Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ivander]

I wonder if including Advent children music was a Square enix idea or a Nintendo idea.

Considering how similar Sephiroth's trailer is to Advent Children's Cloud vs Sephiroth battle, I would not be surprised if Sakurai pitched the idea and Square and Nintendo agreed on it.

 

[dream1ng]

The difference is SMT and Soul Calibur are both much larger and more significant series and also more independent from other series compared to Commander Keen. Also, Tekken and Soul Calibur, while both Namco fighting game series, are not...really all that connected. They both have Yoshimitsu but that's it. Same thing with Banjo and other Rare series.

Commander Keen, which as you say is pretty niche, kind of lives on through DOOM in some ways.

It's a very strange argument to predicate the difference between them on factors that highlight why the series you're arguing against are likelier. Yeah, SMT and SoulCalibur are larger and more significant. Smash values that stuff more than oblique interconnectivity, given how little of it has transpired to inclusion.

And yet we've not even received anything from them. So I'd place your hopes for Keen at "would be lucky to get a reference" level.

 

[SPEN18]

No, I wouldn't be surprised if Pikmin stays at one rep at least for the time being. It could go to two, though.

In any case I don't think they're going to go through the effort to make Alph into anything more than he is at this point.

 

[Wonder Smash]

It's a very strange argument to predicate the difference between them on factors that highlight why the series you're arguing against are likelier. Yeah, SMT and SoulCalibur are larger and more significant. Smash values that stuff more than oblique interconnectivity, given how little of it has transpired to inclusion.

And yet we've not even received anything from them. So I'd place your hopes for Keen at "would be lucky to get a reference" level.

We didn't receive anything from those series but if we did, it most likely wouldn't be through another series because they're too big and independent for that. If anything, it just leaves open the possibility that they do get representation in Smash, it'll be a playable one and nothing less.

On the contrary, Commander Keen is much more niche and hasn't had a game in decades. All it's got is references in DOOM, in which it also has a shared universe with it. This is why I say it lives on through DOOM.

So this could be another Terry situation, in which Doom Slayer comes with content from games made by the same company. Though, maybe not the same extent with the music tracks but at least Commander Keen Mii costume could work.

 

[dream1ng]

We didn't receive anything from those series but if we did, it most likely wouldn't be through another series because they're too big and independent for that. If anything, it just leaves open the possibility that they do get representation in Smash, it'll be a playable one and nothing less.

Not really. Most third-party IPs in Smash aren't playable. Most are costumes or spirits.

Very few are what Keen would likely be, which is some reference within another IP's pack. Because... it's Keen, it's not gonna get more than that.

On the contrary, Commander Keen is much more niche and hasn't had a game in decades. All it's got is references in DOOM, in which it also has a shared universe with it. This is why I say it lives on through DOOM.

Those are just more reasons to expect very little.

Btw those other series also live in shared universes, but continued and are more successful. Maybe it makes them less likely to get something within the actual pack, but it makes them much more likely to actually get something.

So this could be another Terry situation, in which Doom Slayer comes with content from games made by the same company. Though, maybe not the same extent with the music tracks but at least Commander Keen Mii costume could work.

It makes little sense to argue Keen is niche and dormant so maybe it could get a Mii costume but SMT/SoulCalibur are bigger and more significant so they'll be playable or nothing... after having already got Doom Slayer, Dovahkiin and Vault Boy as Mii costumes. And characters like Dante and Monster Hunter and Lloyd and Travis and Altair and a bunch of characters who are big enough to be playable but didn't make it.

The costumes are every part a business as the rest of the DLC. That makes overlooking the two superordinates that id is subsidiary to for the sake of adding costumes like Keen pretty questionable. Which is one of the many major differences between this situation and SNK.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I would echo the sentiment for Oatchi for playable. Him being an interesting addition mechanically and a quadruped to boot I'd be psyched actually.

You fools! Look at Oatchi's leg count!

Does that look like four legs to you? Do not believe the propaganda - Oatchi is clearly a biped!

I get your point though I'm just being deliberately obtuse

 

[Wonder Smash]

Not really. Most third-party IPs in Smash aren't playable. Most are costumes or spirits.

Very few are what Keen would likely be, which is some reference within another IP's pack. Because... it's Keen, it's not gonna get more than that.

There are still a lot of third-party series that are not in Smash at all and for some of those that are, Mii costumes acted as consolation prizes for them.

