Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Kirbeh]

How does this explain their confidence in companies like Level 5 and Nihon Falcom? I understand Koei Tecmo but them? I'm almost certain fans would be more familiar with ASW games than theirs and I don't even mean just the license games. So the niche reason definitely can't be the reason why.

Legacy is a very important thing to take into account. Guilty Gear may not be a household name like Street Fighter but it is a big influence in its own way, being the primary example of an "anime fighter" and if people are not that confident in Mortal Kombat getting in, it does seems like the next best thing. But fighting games are pretty big thanks to series like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Tekken, so I'm certain some people know of Guilty Gear, even if they haven't played it.

As for the beat'em ups, they've made quite a resurgence in recent years, with River City being a noticeable part of that resurgence. Its recognitions has grown a lot over the years. And while it may not seem like it today, Double Dragon was almost as big as Mario and Street Fighter back in the day. It pretty much was a household name in the beat'em up genre. Heck, even today, I don't think a lot of people will be that clueless about what Double Dragon is.

But of course, if there's anything people do know about River City and Double Dragon, it's how they set the standards for the beat'em up genre itself. So if you put that together, along with everything else I just said, how can anybody lack so much confidence in their chances? Especially when there's ASW content in Smash with the River City spirits.

I don't have a problem with people being confident in companies like Level 5 and Nihon Falcom but Arc System Works has too many heavy hitters of their own to not be confident in them too.

I mean it also depends on who you're referring to. The casual audience I'm referring to definitely doesn't know Level 5 or Falcom either.

Outside of a handful of users on Smashboards itself I don't see many people who are confident in their chances, let alone discussing them.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Woah! Louie G. Welcome back!

 

[Louie G.]

Woah! Louie G. Welcome back!

Hey dude!! Good to see some familiar faces still lurking about, just been compelled to talk Smash again and wanted to stop by. Hope everything is well.

Also apparently I hit the 10 year milestone for this account a few months ago? Time flies!

 

[chocolatejr9]

Hey dude!! Good to see some familiar faces still lurking about, just been compelled to talk Smash again and wanted to stop by. Hope everything is well.

It DOES feel like a few older faces are coming back around. Wonder if the "Switch 2" rumors have anything to do with it...

 

[Noipoi]

It DOES feel like a few older faces are coming back around. Wonder if the "Switch 2" rumors have anything to do with it...

As soon as the Switch 2 is announced speculation for the next Smash is really gonna pop off.

 

[Speed Weed]

While I have no comment on their chances, I'll just say that a Falcom character would be awesome

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Falcom are the legend of heroes guys right? Or is that someone else.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I think the Level 5 confidence is mostly becuase they have already a huge relationship with Nintendo and while this isn't a necessity, it definitely help their case a lot even if their game are a bit more niche. Their biggest franchise, Layton, is pretty much Nintendo exclusives aside from a few ios/android ports, and Yokai watch was also Nintendo exclusive for a very long time before ps4 got Yokai watch 4. Even if you look at their future games, Fantasy life i is Switch exclusive, and Decapolice, while not exclusive, was heavily marketed on Nintendo direct to the point that I saw many people not knowing that it's releasing on Playstation.

Falcom is a bit different. This might sound silly, but I just have a gut feeling that Trails would be the type of franchise that Sakurai would love to add in Smash considering is love for Jrpg. I would also argue that Falcom is in a situation very similar to SNK: both had a huge impact on their respective genre (fighting and Jrpg), but got overshadow by bigger publisher with more budget (such as Capcom or Square enix). So both are pretty much stuck to do lower budget game compared to the competition (like KoF obviously not having the budget of SF, Tekken or MK, and Trails obviously not having the budget of FF, Tales of or Persona), but they both still managed to have fairly big dedicated fanbase that followed them through the year. So I think that since Terry addition, many Smash fans realise that there's room in the game to smaller franchise too, not just huge name like Cloud.

