Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

Who doesn’t love robot dinosaurs?

the enemies of the power rangers?

 

[Gengar84]

the enemies of the power rangers?

Good point lol. I suppose most of the humans in Horizon too.

 

[osby]

Yeah, i think Sony characters are off-limits.
A shame because Ratchet and Clank have near infinite moveset potential, we won't see Clank Zapper combos....a shame.

I also wonder if indie characters will ever become playable or would Nintendo only want characters from videogame companies, god knows.
I feel like a indie rep would be a good way to put a popular character like Cuphead, Zagreus, Sans, Reimu, Shantae or Shovel Knight for cheap, since they'll be easier to license than characters from videogame companies i assume.
Of course, i think only popular indies have a chance to be in Smash (even as mii costume/spirits), i doubt they're going to allow unknown indies.

Technically speaking, indie games can also be made by video game companies.

Indie developers like Supergiant Games and WayForward Technologies are still private companies, they are just not owned by bigger corporations. Even Touhou games, which are made by a single person, are developed by his company Team Shanghai Alice.

Aside from some games like Stardew Valley or Undertale, I don't think there are that many big, notable indie games that are not made by video game companies.

 

[Nekoo]

You know what?
You know what I suddenly feel will happens next game? A gut punch that I feel will happens for conservative smash fans?


I feel like we're absolutely going to get a Genshin Impact representation. Somehow. Whenever it will be base game or DLC. Moi Costume or whatnot spirit.

That game is too huge to dodge, it's popularity around the world is stupid and even more in Japan surprisingly.

I feel it's a when than if.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

You know what?
You know what I suddenly feel will happens next game? A gut punch that I feel will happens for conservative smash fans?


I feel like we're absolutely going to get a Genshin Impact representation. Somehow. Whenever it will be base game or DLC. Moi Costume or whatnot spirit.

That game is too huge to dodge, it's popularity around the world is stupid and even more in Japan surprisingly.

I feel it's a when than if.

I feel this way about Fortnite if Fortnite stays as popular as it is today.

 

[TheLamerGamer]

The main thing I don't understand about wanting cuts is that they shouldn't really impact newcomers that much. For Ultimate it did because they had to modernise every character that wasn't on Wii U, so it was like making a new character, but now that they have all of them in the most recent game, they can port most characters over fairly easily using the existing data as a basis. Besides, unless they completely change the game, I'm expecting the new game to be a natural progression of ultimate on a technical level, like ultimate was for 4, where it's a very similar engine with a lot of asset reuse, which would make it a lot easier.

For the record, this isn't me saying cuts are less likely, unless it's a port they're guaranteed, but instead saying that cutting a veteran in no way makes room for a newcomer.

Asking for cuts is just explicitly asking for less content, and that just feels weird. Like, even if you don't play as a character, plenty of people do, so having them there is a good thing no matter how you look at it.

For example, I absolutely do not care about Duck Hunt Duo. They're from a game that released decades before I was born, I don't enjoy their playstyle, and their design isn't very interesting. But I know other people do like them, and so I want them to be in the next game so those people are happy.

 

[TheQuester]

Technically speaking, indie games can also be made by video game companies.

Indie developers like Supergiant Games and WayForward Technologies are still private companies, they are just not owned by bigger corporations. Even Touhou games, which are made by a single person, are developed by his company Team Shanghai Alice.

Aside from some games like Stardew Valley or Undertale, I don't think there are that many big, notable indie games that are not made by video game companies.

Oh, i didn't know that.
Thanks for the info!

You know what?
You know what I suddenly feel will happens next game? A gut punch that I feel will happens for conservative smash fans?


I feel like we're absolutely going to get a Genshin Impact representation. Somehow. Whenever it will be base game or DLC. Moi Costume or whatnot spirit.

That game is too huge to dodge, it's popularity around the world is stupid and even more in Japan surprisingly.

I feel it's a when than if.

