Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

Great news for any Killer Instinct fans here. It looks like after five years since the game was last updated, the team is going back to improve online functionality, a major balance update, and more. I think this might be unprecedented for a game this old (it just celebrated its 10th anniversary). The game was featured at Evo as well. I think something like this was exactly what Killer Instinct needed to have a realistic shot at getting a character in Smash. No news yet if there will be additional content like more characters but it’s still pretty exciting.

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[Wonder Smash]

I wonder if Doom Slayer does get in, he'll come with Commander Keen content? Maybe a Mii costume?

Great news for any Killer Instinct fans here. It looks like after five years since the game was last updated, the team is going back to improve online functionality, a major balance update, and more. I think this might be unprecedented for a game this old (it just celebrated its 10th anniversary). The game was featured at Evo as well. I think something like this was exactly what Killer Instinct needed to have a realistic shot at getting a character in Smash. No news yet if there will be additional content like more characters but it’s still pretty exciting.

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It's good to see they're still doing something this game, even though it's strange they didn't just make a new one at this point.

Ah. Whatever. I'm curious to see what all they'll do just incase they do add more characters or something.

 

[dream1ng]

I wonder if Doom Slayer does get in, he'll come with Commander Keen content? Maybe a Mii costume?

I think the best to hope for there is a Getsu Fuma Den situation where they sneak a song in. Because Keen isn't exactly the level we usually get, even in costumes. And Bethesda has a lot of material that is at the level we usually get.

Plus that's without factoring in that the amount now owned by Microsoft might create a bottleneck in actually bringing things over to Smash. Insofar as one company not getting far more content than the others.

 

[Ivander]

I think the best to hope for there is a Getsu Fuma Den situation where they sneak a song in. Because Keen isn't exactly the level we usually get, even in costumes. And Bethesda has a lot of material that is at the level we usually get.

Does Commander Keen have a song in any of the Doom games? Cause part of the reason why Afterburner and Getsu Fuma Den got music was because those tracks were from the series' games that remixed them. Afterburner had a remixed song in Bayonetta and Getsu Fuma Den had a remixed song in Castlevania Harmony of Despair. If neither didn't, I doubt either would've gotten in the first place.

 

[dream1ng]

Does Commander Keen have a song in any of the Doom games? Cause part of the reason why Afterburner and Getsu Fuma Den got music was because those tracks were from the series' games that remixed them. Afterburner had a remixed song in Bayonetta and Getsu Fuma Den had a remixed song in Castlevania Harmony of Despair. If neither didn't, I doubt either would've gotten in the first place.

Yeah there's two songs from the Keen games in Eternal.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I think the best to hope for there is a Getsu Fuma Den situation where they sneak a song in. Because Keen isn't exactly the level we usually get, even in costumes. And Bethesda has a lot of material that is at the level we usually get.

Plus that's without factoring in that the amount now owned by Microsoft might create a bottleneck in actually bringing things over to Smash. Insofar as one company not getting far more content than the others.

Assuming spirits will be back, I can picture Commander Keen spirits too if nothing else.

It's just that with DOOM's connection to Wolfenstein and Commander Keen, there's good chance Doom Slayer can come with content from both of those series too.

 

[dream1ng]

Assuming spirits will be back, I can picture Commander Keen spirits too if nothing else.

It's just that with DOOM's connection to Wolfenstein and Commander Keen, there's good chance Doom Slayer can come with content from both of those series too.

With Keen being pretty niche and Nintendo probably not being eager to put Wolfenstein in Smash, I'd suggest, of the other id IPs, the likeliest to get some reference may be Quake.

But it's not like Persona came with SMT, Banjo came with any other Rare stuff, or Tekken came with SoulCalibur. I think there's a better chance what accompanies Doom is simply general Bethesda content.

But given it's under the Microsoft umbrella, they might not go crazy with the accompanying content given how much they may end up taking from MS.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Alright folks. I'm going to give a hot take, and I want you to convince me otherwise.

Let me preface this by saying...

• I love Pikmin.
• Olimar is a must have inclusion in Smash at this point. If he wasn't included in Brawl, he would have been a must have like Villager in Smash 4.
• I'm one of the whackos who thinks Olimar is fun to play as and fight against.
• Pikmin has grown significantly as a franchise and Pikmin 4 is a wild success. I expect a big bump in Pikmin content.
• I bought, played and beat Hey Pikmin. I don't want any accusations that I don't like the franchise.