I can understand these being the reasons for it. Heck, I myself can also picture Falcom being another possible company for the same reasons you just mentioned.

It's just that Arc System Works is another major Japanese company that was left out twice when talking about new companies having characters in the roster and I find that strange considering the series that they own. I don't think it's because people think their games are niche. Just like with Trails, I can also picture River City being the type of series Sakurai would love to add to Smash, due to its own iconic status and popularity (pioneering beat'em ups and featuring the first 4-player fighting game).

 

[Perkilator]

Falcom are the legend of heroes guys right? Or is that someone else.

Yeah, the Legend of Heroes guys.

 

[Louie G.]

It DOES feel like a few older faces are coming back around. Wonder if the "Switch 2" rumors have anything to do with it...

Honestly just relapsed a bit (lol) because a friend and I started working on a mockup for where the series could go from this point forward. Got the gears turning again and I was curious if any discussion was still happening here... looks like it is!

A new console definitely means a new Smash eventually. Although since Sakurai's focus seems to be on his YouTube channel recently, I can't imagine the game is anything more than some ideas bouncing around in his head at the moment. For my sake I hope they hold out for a while longer because I worry about my ability to focus on work through a new speculation period LOL

Something I've been contemplating a lot though, on the topic of third parties, is the capacity to expand on the companies that have already proven themselves to be very lenient and whose series have essentially become part of the Smash family. I really feel like the future of Smash, one that balances your "hype" picks and exciting crossover potential with more reasonable grounded choices, lies in characters of a Chun-Li, Tails / Knuckes and Alucard caliber. Which personally I think is good - let's give some of those mainstay third party series their Melee / Brawl and knock out the essentials.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Something I've been contemplating a lot though, on the topic of third parties, is the capacity to expand on the companies that have already proven themselves to be very lenient and whose series have essentially become part of the Smash family. I really feel like the future of Smash, one that balances your "hype" picks and exciting crossover potential with more reasonable grounded choices, lies in characters of a Chun-Li, Tails / Knuckes and Alucard caliber. Which personally I think is good - let's give some of those mainstay third party series their Melee / Brawl and knock out the essentials.

I could see Sonic getting a second character that's somewhere between Chrom and Isabelle in terms of effort, while another Sega property is introduced as DLC (hopefully the one that's your profile pic lol). Though for Capcom I'd rather Mega Man get a second character from one of the non-Classic subseries (preferably Zero from MMX in particular) over yet even more Street Fighter II celebration, and I honestly don't want Alucard, at least not before a couple of Konami's other series--though I'd be up for taking the Belmonts and pulling a Hero situation where multiple of them occupy a single slot as alts for each other (at least, if they're going to stick to Richter playing identically to Simon). Trevor and Julius would be my picks for Belmont alts.
Generally while I agree that it'd be neat to expand the current guest series, I'm more someone who wants to see things expand in terms of what each company has in the game IP-wise.

(On the subject of alts and alt costumes--certain alts for characters having unique victory poses in the next game, yea or nay?)

 

[Jave]

It DOES feel like a few older faces are coming back around. Wonder if the "Switch 2" rumors have anything to do with it...

For me it was straight up Sakurai saying "I don't envision Smash Bros. being made without me being involved."

This definitely makes me think the next Smash Bros. is already in a certain state of development.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think Falcom gets less attention in the Smash scene because while they're stuff is by no means obscure and is quite popular/beloved within Japan as well as JRPG circles, their output hasn't quite penetrated the consciousness of Western (non RPG) fans as much as other series in the genre. Even someone that doesn't really play role playing titles is somewhat familiar with the various franchises of Square Enix, Sega/Atlus, and others. Legends of Heroes (and to a lesser degree Y's because of its long history) I suspect are just outside the osmosis bubble for certain fans to the point where they're (often unfairly) forgotten about with character representation.

