Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Louie G.]

Master Chief still doesn't have any of his games on Nintendo consoles whereas Doom Slayer has his whole series on them.

Arguing about this is typically a dead end, so I'm not going to, but from my perspective this "rule" is on life support. Cloud should have woken everyone up to this the moment people started using a Final Fantasy rhythm game on the 3DS as a loophole (and with Joker in mind, apparently the 3DS is the home of irrelevant loopholes). Final Fantasy VII is the reason Cloud is in Smash - no more, no less. It took four years after that to bring Cloud's game to Switch. And if priority automatically went toward series with more Nintendo clout, we'd have gotten an SMT character over Persona.

And no matter how big Halo is, that still doesn't change how big and important DOOM is.

It doesn't change that, but allow me to use Cloud as an example again. FFVII is not the grandfather of its genre, Dragon Quest is. But Cloud took precedent over Hero all the same - just re-contextualize that with Halo and Doom. Master Chief and Cloud are the biggest icons of their respective genres, they represent revolutionary games that didn't invent but instead elevated a genre. This isn't me saying what SHOULD be the priority - celebrating deep historic legacy or sheer popularity and iconography - but we've already got precedent for this and Smash is not exactly that strict about going in chronological order or anything.

Also, he's bound to be a very unique character for the roster since he's a FPS character, something Smash doesn't have yet, so he really doesn't have that much competition.

So is Master Chief, and I made my case for why he is steep competition already. But really it should speak for itself. I think either option would make for a great choice. The Mii costume point is fair enough, I can't really argue against that but I don't think it's the be all end all either.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Did anyone mention Bioware or EA in the recent Western 3rd party prospects? My wife just started playing the Mass Effect series and now I want Commander Shepard lol.

EA is kind of weird becuase they have a lot of huge franchise, but not that much big character. Most of their biggest franchise don't even have protagonist or mascot at all like Sports game, Sims, Need for speed, Battlefield or Bejeweled.

I don't really see Shepard having a really high cances to get in the game tbh, I think they would go with Skyrim or Fallout if they want a Western rpg rep, or they would go with Master chief or Doom slayer if they want a sci-fi dude with guns. Isaac Clarke could also be a good choice for a EA rep, but he's also in that same spot where I don't really see him being neither or first shooter rep, nor or first horror rep.

I think a sleeper EA pick could be an Apex legends character, I've heard it's actually pretty big in Japan. Then again, even if the franchise is fairly popular I'm not sure if Apex could get in before Fortnite, Team fortress, Overwatch, Halo or Doom for our first shooter rep.

 

[SPEN18]

The funny thing is people talk so much about the third party costumes but in Ult all the actual "costume promotions" were first party characters like KRool, Inkling, Isabelle, Chrom.
I mean Tekken got a PC after having a costume in 4, but that's it and it wasn't even the same character.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Arguing about this is typically a dead end, so I'm not going to, but from my perspective this "rule" is on life support. Cloud should have woken everyone up to this the moment people started using a Final Fantasy rhythm game on the 3DS as a loophole (and with Joker in mind, apparently the 3DS is the home of irrelevant loopholes). Final Fantasy VII is the reason Cloud is in Smash - no more, no less. It took four years after that to bring Cloud's game to Switch. And if priority automatically went toward series with more Nintendo clout, we'd have gotten an SMT character over Persona.

It's not just Cloud's appearance in that game (as well as in KH:CoM). The series itself started on Nintendo consoles and was still being released on there before Cloud appeared in Smash.

Meanwhile we know where Halo came from, which had...no involvement from Nintendo.

I really don't get this comparison like Master Chief is in the position as Cloud was during Smash 4 when even back then, he had more going for him than Chief does now.

It doesn't change that, but allow me to use Cloud as an example again. FFVII is not the grandfather of its genre, Dragon Quest is. But Cloud took precedent over Hero all the same - just re-contextualize that with Halo and Doom. Master Chief and Cloud are the biggest icons of their respective genres, they represent revolutionary games that didn't invent but instead elevated a genre. This isn't me saying what SHOULD be the priority - celebrating deep historic legacy or sheer popularity and iconography - but we've already got precedent for this and Smash is not exactly that strict about going in chronological order or anything.