Regardless I still maintain that...

Olimar is most likely going to be the only Pikmin character we ever get.

The way Olimar is designed encompasses pretty much the whole franchise. He perfectly encapsulates the feeling of Pikmin. While there are Pikmin types that go unused (Rock, Glow, Ice), I don't think they're major enough to warrant a brand new character. An echo of Olimar using those characters is possible but I still have two issues with that...

1. Echoes are meant to be easy, late minute additions, and Olimar is a notoriously difficult character to design and balance.
2. If they really wanted a Pikmin echo, they straight up shafted Alph (a perfect candidate) twice, when he was in a perfect position to be upgraded to an echo. (Alph got robbed.)

I also take issue with who a new character would even be. Most of the common suggestions are either too similar to Olimar to be a non echo (Louie, Alph, the new customizable captain) or are so minor that I don't think they'll ever be seriously considered (Plasm Wraith, Oatchi). I'm not going to be disappointed if Pikmin gets another character, but I don't think it will ever happen.

I think Pikmin is going to join Yoshi in the "healthy and thriving series that will always be represented by only one character" club.

 

[fogbadge]

(Rock, Ghost, Ice)

glow. you're thinking of pokemon types

 

[Swamp Sensei]

glow. you're thinking of pokemon types

Ah, my mistake.

 

[Perkilator]

Oh, by the way:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Wonder Smash]

With Keen being pretty niche and Nintendo probably not being eager to put Wolfenstein in Smash, I'd suggest, of the other id IPs, the likeliest to get some reference may be Quake.

But it's not like Persona came with SMT, Banjo came with any other Rare stuff, or Tekken came with SoulCalibur. I think there's a better chance what accompanies Doom is simply general Bethesda content.

But given it's under the Microsoft umbrella, they might not go crazy with the accompanying content given how much they may end up taking from MS.

The difference is SMT and Soul Calibur are both much larger and more significant series and also more independent from other series compared to Commander Keen. Also, Tekken and Soul Calibur, while both Namco fighting game series, are not...really all that connected. They both have Yoshimitsu but that's it. Same thing with Banjo and other Rare series.

Commander Keen, which as you say is pretty niche, kind of lives on through DOOM in some ways.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Great news for any Killer Instinct fans here. It looks like after five years since the game was last updated, the team is going back to improve online functionality, a major balance update, and more. I think this might be unprecedented for a game this old (it just celebrated its 10th anniversary). The game was featured at Evo as well. I think something like this was exactly what Killer Instinct needed to have a realistic shot at getting a character in Smash. No news yet if there will be additional content like more characters but it’s still pretty exciting.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

m.youtube.com

As much as this is cool, I don't think a balance update and better online seriously help KI case for Smash. I still think it has fair chance of getting in as the next big fighting games rep, but this update doesn't really change the franchise case imo. At this point a new game would help much more, maybe the plan is to slowly put the game back on the map with this update and announce a new game a bit later?

 

[Staarih]

I also take issue with who a new character would even be. Most of the common suggestions are either too similar to Olimar to be a non echo (Louie, Alph, the new customizable captain) or are so minor that I don't think they'll ever be seriously considered (Plasm Wraith, Oatchi). I'm not going to be disappointed if Pikmin gets another character, but I don't think it will ever happen.

I think Pikmin is going to join Yoshi in the "healthy and thriving series that will always be represented by only one character" club.

While I agree that Pikmin would do just well with Olimar as its sole rep, I kinda feel you're downplaying Oatchi a bit. While I think that people suggesting him as an actual fighter aren't actually too serious about it, I think Oatchi (and the space dogs in general I guess) have quite a heavy focus in Pikmin 4. You can control Oatchi separately as well and he has his own abilities too alongside the use of Pikmin.

But either way, Olimar is definitely a must at least.

 

[Gengar84]

As much as this is cool, I don't think a balance update and better online seriously help KI case for Smash. I still think it has fair chance of getting in as the next big fighting games rep, but this update doesn't really change the franchise case imo. At this point a new game would help much more, maybe the plan is to slowly put the game back on the map with this update and announce a new game a bit later?