Its not too dissimilar to stuff like Namco's Tales series which is a clearly successful IP that is also prone to being overlooked by some in the West simply because the gaming culture dice roll hasn't rendered it with the same kind of recognition to that audience that others have gotten.

 

[dream1ng]

I feel like this point is rather irrelevant to the case honestly. Most people in the general consensus couldn’t tell you who the hell Terry was, to the point that Sakurai did a history lesson on SNK, but that doesn’t detract from the importance of the character or the Company.

Terry isn't going to help here. Using SNK as a parallel only proves Falcom could get in, which I never disputed. However, your argument was that Falcom was nearly a shoo-in with KT. But, SNK was the antithesis of a shoo-in, they were Ultimate's biggest dark horse company-wise.

You're using Terry as evidence that a company with this similarity will be something he never was. No one should've called SNK a near shoo-in.

More over, nothing about "but Terry" helps Falcom specifically, it's just attempting to widen the gates of how a lower key company's place in the line of succession could be, apparently, nearly inevitable. I don't see what's stopping options like ASW and Level-5 from fitting as well, as I'll touch on.

In fact, I think most (or at least, many more) gamers probably could identify Layton. And yet I think calling Level-5 nearly a shoo-in would likewise be rash.

Well the conversation was originally about new companies though. Sure, the developers already present in the game have a bunch of legendary franchises but like said before if there’s a NEW company I feel like Falcom is at the top of the list.

I understand, but the basis of inclusion isn't usually to include the company, it's to include the series/character. Thus the lineup of the company informs their likelihood. Like, if we get Ryu Hayabusa, it will probably be to include Ryu Hayabusa/Ninja Gaiden, not to include KT.

So while none of those series I listed were from new companies, being bigger RPGs, most of whom have actually popular requests complicates things for Falcom if they select character/series based on, y'know... the character/series. Which is how I'm viewing it, as the inverse is lending more credence to a singular exception. Like, analysis of ASW's chances inherently necessitates comparing Guilty Gear to other fighting game franchises.

Plus, Terry represents two SNK series, with one of those series (the bigger one) representing many other SNK series as well, so SNK being a package is a little more founded than other companies. Like for Falcom, it would likely be one series, not... all of them.

With respect to both Level-5 and ASW, Falcom is legendary in Japan. It’s one of the oldest developers still in business starting up in 1981. They’ve always been extremely successful in Japan and now they’re starting to branch their way into America with both the Ys games and Trails of Cold Steel doing pretty well in the last few years. If there’s a company that I could see Nintendo wanting to improve their relationship with I do believe Falcom is the move.

And with respect to Falcom, they don't do so great outside Japan, whereas ASW and Level-5 have series that have hit and are much more identifiable, which is pretty important for Smash. Moreover, both those companies also have IPs popular in Japan as well. Much much more popular, in terms of Level-5, and just as storied, in terms of ASW (given they own the Technos stuff). Though again, I hardly think either of these are near to guarantees either.

What sets Falcom apart may be enough for an inclusion, but... it really isn't enough to be a near shoo-in. Like, this isn't Dragon Quest, it's Ys.

 

[Louie G.]

I could see Sonic getting a second character that's somewhere between Chrom and Isabelle in terms of effort, while another Sega property is introduced as DLC (hopefully the one that's your profile pic lol).

Haha, fingers crossed! I'm glad that Arle seems to have a good amount of support moving ahead, I really think Puyo is the most obvious step forward for Sega unless mayyybe they want to dip into Megami Tensei proper. Excluding more Sonic, I mean.

I'd rather Mega Man get a second character from one of the non-Classic subseries (preferably Zero from MMX in particular) over yet even more Street Fighter II celebration

I think Zero would be great, although I'm looking at Chun-Li like... she is maybe the single most important video game character, period, missing from the game right now. Arguably the most prestigious female video game character of all time and essentially the co-lead of Street Fighter next to Ryu. In nearly every other crossover, she's right there next to him. I don't think it's a contest but there are very few options left who are quite as universal. Not saying this to convince you to WANT her but I do think she might be the biggest no-brainer addition right now.