Those are just more reasons to expect very little.

Btw those other series also live in shared universes, but continued and are more successful. Maybe it makes them less likely to get something within the actual pack, but it makes them much more likely to actually get something.

Do you mean SNK? Because if so, Ryo is also a Mii costume and Art of Fighting hasn't had a new game in decades either.

It makes little sense to argue Keen is niche and dormant so maybe it could get a Mii costume but SMT/SoulCalibur are bigger and more significant so they'll be playable or nothing... after having already got Doom Slayer, Dovahkiin and Vault Boy as Mii costumes. And characters like Dante and Monster Hunter and Lloyd and Travis and Altair and a bunch of characters who are big enough to be playable but didn't make it.

The costumes are every part a business as the rest of the DLC. That makes overlooking the two superordinates that id is subsidiary to for the sake of adding costumes like Keen pretty questionable. Which is one of the many major differences between this situation and SNK.

Looking at series like SMT and Soul Calibur and then a series like Commander Keen, I think it's pretty obvious which ones are more likely have a playable representation. Thinking they would all likely get the same treatment doesn't make any sense.

Also, you just never know. Some companies may feel that their series should have a playable representation or none at all. You look at Koei Tecmo and Arc System Works and realize that despite having a lot of major series, almost none of them are represented in Smash in anyway. Heck, in Koei Tecmo's case, none of them are. And as for ASW, I don't know the reason for that but I can't picture them looking at characters from major fighting game series being playable and then being satisfied with their own fighting game characters being just spirits or Mii costumes. I'm sure some companies would rather want more than that.

 

[osby]

You fools! Look at Oatchi's leg count!

Does that look like four legs to you? Do not believe the propaganda - Oatchi is clearly a biped!

I get your point though I'm just being deliberately obtuse

This animal stands on two legs!! Pokemon fans hate him!!

 

[fogbadge]

Does that look like four legs to you?

yes actually

 

[chocolatejr9]

You fools! Look at Oatchi's leg count!

Does that look like four legs to you? Do not believe the propaganda - Oatchi is clearly a biped!

I get your point though I'm just being deliberately obtuse

Then why do they insist on calling him a dog?

Checkmate.

 

[fogbadge]

Then why do they insist on calling him a dog?

Checkmate.

you don’t need four legs to be a dog

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that Young Link and Pichu should absolutely stay. Their fans had waited 17 years to see them back in Smash, and it would be just cruel to cut them again.

 

[Soy_Man]

I think that Young Link and Pichu should absolutely stay. Their fans had waited 17 years to see them back in Smash, and it would be just cruel to cut them again.

They'll be fine. I have a fondness for Young Link and would like him to stay, but I also understand that he probably doesn't have much priority, and also they don't owe anything to me in particular. If they don't have space for him in the next game I will simply get over it.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I think Young Link should stay if only to have a "rep" for classic Zelda, since normal link is fully in modern Zelda asthetic.

 

[RileyXY1]

I think Young Link should stay if only to have a "rep" for classic Zelda, since normal link is fully in modern Zelda asthetic.

This can be shown in Ultimate itself, with Young Link being the representative of classic Link, as shown by him representing the Triforce of Courage in the Sacred Land, him being in Pac-Man's Classic Mode route, and him being the puppet fighter for the Link (Legend of Zelda) Spirit, which is the Link from the OG Legend of Zelda game on the NES.

 

[Soy_Man]

I think Young Link should stay if only to have a "rep" for classic Zelda, since normal link is fully in modern Zelda asthetic.

Ultimate does this with Zelda and Ganondorf, which I like. I hope they continue doing that.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Yeah i really love what they did with Zelda in Ultimate where each character is puled from a different part of the franchise's history, though personally i would have prefered they keep Ganondorf's Twilight princess look, because Sheik already reps Ocarina of time so its weird to have two reps from that game.

 

[SPEN18]

I think that Young Link and Pichu should absolutely stay. Their fans had waited 17 years to see them back in Smash, and it would be just cruel to cut them again.

What about all the picks people have wanted since Melee who haven't made it in at all?
It needs to be said again and again that "but people will be disappointed if they're not there" can be applied to literally anybody. It is not specific to vets.

In the case of Pichu and YL in particular, I think that the vast majority of people accept that they are easily possible not to be back in a non-EiH scenario, which would likely dampen a lot of the disappointment.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Yeah i really love what they did with Zelda in Ultimate where each character is puled from a different part of the franchise's history, though personally i would have prefered they keep Ganondorf's Twilight princess look, because Sheik already reps Ocarina of time so its weird to have two reps from that game.