The thing is, however, is whereas there's both Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest in Smash already, there's only DOOM and no Halo. Plus, keep in mind, Master Chief is like their unofficial mascot and what I've noticed in the Smash series so far, those type of characters are usually revealed first. Yet, this wasn't the case for Microsoft.

Another thing to point out is that Cloud is not the only FF icon Square Enix have. There's also Sephiroth, another FFVII character who ended up being added to the roster. But noticed how he was added after Hero? Which shows that FFVII, even with how iconic it is, is not always a top priority. This same thing clearly applies to Master Chief; Halo is iconic and revolutionary but that it didn't make it an automatic priority over Banjo-Kazooie or anything else from Microsoft (including DOOM) that made it into Smash

So is Master Chief, and I made my case for why he is steep competition already. But really it should speak for itself. I think either option would make for a great choice. The Mii costume point is fair enough, I can't really argue against that but I don't think it's the be all end all either.

I'm just saying, with the whole story surrounding ID Software's interest in seeing Doom Slayer in Smash and how Sakurai was saying how Mii costumes were "consolation prizes", it's safe to assume that it does seem to work more in his favor for now.

 

[fogbadge]

The funny thing is people talk so much about the third party costumes but in Ult all the actual "costume promotions" were first party characters like KRool, Inkling, Isabelle, Chrom.
I mean Tekken got a PC after having a costume in 4, but that's it and it wasn't even the same character.

yep. though I still don’t fancy toad and chibis chances

 

[CapitaineCrash]

The funny thing is people talk so much about the third party costumes but in Ult all the actual "costume promotions" were first party characters like KRool, Inkling, Isabelle, Chrom.
I mean Tekken got a PC after having a costume in 4, but that's it and it wasn't even the same character.

The context is very different tho. I just checked and Smash 4 had 40 dlc mii costumes, 17 were first party franchise and 16 were from third party franchise (the others 7 were Smash originals, I guess they're technically first party but for the sake of this I'm just not going to not count them because cat suit and business suits were never going to be upgrade as playable either way).

Ultimate had 54 dlc mii costumes. Out of those only 8 are first party and 46 are third party. So of course, when talking about mii costumes upgrade chances are that a third party is much more brought up than a first party. Out of those 8 first party costumes, some of them are obviously not getting upgrade like Rex and Ancient helm armor either way.

 

[SPEN18]

The context is very different tho. I just checked and Smash 4 had 40 dlc mii costumes, 17 were first party franchise and 16 were from third party franchise (the others 7 were Smash originals, I guess they're technically first party but for the sake of this I'm just not going to not count them because cat suit and business suits were never going to be upgrade as playable either way).

Ultimate had 54 dlc mii costumes. Out of those only 8 are first party and 46 are third party. So of course, when talking about mii costumes upgrade chances are that a third party is much more brought up than a first party. Out of those 8 first party costumes, some of them are obviously not getting upgrade like Rex and Ancient helm armor either way.

I don't see why you shouldn't count base game costumes, or costumes that were in Smash 4 also if it's a character that still has merit.
Fact is, plenty of first party characters who were costumes in Ult could plausibly be made playable in the future.
I think it's more than just a numbers game. Among both first and third party costumes there are some who I wouldn't really consider as super serious candidates to be playable.

 

[Geno Boost]

how do you guys feel about GTA rep in smash?

EA is kind of weird becuase they have a lot of huge franchise, but not that much big character. Most of their biggest franchise don't even have protagonist or mascot at all like Sports game, Sims, Need for speed, Battlefield or Bejeweled.

if Tetromino will ever become playable in smash i would demand for Gem from bejeweled to get in smash lol

 

[fogbadge]

how do you guys feel about GTA rep in smash?

well there might be something pleasing about having a scottish character in the game

 

[Louie G.]

Another thing to point out is that Cloud is not the only FF icon Square Enix have. There's also Sephiroth, another FFVII character who ended up being added to the roster. But noticed how he was added after Hero? Which shows that FFVII, even with how iconic it is, is not always a top priority.