And god willing she would still be able to offer more content variety than what Ryu and Ken have thus far. Most obvious first step is at least giving her the SF Alpha alternate costume, maybe they can pull a China stage from one of the later titles. I think it's a bit unfair to label her as simply SFII celebration when she's a prominent force in every single game, so she doesn't need to be limited to content from her first appearance. As long as they use her as an excuse to finally extend beyond what we've got (which yes, we desperately need, SF is so much more than we see in Smash right now - no Third Strike music??? Come on).

(On the subject of alts and alt costumes--certain alts for characters having unique victory poses in the next game, yea or nay?)

I don't see why not, especially in the case of characters like Alph or the Koopalings. But even certain costumes like Mario's wedding outfit might offer some fun opportunities, I'm definitely game for it.

 

[Sucumbio]

Did anyone mention Bioware or EA in the recent Western 3rd party prospects? My wife just started playing the Mass Effect series and now I want Commander Shepard lol.

 

[SPEN18]

Alright folks, we've already got 2 Marios, 3 Links, etc. I'm gonna need a second (solo) Jr. moveset next game with this as an install.

Spoiler

View attachment 379508

Spoiler: Mario Wonder

Actually, though, I'd like to ask the thread how this appearance impacts Bowser Jr in Smash.
For example, it's been an interesting topic before debating the relative priorities of Rosalina and Jr. I think most people thought Rosa was squarely ahead of Jr but now in Wonder Rosa is MIA afaik while Jr is relatively prominent. Is Rosa still ahead? I would guess she probably still is since she's still in quite a bit of other stuff but idk. I mean, in the end I don't expect either character to be cut but it's an interesting exercise to me to compare these two specifically.
Also, aside from comparing him to Rosa, how does this in a vacuum affect Jr's chances of returning (if at all)? Do you think he would get this new form incorporated at all?

 

[dream1ng]

I think Falcom gets less attention in the Smash scene because while they're stuff is by no means obscure and is quite popular/beloved within Japan as well as JRPG circles, their hasn't quite penetrated the consciousness of Western (non RPG) fans as much as other series in the genre. Even someone that doesn't really play role playing titles is somewhat familiar with the various franchises of Square Enix, Sega/Atlus, and others. Legends of Heroes (and to a lesser degree Y's because of its long history) I suspect are just outside the osmosis bubble for certain fans to the point where they're (often unfairly) forgotten about with character representation.

Its not too dissimilar to stuff like Namco's Tales series which is a clearly successful IP that is also prone to being overlooked by some in the West simply because the gaming culture dice roll hasn't rendered it with the same kind of recognition to that audience that others have gotten.

The west's familiarity and affinity for a character seems like it inversely correlates well with "anime JRPG swordie" complaints lol

Hoes was mad about DQ, but seemed pretty happy about Sephiroth and Sora, who were added when the count was only higher. I suspect a Falcom character would get this pretty bad, because a lot of people would be less familiar with them, and thus judging them more on surface stuff. Meanwhile in the sliding scale, I think a non-Lloyd Tales character would get it next worse, then Lloyd (guessing Nahobino would be around here too), and then two characters who seem more exempt than not, being Crono and 2B. Those two are generally regarded fairly highly in the west, and are pretty well known.

Course this is just for third-parties. First-parties are also affected by promotion and existing series representation.

 

[Ivander]

Meanwhile in the sliding scale, I think a non-Lloyd Tales character would get it next worse, then Lloyd (guessing Nahobino would be around here too),

Course this is just for third-parties. First-parties are also affected by promotion and existing series representation.