I've suggested a Genshin rep before and i think it would fit well in Smash.
But i think the lack of a Nintendo appareance hinders it's chances, we don't know if Nintendo is interested in including characters that are not in their platforms, so it's better to asume that characters/frnachises without a Nintendo apareance are unlikely, even for Mii Costumes or whatever replaces spirits.
We're also never got a rep from a live-service or online-only game, we have Warframe spirits, so we know they're not completely out of the question for minor representation, but for major representation is an unknown.
If they add a Genshin Impact rep in Smash 6, in the far future when people replay the game, people will be wondering what a Genshin Impact is, and find out they won't be able to play it because it's shut down, we don't know if this would be an issue for Sakurai or not.

I feel this way about Fortnite if Fortnite stays as popular as it is today.

I feel the same about Fortnite about begin live-service, we don't know if Sakurai wants to include major representation of those type of games because of the "issue" i said adove.
That said, Fortnite is in a Nintendo console, so that alone makes it more likely than Genshin.

 

[Nekoo]

I've suggested a Genshin rep before and i think it would fit well in Smash.
But i think the lack of a Nintendo appareance hinders it's chances, we don't know if Nintendo is interested in including characters that are not in their platforms, so it's better to asume that characters/frnachises without a Nintendo apareance are unlikely, even for Mii Costumes or whatever replaces spirits.
We're also never got a rep from a live-service or online-only game, we have Warframe spirits, so we know they're not completely out of the question for minor representation, but for major representation is an unknown.
If they add a Genshin Impact rep in Smash 6, in the far future when people replay the game, people will be wondering what a Genshin Impact is, and find out they won't be able to play it because it's shut down, we don't know if this would be an issue for Sakurai or not.

Thing is, Genshin is Planned for the switch (probably now moved for the next console) and from diverses sources, leaks and more, the only reasons the game hasn't been released yet is...
Sony.

Sony already was iffy with allowing the game on their platform WHILE allowing Cross-save and crossplay between it and PC.
Struck a deal and got Aloy in the game as (for now) the ONLY AND MOST RANDOM inclusion in the game for promotion of Zero Dawn (from others rumours, Hoyoverse wanted another character than her) and is still adamant to not allow any Cross-save / crossplay with Nintendo for this game.

We don't know why, since they allowed it with Minecraft and Fortnite. But from the echoes, Sony is the problem. And from Hoyoverse's CEO and devs recent claim a few months ago... Genshin is still planned on the switch/Nintendo console.

 

[osby]

Wasn't there supposed to be a Genshin Impact port for Switch?

If it's realized any time soon or if the next Nintendo console eventually gets it, I wouldn't pass by Smash to include something from it.

That being said, I really don't look forward to the debates that this would bring up lol

 

[Guynamednelson]

The main thing I don't understand about wanting cuts is that they shouldn't really impact newcomers that much

Ultimate was built directly off of Smash 4's assets and still struggled to include 6 unique newcomers in its base game. And if base Ultimate struggled with that, logically a game with over 20 more characters to bring back should too.

 

[Nekoo]

Ultimate was built directly off of Smash 4's assets and still struggled to include 6 unique newcomers in its base game. And if base Ultimate struggled with that, logically a game with over 20 more characters to bring back should too.

And smash 4 was build off from brawl itself.
And brawl was build off from Melee.

Like... directly. Heck a screenshot of Mario and Link from brawl on the punch-out stage was literally left over in smash 4....and 80% of the code was imported.

All smash game is basically built from the precedent.

Smash ultimate big workload comes from bringing all of the non-importable veterans back. A few newcomers...
AND REMAKING ALL OF THE STAGES for no reasons. No stage is a straight port. They're like...all remade.

 

[Ivander]

You know what?
You know what I suddenly feel will happens next game? A gut punch that I feel will happens for conservative smash fans?


I feel like we're absolutely going to get a Genshin Impact representation. Somehow. Whenever it will be base game or DLC. Moi Costume or whatnot spirit.

That game is too huge to dodge, it's popularity around the world is stupid and even more in Japan surprisingly.

I feel it's a when than if.

I'll see what happens.

I mean, there were alot of times when we thought Jonesy from Fortnite would happen during Pack 2(especially after Steve) and to our surprise, he did not. Genshin does feel like a when scenario, especially if it's popularity keeps up, but there's always a chance of it happening more later than we'd expect.

 

[osby]

AND REMAKING ALL OF THE STAGES for no reasons. No stage is a straight port. They're like...all remade.