I don't really feel the need to go back and forth about the rest - I'm only doing this to defend Master Chief's viability as a character, not to say he will absolutely be in over Doom Slayer - but I just wanted to say that this train of thought makes no sense. Yes, obviously some variety is prioritized over stacking up more and more on the same franchise. Sephiroth is a very poor example for this though because he is the first fully original second character to come from a third party IP, an IP that has 16 mainline games and we are already at two characters from one single title. It's hard to say that isn't "top priority". And Cloud was still first no matter which way we want to cut it.

Banjo and Steve were prioritized because Banjo was one of the most highly requested characters ever, and Steve is from the biggest game in the world. It's not hard to understand. We can split hairs on where to go from there but by your logic it's looking like Master Chief, then Doom Slayer, then I dunno... Arbiter? Lol

even back then, he had more going for him than Chief does now.

I was there, people were discussing Black Mage as our Final Fantasy prospect if anyone. Cloud was not on the table because of assumptions about viability.

 

[Ivander]

well there might be something pleasing about having a scottish character in the game

So Gloria from Pokemon for Smash Bros.?

 

[HyperSomari64]

So Gloria from Pokemon for Smash Bros.?

Nah, she's welsh.coded

 

[fogbadge]

So Gloria from Pokemon for Smash Bros.?

don't mention that meme to me

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think Crash is more likely than Master chief.

But thats just me,

 

[Speed Weed]

After a lengthy conversation on a Discord I'm in, I am now convinced that our next Microsoft rep needs to be King Graham from King's Quest and if it's anyone else I will punch a hole through a wall

 

[HyperSomari64]

don't mention that meme to me

Sorry

Not Sorry...

 

[Ivander]

don't mention that meme to me

Uh oh, someone went "It's Chewsday, innit?" within proximity range, did they?

In actual honesty, by what I've been told, Gloria's voice and accent in Pokemon Masters is somewhat Scottish, with some English/Cockney mixed in.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

After a lengthy conversation on a Discord I'm in, I am now convinced that our next Microsoft rep needs to be King Graham from King's Quest and if it's anyone else I will punch a hole through a wall

If we end up with the town as his stage complete with this music, I'm blaming you:

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Im pretty sure the hometown in Sword and shield is in Scotland or something so it would track.

 

[Ivander]

Im pretty sure the hometown in Sword and shield is in Scotland or something so it would track.

By what I've been told, it's based on an actual area that's around the border between England and Scotland, so she would be half and half.

 

[fogbadge]

Uh oh, someone went "It's Chewsday, innit?" within proximity range, did they?

In actual honesty, by what I've been told, Gloria's voice and accent in Pokemon Masters is somewhat Scottish, with some English/Cockney mixed in.

they lied to you

 

[Garteam]

Microsoft's base game rep: Crash
Microsoft's Fighter's Pass 1 character: Doom Slayer
Microsoft's Fighter's Pass 2 character: Master Chief

Ba da bing. Ba da boom.

 

[HyperSomari64]

After a lengthy conversation on a Discord I'm in, I am now convinced that our next Microsoft rep needs to be King Graham from King's Quest and if it's anyone else I will punch a hole through a wall

Don't remind Me on his reboot's design, which was borderline "Tumblr Sexyman" material.

 

[Noipoi]

This is Blinx erasure

 

[Wonder Smash]

I don't really feel the need to go back and forth about the rest - I'm only doing this to defend Master Chief's viability as a character, not to say he will absolutely be in over Doom Slayer - but I just wanted to say that this train of thought makes no sense. Yes, obviously some variety is prioritized over stacking up more and more on the same franchise. Sephiroth is a very poor example for this though because he is the first fully original second character to come from a third party IP, an IP that has 16 mainline games and we are already at two characters from one single title. It's hard to say that isn't "top priority". And Cloud was still first no matter which way we want to cut it.

Banjo and Steve were prioritized because Banjo was one of the most highly requested characters ever, and Steve is from the biggest game in the world. It's not hard to understand. We can split hairs on where to go from there but by your logic it's looking like Master Chief, then Doom Slayer, then I dunno... Arbiter? Lol

It's not really a poor example. Both Cloud and Sephiroth are popular characters from the same game, yet Hero got in after one but before the other one. If popularity was a measurement for when a character gets in, Hero should have gotten in after Sephiroth. But it's pretty clear there's no order in which iconic characters are shown.