Yeah, you might be right. Still, I think the news that the developers still care about the IP enough to do this can only be a good sign. I agree a remake would probably help even more. The fact that they said they’d share more later makes me hopeful. It would be cool if they eventually started giving us new characters again. With Microsoft’s acquisition of Activision/Blizzard, there are a ton of potential fighters that would be awesome. WarCraft, StarCraft, and Diablo would all be great candidates for some really cool fighters.

 

[Sucumbio]

I would echo the sentiment for Oatchi for playable. Him being an interesting addition mechanically and a quadruped to boot I'd be psyched actually. As for Alph I think him being an echo makes sense, I'm not quite sure why they didn't do it.

 

[Arcanir]

I would echo the sentiment for Oatchi for playable. Him being an interesting addition mechanically and a quadruped to boot I'd be psyched actually. As for Alph I think him being an echo makes sense, I'm not quite sure why they didn't do it.

He would've been too difficult for an Echo. The whole point of them is to be easy clones that can be created without much time and resources spent on things like balancing. Olimar and Pikmin is inherently a complex character as Swamp already pointed out and in Smash 4 in particular they already had to make changes for him to work with the game, so you can't as easily make an Echo out of them as you could Marth or Pit. As a result, Alph was sidelined for other Echo options that were easier to do.

 

[Perkilator]

He would've been too difficult for an Echo. The whole point of them is to be easy clones that can be created without much time and resources spent on things like balancing. Olimar and Pikmin is inherently a complex character as Swamp already pointed out and in Smash 4 in particular they already had to make changes for him to work with the game, so you can't as easily make an Echo out of them as you could Marth or Pit. As a result, Alph was sidelined for other Echo options that were easier to do.

I think a way to get around this would be to have Alph only use a single Rock Pikmin in lieu of three Pikmin and change some moves around to make Alph more of a beginner-friendly Olimar.

 

[Sucumbio]

He would've been too difficult for an Echo. The whole point of them is to be easy clones that can be created without much time and resources spent on things like balancing. Olimar and Pikmin is inherently a complex character as Swamp already pointed out and in Smash 4 in particular they already had to make changes for him to work with the game, so you can't as easily make an Echo out of them as you could Marth or Pit. As a result, Alph was sidelined for other Echo options that were easier to do.

Other than his face is he really so different? I haven't played the games really but since he's an alt costume couldn't they just do like they did with peach and daisy?

 

[fogbadge]

Other than his face is he really so different? I haven't played the games really but since he's an alt costume couldn't they just do like they did with peach and daisy?

in theory yes

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Other than his face is he really so different? I haven't played the games really but since he's an alt costume couldn't they just do like they did with peach and daisy?

I think he was talking about their Pikmin management gimmick, which had to be modified for Smash 4 due to Smash 3DS.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

shrug I dunno man. Like...5?

ok. I'll list them here and see what you think
Octoing (Inkling)
Gooigi (Luigi)
Louie/Brittney with Rock and Ice Pikmin instead of Purple and White (Olimar/Alph)
Noah with 2 alts of N (Shulk)
Metal Sonic, Blaze, or Surge (Sonic)

 

[chocolatejr9]

ok. I'll list them here and see what you think
Octoing (Inkling)
Gooigi (Luigi)
Louie/Brittney with Rock and Ice Pikmin instead of Purple and White (Olimar/Alph)
Noah (Shulk)
Metal Sonic, Blaze, or Surge (Sonic)

I'll give you points for the IDW acknowledgment, though it may be best to wait until Surge makes her game debut, just to be safe (though a leak for Sonic Forces: Speed Battle suggests we won't have to wait long).

 

[Sucumbio]

I think he was talking about their Pikmin management gimmick, which had to be modified for Smash 4 due to Smash 3DS.

Hmm well if that's the case for smash 4 that's cool but for ultimate what's the prevailing theory for their being an alt instead of an echo? And whatever that theory is, would it still hold water for the next game?

Btw this is only to gain an understanding of what's already happened so as to inform my opinions for the future. I personally hated that daisy was essentially a waste where they could have just as easily treated her like Alph with just being an alt costume. At least with Dark Samus her differences are more noticeable though barely in terms of moveset and moreso again focused on aesthetics.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

I'll give you points for the IDW acknowledgment, though it may be best to wait until Surge makes her game debut, just to be safe (though a leak for Sonic Forces: Speed Battle suggests we won't have to wait long).