I wouldn't say it was for no reason - it likely had something to do with the new stage morph mechanic, possibly along with others.

 

[Nekoo]

I wouldn't say it was for no reason - it likely had something to do with the new stage morph mechanic, possibly along with others.

I mean, yes.
But it was so people understand that it wasn't just making like 3 characters and Basta.

 

[Opossum]

People really underestimate the amount of work it takes to bring back veterans. Yes, it's less work to make a veteran than a newcomer...but the difference isn't as significant as some folks are implying.

It's not just Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

 

[TheQuester]

Thing is, Genshin is Planned for the switch (probably now moved for the next console) and from diverses sources, leaks and more, the only reasons the game hasn't been released yet is...
Sony.

Sony already was iffy with allowing the game on their platform WHILE allowing Cross-save and crossplay between it and PC.
Struck a deal and got Aloy in the game as (for now) the ONLY AND MOST RANDOM inclusion in the game for promotion of Zero Dawn (from others rumours, Hoyoverse wanted another character than her) and is still adamant to not allow any Cross-save / crossplay with Nintendo for this game.

We don't know why, since they allowed it with Minecraft and Fortnite. But from the echoes, Sony is the problem. And from Hoyoverse's CEO and devs recent claim a few months ago... Genshin is still planned on the switch/Nintendo console.

I didn't say it was impossible, just unlikely, i'm personally not expecting a Genshin rep, but i think a Genshin rep would be cool to see, so i'd be glad to be proven wrong.
I guess begin planned for the Switch could help it's chances, but even planned still means that it has not happened yet, so i still wouldn't count on it.

That said, i think it begin a live-service/online-only game it's the trickier part honestly, those type of inclusions could potentially age badly because they could shut down at any time, It's the reason i think even live-service/online-only games on the switch like Overwatch or Fortnite are not particulary likely.
It would be cool to preserve popular live-service/online-only games in Smash, but it could look awkward to have a rep from a game that's been shut down in the future.

 

[Nekoo]

People really underestimate the amount of work it takes to bring back veterans. Yes, it's less work to make a veteran than a newcomer...but the difference isn't as significant as some folks are implying.

It's not just Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V.

The code part. Like, the core of it, is 80% to 90% imported. CTRL+C to CTRL+V. Often even forgetting to remove mechanics and stuff from previous games that are not there anymore.
They just play with Value for damage/ knock back and hitboxes afterward.

It's actually jarring as someone who dwelled a bit in smash moding, as you can see the evolution in code from game to game.
And even more when it's a veterans, like let's say...Mario who get a new move, and said more is in the middle of the old code.

The heavy work for veterans comes in the visual aspect most of the time, which is still a very big part. But no way Jose they're not like 1/4 of the work of a new fighter.

That's why getting rework is something I don't expect. Not like a full blown rework. Move being slowly changed, one new here, one new there, yes.

But only the ultimate back from dead Veterans are 100% new codewise and seems to have been made with the philosophy of being "newcomers" than "imported"

 

[Swamp Sensei]

View attachment 377369

The code part. Like, the core of it, is 80% to 90% imported. CTRL+C to CTRL+V. Often even forgetting to remove mechanics and stuff from previous games that are not there anymore.
They just play with Value for damage/ knock back and hitboxes afterward.

It's actually jarring as someone who dwelled a bit in smash moding, as you can see the evolution in code from game to game.
And even more when it's a veterans, like let's say...Mario who get a new move, and said more is in the middle of the old code.

The heavy work for veterans comes in the visual aspect most of the time, which is still a very big part. But no way Jose they're not like 1/4 of the work of a new fighter.

That's why getting rework is something I don't expect. Not like a full blown rework. Move being slowly changed, one new here, one new there, yes.

But only the ultimate back from dead Veterans are 100% new codewise and seems to have been made with the philosophy of being "newcomers" than "imported"

What about balance changes, renders, animations and the like?

 

[Nekoo]

What about balance changes, renders, animations and the like?

Balance changes are where they tweak with the values of moves.
Animation are most of the time tweaked from game to games (they often even forget the animations from the previous games that goes unused)

But that's what I meant by "the visual part" that's usually where the big work for a Veteran comes in, Render, new models, Animations, SFX and such.