Yuri I would put close to Lloyd, as Yuri and Tales of Vesperia are popular among Tales fans. It was not only the 2nd highest selling Xbox 360 game overall in Japan(behind Star Ocean The Last Hope), but while it was released in the West on Xbox 360, it's PS3 version was much like Xenoblade, Last Story and Pandora's Tower in that the PS3 edition was a very highly requested game to be localized.
In terms of Smash Bros. fans or people who know characters through Smash Bros speculation, probably behind Lloyd, since Lloyd is the more pushed character since Brawl/Smash 4, but Yuri wouldn't be a Hero situation, since Yuri is decently discussed among the Smash community, especially when discussing his huge popularity in Japan.

 

[RileyXY1]

For the next Japanese companies, I also think Arc System Works is likely too.

As for Western companies, I can definitely picture another Microsoft rep. Maybe something from Bethesda like DOOM.

I'm not really expecting any FPS rep due to the genre's lack of prominence in the Japanese market. If we get a Bethesda rep (which I think is unlikely) I'm thinking that they'll instead go for the Dragonborn from Skyrim.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I'm not really expecting any FPS rep due to the genre's lack of prominence in the Japanese market. If we get a Bethesda rep (which I think is unlikely) I'm thinking that they'll instead go for the Dragonborn from Skyrim.

DOOM has a fanbase in Japan and there's already a Doom Slayer Mii costume in Smash, giving it further exposure to the Smash and Japanese fanbase. Plus, Sakurai is well-aware of the series legacy and significance to video games. So there wouldn't be any harm in them taking it a step further with a playable rep.

 

[RileyXY1]

DOOM has a fanbase in Japan and there's already a Doom Slayer Mii costume in Smash, giving it further exposure to the Smash and Japanese fanbase. Plus, Sakurai is well-aware of the series legacy and significance to video games. So there wouldn't be any harm in them taking it a step further with a playable rep.

It's legacy is actually misappropriated and it actually belongs to Wolfenstein 3D, but Sakurai's not gonna add BJ to the game because he probably wouldn't want to have literal Nazi imagery in the game.

 

[dream1ng]

Yuri I would put close to Lloyd, as Yuri and Tales of Vesperia are popular among Tales fans. It was not only the 2nd highest selling Xbox 360 game overall in Japan(behind Star Ocean The Last Hope), but while it was released in the West on Xbox 360, it's PS3 version was much like Xenoblade, Last Story and Pandora's Tower in that the PS3 edition was a very highly requested game to be localized.
In terms of Smash Bros. fans or people who know characters through Smash Bros speculation, probably behind Lloyd, since Lloyd is the more pushed character since Brawl/Smash 4, but Yuri wouldn't be a Hero situation, since Yuri is decently discussed among the Smash community, especially when discussing his huge popularity in Japan.

If Yuri was decently discussed among the Smash community we'd have spent a decent amount of time discussing him. He's not really on western polls, his thread wasn't big, he's not a regular point of discussion - he's pretty much just raised as an alternative to Lloyd because of Japan.

But my post was about the west. If the most time spent discussing him is discussing his Japanese popularity, that's actually very close to a Hero situation (leaks aside) and clearly doesn't prevent complaints.

And it's cool if Yuri is popular in the Tales fanbase, but that's going to amount to a fraction of the total Smash crowd, even online. What more minimal "bleh too many anime swordies" upon getting an anime swordie indicates is positive reception among the crowd that might otherwise say those things; the neutral crowd. Not a JRPG's fanbase. It's not Tales fans saying it in the first place.

 

[Wonder Smash]

It's legacy is actually misappropriated and it actually belongs to Wolfenstein 3D, but Sakurai's not gonna add BJ to the game because he probably wouldn't want to have literal Nazi imagery in the game.

It actually belongs to both, seeing how DOOM had the much greater impact and even popularized online gaming.

There's really no disputing DOOM's significance to video games.

 

[dream1ng]

DOOM has a fanbase in Japan and there's already a Doom Slayer Mii costume in Smash, giving it further exposure to the Smash and Japanese fanbase. Plus, Sakurai is well-aware of the series legacy and significance to video games. So there wouldn't be any harm in them taking it a step further with a playable rep.