That makes sense.

 

[jamesster445]

Yeah i really love what they did with Zelda in Ultimate where each character is puled from a different part of the franchise's history, though personally i would have prefered they keep Ganondorf's Twilight princess look, because Sheik already reps Ocarina of time so its weird to have two reps from that game.

How would yall feel if the Smash team was allowed to make their own custom designs of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf similar to say Hyrule Warriors? Ultimate's decision to not base that cast is what honestly sparked this idea. Because I feel like always having to be based off a specific game shackled these characters in wierd ways in past games and even now where Link isnt allowed a hookshot simply because it doesnt exist in BOTW. And you can still have an alts reflecting their more canonical forms.

And considering that Shiek and Roy already do this, it's not like there isnt a precedent.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Oh hey, we hit 700 pages. Neat!

 

[MrMcNuts]

To the few Rayman fans that hang out here still we finally reached 10k followers on the Twitter side of things, more than any smash campaign has ever reached over there so I had to commission my pal Mark Productions for a smashified piece I figured I'd share

Glad to see the lad has cemented himself as one of the big requests

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So, what do y'all think about Zero Suit Samus?

Even if she's unnecessary, I think she's here to stay.

 

[Pupp135]

While I don’t think that I would’ve come up with her as a playable fighter, Zero Suit Samus is fun to play as, and I’d be cool with her staying. Like with Captain Falcon, Ness, Sheik, Falco, Marth (I honestly don’t think there‘s a Fire Emblem mascot, but that’s a different story), G&W, Pit, and to a lesser degree Jigglypuff, it helps that she’s been around for a long time at this point (15 years).

 

[Sucumbio]

So, what do y'all think about Zero Suit Samus?

Even if she's unnecessary, I think she's here to stay.

Yes, please! and add Zero Mission to GBA NSO please Nintendo!

 

[Laniv]

So, what do y'all think about Zero Suit Samus?

Even if she's unnecessary, I think she's here to stay.

If it were up to me, she'd be first on the chopping block if I had to cut a Metroid character. Keyword if I had to.

Like, she's like Sheik. It'd be weird to see her gone.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

While I don’t think that I would’ve come up with her as a playable fighter, Zero Suit Samus is fun to play as, and I’d be cool with her staying. Like with Captain Falcon, Ness, Sheik, Falco, Marth (I honestly don’t think there‘s a Fire Emblem mascot, but that’s a different story), G&W, Pit, and to a lesser degree Jigglypuff, it helps that she’s been around for a long time at this point (15 years).

Fire Emblem's mascot is Anna.

I'm surprised she doesnt have an Assist trophy spot for her honestly.
I would say she should be playable given her versatility as a fighter and because she shows up in most games so she has that iconagrophy going for her... But i know people are sick of Fire emblem getting so many characters.

 

[SPEN18]

I don't think there's any strong reason to keep ZSS.
She was only added initially (1) to give the Metroid series another rep at a time when the other big names in the series weren't deemed feasible and (2) to add another transform gimmick. Then there is also potentially good timing with Zero Mission.
None of her primary reasons for being added are relevant anymore, and I don't think adding the transform gimmick back onto Samus is the way to go, so at this point she just sticks out like a sore thumb as an outdated concept.
There are enough options now to fill out the Metroid roster without ZSS, and honestly most choices (including both the existing ones in DS/Ridley and potential newcomers like Raven Beak) do a better job of representing the series than an alternate Samus which, while unique, pretty much only represents a dimension of the character that is rarely relevant in actual Metroid gameplay.

 

[Opossum]

Fire Emblem's mascot is Anna.

I'm surprised she doesnt have an Assist trophy spot for her honestly.
I would say she should be playable given her versatility as a fighter and because she shows up in most games so she has that iconagrophy going for her... But i know people are sick of Fire emblem getting so many characters.

Genuinely don't get how people can say Anna's the mascot when for the vast majority of the series she's little more than an easter egg.

The mascot is the face of the series. Anna...isn't that. She's become a lot more prominent post-Awakening, but Marth is absolutely the mascot and face of the franchise. For all intents and purposes he is Fire Emblem.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Anna is as much of a mascot as Jack Frost from SMT or Cid from Final Fantasy.

So like... Not really.