But it's still a far cry from making a new fighter.
It's an educated guess, and a good one I think from comparing brawl to 4 to ultimate's code and data. But a Veterans from game to game would be more akin of having the work load of an echo than full blown fighter.

 

[Opossum]

View attachment 377369

The code part. Like, the core of it, is 80% to 90% imported. CTRL+C to CTRL+V. Often even forgetting to remove mechanics and stuff from previous games that are not there anymore.
They just play with Value for damage/ knock back and hitboxes afterward.

It's actually jarring as someone who dwelled a bit in smash moding, as you can see the evolution in code from game to game.
And even more when it's a veterans, like let's say...Mario who get a new move, and said more is in the middle of the old code.

The heavy work for veterans comes in the visual aspect most of the time, which is still a very big part. But no way Jose they're not like 1/4 of the work of a new fighter.

That's why getting rework is something I don't expect. Not like a full blown rework. Move being slowly changed, one new here, one new there, yes.

But only the ultimate back from dead Veterans are 100% new codewise and seems to have been made with the philosophy of being "newcomers" than "imported"

And yet, lo and behold, bringing back all the veterans tanked Ultimate's base game newcomer count, to the point they couldn't even get Piranha Plant ready in time for launch. Curious how that works.

 

[Nekoo]

And yet, lo and behold, bringing back all the veterans tanked Ultimate's base game newcomer count, to the point they couldn't even get Piranha Plant ready in time for launch. Curious how that works.

It's like you missed the part where I say that the Veteran back from dead () are very much fully new and not imported at all code-wise having NOTHING back from their previous iterations (no leftover, nothing nada, or old codes) Which if you add Ult's newcomers ( )
Adds up for 18 characters with new codes, 19 if you add Piranah Plant like you made a point to show. I don't think that's a small workload suddenly thought. Especially on a 3 years timeframe Devtime while remaking all of the stages.

That's why they earn time by LITERALLY recycling all of the previouses games code for all Veteran and slowly tweaking them

 

[ZephyrZ]

Balance changes are where they tweak with the values of moves.

And testing. Lots and lots of testing.

 

[Nekoo]

And testing. Lots and lots of testing.

I still believe that the Skeleton crew of Fighter Pass 2 are troopers for making it happens but also the reason why this pass is the wonkiest in term of balance lmao

 

[fogbadge]

They do reuse old assets for the veterans. The code for gliding is still knocking about isn’t it?

 

[Nekoo]

They do reuse old assets for the veterans. The code for gliding is still knocking about isn’t it?

The code for gliding is still in. And their animations are still in.And codes for Slipping. Swimming from Brawl...and code for Pokeballs not in anymore, mentions of music's. Etc etc etc.

 

[Garteam]

I think mileage varies on how difficult animating veterans is. The more new animations are present, the more difficult a veteran is to recreate. Characters like in Smash for and in Ultimate are probably towards the upper end of time intensiveness, while Smash for's newcomers in Ultimate were likely not that time intensive beyond needing new effects for their animations.

I think it is worth noting that a lot of the 64, Melee, and Brawl cast had significant portions of their movesets subtly reanimated. ,, and are good examples of this. My guess is that everyone coming back again isn't feasible for the base game, but a good 50 or so unique veterans could return at the expense of not really being different from their Ultimate appearances from an animation standpoint.

 

[Opossum]

It's like you missed the part where I say that the Veteran back from dead () are very much fully new and not imported at all code-wise having NOTHING back from their previous iterations (no leftover, nothing nada, or old codes) Which if you add Ult's newcomers ( )
Adds up for 18 characters with new codes, 19 if you add Piranah Plant like you made a point to show. I don't think that's a small workload suddenly thought. Especially on a 3 years timeframe Devtime while remaking all of the stages.

That's why they earn time by LITERALLY recycling all of the previouses games code for all Veteran and slowly tweaking them

I didn't miss anything. Out of those who were previously cut, three are derivative characters (still removed from their source, but derivative, objectively, nonetheless), one (the Ice Climbers) reached a state of near completion on Wii U before being cut due to 3DS concerns (meaning it likely took significantly less to bring them back), and two more may have had the same situation happen, but lacks official confirmation backing it (Ivysaur and Squirtle). So Snake is the odd one out there.