Doom has a fanbase in Japan, but it's a very small fanbase. The games don't sell well.

The character isn't out of the question, he has a lot of western support and it's a big, popular series, but Japan is doing him no favors.

Doom may be a seminal title in the influence of video games but they also want their characters to appeal to all their major markets, which is why lopsided popularity is not a benefit for anyone, no matter how it's angled. I suppose the harm, as they see it, is opting against a character that can appeal globally.

Also the Mii costume is no more likely to move the needle in the Japanese fanbase as the Gil or Goemon costume has moved the needle in the western fanbase, especially since Riley's suggestion also got a Mii costume, and is the more popular character there anyway. The Xbox 360 version of Skyrim, in Japan, has sold more than all SKUs of both recent Doom games. The Xbox version.

It's legacy is actually misappropriated and it actually belongs to Wolfenstein 3D

Doom is the one with the popularity and the cultural impact, that's what matters more for Smash.

Virtua Fighter pioneered the 3D fighter. We have Tekken.

Did anyone mention Bioware or EA in the recent Western 3rd party prospects? My wife just started playing the Mass Effect series and now I want Commander Shepard lol.

EA isn't raised too often, but when it is, Shepard usually seems like the foremost suggestion. Can't blame people, that'd probably be my choice too of the plausible candidates. However I can't deny The Sims being not only a real contender, but one that definitely seems like a Sakurai kinda pick.

Also worth mentioning are Dead Space, Plants vs. Zombies and Apex Legends, which has a very atypical, quite high amount of Japanese popularity for a western shooter. Though I've no idea of the Japanese popularity of any of these other series.

 

[Jave]

Haha, fingers crossed! I'm glad that Arle seems to have a good amount of support moving ahead, I really think Puyo is the most obvious step forward for Sega unless mayyybe they want to dip into Megami Tensei proper. Excluding more Sonic, I mean.

In between the Puyo Puyo producer saying he likes the idea of Arle in Smash and a new Madou Monogatari game being made, I think her chances are legitimately good.

 

[Wonder Smash]

- Japan is the 2nd largest market for Apex. One of reasons behind Switch ver. (Switch is big in Japan).

- Apex Legends Mobile to have a soft launch in next 3 to 4 months. Plan to launch in China once approved.

- Expand Apex Legends franchise + reach new audience with both.

— Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX) February 2, 2021

So Riley can stop spamming this FPS "lack of prominence in the Japanese market" stuff.

Doom has a fanbase in Japan, but it's a very small fanbase. The games don't sell well.

The character isn't out of the question, he has a lot of western support and it's a big, popular series, but Japan is doing him no favors.

Doom may be a seminal title in the influence of video games but they also want their characters to appeal to all their major markets, which is why lopsided popularity is not a benefit for anyone, no matter how it's angled. I suppose the harm, as they see it, is opting against a character that can appeal globally.

Also the Mii costume is no more likely to move the needle in the Japanese fanbase as the Gil or Goemon costume has moved the needle in the western fanbase, especially since Riley's suggestion also got a Mii costume, and is the more popular character there anyway. The Xbox 360 version of Skyrim, in Japan, has sold more than all SKUs of both recent Doom games. The Xbox version.

So overall, Doom Slayer has no real obstacles. He's iconic and very important to video games while also having exposure to the Japanese audience where he has a fanbase. Like I said, there's no real harm in adding him to the roster. He basically has everything he needs. Plus, let's not forget, the Doom Slayer MIi costume actually sold more than the Dragonborn Mii costume in Japan. So he's clearly more popular over there than you think.

 

[Louie G.]

I don’t wanna be that guy, but Doom Slayer has one Chief obstacle in my eyes who is equally… green.