She'll appear in the mobile games later this year thanks to the leak and lego Sonic basically confirmed it

 

[chocolatejr9]

She'll appear in the mobile games later this year thanks to the leak and lego Sonic basically confirmed it

Yeah, that's what I meant. Though didn't Classic Super Sonic already confirm it?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think it would be funny if they decided to include more Street fighter characters but they were just the other Ryu clones because of how easy they would be to implement.

 

[DarthEnderX]

ok. I'll list them here and see what you think
Octoing (Inkling)
Gooigi (Luigi)
Louie/Brittney with Rock and Ice Pikmin instead of Purple and White (Olimar/Alph)
Noah with 2 alts of N (Shulk)
Metal Sonic, Blaze, or Surge (Sonic)

11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]

Gimmie those villains.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Metal Sonic, Blaze, or Surge (Sonic)

Yeah, and Salvador Drainotto (a one-time character from the Mario cartoons) should be a skin for Luigi.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hmm well if that's the case for smash 4 that's cool but for ultimate what's the prevailing theory for their being an alt instead of an echo? And whatever that theory is, would it still hold water for the next game?

Btw this is only to gain an understanding of what's already happened so as to inform my opinions for the future. I personally hated that daisy was essentially a waste where they could have just as easily treated her like Alph with just being an alt costume. At least with Dark Samus her differences are more noticeable though barely in terms of moveset and moreso again focused on aesthetics.

Pikmin as a franchise was dormant where other ones had more active things(including Castlevania. Yes, the Netflix shows absolutely counts for the franchise) and ideas.

So the timing was also bad. Rock Pikmin was also the only new Pikmin of interest, and being a super heavyweight like Purple Pikmin also means that it's not as easy to make both stand out from each other. So to make Alph interesting, they first have to figure out how to make both Pikmin stand out from each other and then give Alph something that kind of makes him fun to bother with. He isn't in the same high popularity boat like Daisy was either, or Chrom, or Dark Samus. Or at the very least, Daisy was also just significantly easier to add with minor unique animations(with barely hurtbox differences. She doesn't play 1:1 with Peach, but it sure as hell feels like it).

Do keep in mind that the character is Pikmin & Captain. So the focus is on both. Captains are interchangeable, and Pikmin are not. So if one doesn't stand out, it's harder to justify the inclusion for that solely alone. Rock could've just been added to Olimar and call it a day. However, we now have new Pikmin thanks to Pikmin 4, so it's much easier to use the new ones to make a new character(not necessarily an Echo). There's a few too many Pikmin to keep it on Olimar alone too, for balance reasons, so they have an easier reason to justify the work done with new models, etc.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Yeah, and Salvador Drainotto (a one-time character from the Mario cartoons) should be a skin for Luigi.
View attachment 375637

You do realize that IDW is canon, right?

 

[HyperSomari64]

You do realize that IDW is canon, right?

IKR, but it would be funny if Smash included some of the weirdest parts of Nintendo's (and other companies) histories.

 

[fogbadge]

You do realize that IDW is canon, right?

im not sure sonic team do

 

[chocolatejr9]

im not sure sonic team do

Actually, they do. They hired a Lore Manager for this sort of thing, and he said they are.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think at most Surge would get a spirit, just like how Karin got a spirit or Ash got mentioned in trophy descriptions.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Nintendo should hire a Lore Manager for their franchises.
So we can't stop the longtime hurdle of Donkey Kong Junior being the dad of modern DK or modern DK himself.

I think at most Surge would get a spirit, just like how Karin got a spirit or Ash got mentioned in trophy descriptions.

Can't wait to see Bluster Kong having a small, teeny-weeny reference or Easter Egg lol.

 

[fogbadge]

Actually, they do. They hired a Lore Manager for this sort of thing, and he said they are.

is this the same lore master who never addressed the regenerating moon?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I wonder if including Advent children music was a Square enix idea or a Nintendo idea.

 

[chocolatejr9]

is this the same lore master who never addressed the regenerating moon?

No, I'm pretty sure this is a different guy. This whole "lore manager" thing was fairly recent.

 

[fogbadge]

I wonder if including Advent children music was a Square enix idea or a Nintendo idea.

a bit of both i imagine. didn't sak say he wanted to include it? and we know SE likes to bring it up when they can