And again, echo fighters are specifically made to be lower effort derivatives. And Piranha Plant couldn't even make the base game.

So we're left with...Inkling, Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, and Incineroar being fully unique, and Isabelle as a semiclone. That is a far lower count of base game unique newcomers than any other game in the franchise, objectively.

I get that you have an agenda to push about cuts never being a thing again for some reason, despite numerous official statements implying the contrary, but this is a ridiculous amount of goalpost moving.

 

[Guynamednelson]

They do reuse old assets for the veterans. The code for gliding is still knocking about isn’t it?

Yes, but we still weren't able to get more than 6 unique newcomers in a base game full of reused assets. If the Grinch Leak did turn out to be real, I'd be more confident in Ultimate Deluxe/EIH2 being able to have a decent amount of new content.

but guess what

we didn't get 5 more unique base game newcomers after Isabelle.

we only got 2.

one of which didn't finish development until a month and a half after Ultimate released

 

[fogbadge]

Yes, but we still weren't able to get more than 6 unique newcomers in a base game full of reused assets. If the Grinch Leak did turn out to be real, I'd be more confident in Ultimate Deluxe/EIH2 being able to have a decent amount of new content.

but guess what

we didn't get 5 more unique base game newcomers after Isabelle.

we only got 2.

one of which didn't finish development until a month and a half after Ultimate released

i don’t get your point?

 

[Nekoo]

I get that you have an agenda to push about cuts never being a thing again for some reason, despite numerous official statements implying the contrary, but this is a ridiculous amount of goalpost moving

My reason and """"agenda"""" is the same as always.
The same as pre-Smash 4 era and the same as pre-Ultimate era.
All cuts in the series happened for technical reasons and never "because they wanted it". We always find that they TRIED to bring them back during datamine, ever since brawl.

Brawl? Five cut

Smash 4? Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf and Icr Climber.
Five cuts. All of them beside wolf being technical issue, and Sakurai bringing back Roy, Lucas, Dr.Mario and Mewtwo

Yet people parade that next game will be like back to 55 or 60 characters when we're FAAAR from EVER doing that. There NEVER was any precedent or reasons to worry about a slaughter in the game. Yet every cycle, everyone panic that the next game will reduce the roster to like...20%.

Feel free to look at my post history, because even here, before ultimate, I was saying that the numbers of cut people expected made no sense back then

 

[Guynamednelson]

i don’t get your point?

That bringing back everyone still took away newcomer resources, even if those veterans had Smash 4/Pikachu/Link/Fox assets to reuse?

 

[CannonStreak]

My reason and """"agenda"""" is the same as always.
The same as pre-Smash 4 era and the same as pre-Ultimate era.
All cuts in the series happened for technical reasons and never "because they wanted it". We always find that they TRIED to bring them back during datamine, ever since brawl.

Brawl? Five cut

Smash 4? Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf and Icr Climber.
Five cuts. All of them beside wolf being technical issue, and Sakurai bringing back Roy, Lucas, Dr.Mario and Mewtwo

Yet people parade that next game will be like back to 55 or 60 characters when we're FAAAR from EVER doing that. There NEVER was any precedent or reasons to worry about a slaughter in the game. Yet every cycle, everyone panic that the next game will reduce the roster to like...20%.

Feel free to look at my post history, because even here, before ultimate, I was saying that the numbers of cut people expected made no sense back then

A technical issue for Wolf? What might that be?

 

[Nekoo]

A technical issue for Wolf? What might that be?

All of them beside wolf.
Aka, only wolf seemingly had no know issue to be back and didn't come back.

 

[CannonStreak]

All of them beside wolf.
Aka, only wolf seemingly had no know issue to be back and didn't come back.

Oh, okay. Gotcha. Thanks for explaining.

Though now that you said it, I swear I misread your post there.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

so what you’re saying is a jerk move to want any character removed? Cause everyone is someone’s favourite

WANTING removed, yes. That is absolutely 100% a jerk move in any context because you’re just actively wanting someone else to be disappointed. It’s really not hard to understand why that’s a jerk move.

SPECULATING the possibility is completely different. Brawl Era-Smash For Era Smash was not speculating it was wanting Snake removed and it was always the sole purpose that “it should’ve been insert who I want”.