If we end up getting more from Microsoft and Co, I’d be pretty shocked if Halo remained absent. Not the most popular thing in the world over there but has enough notoriety that people know what it is, and I recall Halo 3 having a moderately sized JP playerbase. I know this conversation stemmed from new companies to Smash but with Doomguy and FPS as a current topic I felt the need to point out that he does have some pretty steep competition here, even within his own immediate circle after the acquisition.

 

[Opossum]

I'm not really expecting any FPS rep due to the genre's lack of prominence in the Japanese market. If we get a Bethesda rep (which I think is unlikely) I'm thinking that they'll instead go for the Dragonborn from Skyrim.

Begging you to stop acting like it's still like, 2010. There are a lot of popular FPS games that have strong footholds in Japan, like Apex and Valorant, and even Overwatch at its peak. And DOOM specifically also has a foothold there, too.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I don’t wanna be that guy, but Doom Slayer has one Chief obstacle in my eyes who is equally… green.

If we end up getting more from Microsoft and Co, I’d be pretty shocked if Halo remained absent. Not the most popular thing in the world over there but has enough notoriety that people know what it is, and I recall Halo 3 having a moderately sized JP playerbase. I know this conversation stemmed from new companies to Smash but with Doomguy and FPS as a current topic I felt the need to point out that he does have some pretty steep competition here, even within his own immediate circle after the acquisition.

Master Chief still doesn't have any of his games on Nintendo consoles whereas Doom Slayer has his whole series on them. And no matter how big Halo is, that still doesn't change how big and important DOOM is. Also, he's bound to be a very unique character for the roster since he's a FPS character, something Smash doesn't have yet, so he really doesn't have that much competition. Plus, he seemingly has a foot-in-the-door with the Mii costume in Smash Ultimate.

 

[Kirbeh]

Spoiler: Mario Wonder

Actually, though, I'd like to ask the thread how this appearance impacts Bowser Jr in Smash.
For example, it's been an interesting topic before debating the relative priorities of Rosalina and Jr. I think most people thought Rosa was squarely ahead of Jr but now in Wonder Rosa is MIA afaik while Jr is relatively prominent. Is Rosa still ahead? I would guess she probably still is since she's still in quite a bit of other stuff but idk. I mean, in the end I don't expect either character to be cut but it's an interesting exercise to me to compare these two specifically.
Also, aside from comparing him to Rosa, how does this in a vacuum affect Jr's chances of returning (if at all)? Do you think he would get this new form incorporated at all?

Spoiler

Honestly I really don't know which of the two they'd prioritize if it really came down to one or the other. Both are fairly popular and continue to make regular appearances.

I still haven't gotten around to playing my copy of Wonder, so I don't know if they might've pulled a 3D World and made her a secret character. Assuming she's absent, I still don't think one game is going to hurt her chances very much if at all.

If Rosalina suddenly starts missing out on the party/kart/sports games that's when I'd start to worry.

Same goes for Jr. His more prominent appearance in Bowser's Fury and seemingly larger focus in Wonder serve to show he's still in a good spot.

As for the new form, I don't think it'd actually be used in Smash. So long as Jr. remains in the Clown Kart I don't see them adding any of his unique abilities. I guess they could potentially update the Final Smash, but otherwise I don't see it.

I want it, but I don't see it as likely.

 

[fogbadge]

i think you all forget we have and FPS rep in smash

 

[Swamp Sensei]

i think you all forget we have and FPS rep in smash

It's okay. They forgot about me too.

 

[dream1ng]

So overall, Doom Slayer has no real obstacles. He's iconic and very important to video games while also having exposure to the Japanese audience where he has a fanbase. Like I said, there's no real harm in adding him to the roster. He basically has everything he needs.

On the other hand, I bet we're set to get The Tower of Druaga any day now. Iconic character, beloved game, big series w/ multiple animes, highly influential on later games. I mean, it influenced ****ing Zelda and Dragon Quest, for god sakes. Sure, none of that happened here, but hey, we got the Mii costume. Hell, we got it twice. So we're all familiar, right? We're all Gil supporters now.