But overall, it's really pointless to debate over why one series got represented before the other one because Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest are both influential and important games to the RPG genre that I don't think anybody would take issue if it was the other way around between the two. Just like they wouldn't take issue if it was just Doom Slayer instead of Master Chief.

I'm not sure what you mean by my logic. Nobody is disputing why Banjo and Steve got in Smash (even though they happened to be Microsoft characters just like Chief and still got in over him). This is about why Master Chief is somehow considered "steep competition" for Doom Slayer. The fact remains that he doesn't have any of his games on Nintendo consoles, whereas Doom Slayer does. DOOM is also very iconic and important to video games and a character that not only fans wanted but the company too. It's hardly a competition, as Doom Slayer's chances appears to be pretty high.

I was there, people were discussing Black Mage as our Final Fantasy prospect if anyone. Cloud was not on the table because of assumptions about viability.

So was I but I was also aware of Final Fantasy's history on Nintendo consoles, as well as Cloud's appearances on them.

 

[Perkilator]

I was just thinking about how ARMS and Xenoblade 2 originally didn't get characters in the base game because of unfortunate timing, which was rectified in Fighters Pass Vol. 2. While I'm glad it was rectified at all, I also wish they could've either

• A). Held off all ARMS and XC2 content for the Fighters Passes, or
• B). Given the base game another year of dev time so that, at the very least, ARMS and XC2 aren't screwed over by timing and get characters in the base game (and maybe throw in at least one more character for good measure?)

 

[Louie G.]

The fact remains that he doesn't have any of his games on Nintendo consoles, whereas Doom Slayer does. DOOM is also very iconic and important to video games and a character that not only fans wanted but the company too. It's hardly a competition, as Doom Slayer's chances appears to be pretty high.

Best of luck to you then

I think Crash is more likely than Master chief.

I personally don't think Crash will happen but that's a whole can of worms and really boils down to gut feelings that I don't have any real justification for. What I will say is that Crash's future is a little strange and I'm curious what is coming next for the guy, and if this enthusiasm around him will continue as strongly as it did around 2017-2019. That's one of those unknowns that we're just gonna have to wait and see about over the next few years leading up.

 

[SPEN18]

I was just thinking about how ARMS and Xenoblade 2 originally didn't get characters in the base game because of unfortunate timing, which was rectified in Fighters Pass Vol. 2. While I'm glad it was rectified at all, I also wish they could've either

• A). Held off all ARMS and XC2 content for the Fighters Passes, or
• B). Given the base game another year of dev time so that, at the very least, ARMS and XC2 aren't screwed over by timing and get characters in the base game (and maybe throw in at least one more character for good measure?)

Why would A be a good thing?

I do think base Ult could have benefitted from more dev time, though.

 

[Geno Boost]

The reason why I find master Chef less likely than crash and doomguy in smash because the main audience of smash are Japanese players and they are more likely to recognize crash and doomguy rather than master Chef who is exclusive to a console that only 1% or less of Japanese gamers owns
Both crash and doom are multi console and they don’t suffer of lacking Japanese audience

 

[Gengar84]

My personal most wanted Microsoft characters are the Battletoads, Fulgore, Illidan, and Kerrigan. I have no idea if any of them are popular at all in Japan but I feel the RARE characters have a strong Nintendo histories and the Blizzard characters are iconic to gaming in general. Illidan has the same problem as Master Chief in that neither WarCraft nor Halo have ever had a game on a Nintendo Console. Kerrigan is covered thanks to StarCraft 64.