 

[Nekoo]

WANTING removed, yes. That is absolutely 100% a jerk move and that’s not an easy thing to understand and thinking differently is close minded to say the least.

SPECULATING the possibility is completely different. Brawl Era-Smash For Era Smash was not speculating it was wanting Snake removed and it was always the sole purpose that “it should’ve been insert who I want”.

People wanting Roy/Expecting Roy to be cut when he made his comeback in Smash 4 before Ultimate is always funny.
Even better, it's always the FE characters that people expect to be cut

 

[CannonStreak]

WANTING removed, yes. That is absolutely 100% a jerk move and that’s not an easy thing to understand why.

SPECULATING the possibility is completely different. Brawl Era-Smash For Era Smash was not speculating it was wanting Snake removed and it was always the sole purpose that “it should’ve been insert who I want”.

I have to agree with what you said about wanting a character removed being a jerk move.

Even if there are reasons for a character to be removed, wanting them out is still low. It’s another thing to bully others who want a character back that could be removed. Sakurai does not go by fan logic or wants in terms of removing characters anyway, it seems.

 

[fogbadge]

That bringing back everyone still took away newcomer resources, even if those veterans had Smash 4/Pikachu/Link/Fox assets to reuse?

I know all that

WANTING removed, yes. That is absolutely 100% a jerk move in any context because you’re just actively wanting someone else to be disappointed. It’s really not hard to understand why that’s a jerk move.

SPECULATING the possibility is completely different. Brawl Era-Smash For Era Smash was not speculating it was wanting Snake removed and it was always the sole purpose that “it should’ve been insert who I want”.

Hmm we better support everyone to become playable as well otherwise it’s the same thing

 

[Opossum]

My reason and """"agenda"""" is the same as always.
The same as pre-Smash 4 era and the same as pre-Ultimate era.
All cuts in the series happened for technical reasons and never "because they wanted it". We always find that they TRIED to bring them back during datamine, ever since brawl.

Brawl? Five cut

Smash 4? Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Wolf and Icr Climber.
Five cuts. All of them beside wolf being technical issue, and Sakurai bringing back Roy, Lucas, Dr.Mario and Mewtwo

Yet people parade that next game will be like back to 55 or 60 characters when we're FAAAR from EVER doing that. There NEVER was any precedent or reasons to worry about a slaughter in the game. Yet every cycle, everyone panic that the next game will reduce the roster to like...20%.

Feel free to look at my post history, because even here, before ultimate, I was saying that the numbers of cut people expected made no sense back then

Do you think every game will just have more and more newcomers with no upward ceiling? Because that's completely infeasible.

55-60 seems to be the comfortable limit of what they're able to do for a base game. Ultimate had SEVERAL modes be cut to pull off Everyone Is Here, and only a few made it back through updates. Stage Builder, Home Run Contest, and the like? All updates, not base game. All Star Mode? Gone. Coin Battles? Gone. Break the Targets, or even Target Blast? Gone. Trophies? Too much work to make, and as such were made into Spirits to combine them with Events, essentially.

And now they would need to add in Piranha Plant, as well as the DLC newcomers on top of that, and that's before adding the sequel's selection of newcomers.

Base game Smash Ultimate was already very bare bones as far as modes go. What you're suggesting would be exponentially more so.

Like...yeah, Brawl and Smash 4 had fewer cuts. They also had MUCH smaller rosters in general in comparison to Ultimate.

 

[Garteam]

I really think people overestimate the risk of not getting certain third parties back next game. These characters would presumably be highly prioritized because they're massive names in the gaming sphere, they (generally) have popular movesets, and there is probably some contractual obligation to have them in the game once the rights are acquired. Most of it really comes down to whether the rights owners are willing to play ball and the vast majority of the companies seem to actively want their content in Smash.

People think Konami is a question mark because Snake was cut in Smash for, but that was when Konami's corporate leadership seemed unsure of the company's direction and there was a lot of tension regarding Metal Gear in particular due to Konami and Kojima's growing animosity throughout MGSV's development. The difference between them and the Konami that gave us a sea of Castlevania content, the return of Metal Gear, Bomberman as an assist trophy, and Goemon as a costume is night and day