 

[osby]

Anna is as much of a mascot as Jack Frost from SMT or Cid from Final Fantasy.

So like... Not really.

I'd actually argue that Jack Frost is the mascot of SMT, along with ATLUS as a whole. However, it's not a prominent character in most games, with story-relevant demons and protagonists representing individual games in most situations.

A more apt comparison might've been Stephen.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'd actually argue that Jack Frost is the mascot of SMT, along with ATLUS as a whole. However, it's not a prominent character in most games, with story-relevant demons and protagonists representing individual games in most situations.

A more apt comparison might've been Stephen.

Who is Stephen?

 

[osby]

Who is Stephen?

A recurring NPC (based on Stephen Hawking) in SMT, who developed the Demon Summoning Program and appears in most mainline games in varying levels of importance.

I likened him to Anna because while he has more appearances under his belt than any singular protagonist, nobody would try to argue that he's a mascot character or should be prioritized over them in crossovers.

 

[Speed Weed]

Yeah I always kind of got the feeling that a lot of the Anna support comes from people unfamiliar with Fire Emblem

 

[osby]

I think Marth is one of the characters that are treated as (unjustly) replaceable the most by this fandom.* A lot of it seems to stem from a mix of not knowing Fire Emblem enough and a sentiment that FE newcomers will just stop if Sakurai can make up his mind on a character that actually represents the series.

*The close second is Pokemon Trainer, as a lot of people think any random selection of three Pokemon can easily replace Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard without caring about gameplay or recognizability.

 

[Arcanir]

When it comes to ZSS I think it'd just come down to how they prioritize her. In how Metroid itself would be handled I'd imagine she'd be behind Samus and Ridley, they're more prominent characters and now that Ridley has a working template for the team he probably doesn't have to worry about his biggest barrier to inclusion keeping him out. Dark Samus is more prominent as a major villain in the Prime subseries, but she's also a clone and as we've seen historically, they usually tend to be low priority, and with ZSS I don't think it would be any different.

In terms of the rest of the cast it's more up for debate. Sure, she wouldn't be prioritized over say, the core Mario cast, but she is still a character with a history in Smash and is a liked moveset and that is a reason the team could consider trying to keep her similar to the aforementioned Sheik. So, she may be prioritized over other characters, and if enough time remains, she stays on the roster.

Of course, this is hypothetical as I don't know how the Smash team would truly approach the situation, but I don't think she'd immediately be cut outright. She just may depend on how much time they have and what they can do with it.

 

[fogbadge]

So, what do y'all think about Zero Suit Samus?

Even if she's unnecessary, I think she's here to stay.

certainly feels in like her inclusion in hindsight is a bit random. even with sakurai's reasoning. although i certainly think after being in three out of five games she aint leaving

 

[Nabbitfan730]

On a side note, is anyone attending Super Smash Con this year?

 

[Geno Boost]

So, what do y'all think about Zero Suit Samus?

Even if she's unnecessary, I think she's here to stay.

Not fan of having the same character multiple times just like
But at least she is unique

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I do think people are underestimating how important being a "Smash mainstay" can be. I know a lot of people don't give it much weight, but I truly believe the developers do. At the end of the day, Smash is a fighting game, and fighting games tend to honor seniority. Smash even honors it more than most. Zero Suit Samus is also a popular character in regards to their playstyle. She provides a gameplay niche that only she can give.

Personally, I'd imagine the developers see things like this.

> = >>>

Samus is never leaving. Now that Ridley's in, I think he's going to be a mainstay. I think Zero Suit Samus is considered a mainstay enough to be a priority and... I think people are massively overrating Dark Samus. She's better franchise representation on paper, sure. But she's also a last minute echo and those are always easy fat to trim. Granted, she's a very popular echo (and I love her). Smash's developers don't see franchise representation the same way a lot of fans do. Characters don't get cut due to becoming worse representation retroactively. The only time I can think it might have happened was Toon Link replacing Young Link and even then I'm not sure if that really counts. If Zero Suit Samus was going to leave, it would have been during Smash 4.

That aside, I personally think Metroid just isn't going to get another newcomer. Raven Beak would be rad as hell, but I'm very confident he isn't happening. No other characters seem remotely likely unless Sylux fulfills his almost twenty year promise. As a Metroid fan, I'm just happy we got this far, lol. I can't see it getting better than getting Samus, the two biggest (heh) villains that can feasibly work and then a bonus Samus.