent camp, that's part of why he's my prediction. The other part is because making him a character is the best way to meaningfully represent TotK's mechanics in Smash.
He's not the Zelda character I really want, but he's the only one that actually has a shot to get in, in my opinion. Plus he'd be fun

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing with the one-off factor is that Sheik got in because Zelda got in, and vice-versa. They were intentionally added s a pair due to a mechanic.

This isn't like other one-off characters and there was no way to know Sheik would not reappear either way. The mechanic came first. Nowadays we have a lot more one-offs that only appear at best via cameos or spin-offs. The only consistent character design is mainly Tingle otherwise(and do note that his cartoony look is pretty much just more colorful). Others still exist like Beedle etc., but they're usually not as major of characters that get recurred. Besides that, Impa suffers from being effectively a fully unique design in multiple games, something Link and Zelda don't have an issue with. Ganondorf barely does either(with only the WW and TOTK versions being noticeably different from OOT and TP respectively). Zelda still has the same core design, with different outfits, in most games too. Sheik aside, of course.

As for Sheik, we don't exactly know if she was planned for TP or if a design was made based upon the TP style. The way Hyrule Historia reads is a bit vague enough to take it either way. Her returning made sense at the time, due to Brawl keeping the same transformation mechanic. It's also way less work than doing an entirely new character. Besides that, he had planned at one point(enough to put files in) for a Toon Sheik. And contrary to many theories, this would've said Tetra if that was the original plan. He wouldn't use such a clearly specific name otherwise. There could've been various kinds of code names it could have, but that's not the case here. So even being a one-off, he had thought about a clone of her, being a full Smash OC in the same way that Giga Bowser actually is(Mr. Game & Watch is borderline, since it's a fusion of all his games into one moveset. There is no actual Mr. Game & Watch in his games. He's only technically a Smash OC, but Giga Bowser was straight out made for Smash as a design, no different from Master Hand or Crazy Hand, etc).

More to the point, being a one-off isn't a detriment on its own. It's just that Smash represents the most important characters in Zelda, with at worst regular Ganon not appearing outside of a cameo or mention at first. He has zero references in Melee, and is mentioned in Link's Smash 64 profile. In Brawl, he appears in his TP design, and Ultimate changes him to the OOT design. Puppet Ganon is also never a Sticker or Trophy oddly enough. ALTTP Ganon isn't given any love either. Thankfully we still get a pretty strong usage of him via the Final Smash and related materials, as well as a Boss eventually. Sure, it isn't his most memorable design(ALTTP), and functions very differently from him in terms of abilities, but it's still there.

I could absolutely see other notable ones getting in regardless. But as noted, it's an uphill battle. With no specific character being rallied behind, it leaves a ton of fan favorites who get put in other roles since they still get represented, to please as many at once. Incidentally, Impa took a lonnnnnng time to appear, whereas Tingle was there by Melee in some way. It's unclear why. Maybe he was more popular in general? Who knows. Impa didn't exactly become notable till OOT where she played a role besides sending you on a mission(or have any in-game appearances besides the CD-i games).

 

[Wonder Smash]

So, reading about how Smash Bros. seems to tend to ignore western gaming properties, I was wondering: Does Sakurai know what he is doing? I mean, he intends Smash Bros. to be a celebration of gaming itself. Would it be a celebration of gaming overall if it were just Japanese and maybe Eastern games overall Sakurai just focused on for Smash and not any Western games? Adding characters from Western games into Smash as spirits, Mii costumes and trophies (as how Rayman was in Smash 4 with the trophy thing) is not going to be enough.

Sometimes, it's best not to always go by how Sakurai describes Smash because it's really just his own interpretation. Plus, keep in mind, he's not with Nintendo. Heck, he even says Smash is not a fighting game, even though Nintendo, the actual owners of the series, says that it is.

In this case, while he may describe Smash as a "celebration of gaming", one thing nobody can deny is that it's definitely a celebration of Nintendo and third-party characters have been described as guests.

Something I just thought of. The Best ‘em Up Legends.

Out of them which would you guys rather have?

Double Dragon
Kunio-kun
Streets of Rage
Final Fight
Battletoads

My personal choice is probably Double Dragon’s Billy and Jimmy as a Simon/Richter echo bundle but I’ll be real the idea of Axel, Kunio, Rash, or Cody/Guy/Hagard are all VERY good choices.

I'd rather have both Double Dragon and Kunio-kun/River City.

 

[Idon]

One-off Zelda characters are already in Smash, in the form of Sheik.
Yeah she's technically Zelda, but Sheik as an identity only appears in Ocarina of Time, and even in Smash they're fully separate characters now.
Not to mention the one-off, or essentially one-off characters that other series get all the time.

Yeah because Sheik piggybacked off of Zelda in Melee as her character gimmick and as Smash likes to do, she was grandfathered into every future iteration, neatly fulfilling the role of a "ninja' type fighting character while like any character, generating a loyal fanbase.

Sheik is the greatest example of the biggest hurdle in getting people to swallow a character pill being the very first one. Once just about any character makes it in, they will be asked to stay forever. Of course, if Sheik had never came in as she did back then in Melee, she would not even be in this conversation of potential Zelda characters to include as her source material gives her almost nothing to work with.

Point being... Don't treat Sheik as an example of breaking the mold when her inclusion comes under very unique extenuating circumstances.

 

[Arcanir]

I could absolutely see other notable ones getting in regardless. But as noted, it's an uphill battle. With no specific character being rallied behind, it leaves a ton of fan favorites who get put in other roles since they still get represented, to please as many at once. Incidentally, Impa took a lonnnnnng time to appear, whereas Tingle was there by Melee in some way. It's unclear why. Maybe he was more popular in general? Who knows. Impa didn't exactly become notable till OOT where she played a role besides sending you on a mission(or have any in-game appearances besides the CD-i games).

I feel with Impa she didn't really start to come ahead of the pack until around Smash 4. As you said, she didn't really have many major roles before OoT, and even before Brawl her roles were still pretty limited with the aforementioned OoT and the Oracle games being her biggest ones and in both cases there were other NPCs with similar or more important roles that people gravitated to more. In that sense it's no surprise Tingle got higher billing then her since he was a popular character (at least in Japan) that managed to get a couple spinoff games.

Skyward Sword is where I feel she started to truly grow as she had a big role that was not shared by any other, and from there she started getting more notable roles in the Hyrule Warrior games (both the original and AoC) and to a lesser extent, the BotW games, that allowed her to further grow her fanbase. She's definitely more of a standout now then she was back in the days of Brawl.