So yeah, Gil has no real obstacles.

Plus, let's not forget, the Doom Slayer MIi costume actually sold more than the Dragonborn Mii costume in Japan. So he's clearly more popular over there than you think.

I'm almost positive you're referring to that list of Mii costume sales which people thought was of all time but was actually based on recency, making it inadmissible for more than recent sales.

None of the all-time data has actually been disclosed, nor will it, past possible oblique references.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Trying to figure out just how much a Western or Japanese oriented selection will happen (outside the context of first party Nintendo ones) is tricky because to a degree Banjo-Kazooie and Hero are about as far as we've seen Smash go, and even then B-K was at least known to players in the East, and almost every single mainline DQ game was localized on top of selling decently well outside Japan. Worldwide appeal seems to be a fairly recurring element for third party selections a lot of the time and its hard to quantify if a Doom Slayer or a Reimu are beyond the point of practicality in that regard.

 

[DarthEnderX]

On the other hand, I bet we're set to get The Tower of Druaga any day now. Iconic character, beloved game, big series w/ multiple animes, highly influential on later games. I mean, it influenced ****ing Zelda and Dragon Quest, for god sakes. Sure, none of that happened here, but hey, we got the Mii costume. Hell, we got it twice. So we're all familiar, right? We're all Gil supporters now.

I know you're joking, but unlike Doom, Druaga isn't actually that beloved. It may have been successful in it's day and inspired other games, but even Japanese players acknowledge that's it's kind of a **** game.

Also, not really sure where you get that it influenced Dragon Quest. It's been widely stated that the Wizardry and Ultima games are the main inspirations of DQ.

and almost every single mainline DQ game was localized on top of selling decently well outside Japan.

...eventually.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

If anything I really REALLY want the next Smash to avoid jank bull**** as Hero's RNG spell menu and Steve's everything all in the name of "uniqueness" because it just makes the game even more chaotic than it should be.

I like it a lot when fighting game characters get their direct move set translated to Smash, as its wonderful and functional. What Steve does isn't anything I want them to ever replicate

At that point, you might as well want just another fighter than Smash Bros. That type of chaos is what makes the series stand out from the rest. It was always more party than a fighting game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

At that point, you might as well want just another fighter than Smash Bros. That type of chaos is what makes the series stand out from the rest. It was always more party than a fighting game.

The chaos is supposed to come from items and hazards, not characters being gimmickfests. In fact, part of Smash being a "simple party game that anyone can play" IS most of the characters being easy to understand.

 

[Wonder Smash]

On the other hand, I bet we're set to get The Tower of Druaga any day now. Iconic character, beloved game, big series w/ multiple animes, highly influential on later games. I mean, it influenced ****ing Zelda and Dragon Quest, for god sakes. Sure, none of that happened here, but hey, we got the Mii costume. Hell, we got it twice. So we're all familiar, right? We're all Gil supporters now.

So yeah, Gil has no real obstacles.

Except for one big problem; remember when you mentioned lopsided popularity? Well, unfortunately for The Tower of Druaga, it wasn't so popular when it got released outside of Japan. And yes, I am talking about the first game. The other games either didn't get released outside of Japan or didn't get much positive reception from anywhere.

So yeah, that is indeed a real obstacle.

I'm almost positive you're referring to that list of Mii costume sales which people thought was of all time but was actually based on recency, making it inadmissible for more than recent sales.

None of the all-time data has actually been disclosed, nor will it, past possible oblique references.

Seeing how the Doom Slayer Mii costume was released after the Dragonborn costume, that's still quite impressive.

Though either way, what we do know for sure that he was one of the top bought costumes in the game by Japanese fans, which he wouldn't have been at any point if they didn't care about Doom Slayer or the series at all.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel like the characters who got the Mii costume treatment in ultimate are first in line for consideration for the next games roster.

You know since the devs are aware people want them in.