 

[Ivander]

The reason why I find master Chef less likely than crash and doomguy in smash because the main audience of smash are Japanese players and they are more likely to recognize crash and doomguy rather than master Chef who is exclusive to a console that only 1% or less of Japanese gamers owns
Both crash and doom are multi console and they don’t suffer of lacking Japanese audience

When even large gaming sites like IGN and Gamespot made an article about the major disappointment of Japanese fans when they learned Master Chief was getting a new Seiyuu/JP voice actor for Halo 4, that should be a sign that the Halo JP fanbase is much larger than it looks if it managed to get the attention of international gaming sites.
Also nowadays, the Halo games are also on PC and PC gaming is certainly not unknown to Japan.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Halo is one of those IP's that's so significant that its known to fans that haven't even played it. Even in Japan, I suspect the series' status as the de facto Xbox franchise is pretty well established.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I was just thinking about how ARMS and Xenoblade 2 originally didn't get characters in the base game because of unfortunate timing, which was rectified in Fighters Pass Vol. 2. While I'm glad it was rectified at all, I also wish they could've either

• A). Held off all ARMS and XC2 content for the Fighters Passes, or
• B). Given the base game another year of dev time so that, at the very least, ARMS and XC2 aren't screwed over by timing and get characters in the base game (and maybe throw in at least one more character for good measure?)

I don't think B) is very realistic tbh. You can't just delay a game to add more content, they have budget and deadline to respect. And either way, if the game was delayed of a year to make room for Arms and Xenoblade 2 rep, well now other game like Torna or Labo man would be srew by timing. And if you delay the game again to add Adam and Labo man, then Astral chain and Ring fit would be screw by timing. It's just a never ending cycle, new game will always release and unless they turn Smash into a yearly franchise well there's always a few games that will be unlucky with their release timing.

 

[Jave]

well there might be something pleasing about having a scottish character in the game

I agree, Scrooge McDuck would be really fun.

 

[Opossum]

By what I've been told, it's based on an actual area that's around the border between England and Scotland, so she would be half and half.

Postwick is close to the border, yeah, though as far as like, Actually Scotland, that's the Crown Tundra, which is pretty explicitly based on the Scottish Highlands.

 

[Laniv]

With regards to Scottish characters... The Luminary is from Fantasy Scotland, does he count?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Was Angus from Kasumi Ninja already mentioned?

 

[DarthEnderX]

After a lengthy conversation on a Discord I'm in, I am now convinced that our next Microsoft rep needs to be King Graham from King's Quest and if it's anyone else I will punch a hole through a wall

King's Quest is my childhood.

 

[RodNutTakin]

In between the Puyo Puyo producer saying he likes the idea of Arle in Smash and a new Madou Monogatari game being made, I think her chances are legitimately good.

My biggest line of thought besides what you mention is that in terms of Sega properties, everything else not from Sonic that they have either hasn't had a serious push by fans for Smash or is pretty much buried in their vault.
Unless Sakurai has feverent worship for something like Total War or Phantasy Star Online like he did with P5, I doubt there's much competition for Arle here.

 

[Louie G.]

My biggest line of thought besides what you mention is that in terms of Sega properties, everything else not from Sonic that they have either hasn't had a serious push by fans for Smash or is pretty much buried in their vault.
Unless Sakurai has feverent worship for something like Total War or Phantasy Star Online like he did with P5, I doubt there's much competition for Arle here.

Well, there is Yakuza, but that has its own collection of unique obstacles. I think it's worth including in the conversation but I don't particularly expect it to happen. Shin Megami Tensei is also an option (I honestly wish we got this before Joker) then of course you've got the possibility of adding onto Sonic, which is kind of an inevitability at some point or another IMO. Unfortunately once you get to the likes of NiGHTS or Jet Set Radio, we've lost the plot a little bit. It's a shame that some of Sega's most colorful and inventive series don't have much of a case to be made.

But Puyo Puyo definitely has a lot in its corner. Puyo Tsuu was one of the biggest JP arcade games of its time right alongside SFII, it's a monumentally important puzzle game and the series is somewhat of a phenomenon overseas. One of my favorite fun facts, did you guys know Puyo was supposed to have an entire theme park in the 90s? It was that big a deal!! I'm still a little bit shocked that we didn't even get a little spirit event or something.

The only issue is how hesitant Sega has been to acknowledge the series here, they're a little wishy washy. We aren't getting the gacha, we didn't get Puyo Chronicle (probably because it was so late in the 3DS lifespan). A Puyo item was left out of the localized version of Sega All Stars Racing. But we got Puyo Tetris 2 a couple days before Japan did? Make up your mind Sega!